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Hi –
>>Should my body position be the same for serp and threadle? The only difference being my verbal? I’m picturing this scenario in the middle of a course and see myself traveling across the plane of the jump looking the same to her. In slo mo she seems to get the difference, but when we go live and she speeds up will she get it?>>That is the difficulty of the threadle – the trained verbal understanding needs to override motion in some situations. The serp body posture is a bit more ‘frozen’ and with threadles, when using the same arm, the arm swings back more (like pulling open a door). The positional cue is slightly different (serp is across the bar, threadle is near the entry wing) but ideally the dog can threadle even when you are ahead. And that is why I also use the outside arm on the threadles – because there are moments when I think the physical cues are too similar for the current level of verbal understanding, so I use the outside arm to help it look different.
Let me know what you think!
TGood morning!
>> Typically, I’m only tested on my lefts and rights when I have my annual eye exam>>
OMG that made me laugh so hard! LOL!!! You did fine adding the verbals and I think you will find them super useful with his speed. In fact, from the verbal side of things, it went really well! You had success, added some challenge, yay! He was not perfect yet, but we don’t want perfect on this – highly successful is great because then he can learn the difference. The hardest part was figuring out how to set him up for that success and that went well. We can use this set up to answer two of his questions here:
– how to read front side versus back side if you were in a bit of a neutral position
– how to not touch the barsSo on the front versus back – he would sometimes go to the backside when you were a little center of the bar. You can add a proofing game for it! Start in that same neutral spot, and sometimes say left or right (whichever direction takes him to the front of the bar and into the minny pinny) and sometimes say your backside cue! Since he asked the question, we can add a game to clarify it 🙂 If he needs help, you can add the tiniest bit of body cue.
On the no-touching of the bars – he definitely was trying to sort his feet! So you can squish the 2 outer wings in a little closer, so the distances between the jumps are smaller to encourage bouncing. You can toss rewards (cookies are easiest) into the gaps between the bars and also reward when he does all 3 – if he does not touch the bars or the wing. You can be very stationary, and pretty close (that was when he did his best work) and also pretty quiet – and when he is super successful with that, you can add more motion and verbals. If he touches the bar or wing – no reward (praise but then reset and try again). If he touches the bars twice, make it easier – less motion, tossing a reward into the gap, etc. I think that it will help him multi-task the jumping and processing verbals, which is actually really difficult.
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>>although a little side note, don’t title your Youtube video “naked play” or you will immediately attract unwanted comments – had to fix that fast!!>>
hahaha! Yes, I had that on my mind! And I also have the video unlisted so random people can’t see them or don’t find the naked word 🙂
He did really well here! On the volume dial game, your tricks are really good! He was perfect here because it is such a comfy environment, so to prep for harder places you can move the treats more – when you reward him, have him chase your cookie hand for a couple of steps before you deliver it to him. It makes the cookie very toy-like and is useful for working through distractions when using food. You can also try these with toys – I use a combination of both, depending on the dog and the situation.
And nice job easing into the naked play, it was a pretty seamless transition so he was perfect. Yesssss! That becomes the beginning of your transition to the start line for trials and I think he did really well!!!Your Ready word seemed to be catching the ear of Sole too, I think LOL! I heard a sad song from another room 🙂 Too funny! Loading the word is really easy at home and he was quite perfect – so you can distract him and also wait til he is ‘otherwise engaged’ – I use the ready word when the dogs are snoozing, hanging out, chewing bones, playing with each other, torturing the cat, sniffing around in the yard, etc. So it is not in a ‘training’ environment but more in every day moments at home. With apologies to the husband – because when he is trying to relax on the couch and the dogs are relaxed… that is my favorite time to use the magic word and get them nuts then run to another room to dole out rewards LOL!
And I also do the ready word in random environments – for example, I will bring a dog with me to the store, get them out of the car on a leash – play this game, reward, back in the car. LOL!! These little field trips provide good exposure to new environments in these crazy times.
You can also take the volume dial and naked play games to different places – road trips, to the club, anyplace where you will want to engage him or where you think he might encounter distractions. For example, if you are at the club and someone else is working a dog… that is the PERFECT time for the volume dial because it becomes very trial-like!
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning! Sorry to hear about all the snow, it was a doozy of a storm! I am adding a few more games for in the house tomorrow too – Mother Nature is going to be mean to use for a few more weeks 🙂
She did really well with the ready word here 🙂 If the word is already a bit charged, you will see the dogs looking for a game, like she was 🙂 It was so funny!!! You can wait for her to offer eye contact or a sit, then reward – offering the tunnel was hysterical!! Or, when she engages, you can ask for a stay or a trick in front of something distracting, especially when you are able to get out and about in new places. I also use this magic word when the dog is engaged in some other activity at home – snoozing, playing with one of the other dogs, in the backyard, etc – throwing the ball was great because it was a great way to distract her and re-engage her. I also play this game when the pup gets out of the car in a new place (on leash) – to start working on getting immediate focus in new places. I have a few short ‘road trips’ planned with the pups so they learn to engage in new environments with the magic word. By ‘road trip’, I mean 20 minutes down the road to the store LOL!
Great job here! Stay warm!
TracyGood morning!
The wind was BRUTAL here the last few days but it seems calmer now? It blew away the snow, though, so I am happy LOL!
>>I realize that it must seem like I’m ignoring your feedback, but I promise that your voice is in my head as I do this,>>
I believe it! It is hard to do all the things with puppies – every element has to be just about perfect because they simply can’t help us out a lot. It is much easier with adult dogs! And hopefully my voice in your head is not using too many cuss words haha 🙂
So I watched it from the perspective of figuring out what he was sometimes spot on and why he sometimes had questions. A couple of ideas for you:
>>I still felt like he was checking his bank account and worrying about the cookies. This is why I tried breaking it down and rewarding with cookies on the line for a couple of reps.>>
It is always good to reward on the line and not from your hand! One place to definitely toss rewards is out past the barrel. With all the rewards coming between the barrels, he might lose a little value on committing to the them.
I don’t think he was worrying about his cookies, though, I was seeing other patterns from his questions:
I think the frozen moments mainly have to do with shoulder position. Yes, your eyes were on him and you could see him – but with your dog side shoulder closed forward, I don’t think he saw enough of the connection to feel solid about making a commitment decision. The closed shoulder blocks his view of the connection, especially when he was looking for where to go next.
What was happening to close the shoulder forward was that your dog-side arm was perpendicular to your body and sometimes cuing ahead of your body when he was still behind you and not back enough towards him. Pups often need a very exaggerated connection so changing the arm position helps dramatically. The closed-shoulder moments were most obvious at :12 and 1:22 where he had big questions, and there but not as obvious at 1:12, 1:42 and 1:54 (he was a little sticky on those but not as frozen). Compare that to 2:22 as he exits the barrel on your left – your shoulder is open back to him, very direct eye contact, zero questions (which is especially noteworthy but it was late in the session and that is when we would see him more interested in cookies and more mentally fatigued, but that was one of his best reps).So, a couple of ideas for the exaggerated arm back/open shoulder position:
– point your hand back and down towards his nose and lock your elbow.
– as you do that, show him the reward (cookie, toy, or air cookie LOL!) across your body with the opposite arm. The opposite arm is touching your body, across your belly, and hand on your opposite hip.
– look at his eyes, like you were.When you do those two things, especially the reward-across-the-body, your dog-side shoulder stays waaaay open and the dog drives in to the new side because your connection is very clear (and you do reward from the opposite arm). And he doesn’t need the dog-side arm to move to indicate the barrel out ahead until he is passing you so you can move forward with that position.
Since he was asking questions about exiting the barrel and coming to the new side, you can do this on one barrel for now – because being able to move more will also be compelling so he can make a decision (even if it is the ‘wrong’ side, it is still a good decision that gets rewarded :)) So do one barrel, FC, move away with the connection as above, and reward as he drives through to the new side. Adding the 2nd barrel means less moving for now and also the temptation to cue it – but it will be easy to add it back when the driving to the new side is less sticky.
You were generally quite good about the GTF off his line LOL! And the when you were on his line, like at 1:58 – he let you know LOL! At that moment, you were asking him to take it but your right leg was on his line, blocking the view of the barrel – so he went that general direction but did not know what, exactly, you wanted him to take. Puppies are very honest LOL! As he gets more experienced, he will push you out of the way. Note the difference when on that last rep, for example, he could see the barrels fully and he went to them immediately. Yay!
Nice work! Let me know if the shoulder ideas make sense!
Tracy
Good morning! He is doing really well here! Only a little chewing hahaha! I used tiny grated bits of cheese with my Paps, he might like that too.
But even with chewing, he made great choices here! He is showing a definite preference for the right turn, and that is normal. So keeping the cone in closer for now for both sides if the way to go – the distance gets added when you get to the sending, and it is pretty easy. The next step here would be to move the bowls a little further back, maybe just behind your feet, by your heels – so when he gets his reward, he can turn all the way around and head directly back to the cone.
You can also do this training entirely with toys too! The goal is to build commitment so the other thing you can do, now that you are standing, is take this outside 🙂 Bowls, cone, cookies/toys, puppy – on the road!
Great job here! Let me know if that suggestions make sense 🙂
TracyGood morning! I agree, she was moving! Yay! This looks really good, so I have some ideas to build on it more. If you get a chance to do this with more room at Bonnie’s place, great! She was looking ahead really nicely – there is nothing to look forward to after the jump, so no worries if she looks back at you a little for now.
You don’t need her to get much further away, but there are some variations to add to this for her. 3 things that I can think of for you to mix in:– You can add in having her come to your other side and *not* take the jump. Here is what I mean: when she is on your right and on the line to the jump and you are walking away from the camera – she gets rewarded for taking the jump because it is on her line. Then as you walk back towards the camera, you can ask her to come to your right side – meaning, you are between her and the jump and then she gets rewarded for staying on your right and not going behind you to take the jump. Let me know if that makes sense, or if I need more coffee 🙂
add in calling her past on the other side– you can do more reps of going all the way to the cookie with he, let her eat it – then as you move forward, let her drive ahead of you. You did a little of that and she did really well, so feel free to add more!
– And since she is driving to the jump, you can add your “go” verbal. As soon as you know she is going to begin moving to the jump, you can say go to name the behavior.
Let me know if that makes sense! Great job here!
TracyHi! Lots of great stuff here, I am glad you are having fun!!!
Threadle versus serp versus tunnel – really nice! She is almost perfect on these so we can build it up into more craziness 🙂
First, a couple of little details to consider:
Keep your serp and threadle lines within an arm’s reach of the jump – you were a little further away on some of the threadles, and the position on both should be basically the same and very close to the jump.
At :49 on the serp – she did come in on the serp jump then when you moved grabbed the tunnel, I would reward her (I think you didn’t?) It looks like she was reading your motion and produced a REALLY tight serp hahahaha Bonus points for the turn to the tunnel.She had some questions on the threadle when you moved into position: At 1:25 – Your verbal ‘in in’ started before the arm movement, and you were in serp position so she took the front side. At 1:36 – the arm cue had better timing but she still took the front. When you didn’t move, she got it from the far position. So, I think her question was about your position when you were moving – it was basically the same as serp position (which is GOOD, we just need to convince her of it :)). So to help convince her: move more slowly, start your threadle arm before you release, and release just after you get past the entry wing – let’s see if that helps her read the difference.
The other thing you can add which will help her question too – standing still in threadle position (which is near the wing further from the tunnel) – start changing her start angle. So if the tunnel is noon and she was set up at 6 o’clock approx, try to move her to 5 o’clock, 4 o’clock, 3 o’clock (where she will be squarely facing the wrong side of the bar!) and show her the 3 difference cues – do to standing still at first and then add motion there too.
Backside slices: these are also looking great!
A couple of little ideas: be sure to start moving up the line on the parallel path for a couple of steps before you release with the push cue – this is especially important when you are further across the bar. At 3:15, for example, you lead out really far away (yay!) but stood still, released & started moving so she was locked onto the front side (no yay haha)
When you moved a little and then released with the push cue, she did much better! And the added connection at 3:28 really helped when you were all the way across the bar.Her default commitment to the jump after arriving at the backside looks fabulous! She seemed to have no questions on that one. It didn’t seem to matter to her when you added the wing or more running – really good! So you can definitely start at the wing and add lots of running and more of a German turn, pushing her to the backside from far enough across the bar that for the German, you and she are on the takeoff side at the same time.
And no distractions with the tunnel there – good girl!!
>>I tried using the contact board for discrim and she just doesn’t get running away from me on it. In the training I did on it, I was lateral or ahead. >>
Ah, yes, that is something she would need to know separately from the game, so you can definitely play with that! It will help your contacts overall too. Instead of the plank, you can use a mat or wobble board or crate, anything that has a verbal attached.
>>I’m wondering though about the plank to table that I’ll be using for entries? I could put that next to tunnel and work the discrim that way.>>
Absolutely! That would work beautifully!
>>What should they do at the top of the table? jump off for treat? place reward there for them to stop?>>
Anything that involves staying on the table is good – wait for you to deliver the treat, drive to an empty food bowl target, or you can even put a manners minder on the table! We don’t want to encourage the dog to jump off, though, that would be bad LOL!!!
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>(Enzo’s AKC debut this weekend – very excited.+)>
I am excited too!! I will be stalking Facebook for updates 🙂 Have a blast!
This session went really well! I was chuckling during the first part of the video – you had a very musical rhythm of the left and right verbals coinciding with his front feet landing! As you send him into it, you can say left/right more than once on the way to the first jump so he can be sure – when you get quiet, he questions if quiet means ‘wrong’ or quiet means ‘ keep going, you’ve got it’. Which means one way to affirm he is correct is to keep saying the verbal, and if he is incorrect, turn it off and call him back immediately so he doesn’t get too far along.
>>even turning away from me.
Yes – that was a great part of the session, getting him comfortable with turning away. Most dogs are NOT happy to turn away from us, and you really set him up for success on that!! Nice!
>> He started out looking very sharp in the neutral position but I think that was luck.
I don’t think it was luck, I think he was actively trying to solve the puzzle. It was really cool to see him work through it, even more exciting when he would get it right! True, it was clearly an ‘early’ sessions in the perfection in that he was not perfect but he was getting it! Yes, there was some moments where you could see his thought bubble “Oh, the OTHER right” but plenty of moments from the neutral position where it looks liked he was actively thinking it through!
>> Next time I’ll creep up on it more slowly. I also think this training session was too long (too many mistakes) and he needed more help. >>
I would say next session can be a more gradually shift to the most neutral position. You can help him by being a tiny bit over on each side or lining him up in a very slightly less neutral position. Another way to help from the most centered neutral position is the very tiniest of tiny hand cues or finger flicks after you say the verbal to help. These little bits of help are fine for now, because they are really easy to fade.
>>I am a bit surprised since he is spot-on with spinning left and right.>>>>
The visual distraction of the 3 jumps makes it harder, but I am confident he will figure it out.
Great job here!
TracyHi! Lots of great stuff here!!
Minny Pinny video 1:
This is going well! I totally see what you mean about cutting in between the cone and the jump! LOL!! To help her out, you can vary the reward placement by tossing the cookie out to the landing spot of the middle jump on these (or just resetting and starting again like you did when she didn’t get it). Because she is so small, you can put more emphasis on driving out to that middle jump of the pinwheel by throwing the reward out there, rather than rewarding her for driving back to you.Oh yes, you did have left and right backwards on the section towards the end, so remember to take a moment and pick the word – I totally have done that too and it always happens when I am not actively thinking about it. Oops! The dogs are very forgiving 🙂 You fixed it for the last couple of reps and she was perfect 🙂
You can move to the proofing version now 🙂Serp – threadle – tunnel – nice work here too! The serps look good! I think the key for her on the serps is when you drop your shoulder back a little, she was perfect on all of those (more below on that). On the threadle reps – your position was great on these! Try not to rotate your feet at all on the threadles, it is the upper body that does all the work while your feet move forward to the tunnel (plus the verbal – you were using OK on these, so you can add in a threadle verbal like “close” or “in in”). You had some reps where you had very little rotation and she did well – so keep going with that, fading out the foot rotation and using just upper body and verbal to bring her in to the threadle side. At 2:47, there was too much rotation, it looked like a FC and she missed the jump (she is very quick!) so the less rotation, the easier it will be 🙂
Back to the serps for a moment (versus the tunnel): When you are moving, the arm dropping back totally helps the serps – when she went to the tunnel by accident at 1:31 and 2:17 3:33, your shoulder was forward, as it was when you cued the tunnel. Compare it to 2:34 and 3:37 when you had the little drop back of the shoulder and she was perfect. So even though she is little and you are tall, she totally sees and reads that shoulder movement – good girl! And the tunnel sends were great.
Jump – tunnel: this was a mentally challenging session for her (which is good, a little steam coming out of her ears is a good thing, she got lots of rewards!). The jump in this context worked nicely! The bigger lines from the jump to the tunnel needed a little more physical support – on the jump sends to start, you got that basically on verbals and she did really well!!!
On the first couple of tunnel sends – your feet were rotated so she was not sure until you leaned in – that little bit of physical support made a big difference for her. She doesn’t always need your feet to be straight, but the little bit of leaning really helps her see the line! That will be useful for gamble classes!When you switched sides, the tunnel entry became a rear cross – so she questioned it and had the same question at 3:15. That little bit of leaning in and the Manners Minder really helped her sort it out though! That is a good way to convince her to leave you for the rear crosses!
Then yes – it was really interesting how she lost a little interest in the MM – I wonder if she was put off by the beeping? Even when reinforcement was clearly available, she said ‘no thanks’ to it. I am curious to know how she felt about it on the next session, if you used it again?
On the big line from the jump to the other end of the tunnel: When you added the lean/step to the tunnel after the jump, she got it! Yay! The Go verbal also seemed effective there – but I think it mainly was a question the physical cue and not so much the verbal for now (but you can fade the physical cue soon too). That little bit of leaning (versus being stationary or upright) really make s a big difference for her, so you can add that to the verbals for the next few sessions – then fade it out to get it going with verbals only. But on course at a trial, you can plan to use the leaning to support her in any place where you don’t want to run in to the line.
Backside slices – I looked at it from the perspective of 4 different skills: getting her to the backside, getting her to take the jump when she arrived at the backside, the countermotion on the exits, and the FC and BC on the landing side back to the tunnel. Here are some ideas, sorry if I am skipping around a little 🙂
Getting her to go to the backside – overall she did well! The first couple on the flat before the cone got added were good! It was harder with the cone and that is where we can see what she is comfy with and what she needs help with. When you were closer to the jump it was easier for her, and when you leaned in a little too 🙂 so think of it more as a game for staying in motion and not sending. Moving up the line so she feels the support of the motion really helps. One other thing that will help – as she comes around the cone and you give her the backside cue, look at her more and at the jump wing less. When you looked forward, she sees your shoulders rotate to the front of the bar and she tends to come in and not stay out to the backside. You had this going really nicely in the 2nd half of the video. Then towards the end, there was just a little too much looking ahead (at 5:39 for example), so added more connection will smooth it out.Taking the jump when she arrives at the backside. This was the hardest part for her! Ideally, you would move through with your feet facing the tunnel, but she didn’t know to take the jump when you did that. At 2:32 and 252 and 5:24, for example, your footwork and line were PERFECT but she did not take the jump on those. When you rotated your feet she came in perfectly every time. That is effective when you have an easier line, but it will cause trouble when you are trying to get ahead (like at 5:24). So… we will train her 🙂 As soon as her little nose arrives at the backside wing, drop the reward in behind you on the landing side (but don’t rotate your feet) so she gets use to coming around the wing and looking towards the bar to find the cookies. You can use a treat hugger or lotus ball if you think a more obvious reinforcement will help her too. The other thing you can do is to angle the jump wing on the side closer to the tunnel out (towards the camera, in this case) to give her more of a visual for the bar as she comes around the entry wing – the bar will be more ‘right there’. When she gets more understanding of taking the bar, you can flatten it out to the original position.
Countermotion – this one is also good for developing the default to taking the jump! She had a couple of questions mainly because she was set up a little too much on the other side of the jump, you can have her sitting on the takeoff side for these reps. When she did come to the backside, you did get lots of nice commitment rewards in! Yay! far away so had trouble knowing which side of the bar you wanted – she can be set up on the front side
The FCs and BCs on the landing side: these looked awesome! You got her nicely to the backside and your rotations (you mainly did FCs) were spot on, and she easily found the line to the tunnel.
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
I heard that noise, I thought he was barking but maybe your yard is haunted!! EEEK!!!!The session went well here; I think this is a really good set up for him. He took the first bunch of reps to sort out where to put all his feet and how to navigate it! You can also use this as a bending grid for jump work the 2 outer wings tweaked in closer to the center, so he bounces while bending. It has nothing to do with verbals, but it is a good game LOL!! He got better and better with his footwork but still is sorting it out – he was changing it a bit and bonus points for going through the wing LOL!
The verbal part went really well – you did exactly what this was designed to do: slap on the left and right verbals 🙂 You can keep saying it as he is heading towards jump 3, so he turns left/right on the 3rd jump too – but then reward him on that 90 degree angle of exit rather than straight.
And you are going to laugh – don’t get too exciting when you praise and offer the reward if he is still in the little grid – he gets so happy that he stops jumping and runs over the bars. LOL! So I think you can solve that by adding the last left/right and rewarding after he finishes the turn on jump 3 (then you can be totally exciting :))
Great job! Onwards to the proofing!
TracyHi!
Still trying to picture it, do you mean something like this:nn
u e
T LI-I
I-I
I-ISo, 3 jumps facing more of the center of the tunnel and you want either the T entry or the L entry? If so, then yes, I think left or right verbals (plus whatever physical cues you can do) would help and then when the dog is turned, you can indicate the tunnel. I also use a ‘get out’ cue for when the dog has to move away from me in this situation. Let me know if I am picturing it right?
Hi~ My brain might be tired, but I am having trouble picturing this 🙂 Are the jumps parallel to the entry or perpendicular?
In general, if it is a somewhat collected left/right turn even if it is not a full 90 degree, then left or right is fine. If it is a gradual turn and not really collected, a name call is good. Depends on the dog! And if it is a tunnel discrimination where the dog’s line is towards the ‘wrong’ end of the tunnel, then I use a separate verbal to get the correct tunnel entry.Tracy
Hi! I agree – great job, Ruby! She definitely liked this game LOL!! I watched both of the clips back-to-back and she was great in both. You added nice distance too on the 2nd one – did you put a marker on the floor for yourself? Clever!!!! Since she as perfect both with you close and you further away, we can now add more challenge:
– move the wing a little further from the wall, so she can go around the outside if she feels the need to make a mistake. I don’t think it will happen, but sometimes herding dogs like to go around the other side so I want to make sure she has the option to learn that going around the jump on the outside will not get rewards 🙂– I don’t think you need to click this anymore. When you see her looking at the jump and moving towards it (like she was here) then you can just “yes” her and throw the cookie. That gets the cookie out there before she looks at you.
– and definitely she is ready for more motion now. Starting close like you were in the first video, be walking back and forth the whole time. That means she has to ignore your motion and find the jump when you are moving or when you are ahead of her or behind her. I think she will have no trouble when you are close to the jump – so start nice and close, but then add distance if she finds it easy 🙂 Can she still find it when you are a few feet away AND moving up and back on the line? (Probably, I am guessing she will be great LOL!)
Let me know if that makes sense. Great job here!
Tracy
