[beverley thomson]

Yes I dont run alot as physically running is hard especially if ground is slippery , grass is long or I have to turn alot. When I was training Veloz when he was young I was not mobile so most of his early training was with verbals and sends and perhaps in hindsight that was a mistake allthough I am not sure what the alternative was to keep an energetic heading dog going over that 12 month period. Generally I use the outside arm when I am asking for a backside or turning for a wrap – so yes I did that alot when I was doing the send to jump and wrap back to the plate. I do stuff up wand use the wrong arm sometimeshen I get unsure or am thinking about the dog rather than me. Running a course I tend to try and focus on me and then the dog usually gets the right cues.

Ha I cant act to save myself I over think to much. When I do find my face elsewhere I use a disconnect from watching the dog and with Veloz I then get a tip of the head around from the side and a look as if to say get your act in to gear(Fusion dives between my legs and looks up at me). In agility I tend to get a disconnect from the dog if I forget to give them a cue and loose them. So I suppose I was working on the same thing here- a movement of the head so I could no longer see him. I thought Veloz was reading it quite well in that I was getting a come in and the same look- I think I was reluctant to make it too dramatic as I know the worse the dissconnect the more aggressive his bounce. Normally if we lose connection he bounces me or goes off course. But am happy to accept he is unsure of what is happenng when I am tryng this. I think we might put this in the too hard basket at the moment.

We went out and enjoyed the first fine sunny day for weeks yesterday. I was still fighting a chest infection and had trained my other two dogs so yes there was less running than normally but I felt it was a much happier session. All my dogs including Veloz are used to working well away from me and I set up the curve so I could use a send. I did use the towel to give Veloz something to do while I caught my breath. Hopefully I will be over this infection soon so you can see what happens when I move- not much different except I can target where I get to and get more turns in.

[beverley thomson]

Okay so i am confused. I agree that when i am connected and moving we get fewer issues. This is why when we were competing almost always the issue happened at the end of the run apart from his first few competition runs. Usually we have more jumps and space but most places are under water at the moment.

But isnt find my face when you disconnect which is why i was resistent to try it. The video of the disconnect was two separate attempts so wasnt that long. If i can keep him slightly in the zone shadoe handling or towel works. If i dont then get a meltdown or a freeze. I am not sure how to handle the find my face as got a nip today when did three obstacles in a line then find my face with towel around. He is doing good on finding my face but immediately following this is the issue. I am not sure how to build this so we dont create a loop disconnect check in then charge.

As soon as i changed to handing food he settled more on the mat but the intensely watching me is not changing i thoight he needed to relax rather than being fixated on food on my hand.

Clomipraminehydrochloride 10 mg twice a day. He weighs 20kg.

[beverley thomson]

maybe it would be possible to post links in class outline

[beverley thomson]

Hi.

Thanks for that
Shadow handling is something we do alot of as i use it to get him and me connected and when he was younger and getting hyped in environment it took him out of it. Now it is something we have fun with so do as a fun game together.

Find my face we do regularly at least once a week – virtually never around equipment as the couple of times i tried it it resulted in a full meltdown.

Will try with the one bowl again as may have a stronger foundation to go to the bowl having done the pattern game.
he was much bettere with this than I expected- video not great

The stroking and handling is reasonably new and i started because he was seeking it out. Most of time he doesnt want and i dont do. but when he gets a certain look on the eyes and a start of a freeze i have found a stroke then i get a breath release and then he can offer behaviours again. I also find in training or around the ring what tricks he can offer is a good indication of how much the pressure is building. Usually i would stop immediately. The look tells me he is either about to shut down or explode. This is why i brought out the towel to try and stop him from shutting down. But am happy to go back to not touching.

here is what happened no touch or other intervention. Just did twice as didnt want to push it

Mat work I am still not getting relax behaviour just intense waiting for the treat even after he has had dinner and I am using dry kibble same as dinner. wondered whether should do when he is tired and use a stroke so get relax behaviour practised. short piece of last session much same at start and end.

I didnt get video of all training today but apart from when trying to get find my face rest of the time he was much more relaxed and focused even though did more obstacles, faster and in a different place. am hoping to do a proper training session tomorrow so will see how that goes with other people and dogs around.

shows- here usually have to book six weeks ahead so I have not got veloz entered into anything currently- am hoping to enter end of november with just a plant to go in on lead, play and leave without leaving the startline. I will be going to a couple of shows in meantime where will practise around the ring but will not be entered.

Over all I am seeing a change in his staying more relaxed. I am hoping this may continue.

The other question I have is re diet and mediaction. I have heard diet in terms of protein and enery can make a difference in some dogs but find it difficult to find any info here- do you have any Also we put him on chorocalm ? six months ago and it definitely changed his personality in that he is more relaxed around home- it was the only option I found here but was wondering whether other drugs around that woukkd be better – so I can find out whether avaiale in NZ- we dont seem to have many drug options or knowledge re drugs.

• This reply was modified 2 years, 8 months ago by beverley thomson. Reason: extra info

[beverley thomson]

Answers to your questions in above posts.

Weather here has been horrible so mainly stuff inside and I have been crock.

Shadow handling
This is something we have done alot of – forgot lead and too cold to stop.

i then did close to equipment- was pleased with this as have struggled with this at times

pattern game
I wasnt sure whether I was supposed to but felt he was ready with to do with equipment present in a low environment

That was wed and thursday.

Today I decided to try find my face around agility equipment after yesterdays live. I tried to keep it low key. First I took the pattern game a little further I wanted to see whether he would settle back after he had done a few jumps. Then also did a low key find my face he did well and then lost it. Points I liked was he didnt completely lose it – as it it was less intense and stopped faster. My feeling was to cut the energy as I now he struggles with the disconnect even though we have done it alot with tracy. So I mixed up the exercises and brought out the snuffle mat ( I cut the video of the snuffling and just left start and finish). then I started to introduce a little shadow handling so that the disconnect was immediately followed by a behaviour he understands. At the time it felt like a good idea and seemed to work well but then wondered. I was also thinking if I could create this discionnect shadow that I can create a better finish behaviour. sorry video is long but felt overall picture of how different bits worked together was more important than the individual.

This is starting to feel like a tiny prick of light in tunnel as his behaviour is reducing even if very low level of stimulants.

mat behaviour – sorry no video will try and get tonight. even quietly and slowly handling to him he isnt relaxing. I can get him to relax if he is tired and I stroke but as soon as food around he is just alert watching for any sign of food- even when he has had dinner and I use more of his dinner. My dogs all see food as rewarding.

Thanks

[beverley thomson]

Hi

I think it is too early to tell with the snuffle mats. I think it will but I think it will take time as he swings very fast.

The not moving is not totally a concuss thought- it is wet and long grass and I am not completely sound so tend to move less when footing poorer- am in gumboots as water level quite high. At a show I would have proper shoes on but then get wet feet. In addition i have been trying to keep things low level and that is easier to do if I move less. In the ring I am often way behind so he is used to me staying out of the way and sending I can hardly ever get to where I need to be so my body cues are horrible. I am hoping to set up some bigger more spread out courses if the rain stops for more than 24 hours and then I will move more.

[beverley thomson]

Post prior to this had my training videos including snuffle mat plus training

below is second session of these at a different location as I go there once or twice a week to teach and train my dogs in an area big enougn to set up course so high excitment site

two plates in one of my training places- off site with lots of dog noise and dogs close so higher value than my place.

training plus towel again at high excitment training area

• This reply was modified 2 years, 9 months ago by beverley thomson.

[beverley thomson]

Firstly look afyer yourself get well before worrying about us.

Listened to live today really sorry tonhave missed it as lots of insights. Due to time differences i am teaching at that time it is early afternoon here. Is it possible to submit follow up questions to be answered in next live as lots kf things fell into place when you were explaining things. I need to go back and wTch again. I found it intetesting when you talked about some dogs needing movementsome need stationaru to help reduce arousal. I have always found veliz does better with movement or a job that is well understood. I am even more convinced that veloz sees the finish as a disconnect in the same way as if he makes a mistake. Ithink that if we could get a release or a settle behaviour at the end it would help. So was very interested in how you were talking about using the snuffle mat .
The other question i still havent got the snuffle/towel wuite right. I have been adding large numbers of treats a vouple of times and realise now should have been putting a smaller number and reloading more times. Amazing what you can miss even when you think you have read and watched carefully.

I have been doing with my youngster she struggles with these exercises more than veloz does which i found interesting.

Get well soon

[beverley thomson]

thanks.

Normally I would edit my videos down but not sure how best to edit videos for these – can you give someidea of what you want to see

here is my face – we have played this before but not as often as should.

Here is the plate with two plates in a slightly different place but still neutral

Here is my game with towel and abit of training. First sessions too long as I couldnt hear timer. sorry so long but with multiple time points

[beverley thomson]

Thanks

The treats in the towel isnt really new to him so it is a behaviour he enjoys already. I think 2 min might be too long so I will start with a shorter training time and see how it goes. I think he likes it because even though it is a calm exercise it still involves movement and thinking.

Sorry I misunderstood I thought it was multibowls. Can do in training space- should I do in a range of places as we train a number of places.

Here is our food toss game- he was distracted in this and treats were rolling abit, also went too long so at the end on step 2 I went back to step one so finished with a little focus. I do think he was having some confusion as previous this exercise I havent asked for a look at me just a turn back to me. This bit of confusion lead to a little shut down. Also he finds a look at me quite stressful as use of eye is a strong trait developed for in these dogs. again full session video

ps there are alot of working spots- and difficult to find time to look at all any suggestions on who best to follow for simialr dogs or dogs that get zoomies or obstacle focused in the ring just so I can look at how others are handling things

• This reply was modified 2 years, 9 months ago by beverley thomson.

[beverley thomson]

Sitting beside him didnt reduce his energy but think it will over time. I notice a difference with time of the day too.

below first attempts at the two exercises. will keep working on these but recorded so have a baseline.

I havent got a snuffle mat but will get one after next week e3nd. In the mean time I used a towel in a pile with treats in it. Actually just used his dinner as he works well for any value treat – the only time a high value treat is needed is when he is is right on the edge of shutting down. i wasnt surproised he understood really fast what was needed as do alot with food scatters and kibble in boxes of screwed up paper so concept similar.
so this is first attempt – basically a baseline. I didnt edit video – basically quite consistent thru out.

I have done pattern games before with previous dogs but not wirth veloz . Probably here still a few too many distractions with lambs just out of camera shot. I made a few mistakes I kept forgetting to wait for the look and he anticipated a few times. He did find the control of this quite hard. again didnt edit video

Beverley

[beverley thomson]

Many thanks i kbew there was something not right with mat work but couldntvwork out whatthese are two games i havent played. But can see why they would help.

Beverley

[beverley thomson]

try attempt number 4. We are havng storms here and internet and power keep going. lots of thunder and most of ground under water.

am hopintg videos will load this time.

answers to questions.
partly because the lead and collar become associated with the stress of going into the agility ring – as rest time he is in a harness. I styopped doing this and worked on lead and collar around an agility ring separately. He hasnt been in the ring for 12 months so not sure what would happen currently naround the ring and equipment i can now walk on lead and get listening behaviour. However, the removal of the lead is still not there- I get a shut down but am continuing to work on this at home with just lead on and off with lots of rewards. I can now tka eit off with minimal shutdown if I am sitting but with me standing in presence of adility equipment still not there. Interestingly taking his collar when he has got himself worked up often I feel a release- same thing happens if I give him a toy. Often if he gets stressed before an agility run he will actually press his head into me and his besty runs were when I did this just before he ran

I totally agree and am not sure how to stop that shift in arousal.

To start with it happened when every a break in flow- so potential triggers included me stopping, tight workm ie wraps, a bar down, if I was too far behind , unsure where to go. We worked on improving verbals, did a lot of wrap work in very short sessions breaking it right down, in the ring I did short straight line courses and gradually built it up. started these on familar grounds, strange places and then into shows. I carried a toy so that i had something he could grab and put the get the toy on command. Basically eliminated all except at the end of the runs. Worked hard on getting a sit at the end as if I can break his we are stopping charge then it changed the arousal. I dont really like the sit as it is a behaviour he struggles with in arousal- my other dogs I have a bag at the end that they go to but with veloz we managed to poison this. H
E WILL GO -TO- A BAG NO TOUBLE ANY-+Where but around agility gear. At shows he is relaxed apart from when I am running another dog or when I go to enter the ring to finish

I try not to react to bars or offcourses with any of my dogs as find these mistakes tend to go as they get confident. My feeling is they are signs of my cues or miscommunication or environmental I work with all my dogs on trying to keep the flow as they all get stressed with mistakes.

I know that the triggers include- tight work especially if not long lines in between, barking dogs, late cues, confusion, me running other dogs, lack of training (my dogs do better more work) mistakes (they know when bars come down or if they go one way and I am not where they expect) stopping, strange places. I try to avoid these and work thru individually. Lately weather has been so bad so all dogs stir crazy and limited ground not under water so lack of exercise so Veloz behaviour worse they normal. I wouldnt normally do any agility training with him withoout being able to do some long lines first to get him in the zone. but did the below session in literally the 4 minutes between the thunderstorms. I think the thunder raised arousal.
I was surprised how long he too to settle normal he physical settles as soon as I hold him but metal obviously takes slightly longer. When take the collar at the end of a run often feel him release

training and recovery time was long here. perhaps because too much thunder

mat work

[beverley thomson]

Sorry i realise you asked us not to post before you answered the previous pist so there are two posts here above and this one.

Re exercise two. It depends on what measuring and behaviour.
If veliz shuts down this is less common it takes longer to recover and i usually intervene by asking for a different behaviour or sitting beside him and then i usually get a head pushed into be asking for a stroke. The overarousal the behaviour disappearance deoends on how hjgh he goes usually in training i often manage to stop before he sctually explodes. In the ring the behaviour stops as soon as i break it. In a strange place if it happens i get one bounce a small circle and then a sit or a come into me. Once this happens very quickly i get a dog who is responsive to tricks. I do use trick behaviours to get an idea of where his head is some tricks he can do while he is still relatively high eg a spin a nose touch intensity tells me where he is a sit is near the bottom. If i bring out a toy the pressure goes down really fast and always if choice of bouncing me or grabbing a toy i am holding choice is a toy. I do wonder whether one of the reasons we still how a major issue at the end if the runs is that he is in the zone knows what he is doing and then it stops and the finish behaviours are not strong enougn. A sit at the end was working quite well as long as got it in early before break. But a sit requires him to be firther down so was thinking whether i needed to introduce one of his easier tricks. I did introduce a mat type behaviour but did it too early and poisoned it -it is very useful prior to start and he will actively seek it but at end he avoids.

Sorry was meant to be so long and wordy.
Basically the physical behaviour disappears fast with mental taking slightly longer.

Question re mat
I have always struggled to get true relaxation. My dogs actively seek the mat and lie on it. But they actively wait for the food to arrive rather than relax on the mat. I dont have this issue with other dogs i treat a mat behaviour. My youngster will stand up and move mat closer and then relie on it if she thinks the treats are too long in coming. My old boy stands up and then thumps himself down again. Veloz just stares at me and will lift a paw and then stands up and searches the mat. At shows he lies on a mat and is more relaxed than without it but still on alert.
I am unsure how to get them to actually relax as are waiting for treats do i treat more often or less do i ignore …. Value of treats doesnt matter although very high value they get impatient faster

[beverley thomson]

Walking on collar mix reasons. He is often on a harness that needs to be removed before entering the ring. He stresses alot about the act of removing the lead even though done alot of lead off on games with tracy this is amped up at a show. None of my dogs do i trust to walk nicely into the ring with me off lead especially when a another dog is still running or other major distractions. So veloz usually sit with him in holding ring when a finger on his collar and then walk into ring by collar. Not ideal but tgese days is least stressful for both of us.

Last video i dont think i said anything about tge bar going down as i try to ignore mistakes but he knew. Traing was about 4.5 minutes intotal but did some cuddles, play, walking around getting treats for calmnes, a little scatter feeding in the session. A fairly typical session these days with out the attack. Differences we have been very wet so alot less training he does better more training. Also was running late so did training class not agility before i trained him. He had had a run but no actual training. He hates it when he thinks he is missing out.

I realise it is complicated as none of my normal stuff has worked. Does this mean it is a lost cause and perhaps i should work my youngster who gets focused on running and jumping

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