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Yay! I think you might’ve felt like you were fighting with him, and that is never fun.
I know a lot of people who tell me that a dog should not bark in his stay on the start line. So I ask, “why not, if everything else is perfect?” and they have no answer. LOL! Same with Voodoo’s weave shrieks. So rather than look at the one behavior (barking) that we are highly unlikely to be able to change, let’s look at what we can shape and reinforcement and maintain criteria: foot position, head, butt. He can do whatever he wants to do with his vocal cords, as long as he doesn’t move from the stay. I mean, if he wants to croon a Bruno Mars tune as you lead out – by all means, have at it, just hold the stay til released LOL!
>>He is such a happy, biddable, focused, hard working boy>>
Yes, all this, plus an excellent singing voice and lots of opinions. Also, fast. The excitement on the start line is translating into speed on course, and he is still in his ‘slow’ stage at just 14 months old.
>> I knew I had to make peace with this element of his personality now before I risked hurting our relationship and his joy for work.>>
That element of his personality is the same one that brings all of his speed over jumps and through tunnels, as well as his complete confidence on the teeter (I mean, he is one of the most confident dogs ever on all these crazy teeter games). So think of the start line as the start of the teamwork, and you’ll find the routine that works for you both!
THi!
Terrific work on all 3 of these videos!Downhills – it cracks me up that he is not patient, wants to start, and leaps on the teeter and runs up it without you, no matter where the tip is LOL! It shows good confidence!
Great job here – I think the target is in a good place, your motion was spot on, and he didn’t look for MTFM (Mama The Food Machine) until he was fully into end position. Yes, keep the visible target for another session or two, then go back to fading it. I think you can also lower the top end of the board on the Teach It a little more too!Rebound – he was a wild man leaping into position!! What a nut, in a great way! And he was fine with the rebound game, because… cookies. I am super thrilled that nothing seems to worry him at this point. Yay!
Elevator – Also looking great! I think you were not quite sure where the hop on reward cookie came in the order of festivities, so it was moving around and he didn’t get a chance to focus on the target as the countdown was ending before the drop of the board. You can see if this order feels more comfy: hop on cue, cookie for hopping on, countdown starts (and cookie moves away) then target cue then drop the board. You will probably see him start to look for the target as you are n the middle of the countdown and as the teeter goes away.
Onwards to Elevator 2 which adds more height and your motion! Elevator 2 becomes pretty important in coming weeks, and allows us to merge several tracks into the finished teeter. Fun times ahead!Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
Very nice session here! I think he is beginning to really solidify what the end position is! Things are going to move pretty fast now. So at this height of the board, add more of the handling challenges – the main ones being that you can continue to move for several steps after he stops in position, you can send him ahead, and you can do crosses while he is getting into position. And also, be sure to not stop as he stops, we don’t want him to rely on body cues to stop – I tell myself to keep moving for 2 more steps after I am sure the dog has chosen to stop 🙂 At first, your movement will be slow walking but then we can build up to going pretty fast! When he is very successful with the challenges and you can job past… then we add more tip 🙂
Great job! Let me know what you think!Hi! He is doing a great job here!!
>> I loved the rep where I had the lousy throw and he stayed in the poles instead of coming out to get the toy >>
Yes! That was a HUGE moment in sports history!!! It was almost a proofing game. Good boy!!!!
As he gets more experience on the channels, and you work both sides, you can change the reward placement: rather than having it at the end, you can carry it and throw it! The throws can be early at first but then you can throw right before he exits. That helps fade the ‘reward target’.
One other small detail: When he misses the entry – don’t run to the end, I think he takes that as affirmation he was correct so he was not sure why he was wrong. You can call him right back out, even if he goes to the toy first. Missed entry = momma stops and calls.
Great job here! I think this will be fun to work on at home too 🙂
Tracy
Hi!
>>I moved the tunnel around some more, and moved the poles a bit closer, both sideways, and closing the gap between them a bit. They are definitely straighter than 1 and 7. We’re getting pretty close to straight. But I just nudged them a bit.>>
Yes! Looking really good – accurate AND good striding, from the different angles. I think the next session should be everything the same *except* the poles are a little tighter. What I would do is put poles 1-2 straight, and maybe open 3-4 a little bit to make that variable easier as the first variable gets harder. If that is fine and happy, you can start to put 3-4 to harder angles. Then in following sessions – both bases go straight, but as that variable gets harder, move them further apart so she has more time to balance. It will probably take 3 to 5 sessions or so to get 4 straight poles at proper distance (so, basically, this time next week).
>>I was pleased with her performance. I crowded her on her first run and she zigged and hit the pole.>>
Yes – I think that she hit the pole when you got excited and started the throw. She didn’t do that on any other reps.
>> I had to include the one self-offered weave set. She cracks me up! >>
Yes! It was funny! And it was a threadle side entry, a hard one. She was showing off LOL!
>> It will be interesting when we add more poles….
Next week, we go to 6 poles 🙂 The videos are loaded and ready!
>> She begs every day to go to the field, and now the first thing she does is run to the poles and weave.>>
Ha! Don’t let her sucker you into too many sessions. One of my dogs goes and stands next to the channels and another goes and stands on the top of the teeter. LOL! Let to them, the dogs would do weaves every day all day, especially for the toys 🙂
Great job here! Let me know what you think and fingers crossed for good weather!
TractHi!
>>How much room between sets 1 and 2 when I have more space? He seems to do better closer together…>>When he gets the hang of it, you can move them to ‘regulation’ distance – what I do is set them up in a straight line of 4 poles, then angle them open to create whatever level challenge the dog is ready for.
He is doing well here on both videos! I think he is ready to have the bases closer but the PT should be further away – put it at least 6 feet past poles 3-4. That will help increase the speed too!
On the first video, he did really well with the entries all that until the 8 o’clock entry – that one was hard! That is understandable – when he struggles with a really hard entry, you can leave it, do some different ones where he will be successful, then come back to it later. Good job adding motion here!
The 2nd video also had good motion! Nice! He did well here too, until he got to the 5 o’clock angle The 5 and 8 are two of the hardest angles, so no worries – he will get those eventually. Keep working the easy angles too! As I mentioned above about the first video – if he is struggling with a really hard angle, you can switch to a different one and then revisit the really hard one later.
At about 3:20 you angled poles 3-4 more, which is fine but I think you angled them a little too much. At this point, change the angle in one inch increments or less, just tiny bits 🙂At the end – he totally loved the toy! You can mix in toy play into all of these sessions: it will also get more speed and it will help with keeping him focused 🙂
Nice work! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>> knew about her struggles with disengaging from potentially worrying stimuli, but I had been looking at her engagement with positive stimuli as a strength.>>
The interesting thing is that stimuli all generally fall under the category of stress – good stress, bad stress – and it can swing back and forth between the two in a heartbeat.
>> I suppose this inability to disengage with positive stimuli is the same behavior as the inability to disengage with negative stimuli. >>
Yes – both have reflexive elements (fight/flight/freeze, for example) that they need to learn to overcome. The negative stimuli is harder of course, because of the chemicals that flood her body when it happens. You might consider talking to Tricia about her experiences with helping her dogs through that, she has done a tremendous job with a lot of dogs 🙂
Tracy
OMG the one hit wonder session…. I don’t know what made me laugh more: the cherry ice cream with cheeeeeesey sprinkles, or the expression on the face of the person holding it LOL!!! She clearly thought it was nuts hahaha but Lennan was happy so then we are all happy. Yay!!!!! Now I am going to think of ice cream every time I see a teeter lol
Bang game – I think this was the first time on a teeter? Looked great!!! It took him a moment: HOLY CRAP THIS ONE MOVES! on the first rep, then he was fine. Nice position and balance going directly to position every.single.time. with a decent amount of tip, too!
Toy out ahead was not a problem, happy dance!
One suggestion: Try to release to the toy (or any release in general) when he is looking anywhere except at you. Ideally he would be looking at the target but looking at the toy is fine too 🙂On your next teeter session for the bang game, warm him up where he was here and then add more challenges at the same height: you walking past (building up to more speed, based on his success rate), sending ahead, adding some crosses. If that is fine and dandy, then the session after that can have more tip.
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
This looked great! Helping her with the handling was really good, she picked it up nicely. Yes, go all the way out to wing 3 so you can stand still and get her to zig zag 🙂 As with the baby level – she is ready for you to move the wings in closer (5 feet for now) and if she is fine with that and with you standing still at wing 3… go ahead and show off more and do it with 4 wings. Wheeee! Fun! Both sides look really easy for him, and that is great!!Great job on these!! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>. I think a light bulb went off and she came in on everyone, every side.
Perfect!!!! We like those lightbulb moments 🙂 You can gently angle the jump back to the original position as long as she is still super successful.
>> I did use a toy. If I use a toy, should I “click” the commitment to the jump?>>
You can do a verbal click of some sort, like a ‘yes’, then a permission to go to the toy (like ‘get it’ or something.
She did perfectly on the slice jump foundations! Nice patient sit (mostly lol), and she was spot on for the zig zags on both side. Yay!
You can move these 2 in closer and add a 3rd wing. That will add challenge to both the zig zags and to her stay. I think you should go to about 5 feet between the wings/barrel (length of a full size jump bar) for now and if that is easy, we can go to 4 feet distances 🙂
Oh wait – I see advanced below for the zig zags – onwards! Great job here!
TracyHi!
What is that white stuff falling from the sky?!?!?!? I take responsibility, because I urged all the MN people to bring their teeters outside. SORRY!!!! She did really well here! Great session – no rush, let her explore, let her find target position. The setup of the game doesn’t ask for a lot of speed so she is shifting her weight right at the beginning of the contact zone, but she got faster and faster each time! I am super happy with this.Not sure what you did between reps (brush off the snow? LOL!) but you can add in more wildness to stimulate her internal state: chasing toys, tunnels, anything she likes! Then a rep of the downhills. Then back to being wild, then another rep. And keep adding in the challenges of you running by and crosses etc, so she has those solidified as we add each new level.
She is making tremendous progress here and I know the next series of games will add even more speed. Great job!!!
TracyGood morning!
The age old issue: To Bark Or Not To Bark, That Is The Question 🙂I personally have zero issues with dogs barking on the start line. I wonder if the dog even realizes they are doing it – it is a ‘cheap’ behavior. It is possible he thought he was maintaining a great stay!
By leading out then either punishing (stopping or coming back to him, which is in effect a negative punishment) or coming back and asking for a trick then rewarding (which is positive reinforcement that could be causing the barking to be chained into his behavior) – I think you might run the risk of causing more issues that you solve. He did not appear frustrated here, his sequencing looked great. And he did not break his stay. But if the consequences on the start line are unclear: sometimes punish, sometimes tricks/cookies, sometimes release forward – you will create stress. That is likely to lead to more barking and also breaking stays.>>But, if I come back, he often keeps barking and barks right out of his sit. >>
Yep – that is the stress of not knowing what is happening and why. The barking changes in that moment, then he is guaranteed to fail, which lowers the success rate and becomes a vortex of fighting with each other on the start line.
The other thing is that in arousal, we sometimes get noise. Some breeds (cough cough TOLLERS also Shelties and Papillons and many others) are vocal. Does it mean he is over-aroused? I didn’t appear so here. Does it mean he is excited, quite possibly in a good way? Yup!
Many many many people thing that barking on the start line is a terrible thing because OMG the dog is too aroused or stressed or frustrated or whatever. But barking is not a one-sized fits all and sometimes it can be any of those things: read the context and success rate to try to have a better idea of why he might be barking (you won’t always know).
For example, flyball is very exciting and the dogs bark – but it is the joyous bark of THIS IS SO AMAZING and they are able to bark, then go lay down a super precise fast run with complete focus.
So think of it differently: what behavior do you want from his eyes on the start line and from other parts of the body (ignore the vocal cords for now): Can he hold his stay til released, focus on the line, keep the bars up, run fast, but also be precise? If yes: rock on! He is in good company in the agility world, many of the best dogs in agility bark on the start line.
If no? Then you can address the non-vocal cord parts of his body. If he barks himself right out of the sit, then he has broken the sit and the game stops. Bark and hold the sit? Cool beans, let’s run!
If barking himself out of the sit is a common thing, change the position for a while: a down on the start line is harder to hold when he is barking, so he might have to do a bit of problem solving to figure out how to hold the proper position 🙂
The best handling in that situation is to ask for the sit, let him settle into it, then get outta there: lead out, connect, release. Adding more pressure will probably increase the barking and decrease the sit, which is the opposite of what you want.> I have also played a bit with ASKING for a cued bark before I start my lead out (which I’m calling “ping” – as in “one ping only” from Hunt for Red October, which makes me a super geek).
Ha! Love it! I personally put barking on cue for all of my dogs. And also, personally, it has never worked to reduce barking elsewhere in life and sport LOL! I use it to get the dogs pumped up, knowing they will ‘offer’ it elsewhere LOL!
>>In the end, I don’t like him barking at the start line. I would like to stop that behavior.
The only ways to stop it would be to either punish it which would create all sorts of other problems, or create a start line behavior that is completely incompatible with barking (such as down with head on the ground and holding head on the ground until the release – which is incredibly hard to maintain in agility and also leads to punishing too often).
>> BUT, I also need to recognize he is who he is and at least ask the question whether his barking at the start line is a problem when it comes to his performance.
It might not be a problem at all. Focus more on the rest of the body for the start lines: eyes, feet, etc and not on the vocal cords 🙂
>> Is it potentially his way of saying he is ready to play? And, if he is barking because he is frustrated and excited to get going, I am wondering if all that control behavior on my part is just leading to MORE frustration.
Yes, this is entirely possible. I am sure you have seen the people at trials that fight with their dogs on the start line. Bleh!
>>What I’m asking myself is whether or not I should accept some barking, if so, what is ok and how do you draw the line?
I personally don’t care what comes out of the dog’s mouth, and I have no idea if they bark on the start line: I look only at the stay criteria involving position and forward focus. I know that a lot of folks might find it horrifying that barking doesn’t concern me – if the dog is vocalizing and still executing the trained behaviors? Great! I draw the line at stopping the trained behaviors and decided to bark at me instead… which means that I have not fully trained the behaviors in arousal, right?
An example: Voodoo barks on the way to the start line. And clacks and jumps around. Sometimes howls. LOL! I have no idea if he barks while holding his stay, because I am focused on my handling at that point and watching his body to maintain the criteria. He is really solid on the stays! He barks on course during runs. As a youngster, he used to bark at me and NOT commit to obstacles. It was a training issue, so I went back to deepen his understanding of commitment in arousal. I didn’t punish the barking, because he was already so frustrated.
Now he barks on course AND executes his trained behaviors – it is simply vocalizing, I am not sure he is aware he is doing it? For example, he literally screams when weaving at trials. Shrieks. And when he is screaming, he nails the weaves, doesn’t pop out. And on some send-and-go commitment, he will shriek when my handling is GOOD. I call it the shriek of surprise that I was good, for once. LOL!!!
I know when he was younger and frustrated, many folks would have punished the barking – but we know the science well enough to know that it would never work out the way we want. So I chose to focus on clarity and reinforcement and working through arousal, rather than against it. Now the only problem is that I am just too slow hahaha!>>If no barking, how do I discourage this behavior without adding more frustration.
Ignore the barking and focus on high levels of reinforcement for the behavior you DO want, in arousal. Then he might still bark, or not. Barking might be reflexive – he might not be choosing it operantly so trying to work it operantly might have fallout on other behaviors we like that he is choosing.
Let me know if that makes sense!
TracyGood morning! Great job in class last night! He is definitely doing well with his soft left & right turns! That is great, they are incredibly useful 🙂
I think the source of his questions here was that you melded 2 of the games together (sends’n’serps and the zig zags) and added distance plus speed… so the accuracy got a bit lost in moments. It falls into the ‘too much, too soon’ category 🙂 and also requires a lot of threadle understanding at speed, which is not fully in place yet. So in order to get it right, he needed you to be perfect in handling/timing/position. And if you weren’t (like at :26 and :39 on the first video, and :20 on the 2nd video) he didn’t get it right. He seemed fully engaged and trying to sort it out (not resistant and also not too locked onto the toy) – just not fully understanding what to do and when.So for now keep the 2 concepts completely separate: on the wing and the jump for the serp, work the send to one wing and serping the jump so he learns to come in on the serp when you are moving – starting at a walk, then jog, then run. Don’t add distance or anything else until he can come in on the serp jump with you running – then add more distance between the wing and the jump. It is pretty common that BCs (all dogs, actually) run parallel to the serp jump when the handlers run, so the other option to raise the success rate is to angle the jump a tiny bit towards him to make the bump more visible – so it is easier to take the jump and harder to run past it. That can allow you to add motion more easily.
>>Perhaps his instincts to stay wide are part of the challenge which makes him seem resistant to the come in cues in the serp line? Would u say manners minder might be useful here?>>
Yes, the MM on the sends’n’serps would be very useful! And I don’t think he was being resistant, he was definitely watching and trying to figure out the cues – there were a lot of things added all at once, so he wasn’t always able to sort it out.
For the zig zags on the 3 wings – try to get that without any motion at all (it is much more challenging that way :)) Try to lead out to the third wing and face him, and direct him through the zig zags just with upper body and as little foot movement as possible. That will help him focus in on the back and forth shifts that will produce the serpentine and backside slice jumping form.
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
