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Hi, Kim,
How nice to see you and Sly again! I agree that it’s hard to believe our “baby dogs” are heading toward their 3rd birthdays. Of course, with our other girls at 8 and 11, Keiko still is the “baby.” Just don’t try to tell her that. She is definitely a red-head!
Looking forward to watching you and Sly in this class.
Take care,
~KristieHI, Tracy,
I realize this class is over, and I’m already looking forward to your next classes in 2022. Between now and then, do you do “private consults” online? I figure we’re doing the one and done for a while, so I should be in a new class with you by the time Keiko and I are moving forward, but I wanted to ask about privates just in case.
I don’t know what holidays you celebrate at this time. I hope they are lovely. I’m sure all your pups will enjoy having a bit more of your time for a short while. ;). Take care, be well, and we’ll see you next year.
~Kristie & KeikoWednesday:
Thanks! Great feedback – yes, at first I thought she was too eager for the toy, but I decided it was really hesitation about the seesaw, and hoping I’d toss the frisbee before she actually had to bang it.>>Take the jump out of the picture and keep working up to getting her to move the board by getting onto the side. That isolates what she is worried about AND helps build value for the end of the board.
Ok, to be sure I’m understanding. Do I still let her approach the bang end any way she wants, or am I trying to get her to jump up and move a little as you did with Hot Sauce? I’m assuming we’re not ready for the jump on the side and head down to the end as you did with Matrix.
Thanks again! We’ll limit our bangs to one and done. 🙂
——Thursday:
PS: Just wanted to add a bit from today’s class. First, a bit of background. There are 2 doodles in Keiko’s class in the arena. They each have a handler, but sometimes only one handler brings both dogs. When that happens (and it’s been happening a lot recently) the dog not running cries and barks non-stop while the other dog is running. They do nothing to calm or quiet the dog. The instructor said she will be talking to them, but it hasn’t happened yet. Needless to say, the barking and upset in the other dog is concerned to Keiko, and she watches them both carefully. She takes treats during this time and will use her snuffle mat, but I don’t think it’s good and have started taking her to the car when she’s not running.
Today it was 2 dogs for 1 person so we watched during the walk through but then the barking started so we left the building. When it was her turn, Keiko was very distracted (turned out there was some poop in a corner from someone) and I had to work lots of “find its” to get her focused and running. Once she was running, she was great – until we headed back toward the others. More “find its” got her connected again, and we ran. After the others left, I went back in with Keiko and her frisbee, to try the bang it (board touching ground so no motion). We walked into the ring and I walked near the seesaw. Keiko saw the frisbee, trotted up to the seesaw, I didn’t even get a chance to say “bang it” – she hit it up about 6 inches in and then poised for the frisbee run. She was delighted. I did a couple of the sets we were supposed to do in class – she was flawless and fast. I’ve tried the frisbee in the indoor class without much success, but I think I’ll give it a try in the arena. Bigger space, more chance to run – and run away from the pressure. I was pleased at how well she responded to banging the seesaw. We did come home, and do one bang with motion. It was also a definite (not timid) bang and a race for the frisbee. Then on to other stuff. You’re right – it’s going to be a bit frustrating for me to only do “one and done” but this definitely looks like the way to go.HI, Tracy,
Thanks tons for the videos. Very helpful to have the reinforcement for training. Yes, yesterday the seesaw was touching the ground, so there was no motion. Today, I nudged things up a tiny bit – about an inch. I’m starting each session with a run over the seesaw since she does love it, and I want to keep that association going at home. I made of video of what we did. You’ll notice she was very “polite” about touching the seesaw sometimes. I could tell she was eager to get the frisbee. It was almost as if she was afraid I throw it before she touched the seesaw and then she wouldn’t be able to catch it. I was thinking she was being tentative about touching it, but then she started doing something odd which you’ll see in the last 3 clips. She seemed to want to have motion to the seesaw, bang it, and then run for the frisbee. She has always run to the seesaw, so maybe just standing next to it seems odd to her? What’s your read? Do I start running with her, or have her do a jump and run to it for the bang game? I know we’re setting up a sort of pattern here, and want to be sure what I’m rewarding is appropriate. What do you think? Isn’t she a funny duck!
Hi, again. 🙂
Thought I’d show you our first bang-it session on our home seesaw (with the board solidly on the ground). She loves those frisbees so much that it’s hard to get her to focus. I think, in some ways, that’s a good thing because she gives me the bang behavior, and then is racing off. She hopped on the seesaw as I was getting ready to set things up, so I left that clip in so you could hear what “noise” this seesaw does make. Not tons, but it’s not completely quiet, either. Would there be any point, down the road, in adding something to it to make it make more noise or is that a horrid thought?
Here’s our session from today. 🙂Thanks, Tracy. I double checked with you because I wondered what level of caution I should be at – knowing it should be zero right now really makes sense.
Hi, Tracy,
Just a little update. We’ve had rain and cold, so the field’s been “off limits” though I’m hoping it will dry and thaw some in a day or two. Keiko and I have been doing some things indoors, and it seems to be about the level of stress she’s ready for.
I have been putting a metal bowl, spoon, measuring cup and small pan lid in various configurations and Keiko has to get good treats from them. This usually means there is a metal clank noise at some point, and sometimes a piece moves and/or falls making more noise. She’s getting used to it, but is still cautious, so we do just a couple set ups, and celebrate.
I also brought back in our small tippy boards (starting with the one with a 2.5 inch tip height). She was happy to bang the up end on the carpet and then run for a “find it” treat. Next, I put the up end over the tile on the edge of the carpet. There is definitely a bang sound now. She’ll do that a bit, but carefully, so I’m limiting how many we do and making the treat better than our other games.
This does seem to me to be her current level of “a bit of stress but still doing it”. I’d like to get it to “doing it and happy!”. Any comments or tips? Thanks, ~KristieHi, Tracy,
So, we were thinking the same thing. (Great minds???;) As I thought about it, I did think I should do a run, do a teeter thing, reward and quit. No need to muddy the waters.
Just to clarify:
>>When I was working through Export’s teeter terror, I would drive to a new place, get one hit on the teeter, give him an entire fistful of Vienna Sausages, then throw his favorite ball. And that was the entire session.
Not sure what you mean by one hit on the teeter? Did you actually take your teeter along and set it up and do a bang game or a low run over or ??? I figure right now I’m working on the sound sensitivity, so just a short session of “find it” or something else like whipped cream licking? with a little noise being made by someone else on the teeter fora brief period should do it. What were you doing when you went all over the place? I do have the 2 places we’re taking classes and a friend with the same type of teeter that I can do drop ins for the sensitivity. Just what would be the next step?Today, we had a Saturday handling session and Keiko did nicely with the “find it” while other dogs were running. A new and very lively dog came in half-way through the session. Keiko lay outside her crate crunching ice cubes from her water dish and watching the action calmly. Nice! :).
Thanks so much for you time and help. :).
HI, Tracy,
Yes, it was such fun to run with her and see her having such a grand time. 🙂
I really like your suggestion of “gradual dog exposure” while keeping her focused. Sounds like it’s a great strategy, and I can understand why fly-ball folks would have developed it. I think our oldest girl and perhaps one of the dogs in class will be good for starters. I’ll have no problem finding high-drives. Thanks!
I agree about short sessions with the saw motion. I was planning on having her run a short sequence or two, then do the find-it game while the instructor moved the seesaw board for a very short time. If that goes well, perhaps another short sequence so she ends on happy? Let me know if you think that’s too much. I was trying to think of a way to tie it all together and make things seem just part of agility…
Take care,~Kristie
Thanks, Tracy. I had hoped to have video today of Keiko doing the find it game while another dog ran the sequence. However, it turned out she was the only dog running today – and she had a ball! I think this was the most excited, happiest I’ve seen her in a class. She did everything I asked, handled rears, sends and her contacts (minus the seesaw) beautifully – and didn’t want to quit! We must have done sequence variations on a theme about 5 or 6 times, and she still didn’t want to leave the ring. Another woman, who did not have her dog today, was there to watch, and she ran Keiko twice. Keiko has only seen her once before, and never to visit or do anything with. She ran for the woman and did really well. 🙂
I thought perhaps this would be a good time to try a little desensitization. So the instructor brought out one of her dogs. Keiko had never me this boy before and my, my, he captivated her. A high energy BC/AC cross, this dog is gung-ho in agility – fast and loud. Keiko couldn’t even pay attention to me while he was around, much less focus when he was on the teeter. Ah, well… I’m going to do some short private sessions with the instructor moving the seesaw just a bit while Keiko and I do the find it game and see how things go. I’d rather start slow and build than have to back-track. I’ll let you know how it goes.Hi, Tracy,
I just heard back from the instructor and she is taking the seesaw out of Saturday’s exercises. She agrees that Keiko is sound sensitive and has seen (as I have) that Keiko notices the slightest noise even from people.
Her idea is:
“to have the seesaw supported with large cushions like from patio furniture. Both the up and down ends have cushioning as she gets conditioned to the teeter.
Then having her release off forward to a station with her reward. Like onto a Cato board that gives her something to do after the teeter and get reinforcement there and not on the teeter.”What is your reaction? Obviously, it’s too early to do this. I’m not sure something stationery, like a Cato board, is the something to do after the seesaw – I’m more inclined to make it a moving toy of some sort or a food toy. Perhaps, later, something like a tunnel where she is moving away.
Just wanted to let you know what the instructor has been thinking about. She is a real proponent of the Control Unleashed pattern games and I know will be supportive of what I want to do.
Take care. ~Kristie
Thank you, Tracy. This is incredibly helpful. I knew I wanted to desensitize her to the bangs, and your suggestion of the “Find it” game while others are using the teeter fits well. I’d like to go over my understanding of your protocol suggestions to make sure I’m reading them correctly.
I have no problem letting the instructors know we’re going to be avoiding doing the teeter for now. In the arena the equipment can be 80 or more feet away depending on the set up. It is that far away this week. However, I think you’re suggesting I not do the “find it” game when other dogs are running the teeter this week, correct? I know the adrenaline from stress takes a while to dissipate. I can just leave the room when others are using the teeter. Do you feel I can do the “find it” game in class with teeters if they are being used next week? The location of the teeter varies in the indoor setting, and is usually 25 or more feet from where we would be working. Is that too close for now? Every time a dog went over the teeter in class yesterday, Keiko popped up and watched intently. She was not shaking, but her eyes were wide. When the instructor checked in with us, she felt Keiko was mouth breathing. I took her outside and we walked there for a while, having a sniff fest.
>>Was she stressed by the interaction with the breeder, or still stressed from the teeter bang?
She really loves her breeder, gets excited to see her with wiggles and smiles, and is used to being rubbed up by her, so I think it was more stress from the teeter bangs since they were still happening rather than being stressed by the breeder. I know the breeder thinks I’m babying Keiko, but I think Keiko’s reactions to noise come from fear. She does startle at any sudden noise, especially when it’s behind her and she can’t tell where it’s coming from.Keiko was in our field earlier today and chose to do the seesaw on her own. I hadn’t heard back from you at that point, so we made a little game of her 2o2o and then I threw the frisbee. She asked for this little set 3 or 4 times, then we went on to something else. Our field is mostly dirt with some grass patches here and there, and the ground is usually soft so the “bang” is very muffled. She seemed totally herself.
We didn’t do a lot of the bang game when she was younger because she had been using little tippy boards early on, and she adapted rather quickly to the seesaw. So I’ll go back to doing the bang game at home with frisbee rewards. Once she gets the hang of it, she should enjoy it. It will be interesting to see how she reacts to touching a moving end since she’s used to the low end being on the ground.
Thanks again. Let me know if I’ve interpreted this correctly. Find it for other banging at a distance, bang game at home, no running teeters in class for now.
~Kristie
Hi, Tracy,
I’m somewhat upset this morning about class last night. I don’t know if you have any specific suggestions for us, but Keiko and I are really running into a seesaw issue. If this is not the right place to talk about this problem, I understand, and you can just tell me this is not appropriate here. I am working with both instructors to try to make the seesaw positive in class. As you know, Keiko loves the seesaw at home and will run to it and do it several times in a row. It’s fun, and she got tons of rewards when I was treating it, so it has high value.
This is NOT the case in classes. The seesaw I have (from MAD) is a sanded fiberglass “board” that is relatively thin, and not particularly noisy when either end hits the ground (dirt outside). I taught her using the gradual method with 2 tables starting low and going higher.
In both her classes, the seesaws are the newer rubberized surface with a thick hollow sounding board and jangling chains. Keiko is sound sensitive, and startles easily whenever a new, loud sound presents itself. She’s fine with the landing of the newer seesaws, but the reverb from the approach-end landing puts her almost over the top.
In the class in the barn, the last time the seesaw was out, the instructor put an extension on the landing end and a 20″ table under the approach end. I ran with a whipped cream canister, and Keiko was eager and ran well. We did this 3 times and that seemed to be about enough for her. The seesaw will be out on Thursday, and we plan on doing the same thing, perhaps a bit more if she seems happy.
Last night, in the indoor class, the seesaw was out at full height. I put a 20″ table on the approach end, and the instructor put some rubber padding under the down end to ease the bang (this is a really loud seesaw). A spoon at the end, whip cream in hand, and Keiko ran a dogwalk, tunnel, jump and up on the table and to the end of the seesaw. Yay! Then the bad stuff. Unfortunately, she jumped off to finish the whipped cream, the instructor forgot to grab the board and the end came down on the table with a bang. I could not get Keiko to try it again, even with whipped cream lure. :(. Her breeder was there (Keiko loves her first human), and wanted to try some “jollying” with Keiko as another dog ran over the seesaw. Keiko watched and took the rubbing and excited praise from the breeder, but I really felt she was still very stressed. I’m not at all sure how I feel about the “jollying” routine. I had a severely fear-aggressive Aussie in the past, and a combination of positive reinforcement, behavior management, some mild “be happy” encouragement and, eventually, some medication allowed us to compete in agility. It took 5.5 years, and she taught me sooo much. It’s an experience that has made me very sensitive to a dog’s reactions and emotions. I don’t want to coddle Keiko, but I also want her happy and doing things at her own pace.
We have an opportunity to do a Saturday session at the indoor facility, with the seesaw (and others). The instructor wrote to say she has some ideas to try with Keiko. I’m wondering if seesaw unhappy last night, then trying the seesaw on Thursday in the arena is enough for one week, or do we want to give Saturday a go, too?
Again, if this is inappropriate for this class, I understand. If, on the other hand, you have some reactions, comments and ideas, I’m open to suggestions.
Thank you. ~Kristie
Hi, Tracy,
Thanks for the thoughtful ideas. I definitely can re-vamp the sequences we do to move away from the people and dogs and toward the back of the room. I hadn’t thought about making the jumps lower – that makes sense. I can also make the sets even shorter – I thought 3 – 5 was okay, but I can see where making them short and sweet, especially if we move toward the “crowd,” is important.
I do try to toss the reward away from the group, but sometimes her exit line goes toward them. I can certainly curve it so it’s not a direct shot.>>The magic in the pattern games is that we teach them without the triggers first, then very very gradually add the triggers in – definitely work the game, but do it much further from anything worrisome for now.
Since we hadn’t done this game before, I didn’t know where the instructor was headed. We will absolutely play this at home and away from concerns for now. Thank you.
>>Will she play frisbee or chase balls at all there? If so, I would definitely incorporate that in the ‘ignore the people’ sections 🙂 Or, save the the higher value food for that.
I have tried tug toys, her frisbee, tennis balls, squeakers and even a flirt stick. Her reactions vary. Sometimes, she’s happy, and sometimes it bombs. I seem to get a better response when we are farther away from the people section, but sometimes she’s just not interested (very different from home!) When that happens, I grab her lotus, the lotus with the flappy parts, or one of her nibble treats, and reconnect that way. Food does seem to be our most favorable reward and connector in the “outside world”.
Thanks for your encouragement. As you know from the videos, she has a great time with agility at home. In the “real world” sometimes she has a great day, other times it’s a mixed bag. The good days are starting to outnumber the mixed ones, which is so great to see. She is so much fun and she HAS so much fun when she’s focused and happy. I want that for her and us.
Hi, Tracy,
Here is the video from today’s Saturday Session. Though I cut a lot out, this video is pretty long (5 minutes). It’s a bit of a mixed bag, and pretty representative of where she is now given the things that happened today. First, 2 new people and their dogs were added to today’s session, so that changed our usual little group of dogs who she also has class with. One dog in particular was tough for her. He’s a 2.5 year old white Aussie who is deaf. He barks and makes strange noises (you’ll hear them on the video, especially at the beginning.). His handler covered his crate after he first disturbed things, so when Keiko went to see what was going on, there was only a covered cage making noise. Hmmm.
Basically, you’ll see how she reacts to the new sounds and sights and stuff on th floor during her first turn. Then, her second turn is really nice. She did disconnect to check out the cat hole on the far door, but reconnected when I used our nibble-walking treat. (There are 2 cats who live in the center and are let out at night to exercise and take care of the mice. Another smell, sight and sound distracton.). After others had their second turns, the instructor had me try an exercise with Keiko, which also served as a demo for the others. This exercise was new to us, and it was interesting – a way to approach a scary thing. In this case, we were approaching the new deaf dog who was in a crate to the right of the line of lids. We did this row twice, and Keiko seemed quite comfortable with it. Then we had our third turn – and Keiko had really had enough. When I see that she’s had enough, should I even try to do something successfully before we leave or should I just maybe ask for a sit or a spin and leave on that note? I don’t mind not finishing a turn when she shows me she’s getting tired of something. I just want to be sure to end it in a positive manner. At the very end, the instructor wanted to demonstrate cavaletti work to the new people, and Keiko did a demo. She trotted happily next to me off leash. Then one of the other students (a woman Keiko and I have had class with) offered to go to the other end so Keiko could demo without me in the picture. You’ll notice she slowed on her way to the other end, but she went all the way, bless her, then came trotting back to me. A full morning! She visited with the dogs and people she knows after class just a bit. At home, she brought me tug toys and played a bit with her sisters, but was relatively quiet, which is normal for her after a class or training session away from home.
I’m looking forward to your “read” on this, reactions, and suggestions.
Thanks so much, ~Kristie
