[Cindi Delany]

Here’s a little quick and dirty session at the park this morning of “Focus Forward” and “Decel with Turns” from this week’s lectures.

Because he’s a little older than some of the pups and does have some foundation behavior stuff I think my goal is to work through the exercises and see if we can get to the Advanced versions in most cases. Also, where possible I’d like to keep in mind things to add in like speed, distance and location where it seems like that’s the best next step for him.

[Cindi Delany]

Busy work-day so we bundled training with our morning outing to a park. This is a new location for him, his first time actually off-leash at a park like this (he’s usually on a long line) but this area is pretty well fenced off.

We worked on “reverse retrieve” and “catch” as well as some “cheeseball ping pong.”

Goals for reverse retrieve were from your feedback – to get him lower and driving into the toy versus bounding toward it like a little deer.

On catch we were just looking for some more engagement and excitement/fun – instead of just dropping it where he was and looking at me like I was crazy we wanted him to bring it in to my feet before dropping it and/or engage in tug after catching it.

Cheeseball ping pong is just his all-time favorite game that I love as an acclimation test and reinforcer. We play it everywhere we go once he’s shown me he’s comfortable with the environment. I like it because it’s kind of a combo toy/food/action game, starts to build some distance and some counter motion stuff. Plus, cheeseballs, bonus points if I’m hungry and need a snack myself.

I did a high speed edit – just trimming to these games but not actually playing the video in real speed with audio. Praying I didn’t drop any f bombs or similar at any point. I think I got a little bitten at one point because the toy we are using here is smaller, harder for him to grab (tennis ball on a rope) but we used it since it throws farther than his hollee roller on braided fleece. We have been working on more accurate bites and he’s doing well but this was another level of difficulty. Apologies for anything inappropriate in here. 😁

[Cindi Delany]

Hey Tracy,

Super fun class last night.

I think the LMS has the live class recording labeled as Dec 1 in the week’s content list.

Cindi

[Cindi Delany]

Thanks for the feedback. 😁

The target in hand looks good too. A suggestion on changing mechanics a bit: the target was in your right hand, so that hand can stay stationary out to the side, elbow locked. After he touches it, the left hand can come over and deliver the treat to him at the target (then move him away with a get it toss). That will speed up the delivery (you can have the treat in your fingertips of your left hand before you present the target) and will change the placement to get the target hand super valuable and also so he doesn’t face you while waiting for the treat in front of you. It will make more sense when we put it in context (cliffhanger!)

Just a super short hand target session with first treat “at source” where the target is to build value. A bit fumbly between target, clicker and treats, gonna need a 3rd hand I think. 🤣

See you in the live class this afternoon (pacific time). 😊

[Cindi Delany]

When rewarding the out, try to either have the cookie already in your hand for a decent amount of time while continuing to tug, to ask for the out and dig the cookie out afterwards – the verbal and the hand-to-cookie-pocket were happening close enough in time that he might be pairing the movement of the cookie as the cue to release the toy (I have done that by accident in the past and the dogs learn very quickly to keep a grip on the toy until we reach for the cookie LOL! Oops!) I don’t think he is doing that at the moment and we want to avoid it.

Good point. I am a bit fumbly going quickly between food and toys. Half the time if I have treats pre-loaded in my hand and a treat in play I end up throwing them instead of the toy or just dropping them everywhere. 🤣

Two of my youngsters are frisbee-obsessed and I am lazy, so I taught them that the friz drop needs to be at my feet in order to get the next friz throw, and that has helped ( same with the tennis ball :))

Yes, I think I specifically/unintentionally or not taught him not to come ALL the way in so that the 8 lb mini poodle, Mighty Mouse, would have the space closer to me and not have to worry about getting trampled. So, poodle gets the spot by my feet, Ripley got the middle distance and the 13 year old got the farthest distance (her preference).

Toy races (and the collar-no-collar moment haha) look good! You can let the toy be ‘dead’ for gradually increasing amounts of time before driving to it. so that raises the value (ping pong the timing of letting him drive to it though, so it is not only all dead, all the time – sometimes the toy is moving, sometimes it has been dead for a few seconds, etc.)

Will do, sounds like a good plan.

One other thing – I don’t think he loves it when you let go of the toy during a tug game and he has to follow you with it – his body language is interesting there. I am just getting to know him, but in those moments early in the video when you let go of the toy and moved away, he did follow you with it but with an expression/posture of “what just happened?” and not a “heck yeah, game on!” expression/posture. It is really subtle – since we know that possessing the toy is not his favorite thing, you can maintain the tugging until you cue the out or present something else to do – all of that is valuable for him. Let me know what you think!

Yes, he is not always sure why the heck he “won” the toy since he doesn’t really seem to want to possess it, just engage in the tugging. So, good idea to give him a next cue rather than letting him win. If I just let him pull it away and don’t move at all I feel like he looks even more confused and will either try to shove it back in my hands or will drop the toy, so a next cue to get a nice chain will probably make more sense to him.

• This reply was modified 3 years, 5 months ago by Cindi Delany.

[Cindi Delany]

Hi Tracy,

Here’s some combo play – toys and food – from yesterday AM.

Sticking with his hollee roller on fleece tug here since it’s just the easiest for all the things and he does love it.

Using cheeseballs for any thrown food and just his puppy kibble for any hand to mouth delivery (takes too long for him to find it when I throw it on the ground and harder for him to catch out of the air).

We do take all of this on the road and play at this at agility shows where we go just to acclimate to new environments. He is able to take treats and play with his toys in those environments so far. Maybe just a little more need to sniff, especially as I think his hormones have kicked in a bit recently. 😁

I think catch the toy (vs heads for cheeseballs which he loves) is his least preferred. I think it was taught with a frisbee between throws when I would play a 3 frisbee game with him and 2 other dogs so he would catch it then immediately drop it to get his next throw (which is what I taught them to keep the 3 dog game in sync). I think if I turned it into a catch then immediately tug game he would like it more.

Also, he wishes I was smarter – at one point here I give his “collar” cue to put his collar in my hand and he’s not wearing a collar. He gave me a “you’re stupid” look 🤣.

[Cindi Delany]

We worked a little bit on the pre-games tonight. We’re a little sloppy and tired here after socializing at a couple of trials over the weekend but figured we should tape something to get feedback in case we need to clean anything up before Tuesday.

Hope you had fun at UKI US Open. I caught a couple of your runs on 4Legged Flix’s livestream and plan to go back through the recordings to catch the rest of yours and my friends who were there.

Looking forward to Tuesday’s first live class.

Question – How much space do you think I need for this week? I can use the room I taped this video in +/- the adjoining room where the other dogs are here. Or, I can set up outside on my front lawn (I’ve got lights for when it gets dark) OR if ever needed I can also probably use a friend’s covered agility arena.

Pre-Game 1 – object target and Pre-Game 2 – nose touch hand target

[Cindi Delany]

Tracy,

I really appreciate all of this feedback and advice. It is super helpful. I’ll work through all of these suggestions the rest of this week and next week.

I feel like we’re still in the pendulum swinging phase where sometimes our toy play is too crazy, so we put some structure on it, then it gets too structured so we need to swing the other way and hopefully some day end up in that sweet spot.

In that last session I think we were both trying to be calmer and less rambunctious to avoid inciting the mini poodle in his crate on the far end of the room and the older BC in the room next to us. Today we got all the other dogs settled where we’d be out of ear and eyesight and played in the front yard.

We also worked on grab the toy in the right spot a bit inside first (not videoed). We’ll keep in that as she described it.

He is a fan of motion (not surprisingly) so we played the 2 toy relay back and forth to get him driving in on the retrieve and he definitely liked it.

He’s a little odd (in a good way) in that he’s really not into possessing the toy. He really loves the act of tugging and talking about it (both with me and other dogs). When he “wins” he either tries to shove the toy back into your hands (or the other dog’s mouth) or just drops it. He never has won a toy and taken a victory lap or taken it away to possess it by himself. I swear I did not overtrain that – it came pre-installed. After needing to figure out how to get a super sensitive 8 lb poodle to tug with gusto I was SUPER careful to do lots of tiny tugs, puppy always wins with him and that’s just what he’s always done.

Just for fun I’m adding 2 clips to today’s session:
1. Baby Ripley in his first tug and retrieve session at 8 weeks
2. Ripley playing tug with our other dog’s butt last night – I swear I don’t make this stuff up. First the toy was sitting next to me and I put my hand on it, he was tugging and growling, even shifting his weight back, but not actually pulling back. I let go of the toy and it didn’t move an inch while he continued to pretend to tug. WTF 🤣? Then the Swissy sat on it and he did the same thing, pretending to tug, but not really pulling – he’s crazy!
3. 2 toy retrieve with me running today outside

[Cindi Delany]

This is great, specific feedback and awesome suggestions for next steps.

It is rainy, stormy and mucky out today so we went ahead and videoed some toy play in the house today too.

I had only read/watched the first toy lecture before I did it and hadn’t seen the combo lecture yet but do have a little combo stuff in here. I do often reinforce his toy drop with some cookies (just his kibble typically and in this session).

The only editing here was for some middle chunks of tugging (not the grab on cue or the release just the similar stuff in the middle) and a bit during toy retrieve when he had to get the toys that ended up between dog and real furniture.

Whoops, almost forgot the list of what’s in here:
1. Tug – bite toy and tug
2. Toy – go pick up dead toy
3. Chase – chase thrown toy and retrieve
4. Ready – casual toy release
5. Drop it – drop toy
6. Ready, steady – just spring winding stuff
7. Catch – catch underhand tossed toy
8. Hand up – drop toy in hand and release it
9. Hand down – bring toy into my hand for tugging
10. Bring it – extra encouragement to bring toy in if he’s not certain

Apologies for barking dog. 13 year old BC in another room in a crate was okay until it became obvious we were doing toy play and then she could no longer contain herself. 😁

• This reply was modified 3 years, 5 months ago by Cindi Delany. Reason: Typo
• This reply was modified 3 years, 5 months ago by Cindi Delany. Reason: Forgot lto include list of cues shown in the video in my post

[Cindi Delany]

Thinking of other activity reinforcers – he likes people a lot as far as interest in greeting them – hasn’t shown any fear or worry about anyone he’s met. But we’ve also done lots of moving out of the way for folks on trails so he doesn’t really expect to interact. The random times I offer him to go say hi he’s wiggly, happy but then quickly loses interest in the person and wants to chase a bug, watch ducks or something more entertaining.

He likes other dogs but can be a bit much for them these days now that he’s big and a teenager. He’s used to very rough and rowdy play with our Swissy and that tends to not be great in the settings we end up in. He also had a weird period of dog reactivity about 2 weeks ago while we were at dog camp so we’re working back up to where he was before that (prior to that he hadn’t really shown anything like that) and we’re aiming more for dogs are interesting but not a threat and don’t anticipate that I’ll be asking you to interact with them.

Here’s this morning’s session of food related location specific markers. We’ve ended up with quite a few. 😁 1. I’m a behavior nerd, 2. He really likes clarity. He doesn’t get fussy or not participate in training but did used to show some confusion when the reinforcer I was delivering or how I was delivering it weren’t what he expected. So, I’ve just added more over time to be super clear. He’s big into concepts so I try to use that to our advantage wherever I can.

So, this is:
1. Get it – treat thrown
2. Yes – dog moves to get treat
3. Nice – dog stays in position, treat comes to his mouth – room service
4. Take it – take the already accessible treat when cued
5. Heads – catch thrown treat
6. Dish – take treat from the dish
7. Tails – turn to take reinforcer behind you (our least used one so I added a hand cue here)
8. Follow cookie in hand – no verbal really just based on context and how I hold my hand – using pieces of kibble here as like a treat magnet

• This reply was modified 3 years, 5 months ago by Cindi Delany. Reason: Forgot #8

[Cindi Delany]

Here’s Ripley’s reinforcement hierarchy homework:

Reinforcement Hierarchy – Food
1. Cheeseballs – (they combine food and action)
2. Meat type jerky treat
3. Semi-soft flavored treats
4. Crunchy treats – meat, cheese, other
5. Kibble (lowest but he’ll actually work pretty darn hard for it)

NOTES:
Pup loves cheeseballs – I think he likes the taste but also has a deep history with us using them as thrown treats in training in pattern games, remote reinforcement, etc. So, nice +CER there and he can catch them out of the air where he is, chase them thrown on grass, dirt, etc. He will NEVER refuse one so far.

Essentially he never refuses any treats, even his puppy kibble. He doesn’t get fed meals in a bowl ever. He gets all of his food throughout the day during training or just to reinforce things I like.
If his arousal is higher he might get a LITTLE harder with his mouth but is never super sharky (at least not compared to my 13 year old he goes super sharky when aroused).
He does occasionally not fully swallow really small treats, like his kibble, but it doesn’t seem super intentional.

He, so far, will always switch nicely between food and toys (which I’m super appreciative of).

Reinforcement Hierarchy – Toys
1. Hollee Roller on braided fleece
2. Other tug with knot at end to not slide off
3. Ball on rope (but hurts when he thrashes since ball hits him in the head – he doesn’t seem to mind, but I can’t imagine it doesn’t have some impact)
4. Udder tugger – working on this being higher value since it’s easier for me (he’s medium on it so far but increasingly into it as his mouth has gotten bigger)
5. Ball or frisbee not on a rope – no tug option

NOTES:
He will usually play/tug anywhere. Sometimes if the space is challenging he may lose interest sooner so I try to keep play short when I can see he is more distracted and let him check out the environment more, sniff more and then come back when he’s ready/wants play. He’s good at chasing, retrieving and handing back thrown toys. He’s good at running to a dead toy, but not super amazing at always picking up a dead toy and bringing it to me. He may just pick it up and stand there waiting for me or waiting for me to call him in to tug it with me or ask him to give it to me to throw. So, I do want to do some more dead toy pickup work.

He historically has been a little inaccurate with his grabbing of tug toys so I’ve tended to go for larger ones that keep my hands safer.

He can be particular about thickness of braided fleece toys and prefers ones with a knot at the end so his mouth doesn’t just slide off.

Tennis balls on ropes he likes but he wants to grab the rope part to tug or just thrash and then the ball hits him in the head (he seems okay with this, but it’s kind of sad so I’ve been trying to get him to hold the ball part and let me have the rope if he wants to tug or thrash).

I want to try to increase the value of the udder tugger since it’s such a nice multipurpose toy and easier to carry than his favorite, favorite hollee roller on braided fleece.

P.S. He is a long-time and fierce thrasher, since he was a tiny puppy (like literally since he was less than 8 weeks old). I try to reinforce weight shift back and steady pull but the act of thrashing is quite enjoyable for him (less so for my shoulders and neck).

Reinforcement Hierarchy – Activity (only listing those I would want to use in a training setting)
1. Playing ready, steady, break in hose with firm stream (hose is off until I say break, then it turns on and he jumps in to grab the water).
2. Chasing cheeseballs back and forth in our cheeseball ping pong game (nice pattern game and he loves it) – “Get it” LSM for thrown treat
3. Catching cheeseballs – “head” LSM
4. Tugging with me with various toys – “tug” LSM for tugging, “toy” LSM for getting a dead toy
5. Training/games with interaction

NOTES:
These are all pretty highly ranked in general and usually done (at least 2-5) in every training session at some point. #1 is reserved for less often at home (since he gets so wet and then has to roll around on our new carpeting) but also at any show we go visit where I can find a hose.

So far he can do #1-3 in almost any environment at any time. #4 he can do pretty much anywhere but may lose interest sooner if the environment is busy, stressful, etc. #5 he can do to some extent at least in any environment as long as I pay attention to what he’s trying to tell me and adjust my expectations/the behaviors I ask of him accordingly. I do a bit of a Shade Whitesel ready to work protocol with him (can you hear and respond appropriately to your LSMs, can you do a simple behavior, can you do a harder behavior, before I consider him ready to really train in new or challenging locations).

I’m not including activities I don’t really want him to do in a training setting like playing with other dogs just because I don’t really want that to be a part of his training picture. He does play with our household dogs (3 year old Greater Swiss Mountain Dog, 4 year old Miniature Poodle, 13 year old Border Collie – who totally ignores him) and over time he’s done some puppy social things and had play dates with friends, but in training I really don’t want him to be thinking about opportunities to play with other dogs – at least not right now while he’s firmly a teenage and a bit complicated in his approach. He does also like to sniff and I’ll use “Go sniff” on decompression walks or when at a new location but I don’t really see using this in a training context as that would annoy him a bit.

As far as the camels are concerned, when I first got them I literally used an app on my iPad to create a database and log of what treats they did and didn’t like (including how much they liked it, cost, stickiness/residue, if it needed to be fresh or not, etc.)🤣 . So, I at least have a good feel for that with food treats. My camel is R+/clicker trained and super cute. Very fun to work with but reaction times are MUCH slower than a border collie. 😁🐫💗

[Cindi Delany]

Do you have the ones on Facebook set to “public” or do we need to do a friend request to see them?

[Cindi Delany]

Hi Anne,

I registered for it in late September so I know it is open to register. If you’re able to post here in the forum I think that means you are already registered, right? I don’t think the forum is visible until you do that.

Is it showing in your “My Courses” page for you?

Cindi

[Cindi Delany]

Thanks for that feedback on the grid exercise. Glad it didn’t look as bad to you as it did to me when I started reviewing the tape.

We worked on front and blind crosses from Week 2 today.

I thought he did well with these and seemed to read the side change pretty clearly.

Blind and Front Crosses – 1, 2 and 3 jumps

[Cindi Delany]

We worked on the 1 stride grid today since he hasn’t done a ton of grid work.

I tried to set the 3 jump bounce to a 1 stride at the beginning, but I set the first rep up to be too long and so he put in 2 smaller strides. That was with it set around 14′ (and on his first rep, so not really striding out yet).

I closed it down to about 10′ and that would have been a nice 1 stride for him but I can see in the video that because he’s reaching for that 3rd bounce jump he’s landing too close to it and needing to extend to get this at 10′ (in the moment I couldn’t tell that the bounce was too wide).

I think if I’d had those 3 bounce jumps set up closer together he could have more easily bounced right through, landing and taking off in the center between each of them and then landing more comfortable in an arc after jump 3 (so not having to reach for that jump 4).

So, he was reaching to find his takeoff for jump 4 at 10′, then just looks like he extended out and reached more when I moved it out to 12′ on rep 2 (which I was thinking would be the point at which he would decide to collect for a tight 2 strides).

I moved it out to 15′ feeling sure that would give him a nice 2 strides but instead he just extended out and basically left out a stride to take it as a single stride (and that’s still with the bounce too wide so still reaching for jump 3). Ugh!!

So, I extended it out to 18′ and finally got him to put in the 2 strides.

He’s pretty athletic and rarely touches bars, so he’s getting away with this stuff, without severe consequences for him but I do think it would be more ideal if he was a little more fluent in reading distances and adjusting his stride accordingly.

P.S. Toy is a lotus ball with treats in it, is always on the ground and about 2 strides after the last jump.

Jump grid – 3 bounce jumps to 1 or 2 stride ascending oxer

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