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If you couldn’t tell, I’m not a fan of agility tv either, but just wanted to make sure I wasn’t missing something with not having had a herdy breed before. As you mentioned, a different breed doing that same behavior would be looked at very differently. And as I mentioned I DID find an application for a similar thing with a terrier. I will now be able to feel justified not participating in it.
“I think it is an unhealthy place for herding brains as well. Or any type of brains 🙂 And as far as I know, there is no decompression/reset that is associated with watching exciting things move, so there is not a lot of value there. There is a definite ramp up in arousal associated with it though, but not in a direction that I think is useful or healthy, as you mentioned.”
I guess the one thing that I can see about how I’ve seen it used is that for the visually stimulated herdy dogs, being asked to stay fully engaged with the handler and NOT watching would actually cause more frustration and the level of arousal the handler would have to provide in order to compete with the movement would wind up increasing the arousal too far and certainly be annoying for others ringside and fatiguing for all. So it’s used as sort of a replacement for engaged chill. If you can “chill” and be disengaged, but still engage when I need you, you can watch. The reason I called it a reinforcer is more when it’s used as a premack- engage with me, take a cookie (which the dog would likely not find reinforcing around that kind of movement) and I will release you back to your agility tv. I HAVE used a similar version of this with my 3 year old while hiking. He had a tendency to be a screaming maniac (can we see a theme here?) at the slightest rustle of leaves that might signal a critter to be chased. Asking him to fully engage with me (heads up heeling, doing tricks, pattern game, etc) would be exhausting to do on an entire hike and “engaged chill” (in this instance, just walking with me on a loose leash when the critter is present, he does do a version of engaged chill for most of the walk when no critter is present which is mooch along sniffing the ground on his long line) is just not possible. So I did teach him a “watch tv” cue, meaning he may stare at the moving furry thing all he wants until asked to do otherwise. I may ask for him to look at me or do a simple behavior and then send him back to watch tv. If I do get pulling at the end of the leash or vocalizing, I need to change strategies, but find I rarely need to use these any more as playing this game took the conflict and frustration away. So it replaces “engaged chill” when he just can’t offer that, but certainly just walking with me and ignoring the wildlife would be even better. So maybe that can be a place for it? When engaged chill isn’t going to happen and full engagement isn’t totally appropriate either? But whenever able, engaged chill is better? Because as you noted, I agree about it being a waste of bandwidth and may contribute to depletion (certainly if I have a long walk with an unusual amount of stimulators, my 3 year old’s ability to quietly play this game dwindles towards the end, but it’s either play this or he doesn’t get to walk at all because without it walks are way too stressful for all!)
Had a training party with some friends today and Beat got to hang out while other dogs ran. She’s definitely turned on by watching dogs running these days, but she was still able to do her pattern game, some hand touches, and sending to a Klimb all on leash. Towards the end I even did some sit stays and releases to a thrown cookie with the leash dropped and she was great. So YAY!
I wanted to get your take on allowing dogs who get very visually stimulated to watch the action. She’s my first that has shown interest in watching (other than my current 3 year old who as a 10 week old puppy SCREAMED bloody murder the first time he saw a dog go through a tunnel, and it was over a year before I could have him in the building when agility was going on so NO watching for him). So far with Beat I can see that she does find it highly arousing and she could end up over threshold if I allowed it for too long a duration, but so far she can watch quietly and is still responsive to cues and will happily leave watching to work with me when asked (on leash, I did not dare take the leash off and have her figure out how to push the gate open into the ring). I know people who have actually put watching on cue and will use it as a reinforcer. Opinions on this? With my terriers I have always felt that it just wasn’t a healthy place for their brains, but maybe different for herdy types?
Tried some threadle slice work and she could get it pretty easily on my right but not on my left. Wanted to see what you thought about helping her out with that.
So here is the next attempt at volume dial. She seemed to do just fine on this one. She was definitely less overstimulated right at the start. The last one she was already tongue out, eyes glazed before I even started the session. This one she seemed engaged and ready. The one thing I changed was while I was setting up for this one (camera, cookies, crating the other dogs, etc) I gave her the toy to run around with and the last one she was bouncing around like a lunatic with anticipation, she might have even been wrestling with her terrier brothers. So while not realistic (can’t let her run around with a toy for 5 minutes before every agility run) being completely unemployed while anticipating work puts her way over the top.
At the end I also remembered to test whether she could jump into my arms while I held the toy, and no extra hands needed for that! No different really than catching a disc in my hand when jumping into my arms.
And then we tried some threadle wrap on a “barrel”. Again, better turning left than right. This is also her first time doing any sort of cued behavior from a sit stay. Wasn’t going to do it from a stay, but she offered one at one point and with the tiny space, it was easier than a cookie toss, and probably a good place to start with one since I didn’t have to go far. We now have several inches of snow, so we’re probably stuck inside (or at borrowed facilities when I’m lucky) until March. 😞
Yeah, she reminds me of my first JRT, Marron, who did not like being touched when she was working. I always called her my “sight hound on stumpy legs” for the number of whippet traits she had (and she’s why I adore whippets to this day!) The rest of my terriers have been big doofuses about body contact.
With the volume dial game, her best one was cuing her to the nearby dog bed so you’re totally right about having a big visual target. Hand target was one of the first I tried but I got VERY half hearted attempts, like a step towards the hand before stopping to stare at the toy while still 2’ away from the hand (maybe from some of the strike a pose work where she’s been cued to the reward for not quite touching the target in the hand?) She could do “sit” because I think it resembled the start line stay exercise, but the point was to have more active tricks that upped the arousal rather than static ones. I could try her jumping up behavior, but did not that day. It’s a little hard to do with a toy in my hand, but I’d want her to learn to do so at some point (as it’s a good disc dog behavior and I’d love to get into disc dog with her, the Rat boys think disc dogging is dumb). I have a cued “feet” behavior for putting her front feet on my leg, also one I’d love for her to be able to do as part of a ringside routine, but pretty sure right now she will think I’m nuts to ask her to do that with a toy in my hand. Should I try a few reps of all of those with food to prime the pathway a bit, then switch to a toy for 1-2 reps, then back to food before she goes “lights on no one home”?
And yes, that is a dusting of snow on top of the tunnel. And as far as noise, I still cannot figure out what that buzzing sound is that sounds like something being electrocuted. I hear it all the time in my videos and yet have never heard anything that sounds like that while out in the yard. The Amazon trucks around here have a similar back up noise, but different enough that I don’t think it’s that.
Attempted some of the tunnel threadle exercise this morning. This was two short sessions (one side, a break for a few minutes, then the other). She got it better turning left (her stronger side) and turning right we had to be pretty much even with the tunnel opening. The one rep towards the end when she spun in a circle and tried to go in the side was actually pretty funny- she was trying so hard! It also went better when I was patient about waiting for her to turn and look at the tunnel before releasing- go figure. She was also struggling with the collar grab, I think it was when I had the toy in my hand. I tried to make the collar grab VERY brief and that still didn’t help. But in looking at the video if I got rid of the toy, she could do it. Which goes along with what I found when I tried the volume dial game the other day. With a toy in my hand she really can’t respond to quite a number of cues that I would have thought she was fluent in. Thoughts on working through that?
The wing nearly falling was her stepping on the leg, and I think she did eventually put 2 and 2 together to realize that was her bad (not bad as in naughty, but meaning I think she realized she was in control of it, and was just a whoops, not a random thing falling on her) but yes, I liked her pretty chill response to it.
I have two of those jump bumps, so yes, she can have a 6’ bar for the exercise next time! Or should I place them side by side so it’s still like a 5’ bar?
And I would totally have guessed CB to be 22”+!
So I tried threadle slices again today, though camera was set up terribly. Posting it any way, mostly because that first rep was pretty funny. She tried to head straight for the toy and I giggled and she was like “oh, I forgot something” and came back and touched the target. And I used get it and toy toy interchangeably, no stressing and she got the context any way. 🤪
Also started the backside slice exercise, which went pretty smoothly (finally an exercise that didn’t make me feel like I’ve never trained a dog before!) Indeed my jump bump is very short, only 3’ which is very evident in this exercise but I think fine while there’s very little speed coming in. If she was a pony of a BW (like CB size) it might be too easy to skip it, but I think it’s ok given her current small size (not yet 18” tall).
I was able to go rescue this out of the recently deleted files. I didn’t even want to watch the rest of this session since her brain wasn’t in it at all (first attempt at the head turn exercise). You can’t see much but you can hear her. The cookie tosses towards the distraction she took a looong time gazing in his direction. It seems mostly alarm barking to me, I don’t think she actually registered who it was she was barking at. It feels like a BC flavored meltdown.
As far as noise, I think the video enhances certain sounds. The music is generally up just loud enough that I can hear it while working as long as there isn’t other noise. In some other videos traffic noise makes it sound like the vehicles are REALLY close but I’m at least 200-300’ from roads. Any noise that she seems to be reacting to I THINK is the rustling of birds under those bushes which the video definitely does not pick up. Because BIRDS! They might fly away and that’s exciting! So it’s the tiny little noise (and somewhat intermittent/sudden noise) predicting movement that she’s picking up on.
And as far as markers, yeah I had always thought they used context as well. Sort of like when I do fitness training, I don’t generally say much at all by way of markers and my dogs still somehow figure out when I want them to stay in place and when they should follow the lure no problem. So it’s definitely freeing to be able to focus on fewer markers! I’ll have to give it some thought as to what ones to really keep since this attempt at having a bunch is just not working and is just frustrating us both.
What you said above all does make sense, it just doesn’t make it easy. Like the meltdown she had this morning when we were out working in the yard in the few minutes I had before work, and my boyfriend left the house for work, sending her into a barking frenzy. I totally understand it’s normal, but I was planning a low distraction session and spent two whole minutes getting her brain back instead. Meltdowns aren’t her norm, I’m not super worried, but she’s had enough of them that I really question if I’m handling them right, and they are mostly about people. Terriers can have meltdowns too, but they usually save them for big important stuff, not random little things like she does!
Two sessions from yesterday, first attempt at threadle slice foundations. This one left her very confused I think. Placing the toy on the ground and then feeding her for ignoring it seems to make her think she shouldn’t go for the toy at all. Or she just couldn’t find it and needed some motion from me towards it to get her to go to it. One other session where I’ve tried this she wound up trying to bite the target in my hand looking for her toy. I’m getting frustrated trying to use the different marker cues: tug is get it from my hand, toy toy is get it on the ground, but I’m crappy at using the right one, sometimes nothing comes out because I can’t remember the word, and even when I do use the right one, she doesn’t seem to have any clue what the difference is. Is it even worth continuing to have two different cues for the toy? (Plus a third, “get it” if I throw the toy)
And then something a little faster and more fun, more handling around my “barrel” with the preplaced toy. It felt way messier live but actually funny to watch the video. Again, I’m not sure how positive she felt about this session, does she actually understand the concept? Yes, she’s (mostly) leaving the toy and following the handling to the barrel, but does she actually understand the cue that means get the toy or is she just grabbing it (out of desperation) because I’m not specifically calling her away or stopping her in any way?
And today we worked at the town green again, leashed and in a somewhat enclosed space around a flag pole. The benches and shrubs partially blocked her view of any one who might be approaching so I could pick up the leash if needed before she knew any one was there. Left is still her better direction and I think that side looks good, right is still tough.
I guess a nice little segue into my next question is exactly what you just commented above… yay! I get to practice in lots of different environments. I think I’ve identified a really big distraction for her as being things that enter the environment during a working session. Once she is an a location and has sort of taken it all in, she’s pretty focused. Like the barn aisle I worked in the other day (don’t think I posted it here but on my FB page). Pony heads hanging out of stall doors (which honestly I’ve never seen a dog NOT at least look twice at disembodied, floating horse heads the first time they see them) and she’s running under them like they aren’t even there. But if something (human, dog, bird, etc) enters a space unexpectedly she can’t stay focused, hence why I was VERY careful in the entryway of the training building. I understand it’s totally normal for dogs to find sudden environmental changes distracting. But I struggle a little to find a way to “slice” that practically. I tried tonight to have one dog crated, work her a little, release the dog out of the crate to a snuffle mat, then work her some more but I feel like that is a very different scenario as I am breaking off her engagement, bringing the new thing in, then re-engaging her. Natural environments I won’t have any control over the distraction as far as distance or how long we might be sitting there waiting for something. Thoughts on how to “slice” that safely when I don’t have a class environment? Clearly the middle of the town green from a few weeks ago where she wound up running up to a stranger and jumping up to lick her face (who greeted her warmly right back thank goodness!) wasn’t the right answer!
I sort of call the “get out” the “shower curtain” maneuver, but it doesn’t have any sort of official verbal or visual cue, just make a wall out of your legs and arms to force them to turn away, shout the verbal for the obstacle and pray lol.
Here is some of the strike a pose with a jump bump. Two sessions, one in my yard this morning and the other this afternoon in a small entryway at another agility training facility where I was seeing a patient. (Which is why I had to do some taking her by the collar as other people might have come in at any moment.) Once you get to having the toy on the ground, when do you cue them to get it? They don’t have to touch the target any more, but I also don’t think letting them just take the toy without a cue is good rehearsal either. In the first session she was stepping on the jump bump a bit, which I presume is fine at this stage? She didn’t in the second session but there was also less speed.
Another chilly session. I think we finally have the collection cue in place so she is at least driving in to my side and coming around the correct side, maybe not always the tightest, but acceptable I think. It’s hard to decel any earlier.
Then did the next stage of the rocking horse exercise and it did go better with more distance and motion.
And finally the get out (or push as I’m calling it). Not sure I have any sort of cue for this currently with my dogs? But I’ll give it a go with at least teaching the foundation.
https://youtu.be/HAQNIf1LLMo?si=jqAOlppEV_e27Wkr
I think we finally cracked the wrapping exercise. This was our first try at rocking horse after doing some unvideoed work with wrapping and handling to a toy. I realized on that last session that my position needs to be more visible to her as she comes around and also off of her line more. You can see the first rep of this I forget and stand right in the middle of the objects and if I had tried to sequence these I don’t think we would have been able to have a “hallmark” moment until way too late.
I assume at this stage it’s perfectly fine to just swap hands that you carry the toy in so you aren’t trying to send them with the hand you have the toy in? I feel like ideally we get there, but probably too much for a puppy?
