[Kathy]

Hi Bobbie,
I agree with you about the handling. I am really working on handling the line and my timing in class but it is hard for me and I still make lots of mistakes. He used to respond to my mistakes all the time in “Sheltie fashion” in a big way to the point that he couldn’t do anything else. Now he gets over it faster which is an improvement. But, he swings more often to what I call “thoughtful Buccleigh” where he slows down and hesitates or stops. It’s really hard to get him going. I never quite know whether I will have fast and furious or hesitant and slow. I try to have handling plans for both but I am struggling. It is better when I am more confident.

Teeter behavior is generally good. I am pretty sure that when he runs past it is usually due to my handling. He never avoids it at home. He sometimes does it in class but once again it is pretty easy to associate it with a handling error.

Regarding the weaves. I believe he is physically sound. We have been questioning that since his accident. He gets massages and we regularly see a chiropractor. He had physical therapy after the accident and we continue to do conditioning exercises. There doesn’t seem to be anything physical but I am always watching.

He is concerned about bigger black dogs or border collies. Generally he is good now, but if he is stressed like at a trial he will sometimes lunge at these dogs. I don’t know why he feels this way as he has never had an altercation with a dog. he was mobbed once in a puppy class during “free play”. There wasn’t a fight but he was scared and after that we only did limited free play.

He has had issues with the judge in the ring. At his first big trial (2018), he started out fine, then he saw the judge. She was quietly standing in the ring and looking at him and maybe slowly walking towards him. It was pretty obvious that he was frightened. I think we did another run or two, but he reached the point where all he wanted to do was leave the ring. We worked through this and and he seemed to be OK by spring 2019 although he was doing a lot of zoomies and the “Sheltie fashion” response was pretty strong. This is when he was dropping a lot of bars and started to slow down in jump training (summer 2019). Then the accident (fall 2019) and we stopped agility training focusing on conditioning and focus work (Zen with Deb Jones). We didn’t get to trial again until the fall of 2020. I started running him preferred and we completed all the open titles and we have had some good runs in excellent but between my handling and the oscillating between “wild Buccleigh” and “thoughtful Buccleigh” we are a little stuck. Long story, but back to the judge. In the video you can’t see the judge, but I was aware of the judge moving behind me when he came out of the weaves. You notice that he looks quickly to his left towards the judge when he comes out. During the rest of the video he seems very aware of where the judge is. I can’t say this is a constant observation. During our practices I have had people in the ring and it doesn’t seem to bother him.

The first two videos are from the same trial the first week of February. Video 1 is day 1 second run of 3. Video 2 is day 2, first run of 2. The last video is from a trial at the end of February. We only went for 1 day and this is the last run of 3. I started cutting down to one day at trials since I thought that he was getting more stressed with each run. He does seem to run better earlier in the day. This seems similar to what you described in the first assignment.

I am working hard to improve my handling. Hopefully there is a way to help Buccleigh cope while I improve. When he is happy and running, it is the the best feeling for both of us.

[Kathy]

Hi Tracy,
We are continuing to work on these and as the weather improves we will do more. I have one last question. While we are still working on these, is it OK to use the verbal where it is appropriate when handling a sequence even if I don’t think my dog has a complete understanding of the verbal but will most likely make the appropriate movement because of the handling? Or is it better not to use the verbals in sequences until I am sure that he/she know the verbal completely?
Thank you for another great course. I will time the next one better so I have more time to participate.
Kathy

[Kathy]

We got outside yesterday and used the manners minder. This was a bigger distraction for both dogs than the distraction jump. I tried to work through this with both dogs by decreasing my motion (moving closer to the bar) but I feel like I cheated a little by waving the food toy around and calling their attention to it. I also think that once I added motion I was walking a little on an angle. Once I got them to turn, then I had trouble getting the go again. My attempt to make it easier was to move closer to the bar. Would it have been better to trigger the MM before I let them go? The motor makes a noise which they recognize and it would have changed their focus. When trying to get the turn should I go back to using the wing a couple of times as a reminder? Both dogs were successful at the end of the session.
The break in Buccleigh’s session was when the neighbors came home. This was distracting Buccleigh and rather than taking the chance of him charging the fence and barking, I chose some “get it” games while we waited for them to get settled.
It’s warmer now so I can crate Buccleigh in the car. It is hard for him when he is crated in the same room and I am working Keltie. At home he is inside and can’t see the yard and he can settle. At most trial venues, we can get far enough from the ring so he can settle there. He is better than he was.
My take home message from this training and the on-line chats is that this can take a long time for the dogs to really understand so we need to have patience and enjoy the game. They seem to like it so far and are eager to play.
I would like to try the wrap exercises again. Is is OK to mix them up? Maybe on different days? Or, should I stay with the soft turns until we have it a little better?
Keltie

Buccleigh

[Kathy]

Hi Tracy,
We had a few minutes before class today so we did a short blast. I worked on changing the tone of my voice and being more careful about the mechanics. The wing on the jump seemed to help. Keltie is still having trouble with the go. When I reviewed the video I noticed that it might be a problem when she is on my right since she did well when she was on my left. I will follow up next time we practice.
“His response to being tired is to bark more.” That’s kind of his response to everything. You can hear him “resting” in his crate while Keltie is running :-). Never the less, I agree and think he does better with shorter sessions.
It’s sunny and windy today so the field is starting to dry a little. Hopefully we can get out there tomorrow.

[Kathy]

Hi Tracy,
Between work and weather it’s been challenging to practice. We have been able to practice a couple of times but it’s been pretty messy trying to dodge puddles and mud. Today we rented some time inside. I worked with each dog for about 7 minutes/. With Keltie, I started with the wing and progressed to the jump and then the go. She seemed to remember the turns when we worked with the wing. She was driving forward which is new for her. She was able to transfer to the bar pretty easily. Go was harder. We got the first one and then had a couple of misses. We got it but it seems harder for her when she is on my right. We were able to go back to the turns. I do think that she is still cuing on my body because she seems to be looking at me a lot.

I started with “go” with Buccleigh. I tried to go straight to the turns but he missed so I went back to the wing which he remembered. We switched to the bar and he got the first one but then missed so I started him close to the bar and worked back. That seemed to work but he missed when we went to the other side. We got it once by moving close to the bar bu then he missed so we went back to the wing. At that point I felt like he was starting to get too aroused so after his success on the wing we moved away and did some fun running and stopped. I am not sure if he was frustrated or reacting to the dog that was just behind the barrier and making a lot of noise especially when we moved toward the barrier.

I know we need more practice, but is this progression correct? What could I do better?Contrasting the two dogs, Keltie seems more focused and a little more successful. I think Buccleigh gets over aroused and then it’s harder to think so he just wants to “go”. The cookie reset is working well with Buccleigh and generally we are doing well. I am thinking I might try shorter sessions with him, maybe 5 -8 reps then something else fun like chasing a ball and come back to it for a couple of more reps.
Buccleigh

Keltie

[Kathy]

Hi Tracy,
This makes sense. Hopefully we can get outside this afternoon to try again.
Kathy

[Kathy]

We have been really challenged by the weather and my schedule. We had a warm day last week and a clear (but soggy) field. I was motivated by the training night chats so elected to try the soft turns. Here is a session with Keltie and one with Buccleigh. I cut out some of parts where I retrieved the toy and put the food in it. Am I doing this right? I am pretty sure they are relying more on my body movement than the verbals but my understanding is that this is what we should expect in the beginning. Both dogs seemed to have trouble with the go. I think they might be used to me moving faster with “go” which I guess means that they don’t really know the verbal. I left a little more video between the reps for Buccleigh. I was really proud of him because he was getting a little frustrated and starting to bark (with the go command) but I used some of the games you taught us in an earlier course and he stayed focused. You can see it on the video. He was a very good dog!

Here is Keltie’s session

Here is Buccleigh

[Kathy]

With regard to your comment about the quiet environment, We do attend a noisier class and we have bee working our way out of the back room to the main room. We will continue to work on that. I have been trying to keep her from barking but I am going to ease up on that a bit. I worry she will annoy other people but she really wasn’t too bad especially compared to Buccleigh. We also have a fun run on Jan 2 which will be a relaxed but noisy trial-like environment. I will make sure she can see and hear some of the action.

Thank you for the plan for the run thrus. I can do this. I will write it out and make sure I have everything organized. I love the idea of the first run being a fiesta and I think they will like it, too.
This course has been a game changer for my attitude. I am having a lot more fun and really starting to enjoy the element of play this has added to our training.

Thank you and have a wonderful holiday!

• This reply was modified 3 years, 5 months ago by Kathy.

[Kathy]

We tried it in class today and I made a video. She really likes class so she usually runs well there so it might be hard to see a difference. I did notice that after Buccleigh ran she was a little more vocal and she was jumping on me. She was pretty peppy for the last run too.
I can’t say fro sure that it made a lot of difference but it was functional and I think I will continue to do it in class. It is easier to split the time into shorter intervals for training between the two dogs. It was pretty exciting for Buccleigh. You can hear him in the background when she runs but he was able to come out of the crate and maintain good focus and respond well. He was working to hold the sit stay but he could. I think it is a little closer to the trial environment so it was good practice. I was proud of both of them.

We have a run thru at the trial venue next week. These are rare and I can use food in the ring so I want to make the best use of my time. I signed up for three spots. In the first hour I have 2 spots which translates to 6/ 1 minute runs. I think I could ask if I can combine the spots to get 3/2 minute runs. In the second hour I have one spot= 3 /1 min. runs but once again I think I could do 2 back to back so I would have 2 minutes and then 1 run of 1 minute remaining.
I was thinking of doing our remote reward circuit. Put the cookies at the ring entry. Walk up to the start line and set up. Then release into the course away from the reward, do one or two obstacles and then “cookies” and back to the reward. Then set up again and repeat adding another obstacle and then ping ponging for either 1 or 2 minutes. Does this sound like a good plan or would you recommend something else?
My goals: I would really like to do the start line stay with Buccleigh as we have not been able to try this at this venue. I didn’t think he would be successful a trial and I didn’t want to risk it (not because of q’s but because of the effect it might have on his confidence). I feel more confident with the remote reward availability. For both of them I would like them to be fast and happy. I think the remote reward will help with that especially if I am patient and keep the number of obstacles low so the rewards are frequent.
As an aside, Keltie and I had a spontaneous game of tug in the house and she was really getting into it. I think I might be able to teach her “bite”!

[Kathy]

Yes, they are very jealous-at least that’s how I would characterize the insane barking that occurs when they watch. I can’t do this outside as it would send my neighbor way over the top of the arousal curve. I am going to try setting Keltie up at a window where she can watch from inside to see how that might work. Buccleigh barks inside even when he can’t see so I think actually watching may be too stimulating.

Great suggestion about using a timer. I limited the total time on the field to 10 minutes which included breaks to transition between the remote reward (just 2 minutes here) and reward on the field for short sequences and obstacle practice. There was a lot of energy during the 10 minutes and both dogs left happy and wanting more. Me, too! I think this is going to change the whole mindset of our practices.

[Kathy]

So just a quick question to verify “with emphasis on the cookies marker after the lower value obstacles”. If I was using the set up in the video, when she is fresh I would use the cookie marker after the weaves so the sequence would be jump, tunnel, weaves then “cookie”. The marker is after the low value weaves and she is moving away from the cookies when the marker is given. We could work this for 2 minutes and then we could do some sequencing and reward on the moment on the course. It seems like it would be good to focus on rewarding the low value obstacles then, too. She has been rewarded a lot for dog walks, teeter and A-frame which may be why she likes them so much.

[Kathy]

I tried this is class yesterday and made a short video of the session with Keltie. I was pleased with the way it went.
Good things:
She could move away from the reward.
She got more enthusiastic as the exercise continued.*
Ping ponging was effective and I know better how to do it.
It was a fun game.

Things to improve:
Add obstacles in smaller increments.
Don’t do as many reps in one session. (yes, I know you have been saying it, but seeing is really believing!)

*She did slow down on the longer reps at the end, but we can’t really say if it was adding too many obstacles too soon or the session was getting too long. Lesson learned is to do a little less and more slowly in the future.

Biggest take away for me was that she was really having a good time. When she barks she is happy and she was pretty vocal for her.

[Kathy]

“Do you mean he would hit a bar and get worried and stop? Or was he getting feedback that he was wrong for hitting it?” He wasn’t getting a reward when he knocked the bar and we stopped which I think is the same as saying he was wrong. I don’t do it this way anymore. We just ignore dropped bars and fortunately they don’t happen too often. Mostly when I lose connection and he starts looking at me or if he is really excited and just tearing through the course.
I agree what you said about focussing on the remote reward. We have some fun runs coming up-different venue but I can put the manners minder in the ring by the exit gate and we have 90 sec. So running some short sequences moving away from the MM and then use the marker to go to the MM rather than turning first to the MM and then using the marker. This is so the reward (marker) comes when he is moving away which is harder rather than moving towards it. Do I have this right? I could do this as a loop moving quickly back to the start and repeating maybe 2-3 times during our 90 sec run. The advantage of the setting is 1.)food in the ring and a 2.)”real” trial like setting.

It sounds like the same plan will work for Keltie because she is definitely fast and happy when I have food in my hand.

You cautioned that remote reward training isn’t a lifestyle change and doesn’t replace other methods. Would it be OK do do a 5 -10 min. session of this on the days I can train outside? This could be up to 5 times a week until it really starts to snow. Also, no treats in my hands but should I make sure that my pockets are empty too?

I will look for some UKI opportunities. We did enter one earlier this fall but they didn’t have the food box.

[Kathy]

The trial was not too successful in terms of Qs but the runs were good at illustrating the things I need to work on with both dogs and it is timely for the planning part of this course.
Starting with Buccleigh. When he is not overly aroused, I think he gets worried especially when he has to do a lot of jumps in a row. This first showed up maybe 18 months ago when I was doing a jumping course. He was jumping 18 inches and knocking bars a lot so his success rate was low and he would stop. We thought it might be physical so we were exploring that when he fell and did injure himself. We went through rehab and decided to go to a lower jump height which I think was a good decision but I wonder if our journey of low success with jumping might be contributing to this problem (I didn’t understand much about rate of reward then). The first video shows him stopping in the course this weekend on Sat.. This happens more in jumpers. he usually yawns when he stops. I had a plan if he stopped to get to the nearest tunnel and then jump our way to the exit. I couldn’t get him to move until I yelled tunnel and then it was like a curtain lifted and he started moving. The next day, I decided to give him a tunnel cue if he started to hesitate to see if I could get him to keep going. Even if we skipped jumps on the course on the way to the tunnel, he wouldn’t know and it would keep him moving. The second video shows that. he kind of glanced at the tunnel when I said it but kept moving on the path. I also cued the weaves before he took the jump before the weaves to let him know they were coming. After this run in the morning, he seemed more confident and was much faster. I didn’t adjust my handling very well from slow Buccleigh to fast Buccleigh so he was a frustrated on several occasions, but I was able to get the focus back and keep going.

In terms of planning for Buccleigh, should I work on building value for jumping by increasing the number of jumps before a reward? Could I use a tunnel of weaves as part of the reward? He likes them and they are available in the ring.
We did tiny steps with the leash since we didn’t have time for much training, I just practiced slipping the leash handle over his head at the end of the run. It got us out and to the cookies faster so with more practice I think this will work.

Keltie is slow and she gets slower when she is not confident. We get to practice with food in the ring at one trial venue and she runs much better there than at the venue this weekend. I have two videos at the same venue to show you. One was about a month ago. This was about the best she has run at this venue. The second video is from this weekend and it is about the slowest she has run. I think we have many things we could work on and I don’t know where to start. We have been working on using the remote reward (manners minder or food in a treat pouch stationed at the start) and increasing the number of obstacles. It’s promising because she consistently runs much faster at the end of the run. She is very sensitive to pressure from me and she doesn’t like any pressure on the leash (she stops and sits and will NOT move) so I have been removing it as soon as we get in the ring and allowing her to walk to the start line on her own. I do think she likes the game but not so much when she isn’t comfortable in the environment. She will take food, do tricks and her focus is strong. Working on playing wit toys but not too successfully especially at a trial venue.
Trial one month ago:

Trial this weekend:

I think for both dogs that these are complicated behaviors and I need to break them down into smaller components and work on them one at a time.
Do you think that what I have outlined above is a good place to start?

• This reply was modified 3 years, 5 months ago by Kathy.

[Kathy]

Busy week in my other life so I haven’t had much time to work on this course. But I have some time to respond to some of your questions, now.
Background noise: “Do the dogs find it aversive?” They definitely did, especially Buccleigh. It sent him into a frenzy. The noise is similar to wind or automobiles although louder-think hurricane or jet engine. This has been going on for years so we started with cookie scatters and cookie parties whenever he turned on the noise. We played pattern games and I fed them in the yard when it was on and gradually we have reached the point where they notice when he turns it on but we can keep working or playing. So I think we are OK. It was interesting to me in the session that I videoed that Buccleigh could hear the neighbor moving around his yard before he turned on the machine and was much more distracted by that than he was when the machine was turned on. I was distracted because I wasn’t sure what he (the neighbor) might do so that might have contributed. All of this mimics trial “nerves”. so I try to think of it as a good thing to be able to work through.

“Can he relax in a crate?” Yes, sometimes. He is fine in the car and at trials as long as he is not right by the ring. It depends on the venue, but if he is maybe 40-50 feet away from the ring and it is a big enough space so the sound can disperse he is fine. I cannot crate him at class in the same room or near the same room where dogs are running. Keltie is more relaxed about this but not enough to crate in the same room at a class.

I reviewed the lessons on using the leash as a toy. I don’t think we are ready for that. I do have a “tugging leash which I bought but never used so I am going to use that for some of our trying to get them to tug play-maybe I will get surprised.

I am going to work on your suggestion from the Zoom meeting of getting Buccleigh to put his head through the loop of the leash. I think that might be a more realistic goal that getting him to think of the leash as a toy, for now anyway.
We have a trial this weekend so we will work on the chin rest and remote rewards there as well as encouraging some down time in the crate. The goal will be to make it fun and build enthusiasm for all of us.

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