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Hi Tracy!
Thank you! 🙂
I wanted to show you an interesting clip from last night & would like your thoughts on what I did & if it makes sense- thinking on the neurological side of Sunnie. How is she interpreting what we are doing.
What I am trying out now is using the flying LB for check ins with me (loops, not chasing, random times) so she sticks close to me in anticipation of maybe a flying LB which she loves! I also reward by hand or just tossing treats. I mix it up so she is not just “heeling” & can wander a little bit. She will learn that being with me is a good thing <fingers crossed> When she chases the birds in the fence or runs to the end of the lead outside the fence and comes back I just do a food scatter – a quiet reward instead of another high speed chase of the LB. I am wondering if Sunnie is putting together chasing birds is a fun thing we do together. For example, outside the fence, I’m running after her because I dropped the leash, so she is like Yee Haw mom’s following me & then when I turned around (or I intercept her path) I get a super high reward, the flying LB. Does chasing birds= me & mom and then a really cool reward?
Here & there I have dropped the long line outside the fence because she was being so good with check ins, etc.. but it can change instantly , nose to the ground tracking their scent & she’s off before I have a chance to grab the lead. I know this is all common sense, just don’t let go of the lead (outside the fence) but she sucks me in thinking we are OK moving along with lead dragging on the ground! I am committed and saying it out loud, no matter what, lead HAS to be in my hand outside of the fence!
Ok, back to last night’s video clip. We just got home form the vet’s office, so she’s been confined for a bit so far- all day & the car ride to the vet’s office. I just wanted to let her blow off some steam & maybe get a little agility & trick training in too. On the way to the fence area Sunnie did her check ins & I rewarded with the flying LB and just cookies from my hand. No bird interest at all, but I”m sure she smelled them lol! The video starts when we first got in the fence area. The long line is on until we do agility. The birds were on the ground! I didn’t say anything until she came back to me on her own & gave her a food scatter (quiet reward) I also tried not to face her to encourage staying in that direction, I stood to the side so it would draw her back to me from the turn away/face me game. I told her to “go run” after the food scatter. Once she got that out of her system it was time to work. I have set up with jump stantions instead of tunnels for: the Shadow Handling: Pill Bug Games, kept it simple. We practiced Middle while reloading & rewarded her ‘work’ with the flying LB. I normally wouldn’t be doing ‘work’ with Kelsie in tow 😛 but it was a quick need to get the dogs out before I had to feed them dinner (it was late by the time I got home).
I guess what I am asking by showing you this video & my explanantion of what I’m trying is: will Sunnie learn that if she hangs around with me, then that makes the LB fly? The LB will encourage her to hang around with me?
Vs. if the LB flys whenever she takes off and we know she enjoys the LB, then is she likely to take off or look like she’s going to more often because that’s what prompts me to throw the LB?I may be totally off, just thinking of the flip side to the scenarios we are rehearsing. I value your opinion highly 🙂 and you are one of the few instructors I know that dives deep into the brain stuff like you do! 🙂
Birds inside was FUN! Sunnie could care less about the fan & the “birds” LOL sounds just like outside 😀
I put the bowls in different configurations too 🙂 and then we played tug afterwards! Really trying to remember to play & not just end with a food scatter. I remember better indoors than outdoors, probably because I can get her to play with toys in a nano second indoor lol!
Thank you!!
Hi Tracy!
Thank you, this all sounds GREAT!! 😀 OMG I just downloaded the Merlin App LOL!! Now I know what flipping birds are in my yard! What patterns games should we try? 😀
Here is a snipet of the exercise with 2 wings on either side- brilliant idea! And me running Spike. I edited it down, the whole session was about 6 min, there were multiple runs with Spike so that took up time. Sunnie came flying back, but I don’t think I did the right thing with her when she came back 🙁 I bet she thought I was talking to her as she frantically looked for snacks!
Before I actually started ‘work’ I walked around with Sunnie, did some tricks, let her go to the basket.
Hi Tracy!
Jeeze!! I never replied to your comments, so sorry 🙁 Thank you for your thoughts and ideas!!! 🙂
Burning question! 😀 If we are not (agility) training can I allow Sunnie to just wander around in the fenced area? When we get close to the fenced area, I let Sunnie take off to go in there. She makes a (fast) loop in there. I meet her at the end of the loop with a flying LB.
Here’s tonight’s session, a little bit of feel the wind in your hair and some free time – Go Run I’m telling her. She goes to her favorite corners & then comes back. She doesn’t quite know how to wander around….
I’m going to show you this in 2 parts. The “working” part & the free time part. Before we started working the drill (I edited this part out) I played with Sunnie for about a minute. Running & chasing me and tossing the LB. Was this the right thing to do? I wanted to maintain connection a bit and not just let her run willy nilly in there right off the bat. I was wondering if this tires her out- mentally or is a good run around with me a good place to start!
I did 6 reps in a row of the exercise – was that too much before I gave her a break? Maybe so, since she left me for the corner on rep 3. When I give her free time & she comes back (especially if it’s from one of the corners- looking for birds) I run & toss the LB. I feel I should reward her anytime she comes back to me, no? I’ve rewarded so many check ins in my yard that she doesn’t just go run. Well she runs – to her corners and comes back.
When you mentioned no chasing birds – you meant don’t allow it during the in between times when I was reloading my LB and lost connection in the previous video? You recommended a station, crate for those times, I can do that if I think I can’t multi task 😀 When I do allow her to have free time, can she can do whatever she wants? The corners seem to be her target zones! I can’t prevent her from going to those corners unless I have a leash on her. Also you meant no chasing birds in my yard (unfenced part) however she can look at them & then I say my Get It & toss the LB – like I have been doing?
Good Morning Tracy!
I hope your trip home was uneventful!
Ooh, I like that harness! Did you get it in purple?
Yes! Got it yesterday, it’s really nice quality and wasn’t too expensive for that color.I don’t know how to add a pic here (I can mess you the pic if you want 🙂 ) I fenced in a portion of the lower area of my yard Sunday. Last night we tried it out 😀 I probably should have asked you what was allowed in there before just winging it, but on the flip side I got some information I’d like to share 🙂
We tried the smiley face game with 3 wings (I have plenty tunnels, just didn’t have time to pull them out). This was the first time she was off leash in there & me doing some handling in a very long time (other than our private lessons a couple times a month 😛 )
I included our crazy handling 😛 and I also wanted to share what happened in between. I probably had another couple minutes of the same scenario you are seeing of Sunnie leaving to run to the back corner and coming back. I tried to remain in motion as well as the LB when she came flying back to me! I’m not sure how to handle the disconnect after she finishes the LB. When we are training (at my lesson) while she’s eating the snacks from the LB I make sure I’m right there to keep connection, feed her more while praising and then transport back to the start of the rep or where ever. I very seldom leave (sometimes I slip!) her to her own devices. She’s already an independant soul, I don’t need to feed that more! Outside some of the disconnect comes from me loading the LB. I do have a couple of them in my pockets. Oh I also had a pouch of raw too. I’m using a measuring spoon to give it to her LOL
I get this disconnect in the yard (outside the fence) too! See bird, move forward, I say Get It, meet Sunnie, more snacks while I load the LB, when she’s finished, she runs off. Like in the video. How much freedom do I give her in the fence? On the upside, she got to run (safely) and came back each time I said Get It, but is that enough & the right scenario to practice? 😛
I wanted to show you a little “agility” practice and the scenario in the fence! I do want to stay on course with Sunnie with the bird training…..
Perfect! Keep me posted on how her ball/frisbee obsession develops 🙂 You can play agility games with them, in the house or agility places.
Will do! I did throw a frisbee in the fence, she ran to it, put her nose on & left once it didn’t produce snacks. I did try to make it animated, but too soon for that obsession outdoor LOL! I just wanted to try, see what would happen, the curious human lol!
Happy, relaxed, engaged feelings without scanning for birds 🙂
Wow, me too! Do you really think that is attainable with this nutbar?! lol! 😀
Thank you!!
Hi Tracy!
Ok! We will work on playing with the frisbee and ball indoor. I’ll see which one she likes better & play play play! We played with both when she was little, so time to bring them out again & get her crazy for them 🙂
A friend of mine is giving me her lotus ball that is covered in fur! CR has then but they are expensive, so I didn’t buy it, glad I didn’t 😀 I found a bird on amazon that has feathers & chirps, no catnip. We’ll see if I can shove this into a hollee roller lol!
I actually have a ruffwear harness from when Lexie was a puppy! 🙂 Fits Suunie, but I need a handle so I bought one on Amazon lol! The one I have works ok for today, but I need that handle lol! Thank you for sending all those links- appreciate that! 🙂
enhancement learning is a powerful tool.
YAY!!!
And that cascade creates almost an addiction to the chasing so it increases rather than decreases (very similar to me and coffee haha)
But stopping the big run will stop and prevent that cascade of what is likely happening inside her and help you steer things into the feelings we want her to have! Think of it as going cold-turkey on bird chasing: simply can’t happen anymore.Well, sh*t! I let her chase this evening! 🙁 Feeling comfortable on the long line and handling it, I was picking up jumps & such so I could mow & get that fence up before more rain comes tomorrow. She started out low > stalking> then took off when the birds flew & I was too late to catch the leash. She was in the safe area so I didn’t panic but got myself in front of her so when she turned she saw me & the flying LB. Made our way back up to the house and I starting thinking about what just happened & came right here to ask you if Sunnie is allowed to ever chase birds again……. For a moment in time, while outdoors, I didn’t keep a firm thumb on her and thought it’s ok if she stays in the safety zone, but clearly it’s not. SH*T! I should have made notes this morning when I read your comments! We were gone all day so all I wanted to do when I got home was take the dogs out. OK, answered my own question…. no more bird chasing! Sorry Tracy! Sorry Sunnie! ooof!
help you steer things into the feelings we want her to have
What feelings do we want her to have? 😀
This is the harness I got. Will it work? <fingers crossed> I can always return it if you think it’s not a good one!
Thank you Tracy!!
Thank you for your thoughts! 🙂
You can tweak any game into a smaller version of it to play indoors, or see if you can grab a ring rental in a bird-free location 🙂
Ok cool! RR might be harder to come by now that Dream Dogs has another full time instructor (Annie Pyle, I take privates with 🙂 ) My other option is a pole barn, has birds that Sunnie didn’t care about, haven’t been there in awhile, but I will keep that one in mind. An hour drive for minutes of training lol! Maybe I can share with a friend!
I am ALWAYS in your circle!!!!
Appreciate that!! 🙂 This prey training is HARD and not everyone gets it! 😀
Have you considered using a harness?
It’s the only thing I use since she came home! Sunnie has a collar on for ID, but I never have her on leash with her collar. She would choke herself 🙁
That is why I am thinking of trying to create a tennis ball or frisbee obsession to replace the bird obsession. Try some tennis balls in the house and a frisbee and see what she says!
I recently tried a frisbee & ball outside, she’s runs after it, but that’s it. Loses interest in it. I had her on the 30ft & lost her to the birds when I wasn’t quick enough to meet her at the toy. She got sight of a bird and ran, I was lucky tho’ I was able to get her attention with our Get It game! I can get her to play with literally any toy in the house. When it comes outside, right now only food toys are sustainable. If Sunnie had a retrieve, ball or frisbee would be an excellent game for outside! I bought a fun cool toy that I tried outside, it only worked if I shoved food in it. It’s a small hollee roller with a handle, but there’s fuzz in the hollee roller so it sorta holds larger treats. But I’m game to teach her to get these toys to “work” outside!
>That only works if she runs towards the back of the yard where there is fencing & I am lateral to her! If I’m behind, I’m left in the dust! In the video I’m using a 10 ft leash. Tonight I had her on a 30 ft leash, we were playing a hunting game >
You can stick to the scenarios that work well, and build it up from there. Success is the key, even if it is in certain scenarios and you don’t worry about the other scenarios yet.
You mean don’t let her chase birds?! 😀 I’m trying real hard, but the moments when I lose her is when I think she’s going to come back but has different ideas. I’m trying to watch her body language, the sniffing – is she tracking the birds or food cumbs (there’s a lot in the yard lol) It’s the visual movement that gets her in chase mode, if the bird is still, she is still for a moment & I have a chance to wait for the orient (holding leash tight so she can’t run) & play the Get It game!
Love it! That likely falls into the location enhancement version of learning – where we literally enhance where we can the dog to look & go to by us moving to it and looking at it.
I’m assuming this is a good thing right ?! lol! Maybe it will help her with keeping close proximity?! 😀
We have a Brain Camp shirt that says “I’m not naughty, it is my neurons!”
How do I get this shirt??!! 😀
Here’s a video of the hunting game & an example of how I lose her to the birds! I thought she would come back like the first rep! Nope off to the races! The corner she runs to is the hot spot, she’s always drawn there, even if we walk in that general area, she wants to go there, sometimes we do go there when I know there aren’t any birds. At about 35/36 sec is when I threw the LB.
Hi Tracy! I’ve started a post million times in my head, but wasn’t sure if it was Ok since at the moment all I have is bird activity to report 🙁 The weeks have gone by, I feel like I’m behind in the games & got overwhelmed finding a game that will work indoors. Then I turned the focus back on the flipping birds. But I need you in my circle, on the hard days you always find a way to make them not so “hard”! You motivate me & make me feel like the impossible will be possible! 🙂 Not to mention you crack me up too! LOL! So here I am again 😀
Here’s what we have been up to. I have a little basket at the bottom of the ramp off the deck (I had a target but it was getting lost in the grass) so Sunnie has a focus as she runs down. She sticks her head in (the sides are low she can see around) I toss some cookies in, when she gives me eye contact or looks up I give her another cookie and off we go whether it’s to go potty or take a stroll into the yard & work on the birds or down to the super bowl line up. I’ve been using all different length leashes, trying to figure out what works best to keep her safe and my hands in one piece! She has taken off a few more times these past 2 weeks 🙁
The video shows you how she checks in, but goes to the end of the leash, gets jerked because I’m holding on and then comes back for a cookie. This is what I was asking you about if this is what she has learned that it’s ok to get jerked & then turn back for a cookie 🙁 The video also shows you how forceful she is when she sees birds & wants to chase. What I am trying to do here is, let her look, when she orients back to me I say Get It & throw a Lotus Ball & we have a party together. The episodes where she got away from me to chase I was able to get her back by saying Get It & throwing the LB in her view. She loves the Get It game. I have used raw in the LB and also for check ins while on leash, especially when we are near the corner of the yard where she runs to. The birds are everywhere, but Sunnie’s hot spot is the corner by the garage and pool. I try to use a variety of treats in the yard, raw, dehydrated raw, string cheese. I use kibble too for scatters & mixed in with the other stuff.
I did buy some snow fencing so at least I can have an enclosure for some agility training, if she can handle it. That’s this weekend’s project! 😀 I want her to think of the yard as our playground (like it used to be!) not the freaking bird sanctuary which I feel like she does now, so much scanning going on after check-ins. I still have to buy a fan on a pedestal for your indoor idea! 🙂
Back to classical & operant. Do you think the behavior I’m trying to create – stare at bird >orient to me > I say Get It> LB goes flying – is classical or operant & will it sustain? All this obviously has to happen before the chase, it’s a heck of alot harder to interupt the chase, but I have done it & Sunnie got lots & lots of snacks!! That only works if she runs towards the back of the yard where there is fencing & I am lateral to her! If I’m behind, I’m left in the dust! In the video I’m using a 10 ft leash. Tonight I had her on a 30 ft leash, we were playing a hunting game 😀 I drop kongs or LB when she isn’t looking and then run over to it and say wow what is this, she comes running & we “look” for it together 😀
Please feel free to tell me your thoughts! The good, the bad, the ugly LOL!! You dive deep into their brain & feelings like no one else I know does! This facinates me & I want to help Sunnie! I do think she tries hard! 🙂
Thank you!!
LOL! I bought those, but in Medium as the chart showed my measurement, but they are too tight 🙁 in Pink even! 😀
You might want to consider gloves – we sometimes wear them in flyball for the dogs that are hard on the tug or we tug on the ball in their mouth. There are lots of cute colors too! That way your hands won’t hurt as much.
Yes please! Any recommendations? 😀
Hi Tracy!
Thank You!!!
the very first thing you do is step outside and pair that moment with a really engaging powerhouse of a reward. Then you can potty, or do some other games with more powerhouse rewards (games that can be done on leash and are relatively simple so she will get those rewards/reinforcement), then back in the house.
Sunnie is targeting the bowl or little target at the bottom of the ramp. Is it ok that she does that or am I supposed to teach her to keep her engagement with me all the way down the ramp until we hit ground? The target or bowl has been in that spot for awhile so she knows it’s there. I had the super bowls line up close by there too, but I moved them way down. She was getting distracted by them when she should have been going to potty.
Here is a little clip of us going down the ramp & then a quick game of super bowls but with little targets. This is actually our 2nd round, the first was with bowls down at the other end of the yard. I forgot to move the tablet so I never got it on video! 1st time down the ramp I let go of the leash because she already targeted the target & it would have been a pulling fest down the ramp. My hands hurt from an outing at the park last night 🙁 I wanted her to explore, no definite pattern, just letting her go where she wanted to go & it turned out to be constant jerking on the long line & then birds appeared 🙁 Back to the ramp, 2nd time I fed her down the ramp, every time she checked in I gave her a cookie.
Btw – I have raw in my treat pouch. Took me a minute to navigate the leash with my clean hand, dispense rewards (kibble down the ramp) & the hand that had raw all over it 😀
Her leash walking doesn’t always look like this. The leash is about 5 ft, so when she wants to sniff and find dropped cookies lol it gets tight, she moves fast! I haven’t found a happy medium on leash length, I need it short, but would like to give her a bit length to sniff too or to potty.
I will get you a video of how the leash walking goes.
Forgot to mention- all I have is a box fan 🙂
Also, Sunnie has done “pattern” games in the yard for a while now too 🙂 Basically all I’ve done since I put “agility” skills on the shelf. The one thing that has me thinking too is, if I should let go of any exercise that is operant- for example has our leash walking become operant now ? pulls & then stares when birds are in view whether on the ground, on the fence or in flight- I interrupt & feed? Do I constantly have to not be predictable – don’t walk in a straight line while we are on leash in the yard? Yard time is hard if I am not allowed to let her “be a dog” like just casual walking around since we can’t train. I guess all these years with my other dogs I know the yard as – potty (obviously lol) train & play. Now I’m at a loss on what I CAN do with Sunnie 🙁 This puppy is taking me on a whole other level of a journey! 🙂
Good Morning!
Lots of stuff to absorb!! 🙂 Thank you for diving a bit into the dopamine box. I understand now how it doesn’t apply here with the birds. I understood it as if was giving her good feelings so she would choose this over the birds in time, help her with arousal since that’s what the birds give her a HIGH, but that HIGH is really the chase?! Maybe the box better used for helping them overcome a “hard” situation like a vet visit or something?
Thank you for going into classical conditioning vs operant – why we want classical & not operant with the birds. I saw first hand how the box turned into operant. I did this & it was a good test for me to show how the box has developed, exactly how you told me, it became an operant & the classical part is her running to it, right? So you can set up a target in the yard (food bowl, etc) and go out to it and immediately drop a handful of steak in it… then back in the house. Classical conditioning: outside being paired with amazing food, no operant questions or choices required for now.
I used a little basket (which she thinks is a “box”). I grabbed some raw food, we ran off the deck & to the basket. well she saw it & ran to it. I fed her & turned to run back in, but she didn’t move & kept her head in the basket (box)! Now if I use a bowl or target discs she won’t do that. As you know we use the bowls for DISH (my cue) – a target in agility or even just a game in the yard, I send her to the bowls and she comes back, then we go to the next one for a send and so on… The little target discs I have (in the yard) we play the super bowl game with or sometimes just the up/down game. Do you think I should ditch the box since that has taught her to keep her head in the box. Use it in scenarios where she needs a little help, like at the vets office? I was using the Box next to where the birds are thinking that the box & the feeling it was givign her would override the desire for the birds. Is it corrrect in saying that all I created was an operant behavior of keeping head in the box in various situations? And when I say Box to her & she goes running to it, it’s the running part that is classical (she loves that) & then the operant behaviro is her just keeping her head in the box? Has zero to do with dealing with birds in my yard?
You also mentioned: I think the key is going to be more on the associative learning side of things (classical conditioning) and not the operant side of things (shaping or self-control exercises). Classical conditioning is more powerful and operant stuff will lose out every time at this stage.
YES! I think I understand this – I need to some how associate the birds & being in our yard with classical conditioning exercises (games) not “IYC” games? We like being outside, but you mentioned above that I shouldn’t do any games outdoors until she is unable to take her eyes off of me indoors? Then what CAN we do in the yard, just go out to potty & come back in? 🙁Agreed higher value food outdoor now instead of kibble 🙂
No, I haven’t done the leash off, engagement ON game, what is that?
Here is a session from last night of Super Bowls. I have raw in my pouch in a baggie so it didn’t come out fast enough. I’m not asking for a sit, it’s just that I took too long to put it in the bowl!
Thank you!!
