[beverley thomson]

Thanks

will put in my calendar. Yes I was pleased as in the ring and holding area is also closer to equipment than we were getting before.

have a show this weekend what do you suggest

Beverley

[beverley thomson]

One question what time zone are you in so i csn work out nz time

[beverley thomson]

Many thanks. Love the shifts in thinking although still getting my head around them. Thanks for answering all my questions while I tried to get things straight.

Beverley

[beverley thomson]

Has the last live replay link been posted yet.

[beverley thomson]

Okay i will try and use ability vs skill to deferientate . The bit i am struggling with is whether you stay at the same level or introduce difficulty and when you introduce the next steps. With a skill you start to ontroduce difficulty as dog understands the skill with times of easy as well. Here i am not sure when to add on the next step when trying to reprogramme brain.lots of thrse games we have done very similar things previously not quite the same. For example at shows over last 12 months and before veloz gets to do shadow handling, find tteat in towel, mat work two toy pattern games beside ring so he is quite comfortable doing this. We also do this alot when ever we go out. I realise a few tweaks but how do i know when we should add the next steps of doing it in a holding area if it is not when he is comfortable doing it other places. I realise we need to cement this and it may take month but withoit an idea of how or when to progress then we will never move any further. So this was where my question about progression came from. So progression in terms of locations for things like where practise snuffle mat and difficulty for plate game ie when put a second jump onto picture etc.

Okay yes we play the two toy game alot with veloz . I suppose i have been more focused on the plate pattern game as that was new and i like the way you used it in the ring so was thinking of how to use toy in that sense. But will go back to the two toy game for potentisl use in holding area.

Yes i am not sure why i was so slow with treats i think treats were abit hatd and veliz was taking a while to chew them.

I undersyand dogs are good on context but if i dont understand differen es in concept i M not dure how veloz can. When added a verbal cue for plate or mat success rate went way up for all my dogs.

[beverley thomson]

Firstly I would like to say how much I have appreciated the lives- they have added so much clarity. Loved the comment about importance of state of mind with rest. I have always used a go sniff cue when walking on casual walk this means the walk is yours – speed, sniffing, direction as feel it gives clarity as to when they need to walk with me and when the walk is theirs.

When practicing Modulating Emotions, please use food for the Relaxation part of the game. It’s not just about cueing the dog to lay down–that’s a skill, not about shifting the internal state.
yes sorry I picked that up when re checked instructions and after watching on of the lives and did it for the next sessions.

Sorry I didnt mean I wasnt doing these things in other locations- we are doing the relaxation work daily plus most of the games as part of the day somewhere. Most of the time around house or front lawn as weather has been shocking. But at least twice a week off the property and at least once a week some where else on my property. I only put up videos of where challeneges happening or first sessions. have put some other videos bottom of this post

Questions
I am struggling with difference between training a skill and developing resiliance. isnt resiliance a skill also as we want to develop it even if it takes much longer. I think I understand ….then my training brain takes over. I do understand about the relaxation on mat, snuffle game and even the shadow handling but struggle when it comes to incorporating the pattern game into the agility training
really like the idea of introducing the plate game into the agility context but havent my head around the mechanics

For both the mat plus toy and plate game- how does the dog know what is wanted if you dont give a cue( verbal or body) . My dogs are used to playing tug release when you sit or down game continues so they immediately offer this when playing tug and ask for a release (or stop the tugging) rather than go to the mat see video. My dogs are used to ignoring food in a dish on the ground around agility equipment so how do they know they can go to dish if no cue- many of my cues are verbal. But if I use a verbal then it is a trained skill.. sorry I know I over think things but I want to get the mechanics right

Next question – how is the best way to introduce toys into pattern games

Next question- how do we know when to progress things in addition to keeping up the easy stuff like in the living area or is that turning it into a skill again..

Trying to make sure I understand so that we can progress in the longer term as if I have managed the concepts then veloz will manage.

FYI Attached some videos of some of our sessions at local park. Live rural so not alot of activity locally.

plate pattern work at local park

treat toss park

shadow handling local park

a small amount of find my face I havent been doing alot of this

[beverley thomson]

Can you visit parks or other busier areas to practice some of the games? Other than trials?
I have been doing these games in multiple places – live rural so not many busy places. The reality is that he doesnt struggle most places- park with other dogs, carparks. The struggle comes when agility equipment
My order for easeis
home inside
homeoutside no equipment
local park
carpark
me working another dog
then
agility equipment my place
agi;lity equipment other places
agility equipment friends (hard at moment as most people not training as too wet)
at an agility competition
next to a ring at agility

then big step up to next
me running another dog at agility (this is hard as needs a another person who can work him)
going into holding area
going into ring
doing agility in ring

I have been doing the local park , other places and around equipment at least daily since early on. Shadow handling has always been part of our regular rountine and some mat work. I thought he did well next to the ring when it was running- only issue was when a dog that can be pushy came out of the ring and I moved Veloz to be safe – video only of rug and snuffle but also did shadow handling, the plate pattern game and just lying on the mat.
So decided to try the next one down which was enter the holding area when no dogs running.
I went in with the intention of doing shadow handling ( I knew find my face would be too hard) as this is my standard for all my dogs in holding area. He was struggling so just asked for some focus work . I couldnt do snuffle or plate game in holding area as involve potential food on ground. Then I asked for toy interaction- which I know hasnt been part of calm picture but I can use a toy in the ring and holding area but no food in ring and limited in holding area. My toy play has a pattern to it outside the area – look at me i toss toy go get toy, repeat. So I suppose I was looking at whether I could develop a pattern game equivalent of calmness with a toy.

Here is the next exercise- I cut the duration and just included the transitions. This is bvery similar to what we have done before so he understood what was happening fast. Have been practising this.

[beverley thomson]

I went to a show this weekend with my other dogs.
Took Veloz and did some mat , snuffle, pattern games and shadow handling beside the ring – didnt get all on video but here is some bits from three different sessions – he was reasonably focused as is typical.

then I took him into the holding area- it is over 12 months since we have had him this close- he knows the difference even though the ring wasnt running at the time. I had to work hard to get focus- not great video as I couldnt put camera where would like so also did more at a greater distance . I also brought out a toy as can have a toy in ring area but not food. It is hard to practice this as not really supposed to be in this area although have two ribbon trials next month where have entered with intention of just doing this.

[beverley thomson]

Sorry.

Wasnt really a question more looking for your views on reward value in the live discussion as to whether when the reward value is high the added arousal due to the reward can be counterproductive in a dog that is already struggling with arousal- whether this be super exciting food or a high value toy.

But not important just something I have been thinking about. so wondered if you had any thoughts.

[beverley thomson]

Yes I dont run alot as physically running is hard especially if ground is slippery , grass is long or I have to turn alot. When I was training Veloz when he was young I was not mobile so most of his early training was with verbals and sends and perhaps in hindsight that was a mistake allthough I am not sure what the alternative was to keep an energetic heading dog going over that 12 month period. Generally I use the outside arm when I am asking for a backside or turning for a wrap – so yes I did that alot when I was doing the send to jump and wrap back to the plate. I do stuff up wand use the wrong arm sometimeshen I get unsure or am thinking about the dog rather than me. Running a course I tend to try and focus on me and then the dog usually gets the right cues.

Ha I cant act to save myself I over think to much. When I do find my face elsewhere I use a disconnect from watching the dog and with Veloz I then get a tip of the head around from the side and a look as if to say get your act in to gear(Fusion dives between my legs and looks up at me). In agility I tend to get a disconnect from the dog if I forget to give them a cue and loose them. So I suppose I was working on the same thing here- a movement of the head so I could no longer see him. I thought Veloz was reading it quite well in that I was getting a come in and the same look- I think I was reluctant to make it too dramatic as I know the worse the dissconnect the more aggressive his bounce. Normally if we lose connection he bounces me or goes off course. But am happy to accept he is unsure of what is happenng when I am tryng this. I think we might put this in the too hard basket at the moment.

We went out and enjoyed the first fine sunny day for weeks yesterday. I was still fighting a chest infection and had trained my other two dogs so yes there was less running than normally but I felt it was a much happier session. All my dogs including Veloz are used to working well away from me and I set up the curve so I could use a send. I did use the towel to give Veloz something to do while I caught my breath. Hopefully I will be over this infection soon so you can see what happens when I move- not much different except I can target where I get to and get more turns in.

[beverley thomson]

Okay so i am confused. I agree that when i am connected and moving we get fewer issues. This is why when we were competing almost always the issue happened at the end of the run apart from his first few competition runs. Usually we have more jumps and space but most places are under water at the moment.

But isnt find my face when you disconnect which is why i was resistent to try it. The video of the disconnect was two separate attempts so wasnt that long. If i can keep him slightly in the zone shadoe handling or towel works. If i dont then get a meltdown or a freeze. I am not sure how to handle the find my face as got a nip today when did three obstacles in a line then find my face with towel around. He is doing good on finding my face but immediately following this is the issue. I am not sure how to build this so we dont create a loop disconnect check in then charge.

As soon as i changed to handing food he settled more on the mat but the intensely watching me is not changing i thoight he needed to relax rather than being fixated on food on my hand.

Clomipraminehydrochloride 10 mg twice a day. He weighs 20kg.

[beverley thomson]

maybe it would be possible to post links in class outline

[beverley thomson]

Hi.

Thanks for that
Shadow handling is something we do alot of as i use it to get him and me connected and when he was younger and getting hyped in environment it took him out of it. Now it is something we have fun with so do as a fun game together.

Find my face we do regularly at least once a week – virtually never around equipment as the couple of times i tried it it resulted in a full meltdown.

Will try with the one bowl again as may have a stronger foundation to go to the bowl having done the pattern game.
he was much bettere with this than I expected- video not great

The stroking and handling is reasonably new and i started because he was seeking it out. Most of time he doesnt want and i dont do. but when he gets a certain look on the eyes and a start of a freeze i have found a stroke then i get a breath release and then he can offer behaviours again. I also find in training or around the ring what tricks he can offer is a good indication of how much the pressure is building. Usually i would stop immediately. The look tells me he is either about to shut down or explode. This is why i brought out the towel to try and stop him from shutting down. But am happy to go back to not touching.

here is what happened no touch or other intervention. Just did twice as didnt want to push it

Mat work I am still not getting relax behaviour just intense waiting for the treat even after he has had dinner and I am using dry kibble same as dinner. wondered whether should do when he is tired and use a stroke so get relax behaviour practised. short piece of last session much same at start and end.

I didnt get video of all training today but apart from when trying to get find my face rest of the time he was much more relaxed and focused even though did more obstacles, faster and in a different place. am hoping to do a proper training session tomorrow so will see how that goes with other people and dogs around.

shows- here usually have to book six weeks ahead so I have not got veloz entered into anything currently- am hoping to enter end of november with just a plant to go in on lead, play and leave without leaving the startline. I will be going to a couple of shows in meantime where will practise around the ring but will not be entered.

Over all I am seeing a change in his staying more relaxed. I am hoping this may continue.

The other question I have is re diet and mediaction. I have heard diet in terms of protein and enery can make a difference in some dogs but find it difficult to find any info here- do you have any Also we put him on chorocalm ? six months ago and it definitely changed his personality in that he is more relaxed around home- it was the only option I found here but was wondering whether other drugs around that woukkd be better – so I can find out whether avaiale in NZ- we dont seem to have many drug options or knowledge re drugs.

• This reply was modified 2 years, 6 months ago by beverley thomson. Reason: extra info

[beverley thomson]

Answers to your questions in above posts.

Weather here has been horrible so mainly stuff inside and I have been crock.

Shadow handling
This is something we have done alot of – forgot lead and too cold to stop.

i then did close to equipment- was pleased with this as have struggled with this at times

pattern game
I wasnt sure whether I was supposed to but felt he was ready with to do with equipment present in a low environment

That was wed and thursday.

Today I decided to try find my face around agility equipment after yesterdays live. I tried to keep it low key. First I took the pattern game a little further I wanted to see whether he would settle back after he had done a few jumps. Then also did a low key find my face he did well and then lost it. Points I liked was he didnt completely lose it – as it it was less intense and stopped faster. My feeling was to cut the energy as I now he struggles with the disconnect even though we have done it alot with tracy. So I mixed up the exercises and brought out the snuffle mat ( I cut the video of the snuffling and just left start and finish). then I started to introduce a little shadow handling so that the disconnect was immediately followed by a behaviour he understands. At the time it felt like a good idea and seemed to work well but then wondered. I was also thinking if I could create this discionnect shadow that I can create a better finish behaviour. sorry video is long but felt overall picture of how different bits worked together was more important than the individual.

This is starting to feel like a tiny prick of light in tunnel as his behaviour is reducing even if very low level of stimulants.

mat behaviour – sorry no video will try and get tonight. even quietly and slowly handling to him he isnt relaxing. I can get him to relax if he is tired and I stroke but as soon as food around he is just alert watching for any sign of food- even when he has had dinner and I use more of his dinner. My dogs all see food as rewarding.

Thanks

[beverley thomson]

Hi

I think it is too early to tell with the snuffle mats. I think it will but I think it will take time as he swings very fast.

The not moving is not totally a concuss thought- it is wet and long grass and I am not completely sound so tend to move less when footing poorer- am in gumboots as water level quite high. At a show I would have proper shoes on but then get wet feet. In addition i have been trying to keep things low level and that is easier to do if I move less. In the ring I am often way behind so he is used to me staying out of the way and sending I can hardly ever get to where I need to be so my body cues are horrible. I am hoping to set up some bigger more spread out courses if the rain stops for more than 24 hours and then I will move more.

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