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Hi Bobbie,
I didn’t offer Monday as an option for our 1-on-1 sessions b/c my other dog has a standing PT appt on Mondays at 1pm, so it’s highly unlikely I would be back in time for a 2:30 session. However, I’m available Wed 9-10:30am and Tues 2-3pm. When convenient, please let me know what works for you.
Thanks!
SusanOK, so when I play “find my face” while getting “lost” on course, I will feed Avery from my hand as she heads toward me and then start tossing treats again. Thanks for the tweak!
OK to continuing the games several times/wk, varying the release/reinforcement strategy for station work on the Cato board, and continued use of Solliquin.
I do, however, wish to revisit use of the super bowl game/target for reinforcing the teeter and DW. Since Avery is so environmentally aware, I feel that the use of a plastic lid target for the DW 2o2o became a “safety net” for her, it reassured her without her having to think. (It was kinda like Linus and his blanket.) So to return to any type of target near the DW or teeter makes me very, very nervous b/c it wasn’t easy at all to fade the DW 2o2o target (and I was never successful at it…yep, could have been flaws in technique, but still a problem). Avery has a good history with the “dish” cue (I’d need to take it on the road more), but I’m concerned that placing a dish close to the edge of a contact will pull her into 2o2o (which would be highly undesirable on the teeter since she is all of 12.5 lbs). Using blue painters tape on contacts at my class is very hard to do b/c it’s a dirt ring and the tape doesn’t really stick b/c of residual dirt on the contact surface…and I haven’t been able to find an alternative. In a nutshell, I am feeling very uneasy with the plan based on past experiences. Any additional thoughts?
Thanks so much for everything! You have done an amazing job with a large and active class. 🙂 I’ve appreciated your observations and suggestions, as well as your patience when I felt uncertain about specific techniques/approaches (thanks for helping me to work thru those roadblocks!).
With gratitude,
Susan & AveryHere’s a 2-minute video of us playing multiple games during a training session: treat toss pattern game, station work on Cato board, find my face after a tunnel, and super bowl game. (FYI: She knows “dish” to go to a bowl as part of her 2×2 training…so this is a well-known marker to her.) https://youtu.be/mbF5FmH30JY
Quick update on the Solliquin: Avery has been on it for about 3 wks. No major changes noted. BUT I’m wondering if it may be helping her GI tract a bit after training with lots of treats. After last week’s class, I was sure that I had fed her too many treats (I’m usually good about realizing that *after* the fact). But nope, normal stool (I won’t describe what can happen, lol, but I suspect a little stress colitis, since I tend to overfeed when things are stressful). I will continue to monitor.
Questions as the class wraps up:
1. Avery gets an annual 6-8 wk agility vacation to let her body/brain rest. She will start this year’s vacation right before Thanksgiving. Should I do any of this work with her over her vacation? I don’t want to overdo things, but I also don’t want to do too little.
2. What is the preferred placement of the bowl for the super bowl game with contacts? Given our past experience with the target for the DW 2o2o, I’m concerned that Avery will come to expect the bowl and then slow down when it’s not there. I also don’t want the bowl to pull her off the DW (yes, food is VERY salient to Avery, lol). I have been trying to reinforce the teeter and the DW after the next jump/tunnel in the sequence, so that reinforcement is in play, but not always after completing the contact. And how long do we do this? It would take me years to get hundreds of reps of this game done since it’s not really feasible to do at home.
3. Should I use the Cato board ONLY for station work? I have some stopped contact games I can play on a Cato board, but I don’t want to confuse her.Finally, these seem to be the games in class that have the most appeal to Avery. Do you concur? Am I missing anything?
• Relaxation conditioning on mat
• Pattern game treat toss (with hand touch added sometimes)
• Find my face (with “snack” option)
• Snuffle mat
• Shadow handling
• Cato board station work (which will eventually evolve into adding pressure on the start line)
• Super bowl game for teeter/DW
• Modulating emotions (assignment 8)
• Take the show on the road (assignment 9, haven’t done much with that yet)
• Building impulse control under pressure (assignment 10, haven’t tried it yet)
• Decompression (maybe walks, treats in boxes, etc)Thanks!
Yes, she is slower on the DW and teeter at a trial than at home (especially) and in class (although her speed can vary).
A running DW would be a huge NOPE! I bought a fancy schmancy $400 online course to train a running DW, and we never got past week 1. She had absolutely no interest in running over a mat. My instructor and I discussed this, and my instructor said that a running DW takes a lot of precision…which is something that Avery doesn’t necessarily like (I suspect she feels pressure to be “right” and then it goes downhill from there). In contrast, she loved the PVC box for the running AF from the beginning, but that doesn’t require much precision and it’s pretty easy for her to be “correct” since she is so tiny. Right now I am releasing her quickly from the DW contact at trials to try to relieve pressure. She loves the DW at home and we actually have to keep the ramps elevated b/c she insists on getting on it…and jumping off from above the contact zone (don’t want to see her get hurt or learn undesirable behaviors).
To teach both the DW and AF, I let her put her feet on the equipment and get on/off as she liked. She progressed to traversing the entire obstacle at her own pace (no luring or leading her over it). I taught the DW 2o2o using a travel board, which she liked…then the pandemic hit and I think I did too much practice striving for precision (b/c it was easy to do at home and I was taking Tracy’s class, which was fun). She did great 2o2o’s with a target, but once you took that away…nope…even with fading the target. I took a sensitive dog class that was quite good and that instructor and I discussed this…and we both thought a 4on for both the DW and teeter would be a better fit for her.
Yes, we took your teeter class, which went great…until we started to sequence teeters in class. My other dog is 180 degrees different from Avery…once she learned the teeter, it didn’t matter where the teeter was at. For Avery, everything can make a difference to her performances and I didn’t understand that at the time. So I had a lot of missteps with her. Since I didn’t understand what was going on for her, I spent a lot of time being confused/not knowing how to help her, and I believe that further added to her big feelings about an error. My instructor has been great and we have done a lot of hard work to build resiliency in Avery to keep trying. When I first started class with my current instructor, Avery would quit after a single blooper. Now she can keep repping (although we watch how much we do with her) and she bounces back from errors, even in a trial. I have also taken as many classes as I can to learn more about what makes Avery tick, and I’ve made a lot of progress in responding to her challenges with empathy and confidence.
Doing more DW/teeter work at home has not gotten me anywhere. (Because of the trees in our yard, I can’t really put the DW or teeter into sequences, let alone hard sequences.) This feels like a “take it on the road” issue, at least to me, but I am not certain how to do it. I can be persuaded to look at this from a different POV, so I’m looking forward to your observations. 🙂
Before class started today, we did some station work on the Cato board far outside of the arena. Should I try to line up Avery into a sit from my side, instead of from in front of her? I thought of that question today, since me standing in front of her blocks her view of the ring. After class was over, we did the modulating emotions exercise (almost a 9-min vid, feel free to watch any piece that you wish): https://youtu.be/xK1J1K3psts You can see the arena in the distance (open door, lights on). I thought this went well, but if you have any feedback, let me know.
Thanks!
Yes, let’s have some discussion on her teeter and DW performances. 🙂 I feel like both of them are related to the start line in that it’s time to do some new conditioning work, but I am not sure how. I switched from a 2o2o on the DW to a 4on (like her teeter) b/c the two different stopped behaviors seemed confusing to her. (She has a running AF.) She will literally spin on the teeter…fortunately she stays on. I need to stay connected to her on the teeter (that’s why I am looking at her and holding my arm out to give her a target to focus on). Her weaves feel like a “thermometer” for her…I can tell how she’s feeling based on her speed. But the DW and teeter in trials are always slow at this point, which tells me she is thinking “not fun,” and I truly want her to enjoy herself, like she does at home.
The video includes two examples of teeter/DW performances at a trial and then in a recent class: https://youtu.be/Byd5IKSpv54
New topic: I tried the “hunt for kibble in boxes” decompression exercise. It took about 4 minutes…how long should she spend doing that? I could reload the boxes with kibble while she hunts, but then I think that could lead her to follow me as opposed to making choices on her own. I’m experimenting to see how I can make decompression work for us without going on a long nature walk, which presents its own challenges due to her severe motion sickness.
Thanks!
You wrote: So when you say manage Find My Face when your instructor is speaking with you, do you mean that you are concerned Avery might not be clear about what she should do?
No, I mean I am not sure what *I* should be doing. 🙂 In the video it appears to me that I am way more focused on taking in my instructor’s feedback than I am watching her…maybe I am missing opportunities to reinforce her for “find my face?” as a result? Or she perceives my behaviors as a disconnect?
Questions, since we are reaching the end of the class 🙁
1. We’ve both agreed that motion is a good idea for Avery. When I toss treats on the start line, that gets her in motion (good!). But I am starting to think about what I will be able to do at trial start lines when there is no food. What options, other than hand touches, can I consider to keep her in motion at the start line until I cue her sit? I realize I may need to try some options to see what she likes. Her default behavior is to stand and bark at me (not frustrated, seems happy), but I’ve never decided if the barking helps her or not.2. As part of the work on her sit at the start line, you recommended sometimes releasing her forward without taking the obstacle. I interpret this meaning that some unpredictability will take pressure off of her. So I am wondering…should I build in some unpredictability at the start lines at trials to help relieve pressure? Specifically, I am wondering if I should just do a running start with her sometimes (which yes, I am capable of doing).
3. Avery continues to slow/think about the DW and the teeter (she does for the weaves as well, but I notice she’s getting more speed in them when she’s feeling good). Do you have any recommendations for counter-conditioning those obstacles? She has a 4on for both obstacles (the DW 2o2o seemed to be creating too much confusion for her). The teeter has been interesting…she had a negative experience with the teeter in class in February and the instructor left it in the same spot for 3 weeks. Avery’s teeter performances in trials vary from confident to turning around on the teeter to get off. Usually I can tell what performance I’ll get from how she loads onto the teeter (slowing before the board means she’s thinking about bailing). If I notice her starting to turn on the board, I can call her and she will complete the teeter. Yes, I can provide video.
Thanks!
Thanks, again, for all of your helpful feedback!
Today Avery and I stopped into a local PetSmart on our way to class. (I needed to pick up more training treats.) She probably hasn’t been in a store like that since before the pandemic. She handled all of the environmental stimulation quite well — sniffing, finding a loose piece of kibble on the floor (chomp!), checking in with me, offering a default down when nothing was going on. I was very pleased that she managed her sensitivities so well in a stimulating environment (although the store wasn’t super busy).
Video of start lines from class today, plus a handler error for your feedback: https://youtu.be/YcEvzcDAxpM
I’m pleased with her start lines today (happy, fast sit on 1st cue each time!). But I am always willing to make changes to improve, so feel free to comment. I also included a clip of a handler error (starts around the 1 min 23 sec mark)…I would really, really appreciate feedback on how to better manage “find my face” when my instructor is talking to me (I feel like I drop the ball and need a better plan!).
Finally, I promised to follow up with you re: your concerns that Avery might have a physical issue that explains some behaviors you noticed in the trial video you watched of her when the class first started. Avery saw Dr. Chris Zink yesterday for a sports med wellness visit, and she was very pleased with Avery’s structure and gait. While we have some fitness work to do to strengthen Avery’s shoulders and hamstrings, she feels that Avery is in good shape overall. So I feel comfortable with us focusing on the behavior part of Avery’s situation, since I truly believe that’s where she is struggling.
Thank you so much!!!
Thanks for the very helpful feedback! Most appreciated.
Question: We played the game with the Cato board this morning. She is still eyeing the board very hard when I am tossing treats. Is this anything to be concerned about? It’s good she has a positive association. When I notice her eyeing it, I try to get my treat tossed even faster to keep her in the game.
Here’s the video of our first attempt with assignment 8 (emotional modulation) – it’s 9 min long (we got thru two rounds of play/RC): https://youtu.be/mTCwlwwBioE
Should I interrupt her hunt for treats? She did this after round 1 and I let her monkey around for a bit. I assume that the release from the mat after RC work should be gentle/slow? Normally I train for an explosive start, but that feels like it would defeat the purpose of the exercise. 🙂
Thanks!
Hi Bobbie!
Joanne and I have been chatting. 🙂 But this reply is the first one after your last comment, so you don’t have to scroll any further to know where to start. 🙂
Video of our first session of Cato board work for stationary training: https://youtu.be/XrDwcRcf_fM
I’m not exactly sure where I should be standing in relation to the board or how to get her to load on (straight? make turns?). So any and all feedback to improve my technique will be appreciated. Avery has strong value for elevated beds (with an automatic down) which appeared during this session. I love her enthusiasm!Thanks for the reminder to periodically release Avery after a sit. Since she acts differently in various contexts, I tend to focus on solving the difference as opposed to “regular” training.
Thanks also for bringing up Phuncky’s slow sits and how you manage that (super helpful info!). I feel like I need a strategy for Avery’s slow sits on the start line, b/c I suspect that my response (confused about the best course of action) has contributed to her icky feelings about the start line. In the past, I gave it 3 tries, but since Avery likes to be “right,” I don’t think that’s a good fit for her. When I couldn’t figure out what to do, I didn’t ask for a sit and just let her stand…which she would hold, but I never felt comfortable with (so the icky feelings continued). Kneeling with her at the start line as I take off her leash has helped, but not completely resolved the situation. So do you think it’s best for me to use the strategy “1 cue for sit, I will accept what you give me b/c that’s the best you can do at that moment, and I will stay positive?” Kinda like how if she misses a jump, I just keep going to prioritize flow and to avoid pointing out an error. I am open to feedback on this, I am trying to brainstorm. But the clearer the strategy in my mind, the better off we are as a team. 🙂
Should I start practicing find my face at the start line (where, yes, sometimes I need to check out the environment)? At home with sequences? I feel like this is a game I don’t play enough b/c I have been focused on the Pattern Games/RC mat work. And I will add that Avery doesn’t like how tunnels create a disconnect…a tunnel at the start of a course is especially hard for her and even worse if it is a 20 ft DARK blue tunnel. At home I can cover up a tunnel and it can be first…doesn’t matter to her. But at a trial, that disconnect is tough on her. So are there any special precautions I should take about trying find my face after a tunnel? I’ve worked hard on making sure I reconnect with her after tunnels and I don’t want her to feel that I have become unpredictable.
I am really liking the concept of assignment 8!! But I need some help. 🙂 Avery is not toy motivated, so toys are out. Her food games generally involve treat tosses or throwing food stuffable toys…are those OK for this assignment? I don’t want the Pattern Game concept of food tosses to confuse her (not sure that’s an issue, but I want to be thoughtful about that). Our other challenge is taking it on the road. Avery’s severe motion sickness means she must take 4 scripts for every car ride. We regularly have issues with unleashed/unsupervised dogs in our neighborhood, so just taking her mat somewhere else near where we live doesn’t feel comfortable to me. I assume that I could do this work before class if I keep it far away from agility? Our class is held in a riding arena with several acres around it…I could easily set up far away from the arena in our initial work…or stop some place on our way to class to do some practice. Do you have any other suggestions? I will need to brainstorm this some more…I get the concept and I like it, I just need to figure out how to operationalize it for our situation.
Thanks!
Great, thanks for the clarification on “RC.” I will start to incorporate hand targets into the Pattern Game. I agree that Avery needs motion/dynamic action or else she tends to start to (over)think. Thanks for the clarifications on the RC exercise. I’ve been able to do it 6x/week so far, but it’s good to know that I can scale back some when needed. It took weeks for my OCD dog to start relax with the RP, but her situation was vastly different. Hearing your comments (at yesterday’s live zoom mtg) about how Topper responds to the RC was super helpful as well.
Here’s video I took over two different days on our current start line work: https://youtu.be/9REgSlHtJ1A
The clip from the agility field is our final “run” of our rental time. The first “run” was just working the start line with treat tosses (at this jump and a tunnel), and the second “run” we worked the start line and then ran a course. So by this clip she was patterned to the activity. I plan to work this exercise in front of a tire as well, since Avery notices differences in equipment.
Question: How should I start incorporating the Cato board into this start line work? I don’t want her bouncing off of it to get treats. But I also don’t want her to get too stationary b/c then she’ll start to (over)think.
Thanks a bunch!
Hi Bobbie!
Joanne sent me a msg on this thread, so I sent her a reply msg in a new thread (hope that’s OK, if not, please tell me what I should have done instead). 🙂
But I have a post above Joanne’s msg that you haven’t seen, so if you wouldn’t mind scrolling up, I’d appreciate it. 🙂
Thanks!
First, I wish to thank you so much for your willingness to dialog with me re: Avery and some of her challenges! We have tried a lot of techniques already, some of which have worked and others haven’t. I try to approach my work with her as peeling back the layers of an onion (similar to how therapists often explain the transformation process to their clients!). Instead of just applying techniques, I try to really delve into the rationale behind them and consider how that fits with what I know of Avery. So I greatly appreciate folks who are willing to do that with me.
Avery’s highest value treats are chicken giblets (which I used for teeter training) and freeze-dried green beans (which are not the greatest reinforcer for training b/c of how they break apart…but they are quite good for jackpots). I will work more with those treats in training and see where it gets me. I will continue to rely on string cheese and boiled chicken for pattern games, since they are easily seen when tossed.
In your reply, are you using the term “RC” to apply specifically to the exercise with the mat or more generally to class techniques that influence the HPA axis? I just want to make sure that I am following you correctly. 🙂
It sounds like adding periodic hand touches to a pattern game would be a good thing to do at this point? If yes, do you recommend I reinforce her from my hand or just immediately re-start tossing treats? I can see that either could be helpful, so I’m debating.
I’m implementing sessions of just working the start line (with a single jump which I may or may not cue her to take) followed by snuffle mat work. I plan to add in other easy cues over time as part of the work to build a different emotional response to the start line. Please feel free to make suggestions on other ways to approach this, I realize I may be overlooking key points. But “splitting” the work into this type of exercise (as opposed to always “lumping” in a class scenario/sequence) feels like a good fit for us right now.
Last question: What is a reasonable goal for the RC mat exercise for Avery? When my other dog did the RP for Dr. Overall, she was able to get to soft eyes, slow eye blinks, rocking on a hip, and slower, deeper breathing. Avery is activated by food and she will happily stay put for 10 minutes because she wants those cookies. The RC mat exercise has parallels to her behavior mod plan in the car for travel phobia…I toss kibble back to her as we ride. She is comfortable riding in the car that way, but I describe her as alert (although not on guard or anxious). I can view the RC mat exercise as a type of pattern game. However, I don’t see Avery achieving the relaxation level that my other dog did, which I thought was the point of this type of mat work? Do I need to reframe the goal for Avery?
Thanks!
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I’ve been mulling over your feedback as I endeavor to put a plan together for Avery. I really appreciate that you released the reinforcement strategy lecture at this juncture, since reinforcement has been on my mind as I considered your feedback.
I like the idea of playing a pattern game, ask for sit, assess the quality of the response to the sit cue, and based on that, start the sequence or go back to the pattern game. I feel like that approach has clarity for both of us, and avoids the punishment she feels if I remove her from the start line for a low-quality sit. I will give it a try and see what happens.
Questions:
1. I assume that I should be using a higher value treat to reinforce a good quality sit at the start line? I confess, I tend to use string cheese for most training, and I had been thinking about that even before the reinforcement strategy lecture was released.2. I want to preface this question by saying that I am not disagreeing with the neuroscience behind use of the snuffle mat. But how can I decide on the time frame for its use with Avery’s competing needs? Specifically, other pros that I have worked with have recommended that Avery’s reinforcement strategy be high energy with as much motion as I can provide (even putting food-stuffable toys on strings to keep them in motion once she gets to them). Because she defaults to stillness/thinking, the goal is to shift her to doing and to reinforce that. From a sports med perspective, I always keep her in motion after a run as part of her cool down. While I get the Yerkes-Dodson Law and understand that overarousal can present as shut down/lack of speed, 2 minutes of snuffle mat after 2 minutes of work doesn’t make sense to me from either a reinforcement strategy or sports med perspective. (TBH, after a run, I am working to down regulate myself, and there is no way that I would be able to listen to my meditation app until at least 10 minutes after the run.) Two minutes of snuffle mat after a cool down does make sense to me. Help?
3. Where I really need help…I have incredible success with Avery *outside* the ring because I can use food. But once I leave the food behind, I have almost no tools in my tool belt. Do you have suggestions for addressing this? For example, with my dog who has obsessive-compulsive disorder and gets highly activated when overaroused, I learned to carry her into the ring instead of walking her in (being in my arms kept her arousal more balanced) and to keep all of my communication with her and my own emotions cool and focused (to avoid adding fuel to her arousal). While she was on the table (which was extremely hard for her to do because of her sky-high arousal), I learned to accept a stand instead of a down (that was a compromise we reached together), to keep about 6 feet away, and to softly smile at her (to avoid putting pressure on her, which only increased her arousal). I have no tools at all like this for Avery. Help?
Thanks!
SusanI finally got to video the “train for 2 min, snuffle mat for 2 min, repeat” sequence that you asked me to do. I edited out the “down time” of getting the snuffle mat out and then putting it away, as well as reloading the treat ball. Please let me know what you think.
I would normally play a game of high energy “bouncy ball” after a training session, but didn’t here. I still feel uncertain about what to do with snuffle mat in terms of training/trialing. I will freely admit that this is not the “best” training here…we need to practice pushes and wraps, but her speed here was much faster than in class so my timing is way off. I used this set up with my other dog so that’s why there are extra obstacles that we didn’t use.
Questions:
1. I rec’d my Cato board. I assume that I should spend the next week building a +CER before I use it with start line training, as you previously suggested? Avery has a very +CER to elevated beds, so I don’t think she’ll need much time.
2. When I play the treat toss game at the start line, I’m noticing that Avery will sometimes still get barky and/or slow to respond to my sit cue. Does this work just need more time? Or do I need to do something different?Thanks!
