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Hi!
>I also didn’t mention that arousal may have been a teensy bit higher as I did this session soon after arriving home from being away at a trial for 3 days.>
It is entirely possible! The hormones/neurobiology can last for days to weeks, so she might still have a little extra giddy up left from the weekend! But I agree that she was probably not over the top/overaroused… just processing a hard skill with a valuable reward and a teenage brain that doesn’t always support good calm decision making 🙂
And it is also possible that all of our discussion/planning will be moot because latent learning might just take over, and she will know it beautifully next time LOL!!!
Keep me posted!
Tracy
Good morning!
Yikes, it does sound like the session was a wild ride!!
> I struggled with where to put the toy. Far enough along the line for her to land and safely take a stride
Yes, generally that is the right spot and you can also think of it as putting it where the next jump would be on a traditional serpentine line.
> then pick it up it was way too visible past the jump and she just ran past it to the toy.>
Wheeeeee! In that situation, you can angle the serp jump so the toy is on the right line, your line of motion is on the serp line as if the jump were still ‘flat’ – but the jump bar is angled towards her so it is a lot easier to go over and harder to go past. It can even be angled as much as 90 degrees to get started.
> Two of the reps where she DID take the jump this way, one of them she totally wiped out sideways picking up the toy as she was so off balance trying to make the lead change happen, and the other one she smashed into the wing and actually broke off two of the jump cups (they’re old, brittle Max 200 jumps that need the strips replaced any way, but still, *2* jump cups). >
Lordy! She was trying to go fast and get the mechanics and it didn’t work out at all. A couple of ideas, in no particular order:
It is possible that using a larger toy like a giant hollee roller will help, because then she won’t have to lower her head as much to scoop it up. Lowering her head is probably pulling her weight forward, making the weight shift/lead changes harder.
>Question is, should I take some of the arousal out and just use a manners minder instead of the toy? Or will she have to learn it all over again once the arousal is added back in any way? That whole “state dependent learning”. >
I think you have arrived in the fine balance of yes-state-dependent-learning and yes-adolescence-OMG. In adolescence, the cognitive control of not smashing into jumps/arousal regulation is just not developed, and the “go fast towards something” is actually over-developed due to adolescent brain changes.
Evolutionarily, it makes sense for the brain to do this… but jeeeeez it makes training adolescent dogs harder!
So we walk a tightrope in adolescence, always balancing arousal and ‘please don’t break yourself in half’ while teaching stuff or running sequences. So in this case – to maintain the arousal we want/need to really get the behavior where we want it, you can walk the tightrope by playing a little tug before each rep, then putting the toy in your pocket and the MM is the reward target on the ground. That might get you into the “just right” level of arousal to optimize learning without going into overarousal, while helped protect her from hitting things while she learns the mechanics.
For kicks, since you are a medical professional 🙂 I pulled out the ‘this is what is happening in adolescent brains’ slides from a recent webinar. If you feel like there is a LOT going on in her brain right now… you are indeed correct LOL
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/14WMhayN4HCeCWoDd4Dh9yKVjRk7mJrDolZMxCSiuo5o/edit?usp=sharing
I read this list over a LOT as a reminder because I have 4 adolescent dogs in the house (and a lot of chocolate to help me survive the insanity LOL!). I spend a lot of time trying to balance their training sessions to work in arousal without them also splatting themselves as they drive into the ‘work’.
>I feel like this is a behavior that similar to running contacts where the skill needed from the dog is completely different depending on the arousal.>
Yes, which is why we want to put arousal into the RDW training as early as possible… but we also do it on a mat on the ground or a low board as they learn mechanics. I use the ‘tug before, MM reward’ as the height of the DW or AF increases, so there is arousal but the dog maintains good mechanics for safety reasons.
And a nice balance to it is working her in higher arousal with simpler skills, because the neural pathways for arousal regulation in work will also help when doing harder stuff like serps or running contacts – so we don’t need to have super high arousal for the skills that require a lot of mechanics, because we can teach her body how to function in super high arousal using simpler (safer) skills.
Let me know what you think!
Tracy
I will keep you posted! I might open it up for folks who are in MaxPup 3 and have the independent study class – I will know in the next few days based on the calendar for the summer 🙂
Tracy
Hi! This session went GREAT!! Looks like she was perfect with the Go, the left towards you, and the right turn RC. You were very clear with the verbals and connection, which really helped.
She was definitely reading the rear cross pressure too, and I bet you can start it even sooner so you don’t end up as far behind her. You can be a little ahead of her when she exits the tunnel, and be running to the center of the bar of the jump even before she passes you. She will fly by you and do the RC, and you will be closer to her to then cue the next line. That will help her stay out to get the next wing after the jump too! (If she goes to the backside of the jump, it just means you were too early on the RC line and pushed across the jump before she had a chance to get past you :))
Great job here and with all the games – she is looking fantastic! See you in MaxPup 3!!!
Tracy
Good morning!
Hooray for no banana!!! He did great 🙂 You can add more independence by gradually moving further and further away from the line while maintaining the parallel path to the backside.
>Thank you SO much for all your help in this class! I feel like he (and our working relationship) has improved so so much from that first session with so much frustration! And he has some cool new agility skills!>
I agree – you really embraced the play and arousal, leading to incredible leaps forward in teamwork. And he is so much better at regulating arousal – this is easy when things are going well, but he was able to do it even after mistakes and he kept trying without get frustrated. What a good boy!! In MP 3 we will be able to really ramp up his sequence work – it will be so fun!!!
Great job here!
TracyHooray for doing so well at the seminar! Fun!!!!!
I won’t open the full teeter class for feedback but I might do it a an add-on to the MaPup 3 class – that way people can post videos there for feedback too. Let me know if that might be of interest!Tracy
Good morning!
He did well here – the 6 foot spacing for the first gap worked well and he was able to sort out the 6 foot and 12 foot distances in gap 2. He did have trouble with the 9 foot distance – he couldn’t quite figure out how to bounce or how to add a stride. He wanted to bounce it, which is great – but didn’t quite have the mechanics yet. We want the bounce there because it will lead him into being able to 1 stride bigger distances.
Two ideas to help him out with extending that stride:Start him a few inches closer to jump 1, so he lands a little further from 1 and also from 2, which might give him one more notch of hind end power.
You can modify the grid to convince him to bounce by gradually moving the distance out while maintaining the bounce. You can start by using 7 feet in the 2nd gap and if he bounces, move it to 8 feet. And if he bounces, move it to 8.5 feet… and if he bounces, move it to 9 feet. If at any point he doesn’t bounce, move the distance back in a little to find the bounce. It might be a game of inches at first, but that is fine and will build a lot of confidence to extend the stride.
Separately, using the original accordion grid, you can raise the bar a bit when the 3rd jump is 12 feet or more away from the 2nd jump. Giving him more angle of elevation can also get more power. These look like they were 8 inches, so you can try 12” when the 3rd cup is 12 feet away or more.
Great job here!
Tracy
Good morning!
I am also tired of the rain, I feel like we live in a rain forest LOL!!!
>I tried with a rolled mat for the line and he did great off my right and got it first try but struggled off my left (which is also the side he struggled with the dw platform today – not sure if that’s related).>
It is definitely possible he is stronger on your right (turning to his left) than he is on your left (turning to his right). Dogs definitely have a side preference just like we humans.
And you can be clearer with the cues – the mat was there as a guide but you can support the line for a few more steps (have the rolled up mat going straight at least halfway to the jump).
When you moved parallel to his path for the exit of the cone to the entry of the backside? He got it! When you moved along what I call a banana line (a curved line away from the parallel path and towards the exit wing) – he took the front every time.
I got screen shots so you can see the difference between the banana line and the parallel path:
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1zbobx3bsGxRnyG8Obfz2CwbPraV9y28ml-z1WHRQJyI/edit?usp=sharing
So definitely take a few more steps forward on the parallel path, plus he also did well when you had a little lower arm and more connection (like on the last rep in particular).
>He also seems to hamster wheel a little when he’s wrong. Like he does it wrong once and then just keeps doing it wrong until I make a dramatic change.>
Another way to look at it… he continues to read the cues correctly rather than guess something else, until you clarify the cue 🙂 That is what happened here – he read the banana line cue as the cue to come to the front each time (that will be helpful when we want threadles!). And he read the parallel path correctly each time (to the backside). So I think he is keeping us honest about the clarity of cues LOL!!
Great job her!
Tracy
Good morning! This went really well!
You were able to exit a lot of handling moves and he is reading them really well!! And your connection is looking strong for most of it, which really helps support his line.
Two ideas for you, as the sequences get more and more complex:
One thing to add is having the verbals come sooner for the tunnel exits – try to have all of the verbals happen before he enters the tunnel so he knows to do when he exits. That will tighten up the turns and all prevent off courses when he has not been told what to do:
For example at :28 he entered the tunnel and saw you accelerating, so he went straight on the exit. You were quiet and not connected on the exit, so he stayed on his line – that is correct.
At 1:51 you gave your ‘right’ verbal before he entered the tunnel and he had a great turn on the exit!
Another thing to add is *not* stopping to fix anything that goes wrong – you have reached the stage of handling where things are complex and the dogs are relying on our handling for all the info… and when we humans are wrong, they are still correct. Stopping to fix something can be frustrating to the dogs because they read us correctly and are wondering why they are being told they were wrong (by stopping).
Going back to the run at :28 when he went straight after the tunnel – when you stopped to fix it, he got mad (jumped on you) and then there were several failures in a row
You will see that any blooper on the video here was handler induced for example:
:47 you said out but turned away and that pulled him off the line you wanted (he was correct there too) and he jumped up on you when you stopped. Compare to 1:20 where you took a few more steps along the line and he got it easily.
At 2:05 your upper body was pulling him in but your motion was pushing him out to the wing, so since there was a conflicting indicator he went with motion (which is correct to do when there is confusion)
So, don’t stop and fix anything – keep going to the next obstacle and then reward. Then you can stop and figure out how to be clearer with the cues and get it in flow… and he won’t be mad or frustrated 🙂
A good example of continuing was at 1:10 where you said out and stepped into his line, which sent him off course to what sounds like a tunnel not visible on the video. You chuckled and kept going, and he did not get frustrated at all! That was perfect.
Nice work here! Enjoy June and see you soon!
TracyGood morning!
No Es on a weekend of Ashley Deacon courses? That’s impressive! Congrats!!!!!!
The backside work on the video looks really great. I think you had the perfect arm position and connection – he went directly to the backside and didn’t look at you for more info. Yay!! And you were able to get pretty far from the entry wing too!
To solidify his understanding of taking the jump after arriving at the backside and get more countermotion, I think the best plan is to always throw the toy and not deliver it from your hand. He’s watching your hands, so we can shift where he looks by using an exaggerated and early toy throw:
As he gets to the entry wing, throw the toy far past the jump and a little closer to the entry wing (nowhere near you 😀 ) Throwing it far and not close to you will get him to turn to the bar and jump it a little long, so he doesn’t hit the bar or wing. He will still have a tight turn and line when we aren’t Throwing the toy, but this placement will really emphasize looking for the bar and not at you 😀Nice work here!!
TracyI have total faith that you’ll use the right verbals, thanks to brainwashing yourself by doing running walk throughs 🙂
T
Good morning!
I think this sessions falls into the ‘on the right track’ category. Yes, there is definite processing and some “is it this answer” rather than the verbals being fluent yet. But she had a high rate of success with a bit of failure mixed in, and that builds the skill in the right direction. This is a game to revisit and you will see her get exponentially better and better – plus, as the soft turn verbals going into course work, you will see her have those “aha!” moments of responding to them in context.I really only have one suggestion for the next session:
You can add a light collar or harness so it is easier to hold her. Hand-on-chest works in a lot of ways and different games for her, but in this game it was causing her to lean away/move away – and this game relies on the precision of lineup. And if she was having ‘the ick’ about being held, she was not really devoting as much bandwidth to verbal processing.
And since she was not as close to you, she was also looking away more (instead of at which line you wanted her to take) which made it harder. Both whippets and BCs will look away like she was doing when they have the ick about something, so I don’t know which breed to blame here hahahaha but I think it was more looking away because of the hold and not as much head swiveling to guess the direction.
You did move her into position and hold her slightly differently later in the session, but I am not sure she loved it as much as she tolerated it, and might have been thinking about it a bit much when we want thinking about verbals. So something as simple as a light collar can take all of her questions out about the starting position.
>Then there was the one naughty one where she went to chase my other dog (not the old black dog she’s a bit afraid of, but the one that is her best bud) who left the bed he was supposed to be waiting on to be closer to the action.>
The “no ma’am” moment was hilarious and I love how she came back like “I TOTALLY ROCKED THAT” LOL!!
Great job here!
Tracy
Good morning! I am glad you had fun at the Classic – Ashley Deacon can be counted on for fun courses!
>Got back to the baby level backside slice. Started with the exit.>
I think that went well overall – he thinks the countermotion is hard 🙂 and wants to look at you. The toy throws helped here at the beginning and also the toy throws helped when you were rewarding throughout the video… but he still was not lokoing at the bar without the toy throw. So for the next session, add a placed reward on the landing side, even if it is an empty food bowl to drop treats into so he looks at you less when we want him looking for the bar. That will add some challenge getting to the backside, but that is fine 🙂
> Tried to get further across the bar than yesterday which was hard for him. Ended up practically at the wing to help him, then gradually moved back closer to the middle and tried a little bit of moving toward the exit. >
I think two things were happening that caused him to question if it was the front or back (he was looking at you to figure it out):
– he is going faster, so I think you can go faster too. The motion will help support the line to the backside better. If you stay a little closer to the start wing til he is just about exiting, then jog/slow run up the line, he will feel more support from the motion.
– more importantly, I think you were connecting so much (which is good) that your dog-side arm was waaaayyyyyy back… so it looked like a threadle arm and was pulling him in to the front. You can see him checking in with you: “Are you sure, human?” LOL!
You can keep the connection but relax the arm a bit so you don’t have it back as far and there is less rotation at the waist, and then it won’t look like a threadle arm. To help stay connected without pulling the arm too far back, you can point your fingers to his nose which will prevent the arm from pulling way back. I use the outside arm here especially in the learning stages to get the connection/shoulder position without accidentally threadling.
For example. you can see how far back your dog-side arm is at :48, so he comes in to the front.
Compare to 1:10 where you relaxed it forward a bit so your fingers track with his nose and that totally helped him find the backside line – it was the ‘just right’ combo of connection and arm cue and motion.
Nice work here! See you very soon!!!!
Tracy
Good morning!
I don’t think his brain was broken LOL!! He just doesn’t know the verbal that independently yet, and the physical cue needs to match it for now. He was being a good boy!
> I tried to parallel his line and really push him to the back and he could (only) get it when I did that,>
Yes – the best instance of that was at :04, where you only nedeed a couple of steps up the parallel line to get him on the line ot the backside. That was the exact line, and you had really good connection too as he was exiting the cone – and then we keep moving you over further and further, so you don’t need to be as close to the entry wing.
So for now, keep the parallel line going to where the wing and the bar meet on the entry side. Then when he can do that, you can move over and try to get the parallel line to th center of the bar – then eventually it becomes a parallel line to where the wing and bar meet on the exit side. That will feel really independent!
On the reps where he took the front, he had to choose the verbal versus the body cue which was turned to the front, so as with most young dogs, he went with the physical cue.
>but in reality I know I will likely not always (mostly never) be there to do that so I’d like it to be a little more independent so I don’t have to be there to shape his line.>
When he was on your right like at :04, you didn’t really have to shape the line and, by moving your line over bit by bit, it will be easier to get the backside. I agree that when he was on your left at :20, :24, :28 you had to step into his line a bit more but I think that was because as he was exiting the cone, you were turning away (running in a curve) rather than moving parallel to his line, so then you had to step back to the line.
When I was accidentally curving instead of moving parallel, I would put a leash on the ground to remind me to run parallel to the path I wanted, and that made a big difference! With a line on the ground, you can move forward on the parallel line, and use your arm pointing to him and not ahead of him – both of those will help him stay out for the backside more independently too.
Nice work here!
Tracy
Hi!
She did great here with the layering! She has to take a lot more strides to get out on the line than a bigger dog, making it a harder skill.
>success seemed to depend on where wing no.1>
Ye – and also how much momentum she has heading to the wing.
At :24, she took the tunnel instead of the jump, and that is a spot where I think there needs to be more momentum and acceleration into the wing wrap. So you can start her further away and really run into it so she is running in extension a she gets to the wing.Also it will help to use obstacle names now, instead of “go”. The reason for this is because “go” often applies to the tunnel as well, so the ‘go’ verbal might lock her onto the tunnel. This is a good opportunity to work the difference between the tunnel and jump verbals, which can really help her with layering too.
Good job rewarding all the stays!! I think she is a little unsure of the release – she might think it relates to when you re-connect with her. So be sure to lead out, connect, take a breath… then release her separately from the re-connection or any arm movement.
The stay made the FC to the tunnel very easy, and she had a nice layering rep at the end too!
Great job!
Tracy
