Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Hi!
Does she like to run around with a toy in her mouth?
It sounds like she will put her mouth on things but does not grip hard enough to really tug.
You can work on getting her to grip more by letting her win the toy – she has to pull it hard enough to get it out of your hands. If she loves to run around with toys – let her pull it out of your hand sand run away with it. If she likes to chase them, let her pull it hard enough to get it out of your hands and then throw it for her to chase.
If she will out her mouth on it while food is in the picture, you can let her win and then she gets a cookie!Now, you will need to make it VERY easy for her to win the toy at first – even just putting her mouth on it can be treated like a big win! Then gradually, over the course or many sessions, you can hold it long and make it harder for her to pull it out – until she is actually tugging on it in order to win it.
here are some visuals to give you ideas:
You don’t need to use the MM but it is a similar idea of getting the dogs to pull hard enough to pull it out of your hands.
Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>>I’ll try to dial back my pity partying
Ha! Don’t dial it back – give that part of you a different job. The pity partier inside of you has no been promoted to training planner. Let that part of you make plans for your next session. And if she starts the pity again, have your inner ‘self’ ask her to refocus on her new job. We hear the pity partier, and it is a valid thing! So we are not devaluing that part of you, we are refocusing that part of you into the planning part. This is all taken from some really interesting human psychology stuff that works AMAZINGLY well.
>>This one is hard because I’m just in general an affectionate person. I can clearly see it in the video how much he isn’t a fan, but in the moment I’m just like mama loves you so fucking much she wants to squeeze you.>>
Tell him exactly that in the session while tugging, then tell again on the couch inside later on, when he is probably going to love the snuggling 🙂
>>this! I say all done at the end of a session and can see a definitive shift in engagement. He sometimes deflates and always immediately runs off. What would be a better way to terminate using the examples above? Do you use markers do you give alternative behavior?
I also feel like I need to put sniffing on a cue, any suggestions for starting this?>>This is an interesting discussion! I think it rehearses deflating and disengaging, which we don’t want in any part of the training context. You’ll find your groove for the ending of the session. I do things differently with each dog, depending on who they are. In general, I let the dog run around with the toy for a bit, then I got get the toy, trade for treats, and if they require a physical cool down, take them on a walk. If they don’t need a physical cool down, I take them back into the house, or into the crate for the next dog to have a turn, or I let all the dogs out to run around – the process is different and fun each time, but I stay engaged and part of it. It is basically “we are leaving together”. And if I finish a session and want to go turn off the camera or reset a jump or something, I just let the dogs run around with a toy 🙂 so they have a grand old time when I am ignoring them LOL!! I might tell them to go for a run, which is a release to have a nice little party of one. Lots of praise, no real specific markers because we are not formally training. And if I cue the go for a run (which means take your toy on as many victory laps as you like) and they want to hang out with me? Fine! I will give them treats or toss the toys or just let them lie in the shade or hunt vermin along the fence.
I do not have sniffing on a formal verbal cue – they read the context of leash walks, potty cues and also the go for a run doesn’t have to be a literal run, they are welcome to sniff around too. The Papillon types will often sniff in that moment, the terrier and pointy dog will sometimes go sniff around for vermin, and the ever-perfect Voodoo will carry his toy around near me or go lie in the shade and watch me til I call for him. When Export was young, he would take his go for a run cue literally and run for 10 minutes LOL!
So, based on favorite activities, you can release him to them with these informal cues. I also do lots of recalls out of these activities (CB and HS can recall out of a vermin hunt) and then send them back.Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
These are great questions!>> She loves toys. Likes to tug, loves to chase, will retrieve when coaxed. When we go out to train in the pm, she is very into her toys.
Great! Keep track of what types of toys are her favorite and what situations/activities they work best in.
>> But when I take her out in the am before breakfast, she doesn’t want to play.
My guess is that if she has not eaten breakfast, then she is hungry enough that food is the only thing on her mind. I can relate – I am 100% interested in coffee and breakfast in the morning, and even other high value things do not compute for me AT ALL 🙂 So, maybe feed her breakfast (or at least half of her breakfast), wait for an hour, then try to play and see what she does.
I personally never train my dogs when they are hungry – I get far more success when they are not hungry, even when I am using food to train.
>>She will also not play at trials or at class. What can I do to get her to play tug in these environments? It’s important to me because it’s a barometer of her engagement.
I agree that we would like to get play in the class or trial environment. As with the breakfast issue, make sure she is not hungry 🙂 as that might be affecting the play! And, in class or trials, the distraction level might be higher or the game might be more conditioned to be food-based (it could be a number of factors). So, what are her highest value toy from your hierarchies? And lowest value food? You can get the ball rolling in class by bringing in the highest value toys and not holding any food – do a super short sequence that is fast and fun then throw the toy or ball and see what happens. You might need to develop this procedure at home first then re-create it at class. I posted a game yesterday about building toy value – that is the visual of what I am describing 🙂 And then when she interacts with the toy, you can reset with food then repeat. Try it at home to get it valuable for her, then move to class – then eventually it can move to trial.
Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>> lots of sessions with me trying to be more aware and cleaning up my mechanics when I’m reinforcing in “normal” training.
This is just as important than any of the other games! Yay!
I love how quickly he is picking up the ‘yours’ marker – we really want him to be able to drive in for toy that is not moving and he seems to be loving it here! I think you were asking too much on the first reps in terms of the value of the toy and presentation needing to be at a certain level right near him, he had too much failure. But than at :30 and after that, you changed how you presented it (more distance away from him, toy in front of you and not dangled as much) and that really helped for the “yours”! He was very precise after that. Good boy!
For get it with the treat – you don’t need to wait for him to look away, you can stay it without moving like you did, then toss it. Waiting for him to look away is more of a proofing game and we don’t really need to do that 🙂
You were quicker with the get it on the toy – so be quick but not toooooo quick so your hand doesn’t move before the word is said (although we present this procedure a lot when we are running and the dogs sort us out very nicely LOL!
He also did REALLY well bringing the toy back to your hand – that can be a tugging reinforcement or a treat (which is what you gave him at the end).Great job here! Onwards to week 2 🙂
TracyGood morning!
>> did three mini play sessions while I was making mac & cheese and bread
MMMM those are 2 of my favorite things!!! Now I am hungry 🙂 Is it too early for lunch??
I am loving his toy play here! Lots of good work on this video!!!
>>I ended up using OK catch because OK is my release word and I didn’t wanna poison that.
I don’t think you will poison the OK. That might end up confusing him: OK means come forward, catch means stay there. Just saying ‘catch’ if you always throw back after you say it will not confuse him, he is wicked smart 🙂
Keep rewarding the toy retrieve and the ‘out’ with more tugging or a cookie. More on that below.
The get it and cookie look good!!!! For the catch, throw a longer toy so you can engage with it rather than also try to work on the retrieve for now – we want the catch to be really strong because you can also use it for the a-frame contact behavior!
And separately, work on the bringing it – sitting on the couch and tossing the toy around is a nice lazy way to do it LOL!!!
Dangling the toy during the stay was too hard for now – don’t think this as proofing, try to set him up for success more by just doing the behavior (the toy is plenty distracting LOL!) and then the reinforcement procedure of ‘catch’.
>>Started saying free dog or a chew or whatever he wants to do with the toy seems reinforcing.
I liked this! He was happy to have a chill moment with you, I loved that you hung out with him so he could chew his toy next to da momma, until you reached for the cookies 🙂 Then he was ready for more.
>> Any suggestions for returning the toy?
I Believe the key is reinforcement – reinforcing with more toy play immediately (don’t take it away from him), reinforcing with another toy, reinforcing with a cookie – and that reinforcement can come if he doesn’t run away with it, then if he takes on step or two steps, etc. You don’t need to wait for him to bring it all the way back, you can shape it with successive approximations to develop the full retrieve.
One more thought: If you go and get it and take it away when he does not bring it back… he will not bring it back more because there is no reinforcement for bringing it back. So keep encouraging him to bring it or at least not run off with it, and always make it reinforcing for you to take it from him.
Placed reinforcement with the wing – having it at the entry might have been to hard on that first- try not to give any punishment markers if he makes a mistake, just wait for him to release and try again. He did well on the second rep when you moved it a little further away! Good boy! You don’t need to use treats or a catch when the toy in placed like that – you can use your get it marker to indicate he can go to the toy. That makes it easier than working through going to get the treats, etc.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>>Playing with a ball is promising. Both dogs will chase it on the field and they could do it and take a couple of jumps and continue to chase the ball. I had some boring treats with me which they would eat but then they would chase the ball again.>>
Perfect! Keep building up the fun with the ball! And check out the game I posted yesterday about building more value for toys.
>>I am not sure how to approach the week 1 lessons on playing with a toy. I am working on tugging and sometimes we can get a pretty good game going but it takes a lot of work on my part to get it started. Neither of the dogs will grab the tug spontaneously. Should I just keep playing with them to see if I can build a stronger interest before we try any of these games?>>
It sounds like the tugging is not actually reinforcement, so you can’t really work on tugging as a reinforcement procedure until the tugging has more value as at least a secondary (conditioned) reinforcement. So, work on the building value game and see how it goes! And play all of the food games.
Tracy
Hi!
Some ideas for you about which reinforcement procedures can go where:
>>1. Buccleigh: Start line stay in the agility ring at a trial
This is a combination of strengthening the behavior through the ‘catch’ procedure (more on that posted yesterday) as well as the remote reinforcement procedures (more coming in weeks 3 and 4 on that)
>>2. Buccleigh and Keltie: Increased confidence in the agility ring at trials. Both of them worry. This makes Keltie very slow and this is a consistent behavior for her. Buccleigh is either like a little bomb waiting to explode or he is slow and will sometimes just stop and look at me. Frequent rewards in the ring help so I think that being able to move the rewards out of the ring will help.
Yes – this is definitely a good one for remote reinforcement!
>>3. Buccleigh: Getting him to come to me at the end of the run. He has a tendency to head back to the start line and the gate we entered. I just realized that might be a product of my training our ring entry procedure at home where we exit and enter through the same gate. At agility trials we enter one gate and exit through a different one. Hmmm..>>
Also… remote reinforcement LOL! If he understands exactly when/where/how to get reinforcement at the end, he will come back to you.
>>4. I would like to be able to build value for toys so that I have something we can do that’s fun other than just feeding them.
Check out the building value for toys game I posted yesterday! We can get creative and add toys to some other really fun procedures and activities!
Tracy
Hi there! It was great chatting with you on Zoom!!!
>>As I brought up in the call, I am struggling with my 20month old Bichon bolting on me during class when he sees something more exciting going on. Rush is very smart and learns very quickly. A lot of my issues are handler related too I’m sure. He hates walking on leash and pulls most of the time. I’m struggling with breaking that habit.>>
I think you can get a 2-for-1 approach here with the leash walking and engagement – be sure that your reinforcement hierarchies are very clearly outlined your ‘get it’ procedure is VERY strong using food (with him on leash) because next week we add an engagement installation to it. For now – since he has to be on leash – maybe find a harness that he is more comfy with so the pulling is not as annoying to you and him? And also, you can stop the rehearsal of the leaving you and zooming by having him work on leash in group settings (and if the skill requires him to be off leash and he might struggle, then don’t work the skill). Bolting/zooming is not a fun thing for the dog, he just doesn’t know how else to earn reinforcement. So, continuing to ask him to be in that environment sets him up for too much failure. When the reinforcement procedures are stronger, it will be easier to get him successful in training scenarios.
>>I’m also struggling with contacts and getting through my head when to treat. He usually looks up at me before he does the nose touch and doesn’t touch the target completely.
You can abandon the nose touch and just do a foot target. The nose touch behavior was developed for dogs with a specific front and hind end structure (Border Collies!) and Bichons are different. So you can do a foot position and head bob to dramatically increase the rate of success. And if he is watching your hand, I suggest using the ‘catch’ procedure (work that away from the contact on the flat first, then in a stay). On the videos I posted yesterday, you will see a demo of me doing it with teeter behavior (2o2o).
>>My instructor wants me to try with the MM to get his focus more forward but I’m sure he will just go straight for it rather than doing the 2on 2off first.
Yes, a MM is a good idea but also yes, he needs to understand how to NOT just run to it. So you can start to install the MM into your remote reinforcement procedure. Also posted yesterday is the placed reinforcement games and you can play those with the MM! That will allow you to eventually use it the way the instructor described.
Tracy
Hi!
>>#1 Wish: Give the ball back. Please.
Does she run off with the ball, or come towards you but doesn’t release it? The get it and out procedure (especially reinforcing the out with another get it for the ball or a food reward) will really help there.
>>#2 Wish: Faster agility speed outside of the backyard. Annie is much faster at home than she is at lessons. While she tends to be a worrier, I don’t think she’s stressed at her lessons. I think she just has a history of mostly only being rewarded at the end of a course.>>
So her remote reinforcement procedure needs to be broken down to get more reinforcement into her at the beginning and middle of the course, not just the end! IF the reinforcement only comes after 20 obstacles, it makes sense that she would conserve energy earlier in the course and save it for getting closer to the reward at the end. More on the remote reinforcement work in weeks 3 and 4 🙂
>>#3 Wish: Stay in the weave poles even if you think your mom’s hand moved slightly toward her pocket.
Ha! That is partially a clean mechanics issue – if she is watching your pocket as a cue for ‘reinforcement is available’ then there is probably a history of your hand moving to pocket, reward appearing… then the reinforcement marker 🙂 So the hand to pocket is the reinforcement marker, not the word LOL! I am guilty of that too – my Hot Sauce has a fabulous toy ‘out’ with my hand touching my pocket as the cue LOL!!! OOPS! So really be attentive to when the hand goes to pocket, being sure it is after the marker. I also suggest 2 other things to help break that cycle:
– no more weave reinforcement from you hand. It is a bit of a poisoned cue right now, so we just delete it for the moment.
– instead, use a remote reinforcement process where the reward is elsewhere (behind her, off to the side, out ahead) and when she finishes the weaves, regardless of what your hands are doing – use your remote reinforcement cue then she can drive to the reward.T
Check out yesterday’s games about building value for toys! I think that will help!
>>The whole agility trial loop needs work, walking to the start line, doing the things, and leaving as well as other performance sports- mostly leaving and taking a reinforcer when you’re super high>>
Yes, that is mainly a combination of some of the engagement installations and the remote reinforcement procedures – more on that in weeks 3 and 4.
Hi!
>>Always always love working on interval between reinforcements and increasing that interval.
That will probably involve a combination of things depending on the context, but definitely the remote reinforcement procedures are key for that.
>> Also, working on me being quiet and still being a cue that a reinforcer is coming and you are doing well–almost a keep going cue but not exactly.>>
So basically – continue to ‘work’ without chatter from us 🙂 As long as the dog understands the context and environmental cues, I think tha can work for any of them. For example, the ‘catch’ marker – you can extend the duration of the stay behavior with you looking at the dog, then catch then toss back the reward. Ping pong the duration and your body language (for obedience, facing, arms down, no verbals, looking at the dog, right?) will be the keep going cue.
> And working on random treats that are on the ground and only the treats I specifically give/toss to you (i.e. doing a tracking test through a field covered in goose poop or heeling on an agility floor covered with left over treat scents and often treats).>>
I do LOTS of get it work in grass/dirt/leaves, etc – it is really important that the dogs understand that the get it is the ONE treat that you have tossed (and they see you toss it) 🙂 and to immediately re-engage. Then the delicious goose poop (eeww!) will fade away into the background 🙂
Tracy
Good morning!
>>All dogs were up, just sharing the space from a kennel and or ex pen.
He says that is too much 🙂 Especially if the dogs were not the usual friends in that environment. But – instead of agility, can he do tricks for swimming in that environment? Play friz? Agility does not have to be the primary thing installed at the moment. Engagement can be the primary thing installed. Next Monday, I will also be posting some engagement installations and I think that will help him too.
>>I’m really trying to add more distractions so hopefully we can trial someday but can’t quite get from sterile with no distractions to working past more than one dog there. It’s certainly not linear and some days are more discouraging than others.>>
Let’s take a different route – dial all the distractions all the way back. Reduce, don’t increase. Instead, install reinforcement procedures. Then I think you will find it much easier to fold in distractions. When distractions are difficult to add – it is not really about the distractions, it is about the reinforcement procedures. So set him up to understand more about the RPs and don’t worry about distractions for now. If we keep working distractions without the RPs in place, then the conditioned response will not improve and then it will continue to be frustrating to you both.
>>hopefully we can trial someday
The more I learn about dogs, the more I realize that competing is not about sport-specific skills or handling distractions… it is all about the clarity reinforcement procedures. I have complete faith that he will get it. In the lead up to the US Open, when I was getting CB ready for his runs (first competition runs, first outdoor trial, first all sorts of things) – I only worked on reinforcement procedures, not sport skills and not distractions 🙂
Catch is a super fun procedure and I agree – he was beginning to brace for it LOL! Good boy!
Yes, you are turning to him and starting to throw before saying the word on some reps. Try to mix in a little praise then ‘catch’ – that will get you to be a little cleaner. And for some dogs, we mix in a ‘ready, set….’ to pump them up but I am not sure he can do this yet – you can see how he does with the praise before the catch. And yes, you can cue a position if you think he will be successful – otherwise, let him offer. I like it when dogs offer in front of the jump because it means they are understanding the process we will use on the start line.He LOVED the whoosh! Wheeeee!
>>At the end you can see me go to pet him and he’s clearly like “no touchy while working” but also can tell the session is over by my affection. Smart boy.
Yes, let’s talk about it – I agree, he does not like the petting. That is not unusual for a lot of dogs who are working. So… don’t do it. Why would we add something that they don’t like to a scenario that we want them to love? I mean, when you are working and focused and concentrating on something, you would be annoyed if I came up and started petting your hair or draped my arm around yur shoulders. Ewwww, right?!?! And then when I approached in that scenario, you’d get a conditioned response of ‘ewwww.’ So – no petting needed unless he asks for it 🙂 And don’t take it personally if he doesn’t ask for it, he is not a whippet or terrier LOL!
Also, I don’t really want him to predict the session being over like that because note what he did: went off and did his own thing, in a work scenario. And that is precisely what you don’t want him to do in a work scenario (predict that he can leave). When he does that in a training scenario, you kinda hate it, yes? So we don’t want to build it in at all, anywhere. This is especially critical for dogs that are still learning how to engage in training.
I know a lot of people out there do ‘all done’ marker stuff but I am not a fan – it disengages the dog, handler disconnects and can also be a marker for a negative punisher (removal of something the dog wants – toys, food, engagement, access to work, etc). Poopy! So…. we can end the session differently, as a team, with engagement and reinforcement to continue to build behavior I want. The dog is always learning. So when you are done, you can have him come off the field with you, playing, eating treats, engaging with you, running back to the toy or bag of treats left outside the area. That also matches what the end of a trial run would be like! And then you can let him go for a run with his toy, or play a little frizzer or root around for some treats in the grass – all of which you remain engaged during even if you are just watching or cheering. You can release him to sniff or potty, or move with him abck to his crate area. The ‘wind down’ procedure after training or a run should still be engaging.Great job here! Let me know what you think about the end of session ideas.
Tracy
I can totally relate! No need to add more cues than needed, and also no need to change something that is already working so well!
Good morning!
>>I can tell you I’m stuck with bring it back only because she will bring it (toy or lotus ball) back but throw it at my feet. She wants a cookie for bringing it back OR she wants me to pick it up and throw it for her again. It’s a piece we have struggled with and it’s making the dumbbell retrieve a bit tricky as well, LOL!!
Any suggestions?A dumbbell retrieve and a lotus ball retrieve can be treated as different behaviors. I personally would tug on the dumbbell with her, so she has a reason to want to put it in your hand (trust me, she will not tug on it in the obedience ring because you can develop a procedure that tells her how long to hold it, when to release, when to tug on it, etc.)
But basically – sit on the floor and do little retrieves – hold you hand out as a target, nice and low, palm up. When she gets the lotus ball to hit your hand as she drops it, click then treat. The hand is a target for the lotus ball. At first you can help her by making the retrieves short and any interaction clickable – then she has to specifically put it in your hand to get the reward.
I have video of this with Nacho *somewhere* but I can’t find it at the moment. But here is something similar –
Voodoo putting the ball in a bowl as the target. You can start with a big bowl as a concept-builder then replace it with your hand.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka6xrtHNNhA
On the video – good job with all of these! a little feedback on the mechanics, keeping them as clean as possible to strengthen the markers:
When you are working the Get it and snacks markers – try to be a little more precise with the verbal marker like get it coming before the hand moves. They were pretty simultaneous here and that will cause her to just watch your hands. Same with the shhhhhhh and also the catch – word then movement will help get them really clear so she doesn’t watch your hand as much.And when you did catch with the toy at the very end – say the catch word before you begin any throwing motion – you can see you turned, lifted your arm then said catch. You can lead out watching her to be sure she is not moving, then say catch then turn and throw (btw, this is the procedure I use to get great stops on contacts even when the dog is highly aroused and I am running – I do this in FEO runs too. In AKC where the reward needs to stay in your hand, you can use a really long toy so you are holding the other end. UKI has not such rules about thrown toys, which is why it is a far better place to train the contacts – you can throw a ball or something back to her as you run by.)
The Bite marker looks good – you can increase the challenge and see if she will move to the toy after the word, before you move the toy 🙂On the toy “get it”, the toy was too high in value so definitely you will want to work on getting that toy back starting in a smaller space. And it was also too high in value as the remote reinforcement toy but also a REALLY good indicator of how much the remote reinforcement procedure needs to be built up! That is the bedrock of trialing. Try to avoid any markers like “hey!” – just simplify the game by starting with lower value rewards and putting the reinforcement up on a chair or table so it is visible but less easy to grab. The ‘hey’ is a punishment marker and will increase frustration – making things easier will increase success and reduce frustration 🙂
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi again!
On the decel and turn, your mechanics were not off, necessarily – you might have felt weird because you didn’t really decel: you moved at the same pace then pivoted. So I think the only thing to add here is slowing down more clearly when he is about halfway to you, so he prepares to decelerate. He is doing really well with the stay! If you use a cookie toss instead of a stay, you can send him to a cookie toss and then run a few steps, which sets you up to be able to show a bigger deceleration. Great job keeping your reward nice and low!!!Great job here! He looks awesome!
Tracy
