Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Good morning!
>>Another question. For the food verbals I think our goal is to have them know when they can get a snack and that they should take the snack gently. With the toy verbal we are using bite to tell them when they can take the toy and that they can take it more aggressively than food.>>
That is part of the reason (the difference in how hard their mouth should be). The other reasons involve helping the dog ignore the reinforcement in our hands until it is “in play” (so many dogs have trouble with that!) and also to help the dogs know which reinforcement is in play when we have food in one hand and a toy in the other, for example.
>>I’m a bit confused then on the verbal for movement toward the reward. You use shhh on both food and toy to cue movement toward the reward, and yet the dog is supposed to take the food easily and the toy can be taken more aggressively. How do they differentiate how to take the different rewards? >>
This is a situation where, for now, I use the same word and rely on the dog’s ability to process the context. When I am moving my hand, the presentation of the reward is very very different: the toy is dangling and the cookies are in my finger tips. The hand that is moving is the hand that is “in play” and if I have reinforcement in both hands, I will only be moving one hand. So, using one cue has not caused any confusion for my dogs in this context because there is always a physical cue with the moving hand and the reinforcement is very obvious. Using the single marker is an effort to reduce the number of verbals we need 🙂 but if, at any point, the dogs show any confusion then we need to add an additional marker to differentiate. I have not seen any confusion because the physical cue is so clear.
Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning! Lots of good stuff here!!!
Let’s look at the food procedures first. These were strong – keep reminding yourself to say the word then move your hand – it is so hard, I know LOL!!!
He does well with the food catch and the food get its, only had a little trouble finding it in the leaves during your outside session. You can differentiate catch and get it a little more (see below) so he knows exactly what to do.
When you want him to follow the food, you can move your hand more slowly and feed more often to encourage him to follow it. I think it was moving a little fast so he was hanging out waiting a bit 🙂With the toys: he was a really strong tugger here!!!! Nice! And he really seemed to like the toys you chose. You and he are fighting a little bit about letting go of the toy, and also the leg-climbing to grab the toy you mentioned (after the camera was off).
We can clarify that for him:
First, we can clarify when the toy is in play so he knows when he should grab it or not. It was a little hard to tell what the marker was to give permission to get the toy from your hand – and I think that confusion is causing some of the grabbing of the toy when you don’t want him to and some of the difficulty getting him to our it. You had a couple of different markers happening so when he should come in to get the toy, use only the maker for that (I think you had ok, get it, and a couple of others happening so it was hard to tell). And hold the toy still after after you say the marker: then it can start to move. Giving that bit of permission can really help him understand when to grab or not, especially because toys build arousal.About the out: same as with getting the toy, be clearer with your out cue – you had different words, repeated words, ah-ah markers, etc. So, you can clarify that so he outs it better: say the word, then relax your hands and wait til he lets go a bit. Don’t keep moving the toy or pulling it or repeating the cue, just wait 🙂 And here is the important part: as soon as he relaxes and releases, reward immediately: you can reward instantly by either giving him the toy back, or whipping out another toy, or whipping out a treat. What was happening here was that when he did release the toy, you took it away and did something else, so the reinforcement for outing the toy was either delayed or he perceived it as a negative punishment (taking away something desirable). So we can get a better out by rewarding within a second or two, for now. When the out is stronger, you won’t need to reward as quickly or as often. But for now – lots of quick rewards for the out 🙂
>>Right after I turned the camera off I did get over aroused climbing my leg to steal the toy. I made an interrupt noise and then played for cookies. Is this the right thing to do?>>
When that happens, he is just confused about the toy procedure so you can just wait til he releases the toy, then give him a cookie. Clarifying the toy procedures will help with this a lot.
One last detail:
You can differentiate catch from get it based on which direction he should move. If he is facing you and you throw it towards/behind him, then it is a catch because we want him to basically stay where he is or turn back for it. For a get it, we want him moving away from you off to the side for example, or driving ahead of you. Subtle difference for us, big difference for him 🙂Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>>Reilly has been really solid in offering the sit stays in the start line class. For the catch in this class I’m guessing I could get him to stay and then move off a ways and begin to throw the cookie behind. Would that work?>>
Yes – that is exactly one of the uses for catch! And bear in mind that it is a release to get the reinforcement, he does not have to remain in the stay after you say “catch’ then throw the treat.
>>Now a big toy question. We have always used git it for going after the toy whether on the ground, thrown, or in the hand. Do we need to have different words for each of these “toy events”? Especially do we need to have another word for the non-motion toy in the hand?>>
I would say yes – different markers needed. The different markers tell him when (and if) the toy is in play. That will help in a number of ways: it clarifies the availability of the toy, helps him stop looking at it (and where to look instead) and that way he can think less about the toy and more about the behavior. If git it means everything, then he is probably not processing the verbal that well – instead, he is watching for the movements that we do that predict the toy is available (meaning he is watching more than we want him too, which can lead to errors and frustration). In the past, we have not had this clarification for the dogs and we have had trouble getting the dogs to be able to run well with the toy present. That generation of dogs gets overstimulated when the toy is present, because they are not sure when it is in play or not so they get frustrated 🙂
Tracy
Hi there!
I am glad the backsides game went well! Those independent backsides are cropping up everywhere now!
>>The threadle exercises went smoothly for Mookie but Buddy needed extra connection from me.
That makes sense, based on experience levels.
>>For the the threadle discriminatiom, pinwheel and get out arm Mookie read it easily and reliably while again Buddy needed extra focus from me but still did them well.>>
This also makes sense – for now, don’t do too much threadle stuff with Buddy, just let him run really fast and happy to whatever is in front of him 🙂
>>The judges are really making the angles of the jumps severe which is hard for a fast dog like Mookie.
Should I be setting up jumps in severe angles and practicing these when I can ???>>100% yes! Practice the severe slices because they are popular in all venues right now. And if you are in a class, ask the instructor to make the slices harder 🙂
>>As for Buddy who is 20 seconds slower then Mookie on a course he did well and got his first Excellent Standard Leg with a woman judge. Only 3 dogs qualified in his class due to the extreme angles. In jumpers Buddy wanted to visit the male judge to check him out and went overtime. We are working on this. At least he did not try to avoid the man as he has done in the past.>>
Yay Buddy! Congrats on the Excellent Q! And I am glad to hear he is doing better about feeling comfy with males judges.
>>There is a very slight chance of a puppy in my stars at the end of Feb.
OOH! A puppy! Spots? Or a BC?
Thanks for the update! Keep me posted and have a great holiday season!
TracyGood morning!
I agree, more clarity is great – mainly because without the clarity, the dogs expend a lot of mental energy looking at or looking for the reinforcement – and then they get frustrated with us 🙂
The video is listed as private, can you reset to unlisted?
>>Get It is my cue for tossed food or toy
Perfect!
>>Cookie from hand, never really had a verbal for this, just a presentation of my hand -going to use cookie as a verbal for this, although this may lead to a conflict with when I use food in a remote bowl for reward – get the cookies is my cue for accessing the bowl
I agree, this might cause confusion:
if ‘get it’ is a tossed reward, and ‘get the cookies’ is find the bowl, and ‘cookies’ is treat-from-hand… I think they are too similar. So take the one that you think if strongest (if ‘get the cookies’ is strongest, for example) and leave the strongest one in place. Then change the words for the other two: toss for the tossed ones, or hand for the ones from the hand 🙂 I know, I am not very creative haha!>Catch, never used a verbal for this other than get it – going to use “catch” as the new cue
Follow the hand, never used a verbal for this, going to use “follow”>>These both sound good!
>>I have to keep a pace with rewards, any delay and Cody gets Operant with offering, you can see a bit of this in the food from hand game in the video. I did not ask him to down>>
That is fine for now, probably because he was thinking these games were too good to be true LOL!! Free cookies! We will get to offering behavior and responding to cues really soon, so he will have to earn his treats LOL!
Toy Cues
>>Get it has been my cue tug from hand -going to change this to “tug”
Take it is my cue for getting a dead toy or ball off the ground. No more chasing toys or balls for the boy. He has no regard for his body and he is 9 1/2. I worry about him getting hurt with his chase anticsThese sound good! And I agree about ball chasing… we need to make sure he doesn’t break himself!
>>>Going to use “catch” for a tossed ball. these get presented so he can easily grab them>>
Tossed back to him to pluck fro the air, like the treats? Perfect!
I am looking forward to the video – let me know when it is unlisted 🙂
TracyHi! This is looking really strong!
For the first two procedures (get it and snacks) – your placement was really very clear and that is great. One suggestion: try to say the word and *then* move the hand – you were moving the hand with the word for get it and moving it a little before the word for the snacks. Word-then-movement will help isolate and strengthen the word and get him to look at your hands less.
When you worked these as the combo, your hand was pretty stationary for snacks so the word was really distinct, and that was great!For the follow-the-cookie: “hand” is a really good choice of words because it can be elongated to match the movement of the hand! For the most part your hand was stationary til just after you started the word, so keep it like that: start the word then starting moving the hand.
He is really ‘catching’ on to the ‘catch’ procedure (pun intended LOL!) He was starting to stay where he was and also starting to offer sits! Yay! To help really solidify the position, you can begin with him on a mat or bed or something, so he is already away from you – it is hard to start the catch when he is right in front of you.
catch – you can start him on a mat or something so he is already stationaryWhen doing catch and get it in the same session, you can differentiate them more clearly: catch is where he has to stay where he is or turn back to find the reward. For get it, if he is already facing you, toss it off to the side so he moves away to get it, rather than turning back to it.
Nice work here! Onwards to the toys!
Tracy
PS: >> I tried the get game with Jackson and he reacted like a Jai Alai player!>>Oh dear, did he tackle you? I don’t know the ins-and-outs of Jai Alai!
Hello and welcome, great to see you here!!
>> He is definitely a foodie but I am trying to get him interested in toys. He will tug and chase a ball but only in the most relaxed environments. He has been pretty clear that an agility field is for running agility and not for playing with toys.
Because he will chase a ball and interact with a tug, we can work to ‘insert’ that into the procedures to build value. Stay tuned for more on that – I just did that with a tennis ball for one of the youngsters who had no interest in tennis balls… but is going to learn flyable, so the ball had to become exciting LOL! And we can do the same for Keltie!
>>Keltie is almost 4 years old and the polar opposite of Buccleigh. She likes agility but it’s kind of a fun game and not an intense experience. She is consistent but often slow. She runs faster when we are both confident and I think there is potential for improvement. She is an intense foodie and has been know to stop mid stride on a course if she smells a cookie anywhere in the vicinity.
She not too excited about toys but she will tug and chase things when she is relaxed. She absolutely thinks that the manners minder is the best thing that was ever invented.
Both dogs do better when I can reward with food while we train. I think this course is really going to help us transition from rewarding in the ring to rewarding outside the ring.>>Yes! We want to be able to ‘do it all’: reward in the ring as needed, but also teach the dogs how to run courses with the reward outside the ring and still love to run! The remote reinforcement procedure gets that started. And her love of the MM might prove to be incredibly helpful!!!!
I am looking forward to work on this with Keltie and Buccleigh!
Tracy
Hi!
Great lists! Clearly motion-based reinforcement is high value for her. And since toys raise the state of arousal to a place where it might be difficult for her, then you can really focus on the comob procedures: toy-food back-and-forth games, to help balance the arousal. And since she usually can take food. have you considered food-based toys, like a lotus ball or a treat hugger? I know that they are generally used by dogs that don’t love tug toys, but it might be a nice way to balance her arousal: movement plus food 🙂And her love of playing with trash will save you a lot of money on expensive tug toys LOL!!!!
The toy hierarchy sounds good too, as well as the activity hierarchy. The toys might be something you use in training to simulate trial arousal, but food is the main reinforcement at trials. It will take some experimenting to know for sure. And it is not surprising that at higher levels of arousal, she is NOT into snuggling LOL! That is pretty normal for most BCs that I know 🙂
Onwards to the games 🙂
TracyHi there!
Great lists!!For Laci – the food hierarchy looks fabulous. We can expand her toy hierarchy: do you have a treat hugger? It is another great treat delivery toy. And, if you have time in the next couple of days, fire up the Manners Minder and get her excited about it. I think you can use it for your get it marker and we can also add it to a lot of different things, including the remote reinforcement 🙂
Also, does she like bully sticks or pigs ears or anything like that? We can use those as toys! Ewww, I know… but if it gets her fired up, then it is worthwhile 🙂
And I think we can use some of the activities too like the sniffing and chasing!Keko’s food hierarchy looks great but the toy hierarchy is cracking me up! I wonder if we can put dirty socks into your training bag to take to trials LOL!!! We can totally use the various balls and toys in the procedures.
And as with Laci, I think we can incorporate the activities too~ you will need to ‘name’ them so they can be built up into markers: I have used “go for a run!” and ‘take a sniff’, for example.
Great job! Onwards to the foundation procedures!
TracyHi!
Great job with the toy games!Catch – he really likes the ball! Yay! Before you were saying catch, you had your hand in the air – that might be because he was so close to you. So to strengthen the marker, you can try having him stay on a mat or something, so he is not as close – it is hard to do a catch when the dog is right in front of us LOL! That will make the mechanics feel easier, and you won’t feel the need to throw it over his head, and you can keep your hand lower until after you said ‘catch’.
The get it section looked strong, Could really see you separating the words from the movement, like at 1:33 – good timing there and generally good timing throughout! And he of course thought it was super easy LOL!
He wa a good boy going from the balls to the tuggee! I agree, I don’t think you said chomp LOL! So add it in 🙂 And also, does he have a ‘bring it’ or ‘out’ cue going? Those can help set up a nice little loop of the get it, bring it, out, chomp!
Great job with these1 I am looking forward to applying them soon!
TracyHi! Good question!
Depending on how you use catch and get it, there should be no confusion if you keep them different.
For catch -the dog should stay where he is because the cookie is coming to him. Tat is why we throw it to him or just behind him.
Get it is a moving marker – meaning, he should move forward to get the reward. I don’t use ‘get it’ when rewarding staying in position and throwing the cookie back to the dog – that is a ‘catch’ moment. If I wanted to use get it, I would throw it forward or slightly off to the side, so the dog will move forward out of the position. Catch is like pizza delivery to your doorstep: stay there, it is coming to you 🙂 Get it is like going out to dinner- you have to leave your position to get to the food, which is somewhere ahead of you.
let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>>Boy. . . I need to catch myself. Sometimes I say the verbal and toss/hand movement at the same time. I need to clean up my mechanics.
Video is great for this – we see things we don’t notice in ‘real time’ and it keeps up honest. I think being super careful in the foundation stages will allow us to be a title muddy when we are running and arms are flying everywhere LOL!
>>I video both Flurry and Skye. I though it mentioned somewhere that we could show the other dog but making sure to not go over 10 minutes a week. Otherwise, just ignore Flurry:-)>>
Yes both dogs can be in the video 🙂
Speaking of the video: it is indeed a fine line between moving too soon and moving too late, for presenting the reward after the marker.
You were being a bit too slow on the get it toss in the beginning but then you got quicker. Because you are a musician, think of it as 2 1/8th notes then a quarter note – you hand moves on the quarter note 🙂 If your hand moves on the 1/8th note, you are too early. If your hand move on the downbeat of the next measure (we are in 2/4 time here haha) then you are late.Question: Was her head down because she was looking down for the treats? She seemed engaged and was happy to eat the cookie however ou presented, but had a lowered head position. It was hard to tell because her back wa stop the camera, but I think she was just looking downwards to get the treat? her get its and catches looked great!
I see what you mean about Skye’s get it, trying to get the cookies as you release them. You can teach the procedure with him starting on a mat or Cato board or something – he in on the board facing you, you say get it and toss off to the side so he moves away to get it. The other option is to have him at your side, hold his collar if he doesn’t mind that, say get it, toss, then let go 🙂 That can build an understanding that get it involves leaving you and doesn’t involve trying to catch the treat LOL!
he did well with the catch – your hand was moving a little too much, so this is a good one to remind yourself not to move your hand.The shhh marker was surprising to him for some reason, he is probably not used to following a cookie hand? So, you can move the hand more slowly so it is right at his nose, and give him the cookie more frequently. He really likes cookies so he will figure this one out really quickly 🙂
>>I don’t have video of this, but I can do Get it with cheese on my front walkway with leaves all over, and he doesn’t grab to eat the leaves. So, there is some success there. Just need to keep working on incrementally adding in plant material as distractions. I can take him on walks or hikes, and he won’t eat things for 80% of the time now. Oh! And, he runs to get in the car now! He started to panic on car rides, but Dr. Overall had me use Sileo to D and CC to the car and rides. It worked like a charm. He had associated my car with going to the vet. I’ve had to switch to a mobile vet for him.
This is amazing!!! Well done!!!!!! He is doing really well 🙂
>> I’m working on the plan on how to get him back to going to the regular vet, but I’m not going to take him until I can go in with him. Flurry is now refusing to get out of the car at the vet.>>
I saw a CU game done inside a vet’ office, I am sure you know which one it is … Maybe the vet will let you come in to play the game but not actually get a treatment?
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
