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Hi!
>>>>She is a 16 inch jumper, but I trial and usually train at 12 because she has always had such difficulty with jumping cleanly. >>
This is SUPER smart and I wish more people would follow your lead on this.>>
The decision was based on advice you gave me last summer. I do not regret the decision at all! 🙂
In regards to the jumping issues, I did have her hips x-rayed when she was about a year old, but I have to admit she hasn’t had any of the other tests you mentioned. I will consider bringing this up with our vet.
>>So she needs a power-steering style of handling – smooth, calm, within the bubble for jumping (maybe 10 feet or less), with subtle transitions – but no slamming on the brakes or hitting the accelerator hard LOL!!
So basically, I have to be perfect in my handling. No problem, LOL!!
>>Plus, there is a boatload of conditioning and skill work we all need to do (but most of us don’t do enough, myself included) So she might need jump grids once a week, just to work the balance and hind end, maybe cavaletti work, etc.
I know VERY little about jump grids and am just learning about conditioning work. I have the Susan Salo book. Should I just go through and pick random ones to set up each week? I have looked for online jump classes, but I haven’t found much. As you said, it’s a complex skill, and it seems that not many people have the knowledge to troubleshoot when the dog isn’t a natural jumper. It’s been a frustrating couple of years looking for answers!
Moving on to the next thing- we had the opportunity to rent some indoor AIR CONDITIONED space a couple days ago. We worked on RYG sequences from package 4. I was very happy with the first and second sequences. After the 2nd attempt of sequence 2, I did the opening with 3 different handling moves. I’m not sure which one I liked better, but they were all fun to try! For the 3rd sequence, we (Nicole Davilli and another friend) could not figure out how to get the backside of 6. I have been tasked with finding out what the answer is, lol. After we all ran it and tried breaking it down using a threadle wrap, we considered maybe a backside push would work better (with training the skill of course). Ignore the ending where I made up my own numbers, haha. And please excuse the MAS in the background yelling about how it should be her turn instead of Nox’s.
Hi!!
>>If you see something that is definitely a new skill or hasn’t been done in flow or on course yet – break those out. You can train those separately, and tweak the course to simplify the lines to be able to run the bigger pieces in flow without asking for the harder challenges.
Makes perfect sense!!
>>Based on her questions here, this is a skill to isolate: getting commitment on a GO TUNNEL cue while you peel away, so the verbal overrides your motion
This is so hard for her without her getting BIG MAD!! I am going to have to start very small with this probably. I’m thinking drive to the tunnel with me running parallel and having a really yummy cookie at the end in her Lotus Ball (or placed). Then gradually run on a less parallel line to her. I need to work on the countermotion foundation games more as well! (reminder to self: send to MM while I leave; send to prop while I leave)
>>To not have to pull with motion as much, you can turn away a little but make a big connection and have your tandem turn hands pointed back to her – be watching her the entire time as you move her through it, to support the line.
What exactly are “tandem turn hands” supposed to look like? It feels very similar to a threadle wrap cue when I do it, but I’m not sure if that’s what I want. I struggle hard with rear crosses and tandem turns with Nox, which is funny because I was more likely to do that with my previous dogs than with her, and she’s way faster than my previous agility partners.
We did the Package 3 RYG sequences. We spent the most time on the first one. The first section was from earlier in the day, and then I went and ran errands, and we went back out once it had cooled off a bit. In total, we spent less than 15 minutes training, and that was split over 2 sessions hours apart. I am going to try very hard to be aware of how long each session is. She did great on the 2nd sequence!! The 3rd one was pretty good but had a couple of challenging spots, mostly for me, lol.
At the end of the video, there is about a minute of some slow mo clips of her jumping. I was trying to figure out if there is anything about my handling that is different when she jumps way too early vs much closer to the jump. She is a 16 inch jumper, but I trial and usually train at 12 because she has always had such difficulty with jumping cleanly. She never has issues with depth perception in the house (i.e. jumping on the couch or bed even when she is running, catching treats in mid-air), and she doesn’t always jump so early in agility. That leads to me believe it’s likely not a vision issue (although I’m certainly not a vet nor a jumping expert). I was not able to discern anything about me that is influencing her jumping. I was wondering if there was anything I’m doing that you can see that I might be missing.
Hi!!
So much good info from your last post! I will work on backside tunnel entries since they are clearly a skill we don’t have. I noticed she barked every time she approached that entry, even before there was a “refusal,” so that tells me she has big questions, and I don’t think she likes having questions, lol. As a matter of fact, I used to think that she was a dog who barked while she ran the whole course. I am now seeing that she actually is relatively quiet other than when she has questions. Quiet while running that is, not necessarily in the rest of her life. 🤣
>>Try to not circle around and send to the same jump again, because even though that sometimes works, she is getting savvy to it being basically the same thing as a stop plus it doesn’t give you time to adjust the handling.
I got a little stuck on this a few times as you’ll see in this new video. I tried not to stop, but my default to that appears to be circling back. I tried to keep in mind that it’s not a great strategy, but my feet were a little faster than my brain, so I ended up stopping mid-circle. So basically, I’m doing both things that you told me not to do at the same time! 😂😂 I’m working on it, lol.
>>Remember to not point forward of her to a jump – at 1:33, she was behind you and you pointed forward which turns the physical cues away from the jump so she got a little confused.
UGH! I’ve been trying to break this habit for a loooonnnggg time. It never works, so you’d think I’d stop, haha. Thank you for the reminder!
>>Bring a total of 5 treats with you, that is all 🙂 The rest are in the house. When the 5 treats are done? Session over!
I like the concept of this idea, but it would be challenging for me because I also have to play a lot of pattern games with her, which require random amounts of cookies. If I have pockets, I can put “agility cookies” in one pocket and “pattern games cookies” in the other. But… I don’t always have pockets. I did not take the whole bag of treats outside with me in this session, but I didn’t think of the different pockets thing after I ran. I like the timer idea, too. My watch was very much dead, so I did not try that in this session, but typically I have it when training, so I will add this idea in to our next session.
>>My new mission in life is to get people to watch their videos between each rep, ideally, and definitely between each session. The trend in agility is to work the pants off the dog then look at the video later that day or the next day.
I currently use a GoPro to video everything so all the files are in one place and not mixed in with a million pictures of my cats and Nox’s adorable fuzzy face. It’s nice for organization. It also has a wider lens and takes good videos. However, the screen is too small to see any detail, so I may have to switch to my phone for videos if I watch it after each rep.
>>And if you pull her off a line? Keep going rather than drop the reward and stop.
This is more important than breaking it down to teach her the elements, because once she has learned the course she is no longer giving feedback on the handling information.>>And on these big huge lines, placed rewards on all of these will help. You can place the rewards on the very first session rather than waiting to see where the trouble spots are, so she gets a lot of reinforcement for looking at the lines. (This was from the previous post you made)
Can you help me understand when I should break something down versus just running it all the way through so that she doesn’t memorize it? I guess the obvious answer is the teach the elements away from a sequence, such as with the threadle wrap that we struggled with the other day, but there are times when she seems fluent in a skill but on a particular sequence it’s difficult. Or it’s good in isolation but not in a sequence.
>>Running through the weaves is fine for now as you build up the layering – just remember you can’t do it int a trial LOL!
Haha, it isn’t something I’ve ever done before! I knew I was not going to get out of there in time to show her the line (and she was going to yell at me), so I just snuck right through there, lol.
On to the new video…
>>Before running it again, skip ahead to the walk through stuff in the most recent live class and in package 4 – and walk this course, with that in mind.I walked it (and videoed it) before I ran it again with the dog and tried to visualize where she would be. The first part of the video is my first attempt (after walking) and a little bit work on the tandem turn at 7. Then I added both the walk through video and the actual run (second attempt) on the same screen for comparison. I felt like I held the tandem turn at 7 for about the same amount of time (maybe it was slightly different?), but I was not in the same place. I had to support her more going into the tunnel, so I didn’t get to layer the weaves, but at least I didn’t run through them this time, lol. I did not give her clear enough signals on the actual run to get the backsides on that last big line, but I just went with the front sides and kept going.
Package 2- Jumpers 2, Round 2
Hi!
>>There are elements of it in all of the above 🙂 They are marked as ‘turn aways’ and backwards sends in the MaxPup classes.
Thanks for those key words! I would have spent a while looking for “threadle wraps” lol!
I tried the Jumpers Course 1 from Package 2 again. I think it went really well! I’m so proud of the distance she’s giving me and the HUGE lines she’s driving on (even if it’s not always consistent).
I tried to make all of the changes you mentioned: stayed with her to end of the weaves; gave turn verbal at the tunnel at 9 (more below…) using “out” at 11-12 instead of “go”; showing acceleration and closed shoulders at 11-13. I was super happy with it overall!! (<<You don’t need to run it clean>> <<Practice Makes Plasticity (Not Perfect)>> Trying to remember these words of wisdom!!). I very much made up my own course at the end, partly because I messed up my handling at a wrap and partly because I got it confused with the other course’s ending.
>>But if you are saying go and accelerating, and she misses it and curls off the line towards you – then you toss the reward back towards you – it can be confusing to her about what the behavior actually is. So keep accelerating forward and always throw the reward ahead of you.
I did NOT do this correctly a couple of times, but I realized it, so hopefully I will start to catch myself BEFORE I do it wrong. 🙂
It went great up until the tunnel entry at 10. I did get a really nice rep of this at the end of the video, though! In watching the 3 attempts in this video back-to-back, I can clearly see that she cannot see me giving her any kind of direction into the tunnel until she is past the entry. When I stayed at the entry and showed it to her, she got it no problem. Is that how I should handle it, or is there still a gap in our skills that I need to work on? It did put me a bit behind to show the next line, but I think think that if I had kept driving forward, she would have gotten the rest of it.
That’s really my only question about this video (I think most of our issues were connection problems, anyway, lol), so I hope it’s ok that I’m posting Jumpers 2, Round 1 as well. I do not plan to run the first course again, so I’d prefer feedback on the other course to try one more time tomorrow before I have to move it all to mow the grass. 🙂
This is jumpers 2. I am not proud of the first couple of minutes, haha. Those were not my best dog training moments. I don’t know why I continued the session as long as I did. We did go in the house and take a long break in the AC in the middle of it, so it was broken up a bit. Still, I was not breaking down the hard parts and rewarding strategically with placed rewards. I’m not sure how much actual learning took place here. As the intro states in the video, I have regrets, lol. At about 2:53 is the start of the next day’s session, and I think I did a much better job at attempting to break it down and reward better. It wasn’t perfect by any means, so I’d love some ideas on how to improve it before a final session on it tomorrow. The agility stuff stops at 4:43. The ending is just is us playing 1-2-3 (hard to hear my counting). I played it throughout this whole session (on day 2), and there was SOOO much less barking overall. I was looking back at my notes from previous posts, and I came across the one where you told me not to let her rehearse the barking in front of me in the in-between moments (so much to remember 🤪). Feel free to skip that part. 🙂
There are some great suggestions in this list! I would add “Firework” by Katy Perry. It gets stuck in my head every time I hear it, lol.
Also, I have to say that is a hilarious typo in the title for this thread! 🤣🤣
Hi!
>>The Threadle wrap is all about that shoulder turn away, then hands turn on the flat, then hands send back to the jump (but you don’t need to turn and face the jump there).
So for the wraps, I should not be turning with her toward the wing with my feet after she’s turned towards the jump? I am sure there is a video somewhere of you teaching wraps. I just need to find it and go back to the foundation on this one! I can’t remember if it was in a webinar on verbals or perhaps in the Max Pup self-study class that I never finished. 😝
We did the first jumpers course from Package 2. I broke it down and started with the two lines I thought might be difficult. She rocked the first one, no problem! The second spot was harder, but I think I was trying to leave too early. We got it in isolation but then it was an issue when I put it all together. After the failed attempt in the big sequence, we took a break and came back to it the next day. We did finally get it!
The other spot that was difficult was getting 9-10. She took the off-course jump a couple of times (but I kept going, lol!), and it was hard for her to get the tunnel entry when she did not take that jump. I did a quick rep of it at the end of our session, and she got it nicely. I was past the tunnel entry that time. I’m not sure if my position is what got her through that correctly or if it was something I was cueing differently. Maybe I was blocking her view of the tunnel entry? I think that would have gotten me down the line faster to get #12 better had we kept going, too.
Overall, I was very happy with how much distance she gave me!!
Hi!
This second round for the Live class (from Package 2) was more of a training session for threadle wraps than focus on sequencing. I did not run each sequence 4 times, so my video is in a bit different format. After a brief warm-up on the slice and the wrap, we were able to do the first sequence the first time very nicely! I took some time to train the opening of sequence 2 (see below for questions!) before we ran the whole thing once. Finally, we did 2 tries on the 3rd sequence. I hope that’s ok!
I would love feedback on the wrap training specifically. After a couple of tries where she got the wrap but it wasn’t really fluent, I reviewed your feedback from the first round again and tried to really focus on turning my shoulders away from the jump while letting her see some decel. It was so counterintuitive for me to turn away from the wrap, but it definitely helped! However, we then got some big loopy turns. I made a note in the video about that, but I wanted to elaborate on my question here. It’s getting the job done, but if I keep practicing it like that, am I going to be able to exaggerate less as she gets more understanding of the body and verbal cues, or am I going to be stuck overhandling threadle wraps with the loopy turn?
Hi!!
>>One thing to remember is to always be connected and watching her
So it turns out the secret to agility is… CONNECTION! 😂😂😂 The word “connect” or “connection” has been used 55 times on this thread so far (no, I didn’t count them manually, haha). It’s such a simple concept, yet it’s sooo hard to do, lol. I tried really hard to watch her fuzzy little face in the sequences from the Week 2 Live class! There were a few places where I was not successful, but I at least felt like I was making a more conscious effort and really thinking about it.
Our biggest struggle was with the threadle wraps. We haven’t had threadle slices in our toolbox for all that long (the last few months really), and the wrap is even more new for us, so I’m not surprised that it was difficult. I did think she knew threadles a bit better than what she was showing me, though. I did the warm-ups and that seemed to go pretty well, but once I added more motion and speed, it was a lot harder for her. I know some of it was handler error, but my goal is not have to do much “handling” for the final behavior. After this session, I thought about it and realized that although we worked a lot on the threadle cues (both the slice and wrap), they were not done with a lot of speed or motion from me, so I skipped some steps before trying to add them in to sequences. This was super helpful information!!
I’m starting to be a little more fluent with not stopping every time something goes wrong. Again, not perfect, but improving! 🙂
Live Week 2- Warm-Up and all 3 Sequences
Hi!
>>I have a set of MAD channels, they are really nice!
Good to know! I would definitely prefer to get channels rather than try to use straight poles to minimize the impact on her body. I will probably do some work on this skill in the meantime, but I may have to wait to do much until I get some channels.
>>Separately, on a course with the DW there – replace the weaves with a straight tunnel, to teach her the concept of “go allllll the way out there and do a thing”.
I actually thought about that as option! But I still needed to run the other course, and it was too hot to move a tunnel across the yard, lol. I will use this set up at some point to work on teaching distance. I also like the suggestion of using the same set up as the RYG challenge with the barrier.
>>On the full run – Nice opening! That looked smooth and fast!
Thank you!! I was super happy with that section.
We did the 2nd course today. The first section is us practicing the Find Your Face game. I had done some work with it in the Got F.A.C.E class I did with Bobbie, but I completely forgot about it until the webinar yesterday. I wanted to see where we were with the game since it’s been a while. She did great when I was just slowly moving, but when I added a jump, she got a bit frustrated, so I know we need to work that skill away from excitement and movement for the time being. You can skip to 1:14 if you want to jump to the actual coursework. 🙂
Technically the “first” attempt is our second. The first one was just a video of the sky and my face when I was messing with my tripod, lol. Apparently I turned the camera on by accident and when I thought I was videoing the run, I actually turned it off. Anyways, you’ll see the “first” run followed by a breakdown of the hard part (tunnel under the dog walk and getting out to the weaves). From this, I learned that I need to work on simply sending to a reward. I have not yet worked on countermotion using a Manners Minder, but I think that will be hard if she won’t drive to a Lotus Ball on the ground ahead of me when I’m going in the same direction. We did one final run at the end. I don’t anticipate doing a 2nd round of this course since we have lost so much time due to bad weather and Nox being sick. (Trying to decide what to move on to next and what to cut!)
Hi again!
Thankfully Nox got over her kennel cough pretty quickly, so we are back it! We were thwarted by storms yesterday when it finally got cool enough to train, but we finally got some practice in today.
As you saw from my post on Facebook, I am looking into options for channel weaves. I have also reached out to find out about some prices from MAD Agility since I’ve heard they make a pretty good set. I would love to see the steps you mentioned on how to start that training with Nox.
In the meantime, I tried adding gates onto my weaves to see if that made it any easier for Nox to stay in while I left to get to the other side of the dog walk. I had varying degrees of success. I think I need to practice this without the dog walk in the picture so I have more options for gradually making it harder with increased distance both laterally and being behind her. I can often get a nice lateral fade, but turning in the other direction and being that far away was really hard!
Week 2- Standard Course 1, Round 2
That all makes perfect sense about the weaves. Unfortunately, Nox was trained on straight weaves using gates (small garden gates set perpendicular by each pole on alternating sides). I know this is a bit “old school” and it’s not how I will train my next dog, but it’s what what was recommended to be by a respected local trainer. It did work pretty well. Nox learned to weave in a relatively short time with reasonable independence. However, it certainly had its drawbacks, and I have just found another one, lol.
I do not have currently have access to 2x2s or channels. It is something I would like to invest in for my next dog, though. Would it make sense to look into buying them now and training Nox how to do them on “easy mode” so I can use them as you suggested, or would that likely be really confusing to her at this point? Regardless of the answer to that question, which method is your preference to start a dog on?
Hi!
Yes, kennel cough does suck!! Thankfully, she’s mostly better. She doesn’t cough unless she starts running around and barking a lot, which as you know, is kind of her thing, lol, but even then it’s minimal.
I started working on layering parts of the standard course 1 from week 2 before she got sick. We did 1-4 several times and then did 1-6 all together. I think that part went well overall.
We had started working on the weave section, and I thought I had lost all of the video I took except for one short session, but it turns out I actually had all of it! The part I’d like the most help with in this video is how to progress with the weaves. Since I couldn’t run the whole course to submit, I included most of what we did with the weaves. I believe this was from 3 separate sessions, all relatively short. I think that if I keep running parallel to her while in the weaves, she would have a much easier time staying in them. She can also sometimes do them while I am standing still behind her, but I cannot always get her to commit to them when I’m behind her. I don’t think she’s going to be ready for me to layer the dog walk and get the weaves in the next week or so, and I’d like to move on to something else once she’s able to run. With that in mind, I would like to improve this skill, so any ideas would be most welcome! I will probably attempt course 2 before I reset to something else, but if we have the same issue, I won’t spend a lot of time on it right now unless other things from camp build on it.
Hi!
I had started working on the standard course by breaking down the layering elements into pieces. We got through the first section pretty well and I was going to tackle the send to the weaves next. Unfortunately, Nox came down with kennel cough a few days ago, so we can’t do any more work until she’s better. It seems to be a mild case so I’m hopeful she will bounce back quickly. She wants to run and play, but she starts coughing, so I really need her to get better fast, lol.
>>It is 1000% fine to get it on the first try, give yourself a high five, and NOT repeat it.
Does this idea apply to just longer sequences or also to skills (e.g. training a wrap or a backside)?
Thanks for clearing that up about how/where to put the Lotus Ball and how to fade it. Super helpful info!
I tried to use more motion in the subsequent reps (once I remembered after the first couple, lol). It definitely seemed to help.
Here is our video!
I know these sequences are for building the skill of layering, and I wouldn’t exactly call Nox proficient with that yet. Do you think I can go ahead and start working on the big courses? (I had already set it last week when I set the RYG sequence.) I’m thinking it might be a good time to use my MM and Lotus Ball in some select spots if we run into trouble. I can keep working on the RYG challenge if you think that would be a better use of time for us.
>>Practice Makes Plasticity (Not Perfect)
I like that phrasing!
>>Yes, the brain is a crazy creature!!!
To which brain are you referring?? I presume not the cat-sized one in your gut? 🤣 That’s so weird…
>>I don’t think it is more thoughtful… I think the next rep is more cautious, which is different. She added strides and was more careful and slower.
Yeah… I definitely don’t want slow and cautious. But the alternative of fast and scary isn’t appealing either. Ugh!
>>So if there is a jumping effort that goes totally awry, you don’t need to acknowledge it by stopping or marking. If it needs to be fixed for a safety reason, you can do a couple more jumps with more connection, reward, then go back and as you reset the jump – think about adjusting the handling to be able to give more motion and connection support
I will do my best to add this to the list of things to ignore and just keep running!! 🙂
