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Good morning! This session looked fabulous!
The wing-to-wing stuff looked great, I am not surprised. You were easily able to move the wing and your running line both over to position 3, no problem. But he was perfect when you added the bar in, even with the staring point and running line far across the bar AND with you adding in independent motion past. YAY!!! Usually the bar makes things harder… but not for Nuptse! Great! So, yes – work the other side for a couple of reps and then go to the full jump on both sides. The full jumps will open up the opportunities to balance with the front side of the jump, and I think he is ready for that challenge.Great job!!!
TracyGood morning!
Based on your recent posts, I figured you would like this one 🙂>> I had to laugh because he immediately fell into the trap of all threadles, all the time!
I feel this LOL!!! My young dog’s all threadles, all the time carried into a seminar the next day too 🙂 I blame it on the high percentage of herding dog in my large dogs. My mostly-terriers or Papillons simply never get into that mode. It is interesting! There is something about threadling that those herding-types love. Did you Belgians get into the all-threadles mode too?
>>In conclusion, I think he comes through on the threadle about the same distance he comes through on the wrap. In other words, a long ways. Perhaps the answer is to fix the wraps? Perhaps the answer is “good enough”. Comment?>>
I think that we can improve the collection into the threadles – it falls into the ‘good for now’ category rather than ‘good enough’. I see it as a learning curve for the dogs – first we have to cue/train the collection on the turn jump before the threadle, and I am seeing tremendous progress with that already. For the wrap collections needed, I think we need to train more but train it very specifically: getting the more ‘wrappy’ collection while we handlers continue to move forward to the threadle jump. Basically… the wrap collection cues from verbal and upper body need to override lower body and motion. Therein lies the problem!
With most of our wrapping, we are giving the dogs a lot of physical cues from the lower body (decel, rotation, position) and with the wrap before a threadle – nope! None of these, ideally. So it makes sense to me that the collections are not as good – after all, we are only giving the weaker parts of the cue.But, we can strengthen it by isolating it: going back to just a wing, which produces wrap collection automatically, we can set up training where we cue the wrap on the wing (verbal, upper body brake arm if needed) while we continue to walk forward (the build to running). Placement of reinforcement for wrapping will help seal the deal (throwing the reward back to the landing line of where a wrap would be).
Then it builds to a wing to jump threadle line, then 2 jumps, and so on. We did this with the most recent generation of MaxPup grads and they are so strong with those collections.I think the key to tightening threadles up is training the collection on the turn jump. The left/right on the easier threadles is pretty easy to get, it is the harder threadles (that we see in AKC Premier, for example) where I think the training will be focused.
Let me know if that makes sense or if I need more coffee. If the weather holds, I might be able to grab a video of what I mean later today or tomorrow morning – my 3 year old really needs this skill!
>>I think I used up almost my whole weekly video allowance on this one. But that’s ok, it’s what I mostly need from this course.>>
Ha! I really am terrible at keeping track of video limits – the limits are just suggestions so people don’t over-train or drill the dogs into oblivion 🙂
On the video: overall he had a nice high rate of success and he was offering some really lovely collection before the threadles. I think we can get it even better on the harder, flatter threadles but the collection on the soft turn threadles is looking good!
Starting with the softer threadles at the beginning on 2 jumps working on the collection on the turn jump:
A couple of little setup details: Start him further back from the turn jump, maybe 15 feet, and release with directional. When you release with OK, he is going to make the decision to stride into the first jump with a bit too much extension and make the left verbal late (which is actually a right here but he figured it out LOL!)
He did well with this and figured out the collect-then-threadle really nicely.When you went to the wrap cue – in this situation, don’t rotate as you reward it. Instead, keep moving up a parallel line towards the threadle jump – let him come all the way back around when you are not cuing the threadle, but keep facing forward and eventually even slowly be moving laterally along the threadle line (but continue to reward where you did at 1:40, throwing the toy back on the wrap line)
I already see tremendous progress like the collection at 1:54! This is the track you want to be on!
When you added the tunnel, the collection deteriorated a bit but I think it was because you added a little too much speed before we have independent collection understanding. Both of you were moving fast. So separate that – have him be the one that is moving fast by you sending way away to the tunnel, then walking up the line. That way he can process all the things without the variable of you moving fast too – that will get added in shortly. But his collection at 2:30 is already so much better! He is not jumping in big extension there then trying to find his way back.
A timing thing: On all those good collections… your threadle verbal can come when you see his weight shift/collection before takeoff for the turn jump. That will help him get the threadle and also, it will help him in the moments when you only wanted the wrap. So if you are cuing the dig dig or check check – at collection, the next cue can be either the threadle cue, or his name so he knows before liftoff where he is going next. On some of the wraps-not-threadle moments, he had great collection but then hesitated after landing to see if it was going to be a threadle or a wrap.
And as I am thinking about it… even if you don’t see the collection, switch to the threadle cue before he takes off for the turn jump anyway. Ideally we see the collection… but sometimes we humans are late (NEVER! HA!) so if we missed the window for the turn cue, we can go to the next window for the threadle.
Arms – because the collections into the threadle on the turn jump need to override the line of motion, you can also add in a bit more upper body help. You did have some arm cues going, but also you were decelerating. You can play with adding a bit more brake arm (low hands) but don’t decelerate, keep moving steadily up the line – slow and steady at first, then fast and steady. For now, walking is perfect as long as you are not stopping.
I have found that the ‘older’ generation (3 years and up) are finding the brake arms useful because it adds a physical cue to assist with the verbal cues. That is how they were trained, so it makes sense. And the younger generation (2 and under, the pandemic puppies) are pulling this off mainly on verbals, because we changed up how we trained things and emphasized the verbals being more independent, like the game on the wing where the handler continues to move forward even when giving a wrap cue.
For the threadle – are you using dog-side arm opening up or outside arm? I notice on his most successful threadles , you are rotating your upper body ever-so-slightly towards him. For example at 3:29 – your upper body is rotated towards him even though you are not using your outside arm. I think that rotation is helping him, and in situations where you are not ahead or able to decelerate, using the outside arm might be very helpful. Which arm you use is more os a stylistic choice as long as it is consistent 🙂 but be sure you don’t also use deceleration to get the threadle – for now, keep moving slowly (too much speed right away will be too hard). When you switched sides, there was a little too much speed so he had more questions about getting the threadle, which was causing you to stand still.
All of the balance reps were good, it took a while for him to break out of the all-threadle mode in the beginning but then After that he was pretty balanced! The serp balance was great, along with the threadles and backsides, such a fun exercise!
Great job here! Let me know what you think. I think the main things to consider are:
– isolating the collection cues on verbals only, with motion just moving up the line (no decel, no rotation)
– staying in steady motion when you work threadle sequences so decel doesn’t get built into the cue
– deciding which arms you want to use.Tracy
Hi!
>>Looks like I can pick and choose depending on the situation.
Exactly! It is like shoes: what works best for the situation?
She did really well here! Any handling skill that turns the dogs away from us is pretty challenging!
>> I realized just how much she is relying on my physical motion.
Yes – as you were getting this started, you were using your lower body/line of motion as the primary cue. That is great though, we need to make sure she understood how to turn away from the original line. And in some situations, that physical cue will be the best (normal rear crosses where you don’t want to flip her away while you leave or layer the next line, for example).
But yes, you can fade your physical cues for the moments when you do not want to step across the rear cross line (and also for the moments where there is no rear cross line, like the exit of the weaves or exit of tunnel flipping away to a jump). This will be great for distance work, setting up layering, etc.
So the easiest way to fade the line of motion is to add an upper body cue – I use a 2-handed “grab and flip” move , which is similar to a tandem turn (except the tandem turn also has lower body movement and this 2-haded move does not). Start it on the flat – just using your hands, with ehr at your side, turn her away from you and don’t move your feet 🙂 Then add it to a wing, then to a jump.When you add it to a jump or line of jumps, emphasize the upper body to help her – and you can use a little bit of lower body, but gradually fade it out so it is just a tiny bit of foot turn and not actual motion across the rear cross line. This session had really good motion and she reads that really well – so I think the foot turn will be easy for her to read at a distance when paired with the arm/upper body move.
In the moments when you did fade the line of motion and just used verbals, she figured it out – but the earlier use of upper body will allow you to cue much sooner to tighten up the turns.
>> Can I still use physical cues or do I have to freeze in place?
Yes, I would totally use physical cues, freezing in place causes the dogs to rely solely on verbals which is really hard! Exaggerating the upper body and arms motions will allow you to minimize the footwork, so you can maintain your position at a distance and then set up some really good layering opportunities 🙂
Now about the verbals 🙂
>>Will I confuse her horribly saying 2 or 3 verbals such as “over-turn-lef”?
I think that might be too many words – ‘over’ in particular is the one that might be confusing, because ‘over’ is a general commitment cue that implies turning towards us. So for the switch aways, no need for ‘over’. Now you can use you ‘turn’ cue if it always means turn away – but it doesn’t really tell her how tight so you would also need to add deceleration (easy to do :)) Or, on jumps you can try it without over or turn and just use directionals (left, right, wrap). For the weave exits, you can use ‘turn’ if you like!
Let me know if that makes sense – less is more in terms of verbals, so you can repeat the on verbal like “turn turn turn’ so she has time to process it, rather than process 3 different verbals in a row.
Great job!
TracyHi!
The baby Tasmanian Devil aka SheltieVelociraptor did really well here, especially turning to her right as you mentioned. I find this game to be MUCH easier with the baby dogs because they are not experienced enough to look for off course lines LOL! She was awesome here, no problem on the right at all. Yes, the left was a little harder but still really good!
A couple of details on that left side:
When she was turning left, I think your go was too early – she was still ooking at the off course pink jump out through the box. So you will want to delay the timing of your go cue until she is full turned. Right now, she wasn’t planning any off course adventures, but when she is more experienced, the timing of that go cue will actually cue her to continue to the pink jump.As you added more angle on the right turn side – it is a fine balance of staying more connected but also keep moving. I think some of her questions where related to not enough connection like a 1:36 when she got really mad, or not moving enough like at 2:03 when you were rotated a bit too much with your outside arm showing, and not moving that much, so it pulled her off the line.
She did have some anger moments at 1:36 – if something goes wrong, give an immediate reset cookie or ask for a trick and reward her, just to break the habit of barking/etc when she is frustrated.The other thing that might have caused her to get mad at 1:36 was that it was too many reps of the same thing – you can balance more by mixing in the tunnel, sometimes driving to the pink jump, etc. I don’t think your session was too long – but it might have been too repetitive for her. Too many same or similar reps will cause he dogs to ask questions (even when they are getting rewarded) so balancing will add variety and help keep her happy 🙂
And sorry about your finger! OUCH! At least you have a reason why your throws went a awry sometimes 🙂 Mine go awry sometimes for no reason LOL!
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
Both dogs did well here – a slight tweak in positions can help them both! I think some of the hesitation on the marking forward for the send was positional.For Min:
To maximize speed and minimize collection (she is one of the few dogs that can make this a tight turn without having to slow down to collect), you can set her up on a slice facing the landing spot. Then you can be a bit further away from him so it is really clear that you the slice wing – really facing it (it does make connection harder but the arm/leg/verbal are clear for the dogs).
You are both too center-of-the bar on the first rep (more collection for her/less speed, and potential rear cross pressure from you) At :47, you were more but your position was more on the the right turn side and your body is pointing a bit to the right turn (but wanting a left turn)… so she jumped up a bit then turned right at 1:04. Compare that to your position at 1:09 – definitely clearer that you were facing the left turn wing, and she had zero questions there! So in this scenario, when she is n your right side for a left turn, you can face the camera more. And when you want the right turn (she is on your left) you can face the fence more like you did really well at :43.
Let me know if this makes sense or if I need to try again after more coffee haha!Kaladin also did really well! He had some questions about starting the forward/marked sending, but I think it was more about “is that really my release word?”. Once he moved, he did really well with his commitment!!! You can try a bit of opposition reflex to help affirm that yes, it really is the release 🙂 by holding his collar or gently pushing back on his chest in that ‘marked’ position (your foot will be forward), saying the verbal, then let go.
The backwards sending looked a little more confident in that he was totally sure he was released to go, probably from the baby stuff we did with the prop in Maxpup foundations.>>. I might use the mark method if it’s a wider turn and the backwards send/throwback if I need him to wrap close and drive out at more of an angle>>
I think this is a good philosophy! The backwards send is also great if you need a spin or FC right on that first jump, as it is easier to make the side change when you are already rotated than if you face forward then start the rotation.
>>Looking at the rest of the games, I think I will do a bit of the independent backsides and the threadle success with Min before the open. I did some of the obstructed path work in the summer camp. The switch aways look a bit more involved and she has an OK switch away from Gamblers practice already.>>
Good plan! In your copious spare time 🙂 take a look at the maps I posted yesterday – threadles and backsides are a given for the Open, but check out the uses for the obstructed path stuff. Some of it looks just like the jump boxes in the game I posted – lordy! I hadn’t seen those maps before filming the game.
Have fun!
TracyHi! I checked it on 2 devices and it is playing normally. Where were you seeing the issues on the video? It is hopefully just YouTube misbehaving, as it is sometimes known to do.
Tracy
Good morning!
This went really well, just a couple of small suggestions for you:
For these relatively tight blinds, being close to #2 is a good thing because the closer we are the to the line, the tighter the turn 🙂 Working out timing of when to tart it and then turning towards 3 (rather than going long past 2) really helped him set super lines!You were a little early on the 1st rep for the blind, he needed you to make a connection between 1 and 2 to commit him to 2 before blinding. You got that connection at :22 but then you were a little late starting the blind. Connection and timing looked great at :31!
The last 2 reps also looked really good – be sure that your position line up position for the backwards send is more parallel to the wrap wing, and not near the center of the bar – if you are nearer to the center of the bar when you send/step and leave, if there is any added pressure can start to look like a rear cross cue. This is what might have happened when he turned to his left instead of to his right at :09 – a slight pressure towards the center of the bar, partially based on how you stepped into the send and partially because of the location of the tunnel cramping your position a little, pushing your position closer to the center of the bar and less outside the wing. When you are sending backwards and there is any question about possibly showing rear cross pressure, you can wait an extra heartbeat to be sure he knows which way to turn – being fully rotated and far away gives you lot of extra time to play with 🙂
Great job! And a very recent course map with this backwards start just came across my desk, I will posted it up later today 🙂 Let me know what you think!
TracyHa! They are threadle machines only when I don’t want them to threadle LOL!
You should now be able to see the MaxPup classroom – it officially begins on November 16th.
TracyHi!
I agree that he did really well!!The first rep was easy for him, he never looked at the tunnel. On the 2nd rep – stay closer to the wing so you don’t have to step to the jump. Stepping to the jump definitely opened up the tunnel as a valid option, he looked at it because you moved towards it but then responded to your verbal. Yay!
He did well on the bigger sequence reps at the end! He dropped the bar on the jump after the tunnel on the first run with the longer sequence, possibly because you switched to the go verbal over the bar. You delayed the go verbal til after he landed on the next rep and he did great.
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
This was a good one to look at where she might have questions 🙂 On the first couple of reps, it was hard to see your exact position, but it looks like you can be a little more tucked into the wing – that will get the threadle without you needing to step to the jump at all, which can help her avoid the tunnel 🙂Speaking of the tunnel… :13 and :23 opening up questions about commitment and tunnel discriminations – if you stayed there long enough to get the commitment, you also got the tunnel. At :33 and :40, you added wrap verbal and took out motion, which is exactly what I would have suggested. And then you added a spin, which she also didn’t read. So since you tried the handling things to help her out, the training element is what we need to do to help her by reducing the distraction challenge of the tunnel. There are a couple of ways to do this – you can turn the tunnel entry down so she can’t get in it. Or you can curl it away so it is less visible.
The other option to teach the concept is to replace the tunnel with a jump – you can work the skills with more success, because the jump is less tasty than a tunnel LOL!! Your handling was correct in the early reps (moving away with the wrap verbals for the exit) so this is more about getting her to understand how to resist the temptation 🙂The sequence at the end were strong! She just needed to see you more clearly on the jump after the tunnel to get the backside on that first rep, but then on the last reps she was great 🙂
Nice work!!
TracyHi!
The best parts here were the reps at :26 and :30 – very clear hand cues and I think that will be really helpful! You can keep those hand cues in place for both dogs, and fade the foot rotation. When you have a placed toy, that is helpful! You can also balanced with the placed toy: sometimes go straight, sometimes switch away. That way the toy will not be the cue to turn away, and your hands can do all the talking 🙂When you added speed back in, your hands were still there but got higher, so try to keep them lower – when your hands got higher and you stepped in more. To get the best independence, you can keep the hands low to minimize the need to step in across her line at the weave exit. And definitely add this hand cue in to her jump switch aways (and to Kippy’s too!) – it looked really great 🙂
Let me know if the ideas for the switch aways make sense!
TracyHi!
For Kippy – once the hand cues are added in (check out what you did with Emmie at :26 and :31 below, it was great!), you can start him at the end of the poles and teach him what the cue looks like in that scenario so he can turn back to the tunnel. The low clear hand cues really helped Emmie and I am sure he will find them clear too (start them on the flat, though, before starting next to the weave exit). When he can do it from the weave exit, then let him weave and flip him away when he exits. Low and slow is the key to the hand signals – keep the hands low, eye level for him, and move slowly at first so he can process it. He was getting it when you were stepping across the exit of the tunnel, so adding the hand cues will allow you to fade out stepping across and then you can add more and more distance too!
TracyHi!
For Emmie, you can add in the hand cues you were using in her weave session – that way you can fade out the rear cross motion and foot work. On the 1st rep & 3rd rep, you had the RC motion going which was great to turn her away and set up the layer! Yay! When she is working out away on the line, keeping your arms down will help support the layer. Your arm was coming above your head, so it was turning your shoulders and blocking connection which is why she had a question on the 3rd rep. On the
2nd rep – there was no RC motion so she didn’t read it, it looks like a FC wrap. Addi n the hand cues to flip her away will help her be able to get it when yo uare on that side of the bar (which will set up nice layers!) On the last rep, she was getting it with your feet turning away and the hand cues will make it even easier 🙂 Nice work!
TracyHi!
This was a good session to get the rear cross concept going, especially if rear crosses are not your favorite tool 🙂 – you were using your footwork and running line to get him to rear cross. So the next steps would be to teach him how to do this without you needing to pressure into his line. You can add in upper body to this, hand cues in particular, for when your line of motion or footwork can’t show rear cross. Think of using your hands to grab him and flip him away 🙂
To break it down, start with him at your side, on the flat, no jumps anywhere nearby: and with your feet forward, just use your hands to get him to turn away from you in a circle on the flat.
And when he can do that. add in a wing (not a jump – a full jump has too many options). See if he can flip away to the wing while your feet move forward.
Then it will be easy to add to the bar without having to work your footwork or running line as much.
Really emphasize your hands and not your feet – you’ll find the comfort zone hand use – I see you were starting it on Emmie’s weave session when you used both hands to flip her away at :26 and :31 without having to do too much footwork: perfect! More on that below.About the verbal: If switch means turn away on the flat, use either your jump directionals (left/right or wrap cues) or an entirely new one so he is not confused.
Wen he can do the one jump going straight or turning away, the next obstacle I would add is the tunnel – it will be easier for him to drive to than a jump (the tunnel has fewer options than a jump and is usually an easier visual too :))
But I think the main focus to make it easier will be getting him to understand the hands, then attach the verbal to it 🙂 He is off to a great start!
Tracy
Hi! Thanks for the update 🙂
>>1) Backwards starts: Both of my boys responded reliably to a break hand start
which is my physical cue for a wrap.Perfect! You will probably see these starts at some point soon.
>>2) Obstructed running paths: I had fun with this.
I really need to use verbal cues and and upper body to override motion to turn Mookie away from a tunnel in his path. Buddy will just follow my motion as I am usually running with him or ahead of him while Mookie shoots by me. I have been afraid of causing knocked bars with my verbal cue timing calling Mookie off and directing him and sometimes I can’t get the words out fast enough. It has been a tough balance for me running Mookie. I am probably holding my breath when I run Mookie as he is intense.>>I agree, it is a tough balance to time the verbals while trying to help him keep bars up. One thing that can help is setting up simple jump grids and talking to him while he is doing it. For example, take a grid that he has done before and add in a quiet GO verbal over each bar – and reward him for keeping bars up. You can tweak the game to make it easier if he struggles (quiet verbals, fewer verbals) or ramp up the energy if it is easier: Yelling the verbals haha! The dogs need to learn to multi-task by keeping the bars up while also hearing out verbals. I don’t get mad when they knock a bar when I am yelling, but I reward them a LOT when they keep bars up despite my yells LOL!
>>3) Switch Aways : I was pleasantly surprised as I thought this would be difficult.
But, Mookie only needed my opposite arm cue to turn away and take the next obstacle in his path in either directly reliably. Mookie already knows this 🙂 Mookie uses peripheral vision and can read my arm position and which arm I am using in an instant. Buddy needed both a verbal cue and an opposite arm cue to switch away reliably. Buddy is slower so I can get verbals out of my mouth for him.>>Good boys! I think you should add the verbal to Mookie as well, not just rely on the physical cue – for when you are simply not close enough for him to really see it. Courses are getting bigger and bigger so having the verbal cue attached will help for when he smokes you 🙂 Plus, the verbal will help differentiate the different opposite arm uses (check out the new games posted today about opposite arm use 🙂 )
>> When is the last day we can e-mail you for about week 4 ??
The last day is November 18th! Have fun at your trial this weekend, looking forward to the next update!
Tracy
