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Yes, that is a definite trigger (those BCs with them staring eyeballs and all) plus trials take a TON of mental energy, so he was depleted – and didn’t know how to handle it and the amygdala took over: DANGER! DANGER!
I had a hard time snapping him out of this. The first reaction was right as we were going into the ring- they were at the entrance and then followed us to the exit- what great luck.
Ultimately, after the run, I got his collar and took him outside and he was fine. I suspected I had just done too much and he was over threshold.
This particular facility has been our easiest when it’s not busy- and I wouldn’t have called the weekend overly busy but the space is so tight. There’s about 10 feet from the wall to the ring gating and people, dogs, chairs scattered throughout. Normally I’d park him in a corner away from the action, but the corners were taken by people trying to manage their own crazy dogs.
I think next time, I’ll plan to wait outside if I see him worrying.I didn’t anticipate the person to move from the entrance to the exit so that was just unfortunate. I had planned for someone to stand in front of the gate- which also didn’t happen and the gate was open so it made me clench a little.
I recommend seeking out less-stary boy BCs and do pattern games until he is happy and not reactive – then add more challenging dogs.
I haven’t quite figured out if his trigger is the staring or just all intact males… He’s good with female border collies that I have introduced him to and ones that may herd a little. He was wanting to growl at another intact male irish setter whose owner thankfully moved for me. The irish setter was doing nothing to illicit a response other than owning balls and standing.
For the hind end engagement – there are a lot of reasons why he might not be using it: conditioning, understanding/coordination, physical issue. So for the summer project, from the training/conditioning side of things: no more full height jumping so it is easier for him to commit to the jumps, coordinate the jumping effort, and conditioning/hind end power work (do you already have these in your toolbox?) I will be adding a hind end coordination game to the CAMP class because it is needed in general. And, have you had him x-rayed and also a PT/soft tissue person check him? That will rule out any physical reasons why he doesn’t want to use his rear and avoids jumps that are right there.
I really hadn’t considered any physical cause because his rear end awareness and strength seems good. He pivots well, we back up often. He does great with instability exercises. While not the same as agility jumping, I feel like he super powers off his rear on the dock because he’s popping up into the air at heights that are above my head.
I mostly blame my self for the lack of commitment because while working on other things and confidence, he got reinforced for missing jumps often as long as he got back on a line. I wouldn’t say it’s worsened, but it’s not gotten any better either.
The other thing is that he really never sees full widespread courses like this to train full jump commitment. I would often miss jumps when we did camp last summer but we weren’t working on such open lines.
I haven’t done hips on him because he’d have to be sedated and I didn’t want to traumatize him.I do think spending time with lower jumps and rewarding on the line will be helpful.
Howdy! I’ve been thinking about you all weekend. Please let me know if you need anything!
We played UKI for 2 days. I have a couple of runs.
This first one was FEO, but I didn’t reward where I planned because I’m a terrible human. It was a hard weave entrance and exit and I planned to reward there but Fever totally nailed it like he had zero questions and I tried to keep going. I even have the frisbee in my hand to reward 🙈
He was super for most of the day with some reactivity explosion at the end of the day.
For his first 3 runs, I had a perfect engaged chill while I dropped treats waiting ringside, heeled right before going in the ring and even had some leash tugging.
Our last run, idk what happened. He was convinced this other male border collie had a switch blade or something. He started growling and lunging before going in the ring, but settled when we got there- it’s this SS run.
The dog was parked at the exit glaring at him through the gating, you can see he sees him but looks back at me.We did just one run today. It was a surprise FEO! I brought him in and he was tugging super well. He shot off like a bullet! We missed 1 jump and then made a loop back, our leash happened to still be waiting on the line because the leash runner disappeared so he joyously ran and grabbed his leash, brought it to me with full glee when I called him and then vigorously tugged all the way out! Overall I’d call that one a win. I was really happy he didn’t victory lap with the leash.
Paco said “that’s a nice leash” 🤣🤣I don’t have a ton of footage because Carrie was filming, meeting my emotional needs, and timing/scribing so pre run is a bit much to ask too.
Getting reinforcement thrown on the landing side of the jump and not coming from your hands will make a massive difference. A toy would be great but if that is not going to work as a reinforcement, you can also do a lotus ball because he does like treats!
this is still a security blanket that makes me nervous to let go. I’m never around new dogs to practice with a thrown toy to make sure he would bring it back. If he comes immediately back to me like he does in practice, it would be fine but I’m worried he will work the perimeter and find a reason to leave if he has the toy. I do throw the toy in the yard or in Carrie’s yard.
I think the first choice of reinforcement was not actually reinforcement, so he was kinda meh. You can have 2 or 3 types of rewards with you and if he is meh about one… switch! John worked him for treats and he was great! You worked him for the toy dangling and he was not as into it. There is nothing wrong with using high value, stinky gross food rewards instead of a tug toy 🙂
Well fuck, I wasn’t getting the vibe that he wasn’t into the toy… Is this for all sessions or just the first one where he was extra shut down?
And you running Callie first DEFINITELY helps him – it is something to play with and then try to get him stimulated like that when she is not present so you don’t rely on her being there.
He gets really excited when I run without a dog. I noticed that in your seminar when you had me run without him and you held him.
He runs past things a lot, for no particular reason 🙂
I think this is partially my doing. I always assume it’s my fault and reward anyway because I don’t want him to melt so we are in a vicious cycle. We do a good bit of drive lines and those go well, it’s mostly turns that I lose him.
Areas of disconnect happened with a mistake or jumping from one sequence to another. I really tried to keep him tugging but man I pull it out of his mouth a lot my accident. He also doesn’t grab it as well as I’m expecting when I run with it.
I tried to trim the footage down as much as I could while still leaving work and space in between (I had almost 2 hours of video). Feel free to review how little or as much as you need.
Probably a good example of depletion, especially at the end o fa long hot weekend.
After the golden and the other red border collie had their chase skuffle, I tried to nope out with John. I was like yeahhh it’s been a long weekend. His stress hormones are probably high. I should just bounce. He nahh get him he’s been fine 🤣.
Last day! We survived!
I got a lot of good info about this weekend. Interestingly, he wasn’t as high as he is in trials but I could really get him into the proper state by running Callie for just a second.
He did get some distraction with the ring barrier- chasing the movement of the other dogs but called off when called. The last run, we kind of went a bit overboard on it because another dog had just gotten chased.
Our areas of disconnect were in the spaces in between.
I will compile the footage when we are riding back tomorrow.
I’m really glad I got John because I tried to chicken out of running in the afternoon and he encouraged me to keep going.
Thanks for your input as well! It was a much needed message to wake up to. I was feeling super emotional all weekend because I really don’t give either of us enough credit for the work we’ve put in and can mostly only see the things that don’t go perfect.
Now I need work with both you and Annette to work on controlling all the feelings 🤣This morning was a mixed bag but I got some good info.
We started in John’s ring. I thought it would be better if I ran him when things were calm. No other rings were running and people were walking. I brought him out. His heeling was okay, not super excitable. He came off leash and was just super shut down. Hearing all the sounds, wanting to sniff. We worked a little but I told John I was going to get frustrated and wanted to stop.Our second run, both rings were going. I brought both dogs out, ran Callie first and got him screaming and then he did much better the second time. His energy with both rings going was better to begin with, but Callie helped a lot.
I almost had a melt down over our first run because he was so amazing yesterday so finding the balance here is hard. I thought it would be easier for him with less going on but that was wrong 🤷♀️He’s also on his first week of adding Zoloft which I do think is helping him some. His baseline self seems more joyful at home and in public, his tail carriage seems a bit more relaxed.
I did get some footage. I’ll edit if you’d like to review when I’m less exhausted.
Tracy!!!!! We did it! 😭😭😭😭
Fever ran while the other two rings were running!
I don’t really have any footage because my village was in another group 🤣When I got there this morning, I was super worried. He wouldn’t eat. He wouldn’t play… he kept trying to drag me to the ring. I managed to get a weak pattern game 50 yards away from the ring and weak healing. I worked Callie in the morning because we started in the center ring.
During the lunch break which was low key, I decided to pull him out and see if he could eat and work. He did a pattern game and heeled so I let him off leash. He was working and listening.
For the afternoon, we were with Annette and I told her we’ve not done this and to watch the ring. I decided to run him first while Roulez was in the ring next to him which was actually the hardest. He ran the gate for a second chasing her movement, but called right off and went back to work.
He worked with two other unfamiliar dogs in the next ring. He came in ready to work every time and ready to heel to our line up spot.
Our last run, he was sniffing where I parked him- there was a BIS there too but he took right off the start line from his stay and was brilliant. I’m so proud and happy!
I don’t know what the rest of the weekend holds but I am so thrilled!The only instructor I have worked with before will be Annette. The other two are John Nys or Cassie Schmidt.
I’m hoping I can go first or last or before lunch but just feel worried because it was unexpected and I was looking forward to working him.
Sorry for the panicked post. Mostly just feeling disappointed and like I should have spent all that money on something else 🙃
Happy Thursday!ugh
we were supposed to seminar this weekend but the heat is forcing it under cover. It looks like it will be three small rings running together in a 10k square foot arena. Idk if it’s wise to push him in that stimulating of an environment…We had an awesome leash play/lead out session that had 4 reps. I got him a new sheep tug leash (Fever sezzzz Nanny Tracy recommendations are the best) and to my horror my camera didn’t record 😭.
It was in the 90s so I let him cool off in the pool (really it’s marinate when it’s hot) and filmed a couple of less energetic ones for you to look at as well as some approximating my face.
The main thing I see is that you can build up the pattern game more, tossing the treats closer and without find my face yet. I suggest that because of the the high latency (delayed response) here in the home environment
Usually there is much less latency even in strange environments. I think part of the problem was me taking find my face SUPER LITERAL and waiting for EYEBALLS ON MY EYEBALLS. I will reduce my criteria and throws. He usually lives for this game.
thanks!
We tried find my face. I think I accident made it too hard at the end and told me.
Is there anything here you’d like to see more of from us or for us to revisit?
Oh lord this flowsheet is causing way more inner turmoil than I expected. Part of the reason I’ve been so hesitant to do anything outside of the yard is because Carrie’s yard is so hard for us and forever I’ve felt like if I can’t get it there, I shouldn’t ask for it anywhere else. While rationally I understand that the pool is our biggest challenge, it makes me very insecure in moving forward.
SO in Carrie’s yard I’m pretty consistently at step 1, I may or may not get to step 2. In my yard, at the new field, I can be at 3 and 4.
You pointed out missing jumps and the run around the table. Missing jumps consistently happens in practice also. I’m hoping we can work this in camp some… but we also don’t have opportunities to run full courses unless its a trial or seminar. Plus Carrie will be out this summer if Roulez gets pregnant so I’ll be course building alone. Very rarely do I practice the table. His teeter really hasn’t been worked either because I’ve been working this stuff.
Now I just feel really conflicted and don’t know where to begin. I felt like his ring time looked the same if not better than Carrie’s yard but also better than most places we’ve been, but I also don’t want to miss any steps for him.
We have a seminar planned in 2 weeks and I haven’t planned anything after officially.
I am bugging everyone about skipping steps: going from Step 1 (FEO just like home, visible toy) to Step 4 (full runs, all the things, no reward in the ring) is incredibly hard for the dog and can be stress-inducing for most dogs… especially if they have not yet worked to steps 3 and 4 (running sequences and courses without reinforcement on the handler) in training classes or seminars.
I guess I didn’t really feel like I was blowing passed the steps because he’s done a good bit of seminars, run feo and ACT courses but my toys weren’t exactly hidden.
How will I know when to transition because lord knows I can stay at one step forever? I didn’t feel like I was having signs of stress in my runs but I don’t want to create stress either or shut him down.
