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>>I am seeing a pattern: if you decel AND put your arm up, she pulls off. So it can be one or the other, but not both
That’s interesting! I will have to try to pay attention to that.
>>then you were the whippet and just took off running
I just need to channel my inner whippet! Maybe I can get a friend to throw a bunny on the field for me to chase any time Nox messes up. 🤣
Hi! No worries on the delay! I saw your post on Facebook about traveling, so I assumed it was related to that. 🙂 It sounds like it was a nice trip!!
Thanks for all of the ideas about how to stay in motion! It’s so very hard for me to keep going because I want to fix it (old habits die hard!). I am at least more aware of it and realize that I should have kept going (a moment too late, lol) and have some more strategies on how to handle it. I was always taught to stop and fix issues, and competing in NADAC for so long has encouraged it, too. There aren’t any refusals in NADAC, so as long as you don’t go off course, you can get as many sheltie spins and barks as time allows and still qualify. I exclusively ran NADAC since probably 2006 up until I got Nox. I also have recently had 2 sheltie people (very good handlers) tell me that I need to stop her and hit the reset button when she starts herding me because she just gets stuck. All that being said, that strategy has not reduced her frustration (or mine), so it clearly isn’t working, haha!
As I mentioned before, we ran this standard course before getting all of the strategies for moving on, so you’ll see a bit of that. I did make an attempt to keep going in spots since you had mentioned it after the first videos I submitted, but we hadn’t discussed specifics at that point.
*I unfortunately had to mow my grass, so I don’t have this course set up anymore, so I will not be submitting a round 2, but I think this is a course I may come back to at a later point. There are 2 spots in particular that I struggled with. I have given more info below about the 2 problems. 🙂
This was an EXTRMELY challenging course for us. I only ran it all the way through once, which was our first attempt. The opening was easy for us; I think you’ll only see it once in the video because I didn’t think we needed to keep practicing it. After the weaves is where it starts to fall apart (around 1:25, denoted by *** in the video). I could not figure out how to consistently send her out to the jump after the weaves and then show her the line to the tunnel. I felt like the issue was that she was jumping to her right, and in order to get the next jump, she had to change leads, but then I couldn’t get her to change her lead back to get the tunnel. I didn’t put it in the video, but we did that line probably a dozen times with most of them resulting in spinning and barking at the tunnel. I could not get down the line faster because if I left too early, she skipped the jump. I tried back chaining and rewarding the tunnel, but as soon as I added the turn back in after the weaves, the problem came back. I tried a blind cross; one time it worked, but the other times (and there were several not in the video), it put me behind for the next line (1:50).
The other issue we kept having was after that same tunnel (once she got in it, lol). I tried to layer the jump, but she kept reading it as a serpentine line and took the wrong jump. I tried that quite a few times, and I even threw a reward on her line to keep her out there but to no avail. It was very inconsistent.
I hope those questions make sense!
Hi!
I wish I could attend the Zoom sessions live, but it’s at the same time as a scent work class Nox and I are taking. I should be able to make the last couple, though!I did the self-talk activity. I found that the negative talk column was easier to come up with the other ones, not surprisingly! I always try to be careful about balancing positive and negative when talking about things that went wrong in my students’ runs. Even when everything went wrong, I try to find something to compliment, even if it’s just that their dog didn’t go off and sniff something or they made a good decision to reward the dog for their own mistake instead of getting frustrated. I don’t do this nearly so instinctually with myself, though! I am very fortunate to train with a wonderful group of people who will point out the positives even when everything else was a mess. Now I just need to internalize this so it’s more natural than the negative talk!
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ts5Hz2er-I9Yycxfwcne4TiS_ZBo25tB80E7RhtbeKM/edit?usp=sharing
I think the theme of camp for us this year is not course trends but rather, “Stop the barking,” lol. Besides the fact that it puts her in a more aroused state (definitely on the wrong side of that bell curve!), it drives me a bit crazy, so even if that’s what we focus on this summer, it would be well worth it if we can take that out of our training!!
>> As strange as it sounds.. just keep going. Note what happened but starting over from the weaves just gets the rehearsal of barking and jumping around in front of you, which is the behavior we don’t want on the agility course. It is a similar behavior to the ones you get in front of a jump or tunnel.
So here’s my biggest problem (besides breaking the habit of stopping), and I don’t know how to get around it. When something goes wrong, she very quickly starts barking, spinning, and jumping around in my path. In the example of the weaves, I would not have physically been able to run towards the next jump without tripping on her. On the times that I am able to not trip on her, she seems stuck in a loop of yelling at me and getting sort of herdy until I make her pause and line up next to me again. This is mostly when we have long lines of nothing (like from the middle of the weaves to the next thing) or when I have decelerated/stopped or left too early. Yes, these are often my fault, but she has already started barking and spinning by the time my brain has processed what happened, and you said I shouldn’t reward when she’s barking at me. So I feel a bit stuck and unsure of what to do. We have been playing the 1-2-3 pattern game a lot, and it helps when walking to the startline and in a situations having nothing to do with agility. I can play that with her, but it’s obviously not ring sustainable since I can’t feed her in a trial. Also, there’s a good chance she will already have been barking and spinning by the time I can start counting, so I didn’t know if that would still reward the behavior I’m trying to stop since I believe the reinforcement is tied into the counting, not just the cookies at this point. Is that something I should try to use perhaps?
As I mentioned before, I did already run this standard course I’m posting, but I tried to stop stopping. We got stuck at the jump before the teeter a couple of times (:30 is the first time). This is an example of where I couldn’t keep going (teeter entry would have been a problem), but I didn’t know what to do. By the time my handling mistake was made, she was already barking, so if I threw a reward, I felt like that’s what you told me not to do previously. But if I did nothing, we rehearsed the barking. And I couldn’t just go to the teeter because of the unsafe entry, but it is similar to when she would trip me or just run while barking at me and not do the next thing either because she’s so handler focused at that point. What is the best thing to do in these places?
My major win for these reps: I didn’t stop when she hit the front side of a jump (3 times, lol, oops…) and missed the tunnel after the teeter thanks to my forward drive!!
Hi!
I have run each of the jumpers and standard courses but haven’t had a chance to edit and post the videos yet. Yesterday was the last day of work for me until the end of August, so now I can catch up! The end of the school year kicked my butt this time around, lol. I will wait for feedback before posting another video, and I don’t expect you to view them back-to-back. 🙂 I just didn’t want you to think I was running everything all in one day, lol.
I am trying to watch her head more for commitment, but it’s hard when she’s so fast and we’re both running! I’m still leaving just a bit too early in places; I’m sure that will be the case for a while until I am able to read her cues for me to leave better.
Here is Round 2 of Jumpers 1. I think I did a better job of connecting after the blind on 3-4 (or she memorized the course, lol). Committing to the weaves was also better since I didn’t pull off early. She did drop out of the weaves the first run, but I think she was distracted by my friend who was taking pictures from the end of the weaves. I don’t know if it was the sound of the shutter (she’s not sound sensitive but does hear everything just like she sees everything, haha) or if it might have been the pressure of a person being there. Either way, good training I suppose! Plus she got a really cool picture of her, lol. I held my position longer for 10, but I felt like it was late since she was heading to the other jump and had to turn hard to avoid it on the way to 11. We very much need to work on blind tunnel entries because that was still very hard for her. I liked the s-turn for the ending better than the wrap, but it was really wide on the last run still. It was nice when I just did 14 to the end, though.
>>Also in the category of “Nox Sees Everything”
Yes!! She totally does see everything! It will probably be super helpful at some point, but for now, it would be great if she could not see my mistakes, lol.
Lots of good things to think about from those sequences! I’m starting to get the idea that Nox might be a lot better at agility than I am, haha. It’s so interesting to me that she understands communication between us that I don’t even notice.
We tried out the first 3 sequences again taking your suggestions into account, specifically keeping better connection and moving forward while showing the next line. I’ve already taken this sequence down, so I’m not looking for detailed feedback. The only thing I was really wondering about is your opinion of my choice to try a blind after 4 in sequence 1. I felt like it allowed me to cue and support jump 4 while staying in motion and getting to the next line. I was hoping it would avoid an abrupt stop from me that would cause questions on her part as well as tighten up the turn to 5 since I could leave earlier (not sure if it the latter really happened).
We did Jumping 1 and had some good moments, but it was quite challenging!!
The tunnel entry at 4 and 15 were probably the hardest for us. There were a few attempts on the opening that I didn’t include because they were similar to the first run. She would either miss jump 3 or take the jump next to the tunnel. I tried doing the blind earlier, but she was likely to miss 3 or knock the bar. I also tried a front cross. I ran into the tunnel and completely got in her way, but she somehow still did the tunnel, lol.
For 15, I was able to get her into the tunnel by giving a “here” cue. I’m not entirely sure what “here” means, though, lol. It’s something I’ve used forever with other dogs instead of specific directionals, and it just slips out sometimes. I’m guessing it’s just a bit of a head check for Nox.
I had a lot of issues with not taking that extra step and got some yelling from her. My brain knows the problem, but I can’t get my feet to do it correctly!
I’m going to try really hard to stop stopping! I’ve been doing it for a VERY long time, so I know I will make mistakes with that. You will see that in the video added below. The first couple of reps were run before getting your feedback; I only had time to edit the first sequence initially, but we had already made an attempt at the 2nd sequence.
When we had time to try it again, I did make an attempt to keep going when I messed up and she didn’t take a jump. I had varying success, lol. There is one spot where you can see me taking way too long to process (1:57). I was thinking, “Ok, she missed the jump, I’m not supposed to stop, but that’s what I’m standing here doing. What does, ‘Don’t stop look like?’ Oh yeah, move your feet!”
I do have a question about your comment from last time before getting to sequence 2 and 3.
>>One thing I see that she needs on course is for you to keep moving towards the next line, feet always facing the next line. Any time you pull away from the line or don’t turn your feet to it, she has big questions (and good questions!) So connection is important but always moving forwards towards the next line is super helpful.
You said to keep moving my feet to the next line, but as you have seen, we have a lot of issues when I start moving to the next line before she’s completed everything on the current one. I’m not sure how to keep my feet pointing at the next line while still giving her the support she needs to prevent those arguments we sometimes have.
Sequence 2 & 3
I responded to you from a post on March 3 above. 🙂 I’m not sure if you get a notification about responses to older posts or just that we posted in general, so I didn’t know if you’d see it.
Per your suggestion, I did a warm-up with the switch aways. I tried showing her the opposite arm a little earlier after the tunnel. I also made sure to do both sides. After that, we jumped into Handling Challenges 5. I was very happy with how it went! If I’m remembering correctly, we didn’t have any instances of choosing the wrong obstacle, and I’m really not doing a lot in terms of handling.
Thank you so much for that explanation about my “Pez” procedures. I think it’s actually reducing her barking and angst in between reps (does that mean there is operant conditioning at play?), but it’s hard to explain the purpose and how it’s helping to others. You have given me some language to use to help with that.
<<So keep on Pezzing it up! And now I want some Pez. And my next puppy might be named Pez LOL!
I will keep on “Pezzing it up”! (That’s totally a new verb in my vocabulary now, lol). And that’s a great name for a puppy!! Congrats on the new baby, by the way!
<<What is happening when you dispense the Pez is neurobiological (internal state conditioning, resilience conditioning) and not operant…
I just spent way too long reading about studies in mice and internal state conditioning and operant vs classical learning, lol.
<<Onwards to the video – she has made BIG STRIDES with finding the tunnel while you layered and run away!!! Yay! There is some real tunnel love building, and tunnel rage is reducing.
Yes!! I love seeing her driving to the tunnel! It’s been such an issue for us in the past.
Ugh! I don’t know why YouTube is being difficult for this class. Here is the updated link.
I vote for Wednesday or Thursday for the live chat, lol. I am starting a nosework class on Monday with Nox! Bobbie talked about the benefits of it for dogs with behavior issues, so we’re trying it out. Tuesday I teach agility class. But if I miss it, I will watch the recording!!
Hi!
I know I just posted the other video a little while ago, but I wanted to post my Switch Aways video while I had a chance.
Nox has heard the word “switch” before, but I have not done much work with it. She did pretty well overall, especially when I was clear with my cues. I think she was mostly relying on body cues at this point. Towards the end of the video, I moved the jump and did a couple of reps in the other direction just to see if it was a pattern or if she was understanding the word. I need to work on turning to the right as well still.
https://youtu.be/SNtiP-gtAKsWe’ll be working on the last 3 sequences over the next week. I’m glad we have a catch up week!!
Finally, in your last email you told us to let you know if we wanted to do another live chat. I am always game for that, lol!
Hi Tracy!
Thanks for all that info on non-reward markers!! Super helpful.
I am seeing quite a bit of progress driving to the tunnel, even with layering. I have not had a chance to go back to the first game with no movement from me, but when I’m allowed to move, it is going pretty well.
In this video, my verbals were a little messy in the first few reps. I had no idea what I was saying, lol. She did well in spite of that, haha.
Dog training question while you’re watching! At around the 30 second mark, Nox dropped a bar. I threw the clam food toy for the rep and went to put the bar back up. Since she has a tendency to leave me, especially when I disengage at all, I will often throw cookies for her and give her “search” cue, which means find food on the ground. I’ve been told by other trainers not to be a “Pez dispenser” and just give out cookies for nothing (although that was more for when she’s just standing next to me and I’m talking to the instructor, but it serves the same purpose). Do you think there’s an issue with my process or is it ok to use the cookies to keep her from leaving or getting super barky and angry? (Apparently “barky” is not a word. How is that possible, lol?)
Handling Challenges 4
Hi!
<<I think that a key would be to use an immediate reset marker where she comes back to get a cookie to try again – that can really help reduce frustration while building up a calmer response when things are not perfect.
I previously used a no reward marker, but no matter how casual or upbeat it was, it would cause her to immediately run off and chase things (real or imagined). I have not tried a specific word to mean “come here and get a cookie so we can try again.” I will see if that cleans up our training a bit.
<<If getting the food out of the lotus ball is not a good feeling for her, then definitely take it out – she ran off after a lotus ball reward early in the video here.
I think she likes the Clam toy I’m using more than she liked the Lotus Ball, but I think she prefers the Manners Minder over both. My guess is that it has to do with her impatience, lol. In the video, I was using a new treat, and I don’t think she was super excited about it (although she still scarfed it down, lol). That may have contributed to her lower frustration tolerance as well. I’m going to pay more attention to the difference based on my different rewards (MM vs thrown food vs food toy).
I tried the sequence again with her on my right and sending to the jump past the tunnel. I didn’t video it, but it went much better. Perhaps it was a fresh brain, latent learning, or cleaner mechanics on my part (or all 3!). I will revisit this skill in the future.
New Stuff: We have been working on our threadle slices and wraps recently, and they are still a work in progress, so I wasn’t sure how some of the sequences were going to go. I was very pleased with the results! I had a couple of spots where I know I didn’t support her line correctly and she missed the correct side of the jump, but she was able to get it as soon as I fixed my handling. Would you do these same sequences at some point with very little connection and handling, or does that just apply to the earlier game we played? The tunnel while layering the jump was a little challenging at first (not surprisingly), but once I gave a slight arm cue, she was able to figure it out.
Yes, very low frustration tolerance!! I’m not sure if there are games to play outside of agility that might help that or if that’s just her personality. I will try adding the arm in to help her build confidence with this game, though!
I’ll have to break out some really yummy treats for the lazy tunnel game… Would I play that game separately from the discrimination game so the tunnel is just by itself? If so, I might add the Manners Minder back in so she doesn’t have to work for the cookie by getting it out of the toy. I think she prefers that.
The last video did have an issue with the upload. I uploaded it again. Sorry about that!
