Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Hi –
>> Should I try marking the back feet moving too? You had me stop that, well switch to saying ‘get it’, but that isn’t a marker for telling her she is doing the right thing and I sort of feel that is something that is missing now since there doesn’s seem to be much telling her what is right as the tossed treat seems more of a lure than a reward.>>
Actually, the get it is both a marker for “that was correct, reinforcement is available” and an indicator of where to look for it (on the ground and not in your hand). The first treat between your feet is a lure to come forward, but the second one with the get it is a very fast reward for the first weight shift back. If you click or wait longer, she is going to look at you or turn around.
>>That is going to be tough, she really doesn’t have much space between her front legs yet being not quite 19 weeks yet but we will try.
That is why training is a mechanical skill 🙂
>>>I can use our hallway for this.
Too much room to run in a hallway. Use your smallest bathroom.
>>– Ttwo toys that are long enough to tug on?
Yes
>>– Toys about the same value?
Yes, but they don’t need to be identical.
>>– Hpw much distance do you think I should give her to get the toy and come back? I didn’t give her much and I am thinking that may have been wrong?
6 inches lol
>>– if she doesn’t bring it towards me at all what then? Go in and play tug with the one she has?
She does not need to bring it toward you at all at first – in fact she probably won’t at first – she just needs to either not move it away at all, or not move it way much (if that is the best starting point)
>> If she doesn’t pick up the toy just redo? no playing with either tug for that one?
Yes, still play – engage her with the one she didn’t pick up. If she says it has no value, then switch to a different toy.
Wobble board:
>>I don’t see any signs of over-stimulation. Great! Just playing with a toy on a floor that happens to move a little.<< >> That is pretty much what happened with Rayven and it took over a year to fix trying many different things and then finally using Amy Cook’s play way information which just got her super comfortable with minimal arousal being involved at each stage until she was comfortable.>>
I think Rayven was an unusual case in terms of arousal and environmental sensitivity, wouldn’t you agree? Unless Beka is a really close relative or a genetic repeat, I don’t think you need to worry as much. The playing here was just about playing which is a great way to introduce different surfaces – it is basically a pattern game using a toy. Otherwise, we risk creating issues where none exist. Moving too quickly by adding more tip when she is concerned can cause an issue, but this toy game simply used a higher value reinforcement that food to introduce a new concept into a pattern. When food comes up in value, I think you will be able to use it in more places but for now – the toys make this type of exploration a lot more worthwhile for her.
T
Hi!
Ah, bummer about the camera, I hate when that happens!!!On this video: awww he is soooo cute!!! Drive to you is perfect of course so one suggestion: lower your cookie hand so he does not need to lift his chin to eat. That will either mean you have to bend over more, or you can use a long wooden spoon with a big of cream cheese on the end to be a hand-extension 🙂
You can definitely add more distance here and you can add in your motion as well as the pivots (not sure if that was part of what got lost when the camera misbehaved :))
Backing up – he is really starting to get this!! He is a bit frustrated, though, so I think we can clarify it for him a bit and make it easier:
toss the reinforcement between his front feet rather than hand it to him. Handing it to him stops him and brings him back towards you, rather than promoting moving further back.
You being on the floor and feeding him close is encouraging the down a bit, so you can add in sitting in a chair – you being higher will help him not want to down. And you can use the chair to start him under you and then he will back out (check out Kirstie and Lori doing this with their pups too :))
The other option is to have him back up to a destination – start all four feet on a dog bed, for example, then lure his front feet off – and reward him for stepping back onto the bed. Then we can work up to all four feet off and he steps backwards onto the bed. That might be very easy and clear for him!
If he gets frustrated and barks, try not to say ‘nope’ or ‘do something else’ as those both are markers for being wrong. That will frustrate him more. Instead, make it easier and reward faster, or change position so it is easier for him to offer the behavior.Great job here!!! Can’t wait to see more 🙂
TracyHi!
>>Oh I like this and I think Sly will too….eat from the MM and throw the Hollee Roller! He’ll think that is a blast!
And other times you don’t even need to loop the food in, you can just have the HR there for him to take 🙂
>> while I’m figuring out the foot placement of what I just saw and whether or not it’s “jackpot worthy” and if it is I’ve been running in and adding better treats to the MM, but I think I’ll try throwing the Hollee Roller. >>
I spend a lot of quality time staring at the mat to see if feet hit it 🙂 It becomes almost slow motion after a while.
>>Me running in and adding treats is creating him standing there for a bit waiting to see if more are coming. I’ve been sorting through a cue to let him know that it’s “all done” and that helps but I think throwing the ball will help with that and he likes it so much…. Also I can probably play with ball/more food depending on what his arousal level is, right?>>
Yes – the HR can be used as part of the reset between the MM and the next rep. One of the games posted today address that – the Shhhhh procedure work. So for Hot Sauce, she would do the mat, get the cookie from the MM, I would say shhhhhhh and she would run back o the cookie in my hand and follow my hand to the reset position, eat the cookie, then back to running through the mat. With the toy, I would either use shhhhhhh if it was a tug, or ‘bite’ if it was a frisbee to get the reset.
The video was really interesting, I think there were a lot of things happening here!
Definitely use more of your marker (yours) and less of the ‘yes!’ and verbal excitement – the excitement was sometimes before the markeror the marker got lost in it. Be pretty chill with the verbals in the shaping here, like youwere when you were practicing the yours and mine at about 4:12 and after.
Speaking of being chill 🙂 I think the body language in the beginning with the toys was very ‘ready set GO!’ and not the relaxed body language we use in shaping. He definitely reads that as a cue… to sit! Ha! Particularly o your left side, he has a conditioned response to offer a sit stay (not so much on your right side, which also tells us that you probably line him up on your left a lot). This is probably a by-product of his experience running courses and toys as the reinforcement: “we start with a stay and run a sequence”.
That was totally different with food- food plus your posture being more relaxed were a cue to offer behavior, and that is one of the earliest things he learned – and he probably did a lot of food shaping as a baby as you built up toy drive separately, so food is strongly associated with shaping.
So with that in mind, you can do more shaping with toys only – using a wing, be closer to the wing and more relaxed, maybe even down sitting. And you can shape any other behavior with a toy – get on random things, go around things, etc, to both get the reinforcement procedure more firmly established and also to get him used to offering behavior in the presence of toys.
Great job here! Really fun session to watch!
TracyHi! Lots of good stuff here!
Prop game/sends:
The value looks good! You might need to put the prop on something so it doesn’t move when he hits it 🙂>>Leo gets very worked up during this game, and while he can still think and goes to the prop and purposely targets it (yay), he gets very bitey on my hands while I’m engaging him and before I send him (owwww), and he vocalizes out of frustration a couple times too.>>
I jotted notes on this before I came back and read your post! Yes, I noticed that he seemed to think that waiting for the cue (handler focus) was silly when he could have been out there doing the thing!!!!!! So, we can help him learn to be patient and stay in handler focus, without frustration and without self-sending 🙂
Away from the prop game, bend your knees, ask if he is ready… and when he does nothing other than be relatively still, give him a treat. Basically, we are reinforcing stillness even when he is excited 🙂 And when he can do that with treats, we can switch to a toy which is definitely more exciting for him here!
And then it builds up to you being able to get him really jazzed up and he will still be patient, without any tooth hugs or cursing LOL!With the prop – have your ready dance be less of a party, and more of a calm question: ready? Then a cookie for stillness… then send to the prop. So he will start to learn that stillness and engagement in that context will get the game happening, not cursing and tooth hugs 🙂 And we can ramp it up over time, so eventually it can be a full-on ready dance festival.
The send to the prop with the food looked great! The toy changes things because he wants to watch the toy and hit the prop. So two ideas for you:
he is really strong with the food reinforcement, so add in the toy just tucked under your armpit but everything remains the same with food as the reinforcement. That can add in a little bit of the toy arousal, but it will be less in his face (and not really moving) so he watches it less. Eventually, we can add it in to the gam but when you do that, start by shaping it with the toy, from up close – so he learns to look away from the toy, in order to get the toy 🙂On the 2nd video, Drive to handler – easiest thing ever for him 🙂 With the cookies, have your hand touching your leg so he is really tight to you, like you did with the first rep of the pivots – so nice! The pivots with the cookies all looked really strong, he is really bending into the turns! Your cookie hand wanted to move away from your leg, so keep reminding the cookie hand to stay super tight to your leg.
He was naturally tighter to you with the toy on the straight decels, so I bet he will be naturally tight with the toy on the pivot too!
Great job with these! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi! Lots of great stuff here!
Driving ahead: Very nice driving to the dead toy! YAY!!!
>> I haven’t added my motion, but I think I could now, what do you think?
Yes, add in your motion first with walking and then see how it goes – if he is still fine, we can add more and more motion. And it will help him turn left too, based on your observation:
>> My other question comes because he is always turning to the right. Do you want me to hold off on doing more of this, or is there an adjustment you’d like me to make? Maybe it would not be an issue if im racing up to the toy?>>
On your left, he should be turning to his right… but on your right, he should be turning left. Now, he might be reading subtle turn cues when you step in behind him… or he might be a strong righty. We definitely want to encourage the left turn starting as soon as we can get it.
The easiest thing to do is see if adding your movement encourages the left turn, because you are moving and more visible: when he is on your right, be pretty close for now as you move so you are pretty much right near him to encourage him to turn towards you (left turn).
If that works? Cool! If not, and he still turns right – We take out the distance and you him up close to you on your right, so we basically just drop the toy and have him turn left to get to you. And also when he is on your right and you turn and run away: for now, take one or two steps off to the side so it is easy for him to turn to his left. Let me know if that makes sense.
Wrap foundation – the milk can is awesome! It took him a moment to stop thinking about the toy, but then he was great 🙂
Look how well he turns left here, he looks nicely balanced to his left and his right – he is zipping around the milk can in both directions really well, and with a toy! Perfect! We build on this more tomorrow 🙂Goat games:
>> I think he’s doing well going back to the toy after the food. It’s still not as high value as food, but I think it’s improving.>>He is looking great with this! It is NOT an easy thing with dogs but it is great that he is showing nice value for both! And you can keep using low value food (is there such a thing for Shelties) and then whip out the craziest high value toy in shaping sessions: that helps get him back onto the toy even in situations that are heavily associated with food. He took a moment to get on the toy here but you kept it moving and he especially seemed to love it at the end when you got silly with your voice!!!
He was a superstars with all of the moving objects here. You can have him use all a the same time, as a mini obstacle course 🙂 And you can move the wobble board to different surfaces, so it makes different noises when it moves.
Plankrobatics:
Great job keeping the toy moving! You can even throw it. He was right there next to all the things that mean food so he needed more engagement to get on the toy… and he did! Yay!
He was super confident on the plank here. When you have him turn in a circle, move your hand slowly so he can move his back feet more deliberately. He was going fast so his back feet were not on his mind as much as his front feet 🙂 Moving the circle hand more slowly will get him to lift and place this back feet more deliberately.
Yes- you can raise this for sure, he looked very confident.Great job here!
TracyHi!
>>I did do some any toy anywhere at the training center today. He did switch back and forth a little, but he is loosing molars and so it was very light play. It went well considering his teething issues.
That is perfect!! Yay!!! Just random play, any way he likes it, in new places. Fabulous!!!
>>As for the wrapping, I have great success with the object close to me but anytime I put some space between myself and the object he just went back and forth just to the dishes. So building distance from the object may take time.
One thing I have done to help it just used a leg or arm to help “block” the space between me and the cone, as the cone moves further away – it limits options and sets the pup up for success, then it is really easy to fade the help. So if he is on your left, you can reach out and touch the cone with your left arm so it is harder to go back and forth to the dishes and easier to go around the cone (I mean, he could jump over your arm, so have it just high enough that he is not likely to jump it LOL!) The other option is to fade the bowls (we are fading them soon anyway) and just use naked cookies on the ground or from your hand 🙂 That might make the cone more salient because the distraction of the bowl is gone.
Tracy
Hi!
Goat games:
Ah! That makes sense. He has much better balance here, and obvious improvement in core strength and balance. Very cool! I am not a fitness expert, but I do recommend that we all get an assessment with a veterinary fitness expert so they can design fitness programs for our dogs at each stage of life (the fitness needs of my 3 young dogs are pretty different!) He is about ready for that if you haven’t already done so, based on his confidence on these 🙂>>So on the baby teeter thing…earlier today I was down in the basement doing something else (not paying attention to the dogs) and Ronin started running around on that teeter tippy thing all on his own without me. Sooo, I thought maybe I would just keep it the same (not easier with towels, etc.) but add your suggestion of trying the back and forth reward pattern. I think it worked great!>>
Ha! Sounds like he had some latent learning and figured it out on his own. Perfect! The back and forth pattern was great – you can toss the food even further away as long as he doesn’t scramble around or get too wild chasing it 🙂 You can also do 2 tug toys for it too! He seemed perfectly happy with it today, gotta love latent learning!
Great job 🙂
TracyGood morning!
> Sprite wants to meet everyone. I got a little tug far away from the ring which is huge for her. Tried a little closer and she couldn’t tug. But, I could use food pattern games. Toys are turning on, but not so exciting for her like they are for Gemma.>>
I like that she is social! It helps build confidence really quickly. Hooray for food pattern games! Have you done any pattern games with toys where she chases them back and forth a bit? That is a good one to jumpstart toy play in different places. And the toy play will increase as she gets experienced in more places.
On the video:
>>I tried to ottoman as a go around prop. You’ll notice she backs up on one side. Not sure what to make of that. But, consistent with the side. It might be pressure from the coffee table. I have a plunger and cone, but it sounded like you wanted a bigger object?>>She is doing really well but definitely needs more room the errors were lack of space issues lol – she had a really good grasp of what to offer, but not always the room to get turned around to do it 🙂 I am not worried about the backing up, that was probably the reinforcement location and the coffee table limiting her space there. She also goes around behind you a couple of times, probably for the same reason (not enough room to turn around) – don’t mark it as wrong and you can still reinforce her when she gets back to the correct side, she is juts being clever and efficient LOL! That will all go away when we have more room and also when we move from shaping to cuing.
>> I have a plunger and cone, but it sounded like you wanted a bigger object?
Cone! Is it relatively tall? A cone is a good next-step for her 🙂 And also you can take it outside more easily than the ottoman 🙂
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi! Because she already has a really nice balance of toys and food in her reinforcement hierarchies, she probably thought this was the EASIEST THING EVER hahaha!
Food generally doesn’t achieve a high level for Border Collies, so it might always seem like she is in a slightly lower state of arousal than with toys. And that is fine 🙂 She is going back and forth really nicely and seems to have high value for both!
This game was really more about concept, so now you can start to think of other things to build value for. Are there things in her world that she doesn’t love, that you would like her to love? We can figure out how to build value using this same concept.
Great job here!! Let me know what you think.
TracyHi there!
Great question, and good observation on your part (and you already answered it too haha):
>>I have a question on this one regarding timing of the reward. I used “search” and was trying to not move my hands before I throw the reward. However, the delay caused her to look at me each time versus focusing forward on the jump. I was wondering if I should say search sooner and throw the reward sooner before she looks at me?>>
If the goal of the session was to increase jump commitment, then yes – say it sooner and throw it sooner (and further). That would mark the decision to head towards the jump (commit to the jump) and will also build in looking straight because the reward arrives out ahead before she looks at you. In this setup, there is nothing else to look at besides you when she arrives at the jump, so she is looking at you 🙂 Throwing sooner will definitely help that! When you are in a bigger area and there are other obstacles out ahead, I don’t think the early timing will be as important but on one jump here, it is definitely important.
Nice work!
TracyHi!
This also went well, and doing it on new things is always great!
The search toss looked good in terms of mechanics. Be careful of using it on a bosu ball or any unstable surface – she is not thinking about her body when she is dismounting, so her back legs are going every which way and she is twisting herself into a pretzel to get the cookie. Eek! I guess that cookie is super high value enough that the chase is very exciting LOL!!!Great job here!
TracyHi!
This was challenging but went really well, she was able to literally run right over the ball and still completed her behavior. Good girl! Both directions looked good too. And she seemed perfectly fine with the new verbal attached! She is probably reading the context as well, and that is great 🙂 So lets think about other ways to use it:
Are there other places you want to use this placed reinforcement? Independent weaves? Independent backsides? You can place the reinforcement where you want it in training or on a course, to help have really great in-the-moment reinforcement!T
Good morning!
Catch:
She did really well waiting for her catch marker and reward! Lovely! This is definitely something that you can bring into UKI (and USDAA too I think) NFC runs because they are happy to allow thrown reinforcement.
One suggestion: don’t proof the stay by waving the toy around or doing odd things with it LOL! Just cue the behavior and reward. The environment provides the proofing at a trial. Dogs are on edge enough on the start line, we don’t need to add possible failure by distracting them. It can add distraction & stress by using the reinforcement in weird ways – it is distracting because the dog (and I) both forget what we should be thinking about (the stay and the course) and start wondering why you are hitting yourself with the toy LOL! And so the dog and I are both now thinking, “wait, what is going on here??” in a moment when we want the dog to be thinking “I know exactly what will happen next”. LOL!
TGood morning!
Lots of good stuff here.
The backing up does look a lot better! Take a peek a StrykR and Kirstie’s threade, she is using a chair and having the pup come pretty far under it, which makes the backing up even easier to produce 🙂
This is going really well – I still think you should aim the toss between her front feet rather than putting it in past her shoulder because it causes her to turn around – your right hand tosses were past her and I think you left hand did a better job of getting the cookies under her. So work for dropping the cookies in under her chest, even if the hand comes in from the side.
Now – let it percolate. This should not be trained every day but rather every couple of days at most, to allow for some cementing and latent learning (no puppy exercise should be done every ay, except maybe recalls).
Wrap foundation is looking good, she definitely has better food value without the food needing to move much! Perfect! One more step before adding the upright – you can do the stealth placement of the food by quickly and quietly putting the treat down while she is eating the previous one, so she is not relying on your hand movement – so you can encourage her to offer going back and forth on her own. She is seeing/waiting for hand movement so we want to be sure she is doing this on her own before you add the upright. So one cookie goes to the lid and while she is moving to it and eating it, the other cookie goes to the other lid and ideally she does not see that happening. And if she looks at you: do not move your hands. Let her make a decision to offer going to the next lid, then reward with the treat.
Driving ahead – she is looking great with her driving ahead and you did a great job by getting there and engaging. Yay!
> I am pretty sure she is going to be a runner if she gets the toy before I can get there>
Yup. So…. this game goes on the shelf for now in a big space. The get it on toys game now moves to the smallest possible space (bathroom with the door closed or a big closet) so you can sit on the floor and play with her bringing the toy to you and not running off. Short get it toss will start the game, then when she grabs it and *does not try to move away* (or move away too far) you can reward that by having her tug with something in your hand, then let her have that toy, and repeat. She doesn’t have to bring it to you yet, she just needs to not try to leave with it (being in a tiny space will help that :))
Wobble board:
>>. I think this is what you are thinking for use her. We did some tugging both on and off the board.>>Yes, she seemed happy to play on it and was offering getting on it really nicely. I don’t see any signs of over-stimulation. Great! Just playing with a toy on a floor that happens to move a little.
>> It struck me that she was shifting off the board on some of the tugging but not all? Not quite enough room on the board or a bit worried?>>
Neither – she is a baby pup and it makes sense that she would want to sort out how to weight shift in tug on a stable surface rather than a moving surface. She did well! At this stage, there is no need for her to have to stay on the board to weight shift, that all gets added in later when the pup is more experienced and more developed.
Blinds – It was hard to see your upper body on this one, and it is an upper body cue – my guess is that she could not really see the new connection so if we make that clearer, the side change will be easier.
I think your timing is generally fine (yes a little late at :56 but also your were a little over-rotated on that one) – try making more eye contact down to her, or dip your shoulder down to make that eye contact, rather than presenting the toy. She might not see the eye contact enough so she is following your feet. The recall element of it looks great so now we need to show her the side change element 🙂Great job here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
