Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
HI Tracy,
I think all of that makes sense. Here is my question based on experiences along the way.
>>Think of it more as pairing: pairing the environment at the start of the course with the ball, so the environment becomes more exciting because exciting things happen there 🙂 That will change the reflexive response, which will appear outwardly as being more ‘up’.
What do I do if the pairing doesn’t work? If I toss her the ball and she ignores it because of how she feels? It has been known to happen when her tank is on the empty side at a show. Have I created a new issue if this happens?
I am just trying to once again put pieces together that are going to make sense to her. Some of what I see doesn’t make sense to me, even from the scientific/behavioral stand point, but it does in her little brittany, so I am just trying to help her. So thankful that you are taking the journey with me. 🙂
Amy
Thanks, Tracy!
I am getting better at being organized at the reward station. Our next USDAA will be late June. I will see if Scott Lovelis will let me throw the ball in the ring. When to reward will be the trick with her. Thoughts? I sent you video from the weekend, just because I wanted to share and see if you think she is doing better. 🙂 I don’t want to inadvertently reward the down attitude, but would love to make the experience more rewarding up front for her. I know you say to slice thin and reward approximation, but I am just not sure what I am rewarding depending on when the ball comes out. 3-5 obstacles and exiting to the reward has not helped in the past, but that doesn’t mean it wouldn’t now.
I don’t think Tango hates agility or even trialing. If I am understanding what you have been teaching us, I think the ring entry/start line has inadvertantly become a stressor for her and I now have her programmed to respond in a negative way both physiologically and behaviorally. My previous attempts to change her mental state may have only added stress as they were all about performing tricks. The more relaxed offering of behavior mixed with the concentrated but very limited tricks of barking (which she will also offer) and a few spins and hand touches may be helping her because they are helping me relax too. 😉
Amy
Hi Tracy,
Well, I just typed you a nice long update from our weekend and when I went to submit it, it dumped me and told me I needed to log in. (waaaahhhh!)
Tango did well this weekend. We had some things going for us in that it was USDAA where we could play fetch off leash before our runs, no ring gates – just chutes, and nice open field so no crowding.
Her first run was good and our warm up to start line was very good. She trotted into the ring looking at me, jumped up on me thinking I had a treat in my hand (No indication on my part that I did), looked me in the eye and we left. She had a great run (no ball for this one).
Second run my timing for arriving at the ring was not ideal. I forgot her second ball to take in the ring as I use one to cover her jackpot of treat in the cup holder on the chair. She likes to push the ball out to get at the treats when we are done running and she can see and smell them before we go into the ring. Helps get her get revved up too. Bad handler for forgetting the second ball. Entered the ring at a trot. Got stalled on the start line, but while her head and ears went down, she didn’t turn her head away and was able to give me a side eye, which I marked. She gave me a more direct look and we left. She picked up her pace quickly even though she wasn’t quick off the start line.
Overall, I think we are making progress in the right direction. 🙂 Even Kodie and Barbi noted that she seemed happier and better on the start line. The pattern games and foot targeting are helping a lot and I am doing short ‘porridge heating’ which keeps her more relaxed while still trying to reach the optimal mental state. She can sit in the chair that is her reward station ahead of time for connected relaxation too. There is no magic bullet with her, but just seeing her more relaxed and happier walking into the ring is really nice. 🙂
Amy
Thanks, Tracy! Sounds like we are on the same page. 🙂
Just as a side note: It is still amazing to me, given that I am a last minute Lucy to the line, how many times Tango and I get stuck waiting. Its is not a ton of times, but at least 3-6 times per agility season.
Amy
Thanks. So, if I play all these games outside the ring or even on the training field at home most of the time, she is good. The question is what do I bring to the start line? I have mostly worked really hard to get her in a really good/high state of mind before we enter the ring. I almost never ask for a stay before an obstacle in training and once in a blue moon if I really need a head start in the ring. I have learned to handle almost anything without a head start with her. LOTS of verbals – Haha. I just did the cartoon mash up thing to get her attention and then told her to do the thing. It was super short needless to say. We are running USDAA this weekend – FEO. My goal is to see if I can get her second run to be as good or almost as good as her first. We will see what happens.
We will keep building games at home during the summer break too. 🙂 So many games to learn to play that maybe I can just build a tool trunk big enough for her to be happy rotating through games. 🙂
Amy
Hi Tracy,
I am sorry to be the difficult student here and I was just going to skip the lesson on cartoon mash up as Tango and I have done that one before, but I thought since it has been a while that I would try it again. The first round she actually perked up and left the start line with great drive (one obstacle and reward). Typical Tango though, the second rep (different and less stressful obstacle), she turned her head. This is why I quit doing it along the way in our trialing several years ago. I confess to being frustrated, not with her, but with the very typical I can use it once or maybe even a few times and then it doesn’t work any more. Any thoughts or feed back? She got a HUGE reward/party after our first rep today, so there is no reason other than memory that she would turn away on the second rep. Hmmmm.
Amy
Hi Tracy,
Sorry for the delay in response. I need to go to an agility trial so I can rest on the weekend. 😉 The property is a busy place in the spring.
All of what you said makes sense. I am working on shaping her hitting my foot with her feet. Once I can build that into a full on behavior, I think it will be a great tool for her. Yes, she has always likes using her feet to touch things or get a reaction. She also seems to like to bark most of the time. If I can capitalize on the feet and bring barking to a higher level for her, we may be able to make some progess. 🙂
Looking forward to tonight’s chat.
Amy
Hi Tracy,
Yes, the T&T was at the reward station. 🙂
As for noise, regular noises like teeters, helicopters, planes, even gun shots don’t really bother her. I know she has to process them, but they aren’t deflating like someone yelling or sounding angry. If anyone gets mad at their dog around her, I know I will have a hard time helping her recover. The click of the magnetic or spring loaded gates bothers her because one bumped her in the rear once and now they all bite. I’m just being a brat and leaving them open for someone else to close if it bothers them. My dog isn’t leaving the ring, so I am not worried about it.
As for the ball, it can be a primary reward in training and will even bring her up if she isn’t really poopy. It can be a bridge if she is luke warm or better. If she is unhappy, she won’t play at all. So, if I take her in the ring and get her to do a few jumps and her demeanor is improving with each obstacle, the ball is a great reward. It is the whole thing of what to do on the start-line when the wheels are coming off the bus for whatever reason. When her tank is used up, it obviously takes a lot less for her to unravel than when she isn’t depleted.
So, here is a side note that you would think I would have observed a long time ago given that Tango is almost 10, but I guess I never thought quite far enough down the trail. I have always known that tight turns or technical starts are demotivating for her. So, we have a premier jumpers course on the field that I ran in Las Cruces a few weeks ago. Handler motion is minimal, which we know isn’t a good motivator for Tango. The obstacle spread is great with 21 or more feet between obstacles and the opening is two jumps that they have to slice to a right turn into a 20′ tunnel. Tango didn’t like it at the show and doesn’t like it here. It turns back to the front of the ring. She likes non-technical openings, but also doesn’t seem to like the rapid turn back to the front of the ring. Possibly due to the extra noise at show, but there is no extra noise here really, so it could just be pre-programmed at this point as something she doesn’t like much.
The reason I bring that up, is that maybe I can use an FEO run to build value for an opening that turns back to the front of the ring and is more technical. With the reward station right outside the ring, we could do the normally demotivating thing and run for the exit and the cookies.
UKI around here is hard. There was one on artificial turf outside, which is always a crap shoot around here as to whether the surface is too hot or too slippery. Everything else so far has been in NM. There will be one in Flagstaff, but am not sure about that one.
The USDAA runs are $14, so very affordable and if I work the shows some I can also defray the cost with doggie dollars. Next weekends judge is Megan Shepter who no one seems to know much about. I will ask her if I can throw the toy to Tango on my way out of the ring. Tango will bring it back either way, so I am not worried about her running off with it.
As for reward games, spins don’t qualify in her book. Hitting my hand with her feet might. She was liking that this morning. I will see if I can watch to figure out what is motivating in happy kryptonite situations. Thanks a million and we will keep seeing what works.
Amy
Hi Tracy,
I haven’t fallen off the map. 😉
> Do you think she would be able to respond to a cue for a goofy tick in that moment? I have a new game coming tonight that might help too, the cookie-free pattern game. Let me know what you think after you see it!
I don’t think she could respond in the moment to a goofy game. It is really a moment when she can’t respond to much of anything but an ok, jump and that is slow.
So, in order to try out some of our training over the past week including the cookie free pattern game, last night I borrowed part of the field during one of Kodie’s higher energy classes. I set up x-pens as ring gates and a single jump. I got out the chair we take to trials, her Treat and train, and not her highest value treats, but treats ranging in value from kibble to a mid-high value treat that we use at shows. She started strong and I have been working on the trick reward as opposed to food reward. She is doing much better and making eye contact with me on the start-line and leash off. She was able to do right/left, and her jump up reward trick for the first couple of reps. As the class dogs ran the course, she was still able to connect, be happy, take the first jump, run for the leash and then the cookies. She really likes the T&T as reward. I also prime the cup holder of the chair with two to 3 different kinds of treats that she gets to gobble up. We did pattern games, foot target games and she was able to bark before “entering the ring” through all her reps. About half way through, one of the students, who Tango really likes, brought his puppy out and played tug and did some stanchion work on the jump. Tango and I then entered the ring as he moved away from the jump still tugging and playing with his puppy. That definitely upped the kryptonite for her, but while she wasn’t as ‘up’ as I would like her, she was still able to check in with me on entering the ring and when I took her leash off. She also was able to take the jump enthusiastically. I was pretty pleased overall.
So, here is my challenge and question: Tango’s ball is not enough of a reward for her in the ring or out of the ring to bring enough value to our FEO runs. I have entered her in two runs of a USDAA trial that I want to run FEO, but need some help brainstorming how to do this well for her. I have been really working hard on the pre-ring offered behaviors and the remote reinforcement as I think these will be key for success with her. I am trying to build massive value into the delayed reinforcement and get the optimal mental state from the pattern and instant focus things. Any other suggestions? I think that because she is aging that I need to be careful with how many times I use the jump up and touch my hand reward. Any thoughts on that? She does think it is a lot of fun, but I have noticed that she gets tired and I am wondering if it makes her back or joints uncomfortable when repeated too much. I haven’t yet found another natural/favorite behavior of hers.
As always, thanks for your help!
Amy
Hi Tracy,
I wanted to give you a brief update on our weekend of showing.
We crated out of the car this weekend as that is where it was best for staying cool and keeping Joy away from the front of the rings where she barks. 😉 It is a longer walk to the ring as you have to walk around the unused ring to the front of the active ring, but the walk to the rings didn’t bother Tango at all. He attitude outside the ring is still very happy, ready to play and bark, and always willing to go visit, beg, or talk to her village of people.
Tango is showing improvement on the start line too. She is able to look at me more often and while our first run is still often our best run, she is more relaxed at ringside with the offering of behaviors and is leaving the start line much better overall. Second run on Saturday, she entered the ring happy and we were standing waiting to go when something caught her attention behind her, she looked over her shoulder and her ears went down, head went down and she had a hard time starting. I didn’t get any video of this weekend, so don’t know what bothered her. She hates it when people yell, and it could have been the gate steward for that class who always sounds like she is yelling even if she doesn’t mean to. Sunday’s second run was a nice start. She didn’t leap off the start line, but left at a good run. 🙂
Anyway, over all she and I are doing better. She is asking lots of questions on course as there is LOTS to look at these days with the course designs. Just means my handling needs to get clearer and my connection more pronounced for her, I guess. That is for another class. I was just happy to see her happy walking in. No gates for the entries to the rings, just the exits. I know that also makes it easier for us. These gates are spring loaded too, so not closing them wasn’t an option.
I have now packed a smorgasbord of treats that we can rotate through depending on how stressful the environment is. She loves diving into the cupholder full of treats in the chair when we finish her run. I didn’t get to refreshing our treat and train delayed reinforcement before the trial, so I didn’t bring it this weekend. So many things to work on. 🙂 Gives me things to pull out of my hat for later trials.
Amy
Thanks, Tracy!
Actually, I don’t know if it was coincidence or part of the overall recipe, but she ran before Joy both Friday and Sunday. Saturday, she looked a little down each time I took Joy out to run first. I thought I was just projecting onto her that day, but it is something I will keep an eye on. She doesn’t run better using jealousy. I have tried that and it’s not a thing for her.
I did manage to watch the videos this afternoon. It wasn’t all terrible. I did see her watching the front of the ring worriedly on her worst runs. Don’t know what was happening, but she did.
Yes, our next trial is this weekend. We will be crating out of the car and running on artificial turf. Last time we were at this site, covid restrictions were in place, so we will see how busy it is in front of the rings this year. It is going to be HOT this weekend too. 😛
We will keep watching for things and training other things. I will focus on the shaped games. 🙂
Amy
you: Great news on the first run – what was your order of festivities before the run? This is part of data collecting.
Played with her ball, pattern games, some trick with remote reinforcement with middle value treats. (I forgot her foot target prop at home, so we didn’t get to play that game.) She was happy, able to bark on command outside the ring. I left the gate open as I entered. 😉
You: I am confused about the 2nd run – yay for the eye contact on the line, super YAY!!! But then you ran or didn’t run? I am confused LOL! Need.More.Coffee.
Second run was premier jumpers and we ran, but I think when I failed to mark the eye contact, she was confused. Didn’t really process what was going on until I had released her to run the course.
You regarding the last 2 Friday runs: Good to know. What were the order of festivities before the run on those: games? Food rewards? Where was she crated? More data collection. And this was Friday?
Yes, this was Friday. She was crated above ring level in the stands. There are ‘boxes’ in the stands where we all set up and crated our dogs. She gets to be in an x-pen, mostly by herself. The order of festivities is largely the same, but as she goes through the day, she won’t play ball with me. I generally up the value of the treats as we move through the day too. She was still able to engage and play outside the ring in the afternoon, bark and make eye contact.
You regarding Saturday: For data collection: what was the environment like? What was the order of festivities outside the ring, pre-run? Was she able to offer engagemen when the leash came off outside the ring? Inside the ring?
How many runs did she do on Saturday? She was 4 runs in on Friday.Saturday was only 3 runs. I actually don’t run 4 a day very often. The environment was busier as there were more entries and more visitors who just came to watch, many with puppies they were acclimating. Lots more noise. It also was hotter on Saturday and by the last run on Saturday, the dirt by the practice jump was hot, so she jumped into my arms and we left but it was too close to our run to go anywhere else to practice the leash off game any more before that run. Again, while we were both more tired, we played, and did tricks and remote reinforcement. She was engaged, but I was very aware that I was not getting the level of ‘heat’ that I really needed.
You: Fabulous! For the 2 hands game – was it more of a “hey, you get to choose your reinforcement from the charcuterie board” or was it more of a silly active game, almost like a pattern game… or both?
It was probably some of both because I use a closed hand to encourage her to really work for her treats, but the idea on Sunday was for her to choose which was the higher value treat for her between the two hands.
You: Could be that the environment suppresses her arousal enough that she struggles to get into the optimal state, even when you have the magic steak available. The environment (Pavlov) wins that battle over the steak (which leans more into the operant/Skinner zone). Pavlov always wins, that bastard.
Yes, but why? If I only knew the answer.
You: Data collection: what was it like on Friday for the early runs? And for the 2 later rnus which your described as less exciting?
What was the area in front of the rings like on Sunday? How was her first Sunday run compared to her last Sunday run?
Have you ever tried having someone else hold your spot in the queue outside the ring while she is in a relaxing spot elsewhere, then you make a grand entrance at the last minute so she is not in the more challenging environment for long, and when she is, she is jogging through it with you to the start line?So, on Friday, they started with the two premier classes which were small classes. Once all the people showed up for masters it got busier. On Sunday, the dogs are more tired overall and therefore there always seems to be less energy and barking from the dogs and people on Sunday. It was quieter overall and lots of cheering. 🙂 Love the NM folks. There is lots of comradery. I try to show up at the last minute when possible. Being in a place where people don’t know me, I tried to show up a little earlier, but be did some chill in her chair and played the games all three days. She sometimes does do better when we get to the ring at the last minute, but I have had it backfire too. I try to have only 1-3 dogs ahead of me.
The area in front of the rings on Sunday varied, but was definitely less crowded than Saturday. Her first run was still probably the best, and she did have a bit of a slow start on the last run, which was Mas JWW. We didn’t have our helper for that run, but still had the smorgasbord of treats and played remote reinforcement. I definitely had raw steak all three runs on Sunday as an option, but she was also very into some freeze dries salmon treats that my friend had brought and shared with us. She was really able to bark and play bowed and I knew I had a dog each run. I also discovered a square sand bag over by the standard ring that she foot targeted on Sunday. (Yea me) That made a difference for her too. 🙂 She really likes that kind of game and it does increase arousal.
As for what she does normally around the house, she doesn’t have natural arousal games other than bark at the delivery trucks, or chase birds and bunnies or stick her nose in gopher holes. She is a couch potato inside and when left to her own resources outdoors, she hunts.
I will keep watching and keep working on the pattern games. They do take a ton of pressure off me. 🙂 Hope all of that helps provide more info. I still need to download the videos and watch them. If I see something that I didn’t see while in the moment, I will let you know. 🙂
Amy
I will give the treat and train a try this weekend when we are local. 🙂 We will see if that works.
Also, an update on the weekend. She ran her first run of the weekend which was a premier standard course like she hardly had any ring stress. Rocked the course, her verbals, everything. Her second run, we ended up on the start line and she made eye contact and I TOTALLY missed the moment until we were leaving. WAAA!!! Giant tears of frustrations. I had to move her in the run order and didn’t double check that her scribe sheet got moved. Her next two runs as noise and activity picked up were less exciting. Saturday, I couldn’t get her to run at all and she literally stalled out on the last run of the day which she hasn’t done in a long, long time. I was pretty down by the end of that day.
Came Sunday with a plan to try to get her super excited and asked a friend who she loves to help me out with a smorgasbord of treats. Played some delayed reward games and get the cookies. My friend had treats in both hands so she got to choose which hand for a treat. It worked. She ran like a champ.
So, here’s my dilemma. Overall, she loves raw steak. However, I have had moments when even that didn’t get her up enough to overcome whatever trips her trigger. I have no idea if it is noise overload, which is possible since Saturday was by far the day with the most noise and energy. She also doesn’t love crowds (perhaps PTSD from showing indoors here) and it was pretty busy in front of the rings on Saturday. We were in a covered rodeo arena, so somewhat limited space between the rings and the stands. Anyway, how do I go about finding that one thing that sends her over the top? I never thought I would be asking a question like this, but that is what she needs to get beyond herself and run. When she runs she is AMAZING and I love running with my amazing dog.
All thoughts and suggestions are much appreciated and ‘I have no idea’ is a perfectly acceptable answer.
Amy
Thanks, Tracy! I appreciate your insight in building a game plan. She has been super responsive in training. I will take our training on the road while we still have nice weather in the mornings here. Looking forward to seeing how she responds in non-show distracting environments.
I have used a reward station off and on in trialing, so re-establishing it has been pretty easy. She is loving the remote reinforcement games so far, even without the treat and train. I am hoping that there is room for a chair ringside this weekend. 🙂 Never trialed here before. Thanks, again!
Amy
Hi Tracy,
I have a couple of questions for you. Our trial season is winding down here which is not to my benefit as training in the ring opportunities are challenging enough to find sometimes. I am working hard to be creative about how to transition the new behaviors to the trial situation with Tango. I am also trying to get through the last two weekends that we have entered that I cannot withdraw from. :-/ Not the best situation, but for as long as this has been going on, I am not going to rebuild Rome in a week or a month and I know that. So, do you think it is ok to play some of these games outside the ring, just like I would with my puppy to begin building value for them in the show environment? Tango is willing to do lots of things outside the ring that I can’t get inside the ring and I don’t think it will change her attitude about the new games being fun. However, I wanted to know your opinion so I don’t break down the process that we are trying to build on.
The next question is about class and training. Tango will run a whole run with the ball in my pocket, so should I trade off between that and building on the remote reinforcement? I am thinking for the transition to trials, I am going to have to really build a massive value for the remote reinforcement since tugging is not a big value for her and there are limited opportunities for throwing her ball. Fortunately, we took your got remote class and she has a massive value for that relative to the treat and train, so I am just trying to really help her generalize that to any kind of remote reinforcement. With the ‘leash off’ game in class/training, how do decide when to move from treats in the pocket to asking for an obstacle and then treating and subsequently moving to remote re-inforcement? Tango is smart and knows way too much in her old age so, I am having to really try to figure out how to make sure she really has value for or has changed her attitude about something completely enough to move on. Any insight you might have is greatly appreciated.
Untraining and retraining is always more challenging that working with a young dog, at least for me. Thanks for your unending patience.
Amy
