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Maybe when the snows melts but the ground is frozen I can set up a camera with the highest FPS setting and get some footage of Beat with and without wraps, and experiment with leaving the dew claw exposed. It won’t be the same on grass rather than turf, but might show if she needs the dewclaw out. I don’t think the wraps will be comfortable to wear if they get wet as I think it bunches and digs into the skin, but as long as the ground is frozen and no wet grass, probably ok.
My way of trying to encourage good training AND taking away the awkwardness of having to ask the next handler to wait was to tell people outright about the 45 second rule: they have 45 seconds from the time my thumb goes up to start their run, NOT 45 seconds from the “go”. My thumb goes up when previous dog, handler and leash are all in the vicinity of the out gate, or out the gate if the course goes right past there which often happens in smaller rings. Plenty of time to get in, lined up and start even if they can’t come in while the dog is still running (although that’s ideal). That 45 seconds is completely off the table if either team is NFC! You get all the time you want to work at wherever you are in the process and can ask the person behind you not to come in stress free, but you can’t run for a Q until you are able to not make this request. Lowers everyone’s stress and encourages people to actually train it rather than live with not trusting their dog for their entire agility careers. I figure if I got Roots to the point that he can handle coming in like a normal dog, AND I’m spending quite a bit of Beat’s early days making sure she is a model citizen with this, then I have a leg to stand on making this request that people train their dogs for this!
Oh, and when I judged Friday, I included a spiel about GETTING INTO THE RING and not waiting by the gate for the go. I encouraged folks to do NFC runs and work on this routine if they were worried about their dogs. And people did it! I thought I was being annoying and nagging, but people said they were grateful for me explaining the rules around it and actually being open to folks working on THAT as their goal for their NFC runs.
The dewclaw question is more in reference to the fact that the wraps prevent them from using the dewclaw. We went to all these lengths proving that we should not remove dewclaws because of how important they are for the dog. Coming from a breed that was traditionally both tail docked and had dews removed, I think the dewclaw removal impacts their movement even more than tail docking does. Wrapping kinda mimics removing the dew claw, though of course they still have all those muscles in the forearm working to stabilize the carpus and elbow even if the toe can’t actually move. I’ve always thought dogs probably did use their dews to help stabilize them on dog walks and teeters too, although a friend (the judge for this trial) is currently experimenting with the Out N Out wraps for her BC as he was struggling to extend on the dog walk and in one session with the wraps he is offering striding patterns that he hasn’t been confident enough to try in a year (since inuring a different toe). So maybe the dew claw isn’t as important for that as I thought?
Ok, I was skeptical that this would work, but you flyball people might be on to something lol. I judged Friday and didn’t get a chance to do any real sequencing, but did some jump wraps with and without the wraps at the end of the day. After 2-3 reps, I could tell instantly she was more comfortable. Ran today in 2 Speedstakes runs and the first one I probably should have stuck to things with less speed since she’s never RUN with the wraps on. I think that’s why she was running around things (and jumping up and biting me, she’s done that at home too with the wraps on just with high arousal playing in the house, she’s still not a huge fan of having them put on), still adjusting to having them on and running full out for the first time. This was also her first time leaving a toy toy at the start line (I had one in my pocket as well) and no issue there. Her second run though I thought her jumping looked the best it ever has here, even with some slightly tougher sequences (it was combined Speedstakes, so senior level). So much more balanced and powering out of turns like she should. When I took the wraps off, you could totally see where the vet wrap was “burned” and abraded where the stop pad was!
One thing that FEELS wrong about the wraps is that her dewclaws are covered. Any thoughts about leaving a small hole for the dewclaw/toe to stick out?
For comparison, her last time here:
Her ring entry and exits were about perfect too! It helps that we mostly wait outside the main room and just come in when we are next to go, but she needed much less meatball-ing in those final moments waiting and stayed on the toy even when the next dog was starting. This is definitely a great location to set her up for success with that aspect.
Next trial opportunity is this weekend at that turf place where she crashed. I judge one day then trial the next, so I can play around with wrapping her feet the day that I judge. So far she thinks foot wrapping is evil! Then no trials until mid January, so will have some time to work up the height, as long as we aren’t covered in snow. Maybe a good weekend to add in some start line stays and do shorter sequences to minimize chances of slipping?
The martingale leash I have is a biothane one, a friend makes them. Being on dirt and in and out of filthy water troughs trialing at this farm made biothane a necessity! I’ll try fiddling around with the stopper to find a setting that I can get it on and off easily, but not have it fall off unplanned.Speaking of footing and slipping, I still just don’t like dirt. This is where we trial most and I’m part of the committee. We’ve gotten the watering/dragging down pretty well for warm weather trials and it’s ok, but now that it’s cold we can’t water or it just freezes and gets too hard. Plus we have to do it with a sprinkler and physically move the sprinkler every few minutes and inevitably get wet, so not highly practical when it’s 20 degrees out. So we just deal with the facility owner watering as she can during the week on the odd warmer day. It doesn’t lose moisture as fast in the winter, but it’s still not ideal for trials.
My goals for this one were for her to keep her brain while waiting and try to do some engaged chill, no barking or getting overly fixated on the dogs running, do some very short pieces with empty hands, practice an end of run procedure with empty hands and preplaced toy, get out of the ring without staring at the next dog to run, and to get the arousal back down a little before ultimately leaving the building. I did set up a camera to video us outside the ring, but it was crowded and not the best view. She waited fairly well, just one bark that I can remember and it was when I was distracted talking to someone. She could do pattern game or volume dial, but the “engaged chill” I had in mind for her was similar to what you do with your dogs where they have their front feet on you and you touch them somewhere, and she is happy with this at home and in low arousal, but once arousal goes up, she doesn’t really want to be touching.
The in the ring bit, I didn’t want to start at 1, so had to get her to the spot where I wanted to start, which confused her a bit on the first run, second time she had it figured out what was happening. I had to manage it heavily and work to keep her engaged and with me, but wouldn’t have been such a big deal if I hadn’t had to go so far? First run started a bit disconnected I think because of this. When we did do my whole planned sequence, I don’t know what was up with the weird jumping effort on that jump in the corner, and crashing the bar on the closing line. Hopefully just young dog making young dog jumping choices? Makes me nervous to up the height 😔. Second run started more connected, and this was the first time I think I’ve asked for a tight wrap mid-sequence in a trial (this was indeed the numbered course). Worked through that bit and then finished. Both times she was quite happy working with the toy toy in the finish area (I made a big deal of showing her where I placed it prerun), no going to it prematurely (which was my biggest concern). We worked on our mechanics of playing a bit, outing the toy to put the leash on and smoothly TIGHTEN THE MARTINGALE (takes two hands, so that’s a skill for me) then keep tugging. If I don’t tighten the stopper on the martingale it just flies over her head while she’s tugging which is not ideal since that’s likely to happen right when the next dog starts their run. Went out to a meatball followed by a snuffle mat with kibble and never once turned back to look at the next dog. So definite progress with that, but it’s definitely work and brain power on my part!
Thanks! I’ll try this a few times this week just around the house for her to acclimate to having it done. I actually judge at this facility Friday and then the designing judge takes over Saturday and I get to run for reals. So I can experiment a little before/after the trial with her on the turf.
“She is still jumping more upwards with her rear than pushing off with her rear over the jumps“
She definitely does this at home too though. Any time she isn’t jumping in full extension her hind legs are tucked. Not something I love seeing, but I’m waiting to see if she rounds out when jumps do go up? I have a trial at the place where she had the crash not this coming weekend but the one after. I’m not sure wrapping her feet will help since I don’t think the problem was lack of traction between her feet and floor but more the whole floor would move under her foot but I’m willing to try if you have a video of how to do it. It’s weird but when I watch the slow mo of Roots on that turf he looks more comfortable there than almost any dirt surface I’ve ever run him on (where I almost always see at least one “skitter” per run).
“You can get creative about adding noise (videos playing on your phone)“
Whoa, tried this this morning and it broke her brain. I messed up the camera angle and in most of the video we aren’t even on the screen (partly because we couldn’t get that close to the speaker!) Over the winter there’s a group of us that get together once a month or so to set up some international stuff to train on together. The whole point is to be able to talk over various handling options and give each other advice, so just working Beat on this wouldn’t be part of the spirit of the group, but if I can get my act together I might be able to work on some of the outside the ring behavior while others run. In the past I’ve found it hard to mentally run the adult dog (Roots) and then bring out the baby, as I have needed the time between turns to reset myself. I’ll just need the self control to do VERY short sequences for Roots and not push my brain too much running him (we could use the confidence boost any way!)
After tonight’s discussion, I feel like I need a flow chart for her pre and post run routines! Since most people seem to be struggling with things that Pick did (ring crew, leash runners, etc) I didn’t bother interrupting the flow of conversation to discuss her issues. Once we get in the ring and get running, she seems quite focused, not even caring about bar setters coming out while she’s finishing her NFC runs. But her waiting behavior I feel like is getting worse, as I got some barking at the last trial (and I’ll freely acknowledge that she had NOT fully decompressed from the Open, she’s getting that this week). Yes she takes cheese and can do pattern games and volume dial (for cheese, can’t stay on a toy if another dog is doing agility where she can see it) but where does it cross the line and those things become “entertaining the dog” the entire time? And to keep her from rehearsing staring at the next dog coming in, instead of trying to keep her on the toy post run, maybe just get the leash on and get the heck outta dodge far far from the ring to a decompression activity until she can regulate herself a bit better? I’d hate for putting the leash on to become punishing and I could see that happening, and I’m not sure if this just avoids the issue rather than train for it.
“And there was a LOT of chaos in those practice rings anyway“
I only used the ring once, with Pick. I was over in the jumps only section. I did one rep of that line of jumps, then went back to set him up for another rep, walked out to release and out of the corner of my eye noticed a handler with a LARGE breed dog meandering across the line of jumps right where I was about to run. Pick did not care in the least, I had meatballs in my pockets! But collisions with a large dog, for me or my dog, are generally less than ideal. I’ll probably just pass on using the practice rings in the future! I just don’t trust people!One NFC run done with empty hands (mostly). Similar turf to the last one she did on turf, however the pile is MUCH shorter and even my “hand on the turf” test didn’t move and dogs don’t have nearly the issues here that I see at the other one. I didn’t feel like she was slipping but I do think she avoided that tunnel because it was just too similar of a scenario to when she wiped out trying to save it making the turn to get in. I’m actually quite happy about that, that she showed a bit of self preservation! With experience I think she’ll figure out how to sight up the tunnel entry and make the turn. I didn’t see any dogs have bad tunnel entries on this, so I think it was just her trying to avoid a crash like before and not trusting that she had traction to accomplish it.
I didn’t have time to set up a tripod to video her outside the ring waiting to go in, but we were just the third or fourth dog to go and we followed two pretty speedy BorderPaps. She was able to do some tricks and cues and take cheese, but definitely quite fixated on the dogs running in between, so I’d say “engaged chill” was NOT happening. She barked once at them. I don’t think she would stay engaged with a toy with the dogs running. After her run, she played on the way to go get her leash and ignored all the people coming in to set bars, but as soon as the next dog started, I struggled to get her to stay engaged with the toy (she was leashed and outside the ring by that point). Which brings me to what I decided to work on this weekend at home- prepping for in and out work. I’d like for her NOT to be one of those dogs who can’t stand nearby while waiting her turn, and not one of those dogs that I have to tell people after us not to start until she has a leash on! (I feel strongly that if either of those things are true, then working through them in NFC runs is fine as long as the dog is safe enough to do so and I give plenty of leeway to NFC teams that use NFC runs to actively work on this, which is where we are I think.)
So I set up the two stations that you used in the advanced remote reinforcement game. I modified it to use a toy at the second station. Since I do UKI, no USDAA, and no ISC until she’s spayed (maybe none at all) I can come in the ring with the toy and have it taken with her leash, so I thought it would be important for her to get used to it being on the ground and available. I also don’t want to be the person who complains about the leash/toy being placed too close to obstacles mid course just because the course happens to pass the out gate, so I’d like to be as clear as possible about when she’s allowed to go for it, and with past dogs I’ve used the jump into my arms trick to signal end of run and then send them to their leash/toy. I also need to practice getting the leash on and remembering to TIGHTEN THE MARTIGALE so it doesn’t come over her pointy little head as she tugs coming out of the ring, since this is right when the next dog is likely to start and I don’t want to suddenly realize I don’t have her on a leash! Thoughts on how to adjust this routine to keep her engaged, not focusing on the other dogs, and keep everyone safe of course?
Got back from FL early this morning and Beat insisted on having some fun this afternoon.
Added step 2 of the remote reinforcement cue, adding some behaviors and I didn’t think she would have any issues with it, however one interesting tidbit was that I was doing it with the bait bag and food on a chair, but she CLEARLY said she preferred the toy that was up on the dog walk behind the camera. So I listened and played it for the toy. I didn’t want to move the camera, but didn’t feel comfortable that she wouldn’t kill herself grabbing the toy off the chair so put it on the ground. Didn’t see any issues with that with her and honestly with UKI allowing the toy to be placed with the leash this is probably more realistic. I used her “you can grab the toy” cue since it was accessible to her. I did practice step 1 with this with it up on the dog walk and used the “prize” cue. Since she clearly has a preference, should I use separate toy and food cues for this if the toy is up out of reach?
And then we worked the tunnel threadle sequence and added in doing it “empty handed”. I had to move forwards more than I thought I would to get her to take the tunnel once it was in sequence, but we got it eventually.
And thanks again for the virtual hugs at the Open! In case you didn’t guess, Pick did go to his new home in Savannah GA on Saturday afternoon. It was a jumble of emotions all week from them changing their mind, to changing back… I had to put aside any hurt feelings and ultimately decided to do what was best for the dog, and that is to have a home without Roots. Not sure if he will still do agility, but he’ll be living his best life doing nosework which he loves!
And that leaves me with what to do about the trial I entered Friday in NH. I am not running Roots as he needs a break, and I’m mentoring a new judge on the SC classes. Thought I would have both young dogs that could use some mileage, and Pick could do the jumping classes but now no Pick. There’s all of ONE Speedstakes course, which is all Beat is eligible for. It’s a new place for her, I haven’t even been there in years. Try running the course with empty hands? Can always pull out the toy and run with it if her brain is exploding. She’s doing 14” at home mostly now, but I’ll stay at 12” for this trial again. There was NO WAY I was running her in the practice ring at the Open as her eyeballs flew out of her head seeing and hearing dogs in tunnels. We tried to work on some things ringside, but my brain was a bit distracted with the Pick scenario and was way too tired to lug the tripod along to the ring to video any of it. It didn’t really seem to go all that well, but again, I was tired and distracted.
Hadn’t done any sequencing in a while other than at the trial, so thought I’d give her a little session before we leave. No real issues with doing it empty hands I don’t think. That opening jump was DIRECTLY into sunlight for me (some good practice for me at the Open for early morning runs in those outdoor rings!) so we ran 1-2 where I was completely blind to what she was doing on all of these. Only sequence that was hard was the last one with the tight rear cross. I tried to go deep to 4 to be able to show motion to 5 parallel to her path to then be able to cross it, but there was no way. After we were done, I walked it not going with her to 4, but doing a forward send and then moving towards the rear cross line on 5, basically perpendicular to her line. I wouldn’t be able to cross her line before she took off for 5, but I think the motion is better. Would be interested if she would still be able to commit to 5 with that amount of pressure but probably won’t get the chance to try it.
I *think* we are in the same group for the Open, though that might not mean much depending on what heights are together in what rings. And free time… what free time? lol
I may get in a training session Friday among packing chaos, maybe not. And Monday is the planned day to meet Pick’s new owner so if I somehow make it onto the chat that night from the road, I will have literally just handed him over and will be quite a whirlwind of emotions I’m sure!And Beat also got some NFC runs, but nothing really earth shattering. My focus was on prepping Roots for the Open and of course Pick’s final runs. Still running her at 12” and “just like home” with toy in my hand. The first one was an open/combined speed stakes and had a few thing above our skill set as far as being able to send and go, so broke that down quite a bit. Layering was a piece of cake lol. Then that closing line she couldn’t find that last jump, something we haven’t worked on that much, big long closing lines. Throwing the toy in this situation was challenging as I didn’t want it to go over or under the fence or have her ram right into the fence going for it. Second run was beginner novice and much more within her skill set, at least at 12”. But the closing line was pretty much the same so I tried having someone with a second toy, which Beat wouldn’t even look at. As my friend put it she kinda went “hey ma’am you dropped something”. So not sure this strategy will really work without practicing outside of a trial? Thoughts?
