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Thanks for the feedback. Two comments/questions:
First, re: the amount of time I am tugging. He is having some major teething right now, and a couple of weeks ago kind of took a break from wanting to tug for a few days, so we concluded that it must not feel good. We’ve tugged with a lot of different things, but for now, I am using the softest, gentlest tug toys we have. I get your point about not stopping play too quickly……but I’m hesitant to get too crazy with the tugging at present. Any thoughts with that context in mind?
Second, re: the sit or down coupled with the out. He has really solid sits and downs as default behaviors, because I taught manding to the whole litter while they were still at the breeders, because of our Cheerio games, etc. He will do these behaviors on their respective verbal cues, but he offers them for attention all the time. I’ve been viewing it as his way of showing me that he is ready for the next rep, so to speak. So, from that perspective, I like that he offers a sit or down when he is outing his toy. I’m open to what you’ve suggested, but I need some help understanding your thought process about why we should decouple these behaviors. Does it make a difference to you to know that he offers these in lots of contexts and not just when outing the toy?
Thanks,
LyndieHere’s video of the toy reward strategies from week 1 with a cup of reps of food/toy combos at the end.
Initially, I was going to use a separate verbal (grab it) from my food verbal (aye-aye-aye) for the moving toy, but after one rep, I realized that I needed ti stick with aye-aye-aye for me, so I did. So nonmoving food is yum-yum, nonmoving toy is bite, then moving is food or toy is aye-aye-aye and thrown food or toy is get-it.
We’ve done a fair amount of two toy switching and out games, so I integrated your lesson content into those games here. As you’ll see, he’s game for all of it!
Looking forward to your feedback!
Lyndie
Wow! I think you should frame this response. There is a lot packed in there, and I will be processing it for days if not years and possibly lifetimes. I am in a reinforcement vortex right now in which all I read and think about is reinforcement, and I “know” less with every second that passes.
It is sometimes hard to put a fork in it, so to speak, and just train my puppy, knowing full well that I’m going to break him and then unbreak him. So, thank you for telling me your examples of what you don’t recommend. I could totally relate, as Wingman has a stellar recall on a hand-going-in-pocket cue. LOL.
For the “coming in hot” part of the stationary toy reward, I think I’m going to incorporate this into the recall practice in fenced areas that we do every day. Moonshot is accustomed to getting a cookie from my stationary hand at my side when he comes in hot on a recall, sometimes sliding into a sit and sometimes getting the treat immediately. I’ll start using my “yum yum” verbal here to tell him when he can have the cookie.
And I’ll start having the toy at my side and saying “bite.” I think he will get this quickly, because it’s a small tweak of a game he already loves. Video soon, I hope!
Thank you,
LyndieI’m stumped.
In the Week 1 segment on food rewards, you were adamant that we should say our verbal and then deliver/offer the food reward. But in the Week 1 segment on toy rewards, especially for the non-moving toy on person (bite), you seem to present reward and then say the verbal.
I’m struggling with this conceptually because Moonshot is great at getting a moving toy and then “outing” that toy on command, but I don’t think he understand in the stationary case when it is OK to take the toy, so I need to shape it.
Why is the order of the steps different for food and toys? Shouldn’t they be the same when teaching from the beginning?
Thanks,
LyndieHere is some video of Moonshot’s first session with the different food reward procedures. I am using these verbals:
Tossed Food – Get it
Food in Stationary Hand – Yum Yum
Following Food in Moving Hand – Aye Aye AyeI learned today that my puppy, unlike every other Lab I’ve ever had, will refuse to eat a piece of cheese that has significant dirt sticking to it. Fascinating! I edited out a few minutes of him analyzing cheese and deciding not to eat it when it was too dirty — about 3 reps.
I’m loving his engagement, which has been present from the beginning. My clicker timing, however, was all over the place. Eventually, I stopped clicking because I felt my timing was too muddy to help. My success, though, was to limit my tendency to add extraneous verbals in the form of cheering on the dog.
Looking forward to your comments!
Thanks,
LyndieThanks!
Phyzz’s hierarchy is pretty clear and fixed at this point, regardless of environment.
1. Chase the mama
2. Jolly or crackle ball
3. Bungee tug with ball on end
4. Chicken
5. Cheese
6. Other cookies (but I’ve had to make them valuable in high intensity environments through pairing)Meagan and I drive to Jax Wed am. We will be staying at an Airbnb close to the trial site, but I have an rv spot in my name for my friends’ who are coming as our “support people.”
See you soon!
I worked on the reinforcement hierarchy exercise tonight, and I realized that for Moonshot, I don’t really have a complete rank ordering of five things in each category yet. I’m thinking that this is pretty understandable given his young age. We’re still introducing lots of new things. He is pretty much “game” for everything, but preferences are emerging, some due to apparent natural preferences, and some due to value that I’ve built through play/training and/or peer pressure or competition with other dogs.
So, for example, we play a “Cheerio game” in which I sit with a container of cheerios or kibble or diced veggies – basically something fairly low calorie and not especially high value. Typically, this is when I’d like to chill and drink some coffee or wine without my hooligans demanding more vigorous play. And they get a Cheerio when they offer me a true settled down. The competition among them is so fierce that the low value Cheerios have become insanely high value, so it is pretty easy to get all of them offering downs.
Anyway, my real questions is “does it make sense that I don’t know Moonshot’s full hierarchy yet?” I feel like I’m still on the first chapter, so to speak.
An update for you. We have not fallen off the face of the earth. As we worked on the reinforcement loop stuff, it became obvious to me that I need to take some pressure off both of us from a training plan standpoint and just focus on our relationship and play. We’ve been doing lots of that, and I have learned a lot about what makes WM tick in the process.
I continue to follow along with class materials, but we are clearly marching to our own somewhat undefined timeline right now. We are happy and making progress. We will probably sign up for Part 3 as auditors, given all of this.
Just wanted to explain so you’d know it isn’t anything about the class per se. Just trying to focus on listening to my dog and learning to speak his language.
Thanks,
LyndieStrike a Pose
OK…WM was already pretty awesome in yesterday’s session, but as usual, his clumsy human needed some work. I feel like this is a big improvement, and I’m so hopeful that you will agree! But tell me if not, because we have to keep it real here in Labradorland.
He struggled a bit starting at 0:38, when I tossed the start cookie on a shallower line. I’m not seeing another explanation for his not coming in there, but you probably will, and I can’t wait to see what you think!
I’ve edited out a bit between reps. Hopefully, this shows you enough. I just try to make my videos as brief as possible because Fancy Gap upload speeds make me crazy.
Thanks,
LyndieStrike a Pose Proofing:
Hi. I’m cherry picking the games for ones that I think he can succeed at while we continue to work on the reinforcement loops, wrapping, etc. This one seemed up his alley.
I was squeezing this training session in between work and approaching rain, so I kept the set up simple and used a MM for my proofing distraction rather than setting up the tunnel. He LOVES the MM, so this is probably making it a bit more difficult than if I used the tunnel.
In some of the reps where he didn’t come into me, I realized that I wasn’t keeping my chest open enough, and I adjusted.
When I do this, given that we are practicing the come in and go out like in a serp or threadle, I should be turning him away from me to finish instead of what I did, shouldn’t I? So, in the first set of reps where he started to my left (right on video), I was finishing by rotating him around me to my right. Afterwards, I realized that I should probably have continued traveling in a straight line or even showed him handling to go away from me after passing the wing. Is this correct, or am I making something out of nothing?
Thanks,
LyndieThank you! This is incredibly helpful!
Regarding intentional starts, you’re right. I did adjust after a few reps to try to better set him up for success.
My “ai-ai-ai” verbal is supposed to be for food from my hand, and “get it” is supposed to be for a reward thrown ahead. In our previous session, as you noted, I was using ai-ai-ai too early, and it was confused with the “Yes” marker for the wrap. I am noticing these timing issues and working to clean them up. At this point, because I’ve been adding some new verbals into the mix, some are instinctive and some aren’t quite there yet. But I do understand and agree with what you’re saying, and am working toward clarity.
Your feedback on what to do when he says “nope!” is so helpful. I’ve been torn about this in these moments. I don’t like feeling like I’m pleading with him for engagement. I just don’t think that is productive for our relationship. I have had some success with switching things up, but not 100% of the time. And that “finish on a positive” note adage has been getting me stuck. I’ve been thinking about all of this a lot lately and how Phyzz and I have marched to our own timeline in a lot of ways over the years and he is still very competitive. This helps me to not sweat it when WM’s training doesn’t always progress in a “linear” fashion.
Re: your comment about WM maybe being hot and tired. I have been noticing this and I do think he’s not yet acclimated to the gorgeous warm weather we are having. All of my Labs before him are from 100% English lines, but lines with multiple generations raised in the South. Wingman came from a kennel in Ohio and his sire is only about 1 generation away from a direct import from England. There is some scientific evidence about epigenetics contributing to variation in heat tolerance phenotypes among animals, such that tolerance for heat could be enhanced over time through multigenerational exposure. With WM, acclimation to heat may take longer to develop if he doesn’t have as much of a genetic foundation for heat tolerance.
Thanks again for your feedback and help. I really appreciate it.
Lyndie
ZigZag
Some zigzag games with a little bit of a stay! 🙂 Such a good boy!
Reinforcement Loops
Here’s video from another session with more intentional lineup/start and showing you some full loops. I’m deliberately doing more reps with left turns than right.
Reinforcement Loops (with wingless upright)
Here’s video from a session with the wingless upright.
