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Ok, we’re back! And boy has Zippie gotten good at the Carry In / Set Down / Look at Mom. I’m so happy!
I didn’t have a lot of time to plan, but she did great. I started with Garbage Can on a chair and blanket draped over a chair. And a person wandered by so I put her in a chair – oops, bit too close but we recovered quickly. I was really proud of her decision at 1:19 and again at 2:32.
The whole session was a bit rushed because my friend had to go. We didn’t drill this a bunch of times, what you see is the whole session tho I trimmed out chair moving parts.
Hey Tracy!
I think I need to move to NC! I know Kama will find me a place to live, but from Hannah’s posts I see you have big bugs and spiders and ticks …. I don’t know if I can handle that … In the mean time I will look around for another place to take classes that will let me do front sides of jumps and extension lines. I haven’t been able to convince my current instructors to let me make small adjustments
The NADAC-focused school near me used to use more compulsion than I liked, but Oh, I just thought of some place I might be able to take private lessons. Altho that doesn’t help much with the ring crew Kryptonite. But maybe I can set up some group practices with friends to work on that in smaller pieces. Flyball class?!?! Well, you haven’t been wrong about anything else, so maybe I’ll try it.I have often thought that Zippie visiting ring crew was as much about avoiding pressure from me. Because she doesn’t really like people very much. But perhaps it doesn’t matter “why.” Do you think it would be useful to put other “weird” things in chairs? Big stuffed animal toys? (not that I have a lot of those either, I’m trying to think of ways to create this when I inevitably train alone to get to practice big open extension courses).
No new Kryptonite today because we didn’t run after all. Stuff happened as I was warming her up and I decided to scratch for the weekend. Zippie is fine, but people are really inconsiderate (had nothing to do with her or with FEO plans or anything like that).
Looking forward to the next games package on Monday! 🙂
BrendaOK.
(Brenda reminds herself that change is hard and she has to practice mechanics multiple times before she gets comfortable. And that Zippie notices mom’s discomfort, but she is fairly resilient and will hang in there with her mom. And “just like at home” is not really, because I’m not used to running with a toy in my hand.)My first run we had to cross the whole field to get to where I wanted my startline to be. I was mindful to wait for her to look at me before I cued her Pop and I was pretty happy with that, esp when we got close the first jump and she really did Pop and gave me great engagement after Leash Off. I didn’t imagine for a second that she’d wander off after the tunnel, and that was pretty deflating. I considered giving up agility and switching to online dating as a new hobby instead.
I think you’ll say that I should have gotten her more aroused – we should have jogged out across the field #hindsight and #willgetbetterwithpractice
Second run I think I was even more discombobulated juggling the leash, the toy, a last treat, and the startline right at the gate, but thank goodness easy straight line to the tunne—oh, guess not. But she recovered faster and did Tunnel Jump Jump then we ran to the exit. Ok, that was a little better.
3rd run I decided to carry her in vs figuring out what to do with the leash and the toy and only 2 hands (I realized in the moment that I was still holding her in place longer than I needed to once I set her down).
I think I lost her near the end (and only briefly) because long gentle curving lines are NOT WHAT WE PRACTICE EVER which is a huge pet peeve I’ll probably go to my grave with (and without a Q in Nov JWW). But that’s for another day.
I think in all 3 runs I could have led out, or taken a deep breath before starting as she wasn’t going anywhere, and I think I’ll try that tomorrow (taking a breath after leash off and allowing her to shake if she needs to). I think it may be a little easier tomorrow as the classes will be larger, and it won’t feel so rushed, and all the courses tomorrow I can start from the marked start line and do a big circle around to the exit.
I am really happy with the start line engagement tho, she’s really looking up at me and I love it!
Off to get a good nights sleep, see ya in the morning,
Brenda<<Remember to not keep cuing it – let her look away if she needs to, and wait for her to offer re-engaging before the next pop cue. >>
Yes! I do keep forgetting that.<< And resist any little voices in your head that might try for a Q 🙂 >>
Ugh, it’s killing me, just look at how nice and breezy the course is?!?! 🙂 🙂
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VXYwyVS9j_gQrjVaqDsYCQwYNO2huePA/view?usp=sharing
I’m thinking I will start at 11 or 12 and run to the end, carrying my leash with me, no need to have a toy.For Wild card. I’ll skip the section that has weave poles, run with the toy in my left keeping dog on left the whole way
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Tw_FDly5OUn3VtjRzuKhOnn18ZLcS_DF/view?usp=sharingFor Snooker a couple of turns but the tunnel makes them less complicated.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1B64RQaRV8DVp7PvVSXLRAokL6eeILYBd/view?usp=sharingI love getting course maps the night before via email. I don’t particularly obsess / worry but I do get them cemented in my memory pretty well.
<<And no one calls them VD because it makes me think of either Valentines Day or venereal disease LOL! >> And now I know your kryptonite!
Brenda
Hi Tracy,
I thought I would share our Cookie Free Pattern game to our start line from our crazy class today. I did remember to play higher energy Volume Dial (does anyone ever call them VD games?) before we entered the ring. And then our engaged walking pops. I still did gave cookies for the leash off ( and for the handling lesson that followed) so not truly cookie free, but getting there!I also had time to set down our cookies container (lid on) and do some VD and feed from hand, but that’s not really “kryptonite” if she sees me put it there…she did great, more value for working and food from hands.
We have a CPE trial Friday afternoon, we should talk FEO. I can run with a toy, and she will chase it a bit but it’s not a big “reward.” Do you want me to break it out and run to the exit right after the line up or after a few obstacles? Or after a difficult section? (I don’t plan to have any difficult handling but sometimes things don’t go per plan). Our first event is akin to Beg Speedstakes, nice and flowy I expect. Wildcard is a 9-10 obstacle course with modest discriminations, and Snooker is last. As I’m FEO-ing, I don’t think I have to follow snooker rules and will avoid funky handling.
My gut says I don’t want to restart after a reward break, since the toy isn’t really much of a reward, but I could give it a try on the last run of the day?I will rematch the Training in the Ring videos too.
BrendaGood Morning!
I like the Pop cue for all the reasons you mention. I have learned to really lower my criteria for this behavior, I hope that’s ok? – she often will bounce up and hit my hand, but if there are dogs near by or if she wasn’t ready or if the surface she’s on doesn’t seem right she won’t ‘pop’ all the way. That used to stress me out because I asked for something she didn’t do and now what… but I decided to pretty much reward / praise / carry on even a weight shift or sometimes I just get a chin lift effort. I take any effort as “good enough” and if she does *nothing* in response then I know she’s either really distracted or uncomfortable. But most times she gives at least a little bounce. I remembered during practice today that I needed to wait for engagement between cues, and that led to a better bounce!
I also tried to counter act Kryptonite (surprise pool of food odor) – and need feedback!
My thought was to have her play the very easiest Instant Focus game with food on the floor, then food she would need to run by. But my reset cookies (working alone) to get her to run by was not the best idea. What do you think of having a couple of foot targets / platforms to recall her back and forth (reward from hand) with crumbs on the floor X feet off the line between platforms? “easily controlled” food distractions – in a container? That would seem to be a big visual “cue”
Help! 🙂
BrendaHowdy!
Today’s topic is cookie-free pattern games.
<<Yes – perfect! And don’t be dismayed if the spins are slower at first or she thinks you are nuts LOL>>I am so glad you said this because YES she thinks I’m nuts. “Since when do we do spins while at momma’s side and moving?? The leash is getting tangled around my neck! and why is she leaving while I am still chewing?”
**background – I *have* cued Lefts while heeling on left and Rights while heeling on Right but both of us changing direction away from the reward station AND cuing a spin was making me think hard.
So I went back to my living room, and worked on spins at my side with cookie in hand an no leash to tangle just to give her the idea. I did try on both sides of me, but on one side it seemed weird to cue counter to her motion — if she is on my right and already turning tightly to her right to follow me from the reward station (yay!) and I cue a “left” she’s got to overcome that inertia, and while possible it felt like my verbal overriding the motion was asking a lot for what is supposed to be a confidence building game – although we did sort of get there?
I also tried Engaged Chill and our “Pop” move, just to experiment with different things.Thoughts?
BrendaHi!
<<It is not supposed to be a reward, just a pattern than predicts reward. So you don’t need to get engagement or try different things. Yo can cue the first spin as you move away – spin, spin, spin and then when she engages with you – run back to rewards. >>
<<So on the cookie-free pattern game reps, you can immediately cue the spin as you walk away, she does not have to offer engagement first. >>
<<For the cookie free pattern games, the action trick will replace the ‘get it’ cookie. So on a cookie pattern game, we start the pattern with the cookie toss – then the dog re-engages, then we toss the next cookie. So without a cookie – we start with the spin, for example – then wait for offered engagement, then do another spin. In. The early stages, after one or two tricks, go get a cookie (or pull it out of the pocket) so she still gets the primary reinforcement built in. >>Ok, let me see if I understand my mechanics of Cookie Free Pattern Games the way you’ve asked me to start. It’s a little like the Remote Reinforcement set up, and I’m thinking I should be doing this on leash at this time (so she doesn’t completely wander into the environment):
I’m at my Reward Station. I give one last cookie then set down the dish, and without waiting for engagement I cue a spin as I start to walk away from the reinforcement. When she re-engages I cue a second spin and either reward from pocket or go back to the reward station and restart. Over time ping pong the number of cued spins (while walking away from reinforcement) before going for primary reinforcement. And stick with the spins rather than trying different tricks because this is supposed to be a pattern.
These new dance steps are going to take a bit of practice without the dog so I want to be sure I understand.Alternate Cookie Free Pattern Game: step away and offer my hand for a sllooowww chin scratch. But if this is used to get to the line then it would need to be followed by volume dial to bring her UP before running. (this is partly why I was playing with quick chin scratches to be more arousing not calming in a go to the line context)
I may be over emphasizing the “while going to the line” aspect because we may decide that I carry her to the line and set her down in position. But I still need cookie free pattern games in my toolbox.
Kryptonite! I forgot to submit my Think Plan part!
Zippie’s most powerful Kryptonite, that can pull her completely out of whatever she was doing, is a single cookie left on the floor that she catches a whiff of mid-run. She will do a 180 midair to go back and find what she just smelled, and will be working really hard to find it, high energy sorting the scent puzzle until she gets it. By contrast she can run with me while there is an open dish of food in a chair that we placed there as her remote reinforcement, no problem. It’s the *discovery whiff* of a crumb midcourse that is kryptonite.
#2 – 4 is People she likes; an open, low energy room; poorly timed cuesFavorite tricks:
1) chasing tossed food
2) Lefts and Rights (except when she’s not ready, then these are slow)
3) “Pop” up on back legs (except when she’s not ready, then she might give just a weight shift which I do reward anyway)
4) “hey lady” tricks she initiates to get my attention, like tugging on her leash or moving into “find heel”Brenda
Good morning, thank you for all the clarification! I’m comfortable with knowing that I just need to jump in and try, get video and ask for help if I don’t really understand something. And I’m still not sure I cookie free pattern games 🙂 let me rewatch the lesson, read the notes and your feedback and I’ll ask follow up questions.
I also want to try some things with the slow pets and see what that looks like.
***subject change ***
I ran sequences with a toy today and I *can* do this in a trial (ha!), she does chase it, and the pattern we are creating of bite / get cookie is giving her something active to do outside the ring that she finds value in – but she initiates it to get my attention, I kinda look away as in a Find My Face game. I’m creating a little pushy-ness that I think is going to be good?Hi Tracy,
I tried a little cookie-free pattern games. As usual I’m stiff and awkward trying new things, and I worry that cueing tricks is not really a reward for engagement if food isn’t really available for the trick – so I run to the reward station frequently. And when I lost her I waited to see if she would choose to reengage…when it felt like it had gotten too weird I went into a pattern game With cookies.I was surprised how she seemed to like the 3 pets and stop pattern engaged chill game. I was too heavy at first but she forgave me and seemed to really be asking for more.
Interested in your thoughts and refinement on cookie-free pattern games and rewards as I get closer to planning an feo run.
BrendaHi!
CPE FEO – They call it FEO and DTIR (Declared training in the ring) – rules are pretty straight forward:Handler is allowed to have a reasonably sized silent toy/aid with them for use once their run has started (this toy must be approved by the Judge of record PRIOR to the start of the class to determine its eligibility, absolutely no food/scents/audible devices). The toy is NOT allowed to be used in the IN gate chute or prior to the previous dog leaving the ring.
So I could take her Instant Focus Prop in the ring, and I have a food pouch toy but we’ve never used it. I can try to power it up. I can also see if she has any interest in my fur-coat-scraps-on-a-lunge-whip toy – I’ve never tried it. I don’t want to plan to “stop and reward” mid-course if it’s not clearly rewarding to her – My toy play skills are not great / never developed and I don’t want more of “oh god mom is being weird” in the ring. But I’m willing to practice before the trial (Apr 24).
What already makes sense is to go in, remove leash, set her down, wait for offered engagement and then leave the ring to go to our cookie station. Or wait for offered engagement then do a few obstacles in a flow to the finish / exit. Nice thing about this plan is that I can pivot to it any time. I will mention in case it’s relevant – she already has a tendency to head for the exit if it’s getting a little stressy. I’m sure that’s common.I think I should plan FEO for any course that requires weaves and make up a course that clearly bypasses them without disjointed handling. There should be at least a couple of courses per day without weaves, or where weaves are totally optional in a gamblers type game. There will be no courses that require backsides / threadles at my level – except as handler-designed in gamblers / snooker type courses. I will probably have the course maps the night before. Also she jumps 12″ in CPE and the A-frame is lower – so already some less complexity there, yay!
Remembering what I have in my toolbox – I have all the skills / games on a white board, YES I will get them transferred to a note card. Memory cannot be trusted!
Leash off games are getting better – and by that I mean I’m remembering to cookie them more often! (Plus Zippie’s engagement is almost instantaneous even with a body shake) Instant Focus at new locations is coming along. I alternate between putting the cardboard down when she could be watching, and having it already in place.
I appreciate your suggestions of where I could/should be incorporating more games in class settings. The only reason I can think of that I didn’t already is because of my own nerves, even if slight – which is all the more reason I need to work on pulling tools out of tool box to get my own mental management sharper. You can see that that class has a fair amount of noise / chaos / confusion of run order blah blah blah — it’s all a good mental work out for me.
And I will plan a trip to the outdoor location she’s never been to next weekend – more of taking these games on the road, or do you want me to plan an FEO run type thing at this new location? (We will have Game Pack 3 by then as well).I want to share today’s training session. I don’t have a lot of questions for you, I just think you’ll find her bouncy step charming. Especially at the end – she anticipated leaving the cookies to go work to earn the cookies – it was really lovely leadership on her part – or at least that’s how I saw it.
At about 0:32 she got really distracted by an empty dog crate. Frankly by her behavior I wonder if there was pooling odor from something left behind from a nosework class. I chose to wait her out and set her up better the next time?
Brenda
<<so she couldn’t sit – no worries, though, she can choose her position. Your ‘come to my side’ is the line up cue so you don’t need to make the sit position a part of it at all. If she is engaged and doesn’t want to stay, that’s cool, she can stand. She was working as your teammate there and we never want to argue with our teammates 🙂 >>
This makes sense – I like it!<<So now, for planning purposes… what is coming up in the next 10 days or so in terms of training, trials, etc? We can start moving all this to different places 🙂 >>
I have weekly classes at our home facility, and a CPE trial there Apr 22-24. CPE we jump 12″ and they allow training in the ring with a toy (we don’t have any toy reinforcers), courses at our level are generally 10-13 obstacles, about half the classes without weaves (which is our bugaboo right now).
As far as getting to other places:
I have a weave workshop on Apr 14th, and I could rent practice time at a place she’s never been – we’d be alone and it’s outdoors.Today’s training class allowed a couple of times to come into the ring and set up just like we might at a trial. I completely forgot to do anything like a volume dial game. I got lots of leash off – offered engagement – cookie opportunities and tried to Ka-boom! fast out of any tight technical stuff (and I tried to balance not doing the technical stuff with showing the instructor I was listening to her instructions).
Retrying things – most often I don’t, but I do have a trained “Again Again Again” cue which means circle around get cookie and try again. I practice this on its own without waiting for an error and reward it in practice. I try to not use it in a trial, but sometimes the WantaQ monster gets the best of me.
Running by the aframe – she seems to do it when there is something drawing her eyes away. Like the full body shake, I’m noting it but not thinking too much into it yet. Usually it’s when I haven’t given her a great approach.
Here are 2 video clips from this morning.
I love it, thank you, gone are the wrap starts for now, yay, and I’ll dabble in more rears – she has been really seeming to enjoy those lately. Will see what we get.
And yes, on seminars, I am not really interested in fancy handling-focused seminars which is pretty much all that’s going on around my area. All about getting commitment to sends and stuff, nothing on motivation or engagement so at most I audit. (until maybe some time in July, wink wink)Today we had a chance to work in our home arena with just one other person in the building – historically a hard situation for her, but she was really great today. I’m just so thrilled, Tracy, with how the clarity of what we’re doing is resulting in a lot more handler focus and frankly just choosing to stick with me.
We worked on carry in leash off – I thought this went very well. Also some line up at my side games. There were 2 reps where I was off camera, oops. Trimmed out that part. In the past I haven’t asked for a sit at the start. But we’ve been practicing the line up games with a sit so that’s what I did today – on one rep she couldn’t do it, so I took that as a sign I had done too many in a row.
Looking forward to tomorrow!
BrendaWhat content rich feedback Tracy, thank you so much! (I’m bummed that I’m not finding time to keep up on other people’s threads too, might save you some repeating yourself-eek)
Yes – quiet environments are typically harder, so happy with the change I’m seeing.
Yes – happy to go down to 8 or 12 inches
Yes – will do Leash Off further from obstacles with cookies in pockets — I also need to work on leash off while holding her, I haven’t done that yet.Wraps – OMG thank you! I see so much “blah” lack of enthusiasm on wraps (from most of the dogs I’ve trained), which leads to looking around for something better to do and all the things we don’t want. AND YET my instructor has multiple wraps on every course in class, other instructor sees a wrap start as a “good thing” to get some “momentum going” as compared to a lead-out start. Every week I tell myself I need to work on wraps at home more, running away rewarding to power them up. But my goals are to get a Q in Nov JWW – LOL!
My instructors respect the heck out of you, so perhaps for now I run a modified course to have straighter lines for motivation, Tracy says so? 🙂 The other thought I have is that Zippie LOVES a rear-cross turn back on your path when the option presents itself – she reads it really well and seems to enjoy taking the leadership role vs me being on top of her. Thoughts?
Brenda
Tracy, thank you so much for posting during the middle of your day to give me some tips on my practice rental plan. <3 <3 Helped a lot!
You are going to be so proud of her! She has been at this facility before, but it’s been more than a year, and 3 times total including today. She NAILED the instant focus game, and many times she never took her eyes off me as I took off her leash! Not at first tho – she briefly thought about wandering off a couple of times and then remembered the game and came right back – I loved to see her think and choose! <3 And even tho the building was completely empty, she didn’t show the “sucked into the environment – can’t respond to anything” behaviors that stress me out. I made some mistakes in execution of a plan – but let’s get to the videos.
This was right as Zippie came into the building. I love her decision at 0:27, and while she had a full shake on the second leash off she was trying to hold eye contact, and then on the 3rd leash removal she never broke eye contact. Not sure I’ve ever seen that from her <3
We took a little break then did more Leash Off and Volume Dial games to get her energy up before sending to the weaves. Last time I did volume dial in a big space I made the mistake of standing still, this time I worked to add some movement; I felt awkward but working on it. She deflates when I feel awkward, but did well here. I think I lost her after the first “leash off” because I goofed my mechanics, feeding BEFORE removing leash.
I am SUPER proud of her Remote Reinforcement Combo work – the way I was thinking of this was: Set down the dish, wait for connection, leave reinforcement with intention, do a “thing” or a “couple of things” then mark and return – I wasn’t exactly thinking of it as a “start line” for a course. My “things” were leash removal and a piece of eqmt or two or more. She did great (1:33-1:42, swoon!)- I got a little puzzled on my plan when I realized I wasn’t doing my “leash off – offered focus” routine – I didn’t give cookies after taking of the leash in this session, darn it! Brain fail, missed opportunities for more cookies!
I was mindful to get lots of cookie deliveries on weaves, and we also practiced and rewarded frequently for wraps – skills stuff feeding from hand or on target plate, separate from the RR mechanics.
Long post and a lot of video. Let me know if I should have split it into separate posts. We’ll try some different things tomorrow – back to take a breath I think 🙂
Brenda
