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Good morning!
Work gets in the way of the fun LOL!>>Will it be OK to still submit stuff for week one?
Yes, you can submit in any order.
>>With the wrapping game if I was to use food can I use something other than a bowl since in one class we are learning how to work without driving to the bowl that holds the cookies.>
Question: does the bowl with cookies have a marker cue, like ‘get it’ or something? If it does, you can use it here – say ‘get it’ then drop into the bowl.
If not – you can totally replace the bowl with anything that helps the pup see the treats: plastic lid targets, 2 pieces of paper towel, little plates, lotus balls, 2 manners minders LOL – anything at all. Or even just on the floor, as long as the pup can find them easily. We don’t stay with the bowls for very long, so anything you can think of will do.
Have fun!
TracyGood morning! I hope you are feeling better, that ER trip must have been scary!!!
>> So, lately, I’ve been working on getting distance a gamble foundations. I’ve been working on getting him to turn away from me (Switch) and go over an obstacle. I toss the reward to him and say “catch”. This would be correct? I have him running to a target where he stays to receive the reward. Now, if he were continuing to run and I threw the toy that would be “get it”, correct?>>
This helps us really define your markers. So on your switch, he turns away and runs to the target and waits there for the reward? Then yes, I think “catch” works nicely for that! If you wanted him to continue forward to a thrown reward – I agree, it would be a get it.
>>I really want Skye to get his reinforcement and connect with me instead of eat something. I think getting this into a loop will work. We do lots of loops, typically, it’s a CU pattern game where his connection/eye contact causes me to deliver his reinforcement somewhere. So, what do you think of do an obstacle, I toss his ball, he gets it, then connects with me, which causes me to ? I’m not sure…. What the rest of the loop would be.>>
Loops are always good and for some dogs, they are critical! What if he went to his target then the immediate reinforcement was back at you (my shhhhhh cue to chase the reward in my hand) which both reconnects him to you AND sets him up to face the A (antecedent) of the ABC loop? I have videos coming with more info on that tomorrow – and to loop a catch or get it, you will want to follow it with a reset marker:
Switch cue – correct behavior which includes target – catch – reset cue. Eye contact is not necessarily part of the criteria, but you will get it naturally. The reset cue reinforces the choice to get the cookie at the target (an easy choice, but still a good choice LOL!) and it also loops in a reflexive reconnection back to you.>With Flurry, I’m using catch for contact behavior.>
Yay! Perfect.
>>>I think with Flurry taking a jump when I’m standing next to it, maybe wrapping, will be good. She still has the issue of when we get to a jump at the same time, she refuses to take it. It’s better, but it still pops up. So the toy placement one I think would be good for her. She would have to ignore the lotus ball and go around the wing. I’ll get video tomorrow.>>
I agree, this will ask her to ignore the distraction of the reinforcement by doing the jump, then get the reinforcement 🙂 And we can get your hands moving too as distractions later on down the road.
Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>> Get it” to the Manners Minder….. He likes the MM but doesn’t LOVE it….dispenses the rewards too slowly for his liking so I “preplaced” some kibble so some was there when he arrived
Patience is a virtue haha hahahaha the pre-placed treats are fine as long as he doesn’t grab them without permission 🙂
In this video he seemed to like the MM well enough. You can make it more desirable as a reinforcement in 2 ways:
– mix in stinkier grosser treats 🙂 I mixed in freeze dried tripe for a while LOL!
– after he eats the MM treat, give him something he likes better. My Contraband is underwhelmed by the MM, so for a bit the loop was behavior – eat from the MM – frisbee. I also place a frisbee on top of the MM so he grabs the frisbee rather than eats the treats. The MM is a great big obvious object but we don’t have to use it for only boring-ish treats 🙂>>Would it make sense to do a few reps like this to start each DW session?
You could, he won’t be sad, and it warms up the value.
>> Also realized that I need to pay better attention to the order of the way things happen – cue Get It and then “click” the MM.>>
Yes – the order is important so we keep the value of the get it marker.
>> I’m using Katarina’s mat method and I’ve put my mat on top of a Hit It board. I finally decided that I was driving both he and I crazy with trying to see and reward good split rear foot hits, couldn’t consistently see them in time to reward well. So I put the mat on the Hit It Board and decided that if I heard the board to reward. It’s helped a lot!!!>>
Smart!!!!! It is indeed hard to see those fast feet!!! Just be careful that the vibration of the DW is not triggering the Hit It board beep, as it does with Hot Sauce LOL!!! I like being able to hear the beep as a secondary affirmation that he did, indeed, hit the yellow 🙂 And it hopes raise the success rate!
Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>> I’m guessing on the shaping exercise around the wing that I should stay in the same place and let Reilly figure that out. Is that right? >>
Yes – it is shaping, so he gets to offer behavior while you stand there and give feedback with reinforcement. Otherwise you end up cuing behavior which makes him more reliant on your than you will want.
>>Also, in that exercise could I use “snacks” for the marker word or should it be a word other than “snacks” I’m confused about that.>>
It depends on how you want to deliver the reinforcement. If you want to deliver the reinforcement from your stationary hand then yes – snacks. It both marks the correct behavior and tells him where to look for the reward. You won’t need a yes word, just the snacks word 🙂
>>>Today I took Reilly into the agility area twice and did the catch game with him and he would happily sit when cookies were being thrown back at him. I could move to either side of the jump and he would keep his stay. When I was on the opposite of the jump I could throw a treat, say catch and then ask him to sit and he sat down perfectly.>>
Wait, so he was sitting after the thrown cookie? I am confused LOL! Bear in mind that the catch cookie is also a release, so while he might choose to offer a sit in that situation, he doesn’t have to and it is not part of the criteria. It is just a lovely by-product. If you are getting a stay in any position and then reward with catch and he is then offering up a sit? Cool!
>>Is there a good way to use this game to help with his start line?
Yes – if he is happy and relaxed, then we are definitely on the right path! If he is offering a sit then cool, but we will take a stay in any position.
Great job here!!
TracyGood morning!
The sofa as home base is so funny! She remembers her early training LOL!
She did really well here. And I agree, she is a tugger!
The various markers are all looking good – one general thing is to try to say the marker with your hands & toy completely still… then move the toy. Easier said than done! When you’re running courses, your hands will be in motion the whole time but for now, you will want to try to be as clean as possible so the marker can predict the placement. It was hard to see your hands on all of this, but it looks like the word and hand movement might have been happening together rather than word-then-hand.
Her bring on the disc is looking really good indoors! You can tug with her when she brings it to you, so bringing it gets instantly reinforced (and you can let her win it, you don’t need to ask for the out on each rep). And her outs are also looking strong, so feel free to reward those instantly with the toy cue again or by whipping out a different toy or a cookie.Great job here!
TracyHi!
Considering this is a new concept for him, he was GREAT here! Ignoring the ball on the exit side of the wing was easy for him, well done. He was successful even when you tossed it there and that was harder for sure! Just be careful that your left hand doesn’t hang out in the cookie pocket – that tips him off to the process in a way that we cannot do in the trial ring, so you can have the left hand not doing any cookies movement til you are ready to actually deliver it.>> Sending him past the ball to wrap the wing proved to be too much to soon, so we will keep working on it.
Yes, he will get it – just gradually inch the ball over to the other side of the wing in small increments.
>>I’m also switching back and forth between food and the ball here, never a problem for him. What can be problematic is getting him to tug if he knows a ball is in play – something else to work on>>
You can isolate that skill by having the ball present, in the room, on a chair or table… and playing tug. Then pick up the ball, show him, put it back down, back to tug. And when he interacts with the tug: he can chase the ball, end of session (at the beginning stages :))
Then you can gradually extend your sessions to get more tugging in between the ball play. Ball play is high most favorite so we can reinforce more tugging with the ball play.
Nice work here!
TracyHi!
I think there were A LOT of great moments here and the little oopsies are ones that are particularly frustrating for you, and worth addressing for sure.
The remote reinforcement generally went well.>>When rewarding focus for moving away from toy, I’m guessing I shouldn’t get too far away?>>
I agree! The best moments were the short blasts, just one or two steps away. Those were great. When you got too far away, neither of you knew what to do 🙂 so for now stay close. And as you add distance (which also adds duration), you can add in interaction: talk to him and cue a trick, then mark and run back. Then 2 tricks… and so on 🙂 that will help it build.
>>He runs off with the toy and is trying to kill it.
He definitely ubers when things are unclear, so two ideas for you:
Plan each rep! And set a timer for the session to 90 seconds (don’t work 2 skills in one sessipn). You can even explain the next rep to him so he hears the planning lol! I don’t know if it will help him but it will for sure help you!And if he ubers… no worries, just call him back for a treat or another toy, and plan the next rep. It will keep success rate high so you can have a better overall session.
>>There’s also a moment where he runs off, I call him back. This happens often in training and it really really drives me insane.
That’s why I suggest planning short sessions – it happens when things are later in the session and/or not fully planned.
When you went right from remote reinforcement to the wing wraps, it was just not enough time to mentally reset and plan for both of you, so they should be distinct, highly planned sessions. He did well, but the little errors that drive you crazy are mainly planning errors and length of session errors.
>> My assumption is that he feels like my movement is towards the back door and he will either have to go inside or his sister will come out but I could be reading it incorrectly. This doesn’t happen in other locations-which reinforces my suspicion.>>
Maybe! But you can continue the game indoors. It doesn’t have to be the end 🙂 and when you are done, don’t just leave him because he rehearses that running off when that happens (like t the very end of the video).
>>I am trying to figure out a better way to end the session. I tried to throw the frisbee but because I had been previously using food and a tug, he didn’t want to switch.>>
Cookies, toys, on leash, go for a walk and sniff, then hang out in the house – all things that can help him want to come back and interact at the end and will also bubble over into trials nicely too!
>>There’s just so many pieces to this puzzle with him
I agree, reinforcement is a BIG puzzle!! I think they key for you is planning each and every rep, not freeforming any of it. The free form is where things go wrong! If he has a mat or station behavior, ask for it and reward it between each rep to plan and then loop him back in.
Let me know what you think!! Concentrate on all that went well and that is what we will build on 🙂
TracyHi! I don’t have a specific tug cue – the bite means grab from my hand and tug, the get it means go get it and tug, shhhhh means chase and tug, so tug us built into all of them and the markers are more about placement.
Good distraction list!!!! I’m excited to be able to use them!
TracyHi! This went really well!
The backside wraps looked great – really nice independence and he was great about ignoring the toy til cued. SUPER!!!
>> A couple of times Reilly didn’t pick up the toy but just ran for me, probably to get a treat (I needed treats to help get the toy out).
Actually… you were late with the get it – he was already past the toy. Good boy! So you can say get it as soon as you see his head turn in the correct direction so it is earlier and he won’t run past you.
>> Still struggling with toy release.
Keep working the reinforcement with treats, but have them less obvious – maybe in your pocket til he lets go, or in the hand that is not holding the toy, so we are beginning to fade them. He was pretty good about releasing here from what I can see but we want to keep the reinforcement rate very high.
>>He took to the shaping game fast. Hope I did this correctly.
yes, he did a great job! Question: what specifically is the marker you were using? I heard 4 of them: yes, yay. yeah, wow. LOL!! So if it is a cookie in your hand, use just one marker and be consistent (and move less, you were moving a lot so he was not always sure where to be).
>Another question on TSA game. Reilly does really well at all phases, but still doesn’t want to sit down right away. I can wait him out and he eventually sits and stays. I was wondering if when I ask for the sit if he wont do this right away should i back him up and try again or just continue to wait him out? He likes the game and loves racing out of the ring for the treat.
And one more question. Originally we used a pat on the leg with the word leg to ask for a lineup and sit. I’m worried I have poisoned this and wonder if I should use a different cue?>
Yes, it is possible that the line up is poisoned and also it is possible that the sit cue is poisoned – the high latency (meaning taking forever to move into the sit) is an indicator of that. So… don’t ask fo any specific position. Just wait til he is still then move away. It can be a sit, a down, a stand, doesn’t matter as long as he is still. He can choose the position! It might end up being a stand and that is fine. For example, when my Hot Sauce is REALLY stimulated, I don’t bother asking for a sit because she will struggle to process it. I just let her offer being stationary in any position, then I use a stay cue and walk away. She often ends up choosing the stand then then does not move at all til the release. It is much better for both of us – successful and not frustrating. I think Riley might need to pick his position at this point, as long as he does not move. Sit, down, stand… whatever he likes 🙂
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>>First: Continue to establish a strong “Yours” with toys on our Top 5 list but start to add in a rep with his leash?
Yes, leash as the toy and not attached to him (put duct tape over the clasp so he doesn’t bite the metal by accident. Introduce the leash separately as as a regular toy.
>>Second: At the same time (or maybe I should wait until the Yours is a little stronger?) work through the steps in Building Value for Toys. My first question is what would you suggest for a Reinforcement Procedure? The behavior I ultimately think I want is for him to grab his leash on a Yours cue and tug with it as we move around (eventually walk into the ring to the first jump) So I think I need my reinforcement procedure to be something not involving Yours – is that right? One of his most favorite things is to chase either a Holey Roller or one of his tugs – Get it…. could I use one of those? My other thought was to use something similiar to what you did in the video ….jump, tunnel, Yours with one of his favorite toys, but that would have the “yours” as part of the Reinforcement Procedure, so not sure that would be a good choice? He already is quite happy doing this with any of the tug toys on our list. Thoughts?>>
Remind me: is ‘yours’ the cue for getting it from your hand (like my bite) or is it a thrown reward? Also, the leash does not need to have only one word associated with it – it can be any word as the marker to interact with it, based on where it is located or presented.
You can install the leash as a fun toy using a get it and throwing it in the middle of a sequence, then when he gets it, throw a ball or go to a better toy. That is similar to the value building procedure I did with the ball, and I think it will make it easier if the leash is dead on the ground or in your hand. Plus, if you toss it, it is moving and that is more fun for him, I think 🙂 Or one of the moving procedures inserted into the sequence.And then when he loves loves loves playing with the leash, you can add in the playing with it in your hand (“yours”, I think) and then add it to the remote reinforcement procedures so he knows how to ignore it while he runs, then be cued to play with it at the end.
let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>>So for adding the verbal it’s the same principal as it’s been for a long time now, add the word when you are 99% sure that you’re going to get the desired behavior. So much is changing in training these days that I guess I wanted to make sure that I hadn’t missed something in this regard.>>
Yes, I have not heard of any better way to do it and if we don’t just jump in, then we get paralyzed and never add the verbal LOL!
>>With the Dogwalk…. I would then first establish the reinforcement procedure of Get It – and be sure that if I cue Get it that he’s always going to drive the MM, right?>>
Yes – you will want the MM to be high enough in value that he goes to it. I also click the MM so he hears the gears grinding or the beep after the get it.
>>Then I’ll add in the Verbal, so if I was working on Left it would be Left, Get it?
Yes, but with a pretty wide separation because the left verbal comes pretty early (I repeat it a few times) then you have to wait to see if he actually hits while turning left – then when he hits, you go to ‘get it’. If you cue the get it before he hits, he might skip the yellow entirely 🙂
T
Hi!
heck yeah, I think this is working! How does this arm position feel? She didn’t seem to consider it to be a threadle at all on any rep. Her only questions where she had errors were because you peeled away laterally, too early, because she was committing to the backside. On all of those oopsies (I think there were 4 of them) you were moving diagonally away from the backside and she had questions when you were pretty far across the bar. But then compare your line when you remained on a parallel path for longer, at :55 and 1:12 and also at 2:00 and the last rep when you were waaaay far across the bar – she got it. A good comparison point is the rep at 1:51 where she did not get it because you were peeling away, then right after it at 2:00 when you were parallel to her path (but all the way across the bar). So for now – keep that parallel path going even when you are so far away! And now you can also add in some balance with cuing the front side, then cuing the backside on the next rep.
Great job here!!!!
TracyHe looked super, you must be excited!!!!! Yes, one more step to the jump in the SS and one less right verbal, otherwise, perfect 🙂 Yay! And I agree, he SMOKED the big line at the end!
Hi!
The donut is pretty huge for puppies and not very stable, so I like that you added in other things to help get her hind end going. Perfect! She was much more secure (and not as compressed) with the Bosu there and was happily offering all four feet. NICE! IYou can ask for a position change – when her hind end is on the Bosu, ask her to go from a stand to a sit (all 4 on the Bosu) then back to a stand (front feet on the donut) That is a great challenge! I don’t think she is ready to do it yet on with her back feet on the donut though.
Only one other suggestion – let her hop off after the release before yo throw the toy – in her rush to get the toy, she is not exactly thinking about being coordinated about dismounting the setup, so we don’t want her to scatter her limbs everywhere getting off of these LOL!
Plank – do you have a 2nd one? You can put 2 side by side for her to turn around on, then fade the 2nd one> I think she can probably turn around on the single one with a little more experience and a slow turn cue hand helping her turn.
On this set up, you can also be careful on the release so she moves before you move: say break, let her step off, then whip out the toy, You were saying ti and moving and bringing the toy out, so she went directly into GIMME TOY TOY mode and wasn’t thinking about her body as much 🙂
On your bigger plank, you can elevate it even more and you can also do some recalls across it.
Backing up:
Nice job keeping your reinforcement low so she also kept her head nice and low! Since we are obsessing on mechanics… you are moving your hand/shoulders forward then saying back then clicking. See if you can flip it so the cue comes before you lean forward/move your hand. You might need to either be sitting down or less leaned when you are bent over, so you can be stationary, say the cue, then move the hand. I am not sure if the hand cue is designed to be what elicits the behavior for her, or if you are early with your hand motion for the treat throws… but the hand motion is getting the behavior with the form we like, so I think if we acknowledge that it is the cue, we can fade it: your hand can be stationary, say the cue, then move the hand, then c/t. And then we progressively reduce the hand movement so she can do it on a verbal only. Right now the hand motion is eliciting the behavior and also keeping her head low, so I want to keep it around!!>>Iat least that were true yesterday).
This statement ^ right here sums up puppy training 1000%! HA!
>>Throwing the hollee roller was way too much. She brought it back and got all stalky, standing and staring at me to throw it again. I quit that session and when I came back to it, she was still sticky and not wanting to move. >>
Interesting and great info! Remind me -will she tug with the hollee roller?
>>This morning, I went back to a regular tug toy. And I realized something else – I have been delivering the toy only on my right, so after the first reward there, she did not want to go to my left to that bowl. So I had to do some remedial work. >>
Darn smart dogs, pointing out our patterns. LOL! But again, good info.
>>So I seem to be going backwards in terms of progress on this one.
Not backwards at all in terms of sorting out her reinforcement procedures/strategies! That is far more important than the wing wrapping stuff (that is the easy part). You can take the hollee roller and install a different game with them – rather than throw away fro you, throw them behind you: when she brings the first one, throw the next one behind you or in the opposite direction so she has to come towards you to get it. And when she brings hollee roller #1 back, you can ask her to tug on HR #2 then you throw it behind you – creating a loop that drives her in with no sticky stalky stuff, so you can then use the HR more. Do this away from any specific training, just to play around with the reinforcement.
It sounds like Dellin is just a master at immediately telling you about how placement reinforcement affects behavior (thanks, Dellin LOL!!!!!) so it is great learning to sort it out now 🙂
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>> My concern with only using the toy is that I don’t want to rely on using a higher arousal level to override any concerns she has with the motion. Have had too many BC’s go through teeter issues of various severity (Rayven being the worst) and taking a lot of time to work through them, when it would have been better for them to be comfortable with the motion without their arousal overriding any concerns until it doesn’t anymore.>>
I look at it differently – make a nice pairing with something she loves early on, then insert food and more thoughtfulness a little later on. Let her offer for the toy – she jumps on, gets a bit of tug, you release for a treat, she jumps on, gets a bit of tug, and so on. That is a nice balance of high value but also NOT overarousal. Food is not yet high enough in value here to stand a chance in case she is worried about it, so go with what is high value. Otherwise, she might have an arousal change because she is a little worried – and that is when we see overarousal. If she is aroused enough that the distraction of the movement fades away, you won’t see overarousal (Yerkes-Dodson bell curve for sure!)
>> but probably will have trouble beating her even with a push back unless the toy is close to us.
Feel free to cheat and distract her with a cookie throw (or a fake cookie throw LOL!)
>Separate drive ahead from retrieve. I may need to make the toy a fair bit longer to make sure I can get it when she beats me.
Or make it so big that it is hard to run away with since she is small. When my Pap, Crusher, was 16 weeks old, she weighed 3 lbs so I used a toy that weight 5 lbs. I bet if you used a 5 lbs toy (it was just a bunch tied together) then she would not be as quick to run off with it, buying you tie to get into the tugging 🙂
Tracy
Thanks
Lori
