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Hi!
Nice session here! He was finding most of the entries consistently, and with motion from you, and the poles were more angled. Yay!
2 ideas for you:
– he wants to look back at you when he is “done” which is just after he enters the poles. So, try to throw as soon as his head ducks into the poles (and forgive yourself if you sometimes throw too soon LOL!) You were getting earlier and earlier as this session went on, and that is great! The other thing you can do is move your reward target another 10 feet further away, so you have more time to get the reward in – he is definitely driving to it so having it further away will help keep his head straight for longer 🙂– he had not trouble with the entries except for the entry that was at about 2:30 (3 o’clock was good, it was the slightly ‘softer’ entry there that was harder for some reason). So, you can isolate that entry with a clicker session, starting pretty close to the poles with them at 2 and 8 for a few reps: start close (close enough that it is easier to get the entry and harder to curl in to the other side of it) on the 2:30 angle and send him – when he gets to the correct side, click and toss the treat between the poles. Then after a couple of reps, when he is confidently moving to the correct side, delay the click til he gets into the poles. Then tighten the poles to 1 and 7, and repeat the process. Then add distance! That will help that entry gets as solid as the others.
Separately, you can tighten the poles not to 12 and 6 so they are straight, and work all of the strong entries (for now, avoid those hard entries until you have had a chance to clicker them on the angled poles :)) You can work the straight poles and then the harder entries will catch up 🙂
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>>When adding the threadle entries, Hero kept trying to do “middle”, our start position for agility. I had to keep closing my legs or else I ended up with a ginger weirdo between them>
I noticed that! HA! You can use a line up cookie to have him come to your side instead of trying to add the middle LOL!
>>I tried to run straight with each rep (not my forte!).>>
The line up cookies will help this too, because you won’t be in motion before the send – that way you can give the send cue to start him and then just leave for the line without stepping to the poles at all. Overall, I thought your running lines were fine so you can add challenge of taking out your motion between the reward at the MM and the send to the entry: call him back and line him up, then send him without movement towards the poles.
This should help the threadles too, because he will figure out to NOT try to read your motion but to just go find the poles no matter what crazy thing you do 🙂 He did really well with the threadle entries, he just had a few questions on maintaining the path to the entry when you rear crossed behind him. More experience will help him sort that out.
>>When practicing extreme entries from 7-5 Hero kept adding in the number on the ground as something to pivot round before doing the weave poles. Is this just my body language making him do that? Or does he think it must be more complicated than just doing the poles?>>
I think that was all of the speed and motion happening sometimes after he got the MM cookie and as you got him near you to send back. Wheeeee! So line him up nice and tight to you so he does not add the number cones as obstacles LOL! We don’t want it here because it dilutes the difficulty of the angle of entry as he is shaping his line wider around them. If he keeps doing it, you can move them out of the picture so he can’t do it (it is not like he needs to see them LOL!)
Because he did so well here, you can tighten the poles to 1 and 7, and then get them straight, with all the entries and motion 🙂
>>I didn’t get to viewing the poles next to the tunnel yet, so maybe since we are not actually weaving yet, we can have another session tomorrow and look at that. But if he is using numbers as pivots, weaves near a tunnel will be interesting!>>
Yes, this stage of the progression is not hard on their bodies, so you can totally do this tomorrow if you want. It might be difficult because of the value of the tunnel! Or not, it might be easy peasy for him. It addresses a really common weave entry discrimination that I am sure you will see on course at the higher levels 🙂
Have fun! Great job here!
TracyHi!
Bummer about the snow, I hope it melts immediately! We have obstacles to train!I think he did well here! Yes, the 4 o’clock entry was hard but that goes into the recording keeping for you to revisit here on the pseudo-channels and also on the 2x2s. Everything else was strong – sends, adding motion, finding it from the tunnel, etc. Yay!
So next session – that would be a good time add in more of the difficult angles on both sides, mixed in with easy & fast straight-on reps too. Yes, you can go to the ball here but I think the timing of the marker would be the same (left shoulder @ pole 3). I don’t think he will pop out if you throw earlier, but I want to be sure by waiting for the ‘bend’ that means he is holding onto the entry.
Great job here! He is moving ahead really nicely!
TracyHi there!
I think the most important thing will be to sort out the reinforcement system and then use that to establish the reward line. He was not really grooving to the toy and trying to use the toy to set the reward line made it hard on the threadle entries.I know your Manners Minder was misbehaving, but you might want to wake it up because I think it is going to end up being the most useful. And if the treats in it are not enticing, you can increase the value by mixing in stinky stuff (at the moment, my MM has dried tripe mixed into it because Hot Sauce is in season and I need something REALLY interested for Contraband!). The smell ‘flavors’ the kibble 🙂
The visual of the MM is what really helps and the ease of reward placement. You can also use a giant bowl and meatballs to toss into it or make the toy land there every time 🙂
Looking at the videos:
On the first video, I agree, he had questions about the reward line. A warm up couple of reps of non-threadle sends can help set up the line. Having the MM out there as an active reinforcement target will also help – the toy throws were really good on the first half of the video but then later on, they shifted over and the line changed so it was a little less clear.2nd video – I think he was starting to figure out where the reward line was, but also told us about some questions on the entry on the 1-2-3-4-5 side of the clock. You can stay just close enough to the poles that it is easier to find the entry than it is to go past it, and you can alternate ‘normal’ sends with the threadle side sends – that can keep the rate of success high and the entries clear.
When you were on the 1-2-3-4-5 side, he had trouble with the normal sends too, so it might either be that that is a harder side in general, or he was unclear about which way the poles were going (which is why the super clear reward target will help provide the visual for now). And then I think he was getting a bit ‘under-aroused’ when he was getting it wrong, so keeping the session short was smart as you sort out the reinforcement structure.When you moved to the channels – he looked hot or not interested in the toy or both here, but better to stop and sort out reinforcement.
So – on the next session, try the MM or bowl with suuuper high value food reinforcement (perhaps use his breakfast or something equally exciting, if he likes meals :)) and use that to establish the reward line. You can also use line up cookies (if you are not already doing so) so the pingpong of rewards for the weaves, rewards for the line ups to send to the weaves for more rewards will get him really excited about the whole thing!
Let me know if that makes sense! You don’t need to isolate the threadle side entries and do an entire session of those at this point – we can slide them into other sessions after that reward line is established 🙂
TracyHi!
This looked great! I know you didn’t intend for the poles to be straight, but he was nailing the entries from all around the clock, with sends and motion from you. I think he had one error – from almost 6 o’clock on your left, but then you reset him with a line up cookie, and he found the entry. Great job working a wide variety of challenges (I think I even saw a rear cross in there!).
So since he did so well, on the various sends and motion around the clock: you can get him more excited, maybe tugging before and after each rep or getting him wilder with a bit of chatter like “ready, steady, wheee!” to challenge him to still find all of those angles with the poles straight.
And if he can, it is setting you up beautifully for the games that are coming up.For the threadle side entries – you might want to have the poles a little angled at 1 and 7 perhaps to get the threadle side started. And if it is too easy, you can close them back up. Too hard? Angle them more open 🙂
The other thing I suggest is taking the 2 poles and doing a bit of couple of sessions with a tunnel right there. If you don’t have easy access to a tunnel, put a jump or wing where the tunnel would be. That will introduce the discrimination that is so popular nowadays 🙂
Great job here!!
TracyHi! The length here is fine, we needed to see the entire session not just the entries.
Speaking of entries – these are going well! You can add in a little motion to it now to see if he can still get the entries while you are walking up the line.
>> but I think I’ve created an MM obsession 😳 He does this same thing with our RDW training… stands there and stares at it like he can will it to spit out more food!>>
Perhaps a little obsessed LOL! This is pretty normal, actually, so a couple of things to suggest:
first, the line up cookie to come back to you can be higher value than whatever is in the MM. I use string cheese for the line up cookie and kibble in the MM – and my food driven dogs still think the MM is better LOL! So it is down the poles to the MM, then I call the dog back (my cue for Hot Sauce to come line up is “ice cream!”) and then she gets a bite of the cheese during the line up – then back down the poles, and so on.I have also done a lot of shaping using the MM where the dog has to leave the MM to do something in order to get the MM to dispense the goodies.
>> In hindsight I think I created this by multiple “clicks” for jackpots… does that make sense? I think he’s not sure if there might not be just one more if he waits? >>
Yes, this totally makes sense – from his perspective, it might be a ‘you get what you click’ behavior: one click is for the poles, theoretically… but then when we think ‘jackpot’ and click several more times, he is getting several clicks for standing there staring at it. So the ratio of clicks-for-poles to clicks-for-staring is skewed in favor of clicks-for-staring. So… he offers more staring at it, of course 🙂
The line up cookie will totally help fix that ratio, and no more clicks for jackpots (I sometimes go dump in more cookies from my hand for a fabulous moment but I don’t do multiple clicks).Let me know if that makes sense! Have a safe trip to Florida, see ya when you get back!!
Tracy
Hi! Two ways you can deepen his understanding:
You can change your position he is between you and the cone or stanchion but it very easy for him to turn away. For example, the cone is on his left, he is on your left, so the line goes:
Cone – Robbie – you. Then you cue a left wrap. You can start with an easier angle if needed but at this stage the cone or stanchion should be the stimulus.
Also, you can use a hand cue – and then fade it. Say the word, then do the cue (after the verbal) and the hand cue just keeps getting smaller and smaller and smaller til it is eventually gone 🙂
When he understands how to turn away from you on he verbal, you can play with lacing him center of the cone or wing so he can see both sides and then work the verbal – I suggest starting with tiny hand signals to help first there, then fade them out too 🙂Tracy
Hi! Great job here!
Yes, I hear you are getting hit pretty hard with a blizzard, I hope the snow is only there for a minute and then melts 🙂 I am so tired of winter!
The sending is going well! She has great commitment to the barrels. When you have more room, lead out more laterally so she is challenged with more distance on the sends. You were leaving really nicely and her commitment was great, so more distance on the lead out will add challenge for both of you: you can send from further away and leave sooner, and she will have to maintain commitment as you leave.
You can also play this game on a wing rather than the barrels, to transfer the concept to the wing which will eventually become jumps.The sits are going well too – I don’t know why she couldn’t get herself into the sit on the 2nd rep, maybe just a little distraction? We saw that same little distraction t 2:26, even with a cookie right there and then again at the end of the video. So there is something there catching her eye – you can use that as an opportunity to do some tricks in front of distractions! She did give you a lot of nice stays an great job with all of the rewards (catch and pizza!).
Nice work here! Let me know what you think.
TracyHi!
>Quite possibly the funniest video I have done thus far.
Thank you for the heads up, I made sure to pee before watching so I would not gave an accident from laughing LOL!
Flying Squirrel for the win! And the fast forward chipmunk voice was great lol Still laughing!
I don’t mind the victory laps at all – it allows him to blow off some steam (there is pressure in teeter training!) and we want the whole thing to be associated with a big party! And it was – you were being a nut, and so was he. Wheeee!!! Definitely bring that squirrel out for the teeter training in other places too!
You can add a 2nd flying squirrel in to help bring him back sooner 🙂 You might notice I had 2 frizzers with CB in the demos just to convince him to come back within the hour haha!
So… gradually oh so gradually add tip, so he barely notices because he is too busy obsessing on the squirrel. New games are added today, and the uphill and downhill are all about adding tip 🙂
Great job here!
TracyHi!
>>It’s so interesting to train both of these methods at the same time and see how they create different questions for the dogs!>>
I agree – it is the first time I have deliberately trained them both at the same time… things are moving very quickly here! I am about 10 days ahead of the class in terms of filming demos… and Contraband weaved 4 straight poles today (his first shaping of poles is in the first demo video). The 2 methods cover a lot of bases and the understanding transfers: I believe it is the channel games that made adding poles 3 and 4 in the 2x2s very easy! Elektra is not on 4 straight because she literally only turned a year old yesterday, so I am going more slowly with her. I am excited to see Presto sort through this all too!
Great job on the video here. He was really sorting out that hard entry – note how he had to slow himself down to get it at one point, then he was almost perfect (and fast) after that! You can be closer to the poles on that particular entry, so he it is easier to get the entry and he has less room to curl in and grab the gap between the poles. And nice job adding balance with the other things like straight entries, left side sends, and I think I saw a threadle in there too! And adding the MM at the end was perfect.
When you do the hard entry on the channels, start really close – those other poles are very distracting 🙂 And you can click the entry and drop a treat right in the middle of the channels to really mark the moment.
Great job here!
TracyYay! I love the training side of things, so I love being able to problem solve this stuff!
>> She has just been rocking her agility training and then bam I was like I ruined my puppy>>
Not a all! You are both still rocking it.
>>Of course we have a snow storm moving in as I typed but they said it will be gone in a day or so and we will get out there and take another crack at it with actual weaves.>>
NOOOOOOO to the snow! Bleh!! Tell it to go away. Someday I will win the lottery and build a big complex so all of my northern friends can spent their winters here. I was whining today that it was only 55 and I was cold LOL!!!!
T
>> I wasn’t able to adjust those channels at Mark’s place, as you need a special key to adjust them.>>
Darn it, he should leave the key!
>>She definitely prefers the toy over the MM – do you think I should continue throwing the toy for her, like I did in that last session?>>
I think it will depend on if she can be excited AND thoughtful! So you can *probably* use the toy for all the things as long as she does not look back at you. I use the frisbee with Contraband but I do have the MM sitting out there as a target for him to move towards (although I don’t know if he is actually using it as a target, but it makes me feel better haha!)
T
Hi there!
>>Sorry, I thought I cropped it under 3 min. Please cut off either first or last 13 seconds.>>
No worries! There is an “ish” attached to all of my time suggestions – 3 minutes, ish. I just want to help people keep their sessions short and NOT submit 30 minute videos LOL!! So don’t drive yourself crazy about too much editing 🙂
>> We are going to try to work through this from the beginning to plugs holes and get from rudimentary to fabulous>>
Perfect! I have gone back to the very beginning with Hot Sauce now that she is “fixed” (I hope). Her weaves were rudimentary a year ago when we stopped training to deal with the leg… and now she looking fabulous! I have changed the progressions in the past year so I think we are going to better find and fill any holes on the road to fabulous 🙂
On the video:
Great job on this session, all of the right side send angles looked great!
The initial left side angles looked great too!
When she starting to find the “correct” entry when you were at 9 o’clock (if the poles were straight and heading towards the yellow jump and not towards the MM) at about 2:26 – that is actually pretty common with dogs that already have some weave understanding. For example: Hot Sauce did that and Contraband & Elektra (who had zero previous experience) did not consider that. I think it is partially an artifact from their previous weave experience and partially a bit of cheating 🙂So in that moment, you did the right thing by just rewarding and moving to a slightly more obvious angle to keep emphasizing the reward line. It is not a question we need to ask her right now because we are going to angle the poles immediately 🙂 I don’t think she needs another session with the poles at 3 and 9 – value is there and she was great here, so you can angle them to 2 and 8 (which should take care of the entry question when you are at the 9 o clock position). And you can mix in the motion too, she is ready for that. And if that session goes well, you can move to the 1 and 7 angle really quickly for sends and motion. I think 2 and 8 will be super easy for her, so 1 and 7 will provide more challenges.
Great job here! I look forward to seeing more!
TracyHi!
He did really well here!
You can toss the treat a little sooner – when you see intent to enter, just before he gets to the poles, so he doesn’t look back at you. I know that I talked about waiting to reward until you saw right shoulder at pole 2, but that was for the Manners Minder as the reward target because the dogs will keep going straight. When we are throwing the rewards, we can throw a little sooner so that the reward is in motion and landing before the dog looks back at us.He had no trouble with the 2 & 8 angle, and then had no trouble with the 1 and 7 angle. Yay! I thought he was looking ahead better on those last few reps at 1 and 7 from the harder angles, mainly because you wer tossing the treat earlier 🙂 You had your arm moving back before he was entering and your throw happened just as he entered – so it was landing before he looked back at you. Perfect!
Your line of motion was generally good – I was just being sure that no one would use motion to help the dog find the entry 🙂 and you were not, you were very good about sending and leaving.
So the next steps are three-fold:
Get him a little more pumped up between each rep, you can line him up next to you and give him a little happy talk (ready, ready), then send him with a bit of an interim verbal cue or noise.
And I think he will be fine if you added more motion too – a bit of running!
And, keep angling the poles tighter – maybe a session at 12:30 and 6:30 and then if he is happy with that – let’s get them straight for 12 and 6.Great job here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
