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Hi! They are somewhat interchangeable 🙂 the forced front is more natural, meaning the dog can read it easily as a physical cue and doesn’t need as much training. The in cue (threadle) is more of a trained cue, meaning the dog has to ignore the Handler’s turn of body and come to the hand and verbal cue. I teach the dog the concept of coming to the backside first with the forced front, then when they are good at that, I move to the in cue because it is easier at that point. Also the throwback exit of the forced front is really useful so I like to show that to the dogs too 🙂
TracyGood morning! These look great!
I agree, you have the BC 2-3 looking beautiful! Nice timing and connection. On the first rep, you stopped a bit too suddenly on the wrap at 5, so she had a question. The transition was much smoother on the 2nd rep so she got it really nicely, the turn looked good!
On the next sequence – wrapping to the right looked good too. I bet you can rotate sooner and leave sooner so it is tighter and you can get up the next line sooner.
The first wrap to the left was a send – that looked great! You did a spin on the next rep – the rotation was really good but you were a little late finishing it, so she had to a waot a little after she landed from the next cue. You can lead out less and move it into more, which should allow you to start it sooner, after she lands from 1 (and therefore finish it sooner too :))
Great job on these! Overall, they looked smooth, fast and connected!
TracyGood morning!
Great job here – this rehearsal is so important for all of us and it was really helpful to see you work through it! You said you were not good at multi-tasking and I disagree: you are QUITE good at it! Running a young, super fast dog changes things and the main thing is: more connection needed 🙂 It gets easier as she gets more experienced, but the only real thing to change is the connection. Here are specifics:
Sequence 1:
The bones of the walk through look good – the plan is solid! So now it is about execution (which is always harder with younger dogs because they are incredibly literal and require us to be so perfect!)
I think the big area that will help is toe connection behind you more, back to where she would be. This includes on the lead outs, after crosses and and 6-7. Your pace was good, your running lines were good, your verbals were good – more connection needed. On the final walk through, you were looking forward very quickly after the release and crosses
On the run video – good job adding in the memorizing sequence! It turns out it was important because you needed to remember all the details so that was a helpful rehearsal.
The BC in the wrong spot was rehearsed here at 2:30 on the 2nd video. And in the previous video you rehearsed it between 4-5. So that is what happened to get it in the wrong spot, just a rehearsal error.
1st error was connection – you can reward her especially because you said oopsie to her (which is a ‘you’re wrong’ marker) and it was your error, not hers 🙂
At 3:40 you did the BC 3-4 as you rehearsed then caught yourself and fixed the line – she pulled the bar on 4 because of it but. I still like that you tried to save it 🙂
Disconnection 10-11 so she went out wide and a little deceleration as she is approaching 10 will help – nice fix there!
Run 2: SO NICE!!! So connected 🙂 All the good lines and handling! No worries if the turns were not perfectly tight, she is young and fast so I think she will get tighter as she learns without losing her speed.
At the very end you mentioned getting that run as your first run – the key will be connection in the walk through. I think your walk through pace was actually faster than what she needed in the run, which is good! Being faster in the walk through will make your run easier 🙂 but add in the connection so you can ‘see’ your invisible dog every step of the way, emphasizing connection while she is behind you in your plans and especially after crosses – connect and stay connected, rather than connect then look head.
And looking for decel spots will help too, like 10-11.Sequence 2:
The serps and backsides here are hard handling skills and hard dog skills 🙂 MOre connection will help for sure, especially on the 7-8-9-10 section and on the serp at the end
On the run – the opening looked good! Nice blind after the tunnel at :24 to get 6-7!
On the exit of the FC on 7 – you were really connecting but also backing up, so when she landed you moved forward again and that pushed her to the backside of 8The serp on the 9 jump is partially handling, you can open up your shoulders and connection a little more there… but mainly a dog training moment 🙂 She might need a revisit of that proofing game we did in the 2nd MaxPup class with the serp jump right next to a tunnel – your motion is stimulating and the tunnel is stimulating so she doesn’t ‘see’ the serp jump. When you stopped your motion, she got it – but you should be able to keep moving like you did there originally because that was correct.
When you restarted that line at 1:45, you had a GREAT line 7-8-9 and she read it perfectly (yuo helped her on 9 but decelerating so definitely train to be Abel to stay in motion using that proofing game. On the 3rd rep at 3:16, you hesitated then stepped forward again, so she took the backside at 8 based on motion. You were more careful in your motion at 3:51 and 5:08 but your line at 1:45 was my favorite time through that section 🙂
On the serp at the end at 1:49 and 3:56 – it is a connection moment. I am sensing a theme LOL!! You had good connection to bring her in on the 2nd to last jump but then looked forward to the last jump, which does not show her the line. So, as she is landing from the serp jump, intensify the connection to her eyes so that you can change her line to go out to the last jump. At 5:19 you had the connection there and she took the last jump! You were a little far from it but the connection was the key 🙂
So the overall thing on both of these courses is more connection – in the walk through specifically, really rehearse it til you can ‘see’ your invisible Yowza 🙂 Then in the run, keep reminding yourself to look for her eyes. That will make the biggest difference, I think, and will allow you to run your planned lines.
The only “training” moment was the backside serp on 9 on the 2nd course – yes you can connect more there but with the tempting tunnel out there and you moving with a lot of speed, she still needs to learn to take the jump as part of the backside cue and not run past it 🙂 The proofing game will help – you did it a while back so you can revisit it now and add more speed 🙂Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi again!
>> We got the off course dog walk and he didn’t really recover from that>>
That dog walk has high value, so if it is not in sequence, always block it off with wings or something so it is not in play and you don’t have to think about it. And if he ends up on it and it was on his line… reward it.
On the walk through – You had some good speed and more connection in the walk through here. Nice! Yes, I want more more more because I am greedy like that but I am excited to see you doing it more and more too!
On the run: yes the BC side change was on time on the first run but the connection was not strong enough to override the motion: instead of running straight forward to the #4 tunnel, your line of motion was a bit sideways and it looked just like what your line would be if you wanted that end of the tunnel.
I would have rewarded it. There is a most definite correlation between the “that was wrong, no real reward” stop and him shutting down, which is what happened here. There error was at :08 and I *think* he got a cookie at :31 after he started sniffing, which is years later in dog years. And remember, since the dog determines what is reinforcement – passive delivery of a toy or treat is not deemed valuable reinforcement to Fever – active engagement and praise during reinforcement delivery is high value for him. So, even if you think he was wrong, reward with passion and excitement.Plus, listening to the background, he might be sensitive when Carrie is yelling at Roulez to be quiet which happened a couple of times when he was on course (I know my dogs would be sensitive to someone yelling). For example, he was already slowing down and at 1:16 as he went by, she yelled “HEY! STOP!” And he got slower and dropped the bar, and you also got slower – he got a quiet cookie for that moment. So it was a combination of things that you will want to protect against.
So – just reward as if you wanted that off course tunnel, then figure out what to change for the next rep. At :49, there is a big difference in your connection and your line was MUCH better plus you were a little closer to the BC jump so he got it with no questions 🙂 Connections are critical to blinds especially when there is an off course nearby and that blind really looked good!
I am not sure he saw the DW as an off course or he was seeking higher value – but again – go with it, reward reward reward then figure out why it happened (or bang head on wall for not blocking it off LOL)
The main thing to protect here is that his conditioned emotional response to being in the ring and on course is super positive like a bank account full of cash! And the stops and starts make big withdrawals which slows him down and reduces the value of being out there – it is not an operant thing, it is a reflexive/classical thing which is why the rewards have to come fast and furious because it is more about keeping the situation paired with good things than it is about getting the courses correct. If he has that positive CER, then you can do sequencing easily! But if the CER goes negative (and negative doesn’t mean you are mean, it could very well mean there is not enough reinforcement) then it is harder to work through sequencing.
I think that is what happened here – the history of stops and starts pops up very quickly when there is the moment of either no reward or very passive reward (which migh signify “that was not correct but here ya go”) so his bank account gets overdrawn quickly. So let’s make a lifestyle of pumping up the CER so that one little blooper becomes no biggie because he the environment is rich with reinforcement and his feelings towards it are conditioned to be super positive.
Nice work on these! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi again!
Walk through – You had lots of rehearsal of pointing forward here and we want more rehearsal of looking back to him. Yes, I continue to bug you LOL!! Note how you were looking at the obstacles as you ran the 2 jumps closest to the camera here – that is good rehearsal of connection because you were using the jumps as markers to where the dog would be, rather than looking ahead of where he would be. Yay! Do more of that!!!
And you had some speed in the walk through at the end! Yay! It was a good fast line there, now to do it for the full sequence 🙂
>> Interestingly, I made a HUGE effort in my walk thru to not do a spin at the tunnel
Probably because you walked that section and didn’t *run* that section in the walk through. Walking it is different mechanics than running it so when you have a spot that is difficult, be extra sure to work it up to running.
On the run – not surprisingly, the fast line 3-4-5 that you walked with connection and speed went brilliantly! Yessssss!
And good job on the opening to the #2 tunnel and getting connection at the end! It all went really well here 🙂
You didn’t need to do it again to time it, as Carrie asked -the slice lines you chose were always going to be faster than the cross to the wrap LOL! Also – when wanting to try something different, did you give it a proper walk through? That is especially important for Fever, who really has a dislike for any potential start and stop. By doing the cross without rehearsal, you were in the way and he dropped the bar – you kept going and all, but it is still a rehearsal we don’t want on course so if you want to try something s a different way, re-walk it for real.Nice job here, onwards to sequence 3!
Good morning!
Walk through – the lines of the walk through are looking better and better each time you practice doing them! Yay!! I will continue to bug you to run the walk through once or twice till it is smooth – that will open up moments where you will be late turning, like 4-5 and 7-8. Also, I will bug you about looking back behind you to the obstacles to rehearse connection to the dog. You were looking forward the whole time here, so on the next walk throughs be sure to remind yourself to look back to the obstacle he would be taking at every moment.
Run – Lots of good moments here! The bones of it looked good, nice job 1-2 because that is a lot harder than it looks! The wideness issues were lack of rehearsal of the timing of the turns there (4-5 and7-8) – he needs to see you turning and calling the left when he lands from 3, but yo were moving straight – adding more speed to your walk through and looking back to 3 will help you isolate those timing moments. That last jump is hard because they see the tunnel very clearly: if your turn is late, they jump long on 7 and they don’t have a chance to find 8. That is what happened here. He wasn’t scoping the tunnel, he was going with the info he had 🙂
For the #3 backside slice, since it is a known hard thing for him and he almost always fails… if you see it on a course or sequence, set up that very first rep to be a success by dropping the toy or isolating it and training it before you start. In other words – get success first so you don’t get failure first, to keep thing in the happy reinforcing flow and not get into the start and stop rhythm.Onwards to sequence 2!
Hi there, hope you had a great vacation! She looked great here!
Seq 1 looked great! Easy peasy, great connection and really fast!
Seq 2: On the opening, I agree that the blind will be better than the FC here. When you did the BC, you were too far over towards 2 so she thought you wanted her to go relatively straight – try to run towards 3 for the BC and that will set up a nice turn. Then you’ll have more time to make a BIG connection to her eyes with your arm back to help get her to find 3. At :16 and :22, yo can see your were too far away from 3 and looking ahead/pointing ahead, and compare it to the connection at :32 when she got it – that was really nice!
The Lead Out Push was good at :41 – I think you can be further across 2 before you release her, to get it even tighter.
Nice collection on the FC wrap at :55! To tighten the exit to the tunnel more, you can make more eye contact on the exit with your dog side arm back. If you bring your arm forward, it blocks connection a little and she goes wider. You had your arm back more at the very end at 1:07 and it looked great! And the dig dig dig helped too.
Great job on these! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi! If the bar on the ground helped you nail it – perfect! I think we have a better grasp of the timing than when your BC was a youngster plus also we have trained the younger dogs a little differently, make these fancy moves easier 🙂
T
Hi!
He looks great, Diana!!! So fast but also such a great turning dog. Yay!!At the beginning: Jump to wing looked great.
Wing to jump to wing was harder because of his speed – at :10 and :16 you were late turning your shoulders so he was correct to take the tunnel based on the line he saw.At :24 your shoulder turn was great – clear and timely – so he turned really well!! You didn’t need the opposite arm there, just the shoulder turn at that timing.
At :35 and :41 he was correct to take the tunnel – the post turns showed him that line to the tunnel, so off he went to the tunnel.
At :45 you had more of a lateral motion away and he got it. Yay!
Jump to tunnel was perfect 🙂
When you did wing to jump at :57, you did a quick head turn where you looked forward. He read that as a blind cross cue and went to your right side there, good boy! The good news is that he watches all of the handling (this is also the bad news because it means you have to be careful not to look ahead).
Note how you stayed connected at 1:01 and 1:08 and 1:13 and he stayed on your left side – he leapt up a little but I think he felt it was weird that you were going past a perfectly delicious tunnel LOL! He had it all sorted out at 1:21 and 1:26 and was perfect after that, smooth and super fast.
Good shoulder turn got him to the wing and then the verbal kept him out of the tunnel When you wanted the other wing at 1:09 and 1:17 and 1:46 and 1:51 more connection will get it – you were looking forward and pointing , which pulled him in to the inside of the wing and not the outside because it turned your shoulders to the inside of the wing. This connection is not only for when yo are ahead, but also wen you are behind like at 2:18 – look at the back of his head because he can still see the connection 🙂
You nailed it at 1:57 – you got a little further ahead, kept your arm down and looked at him strongly: click/treat for you! Nice!! You were pushing hard so almost pushed him ff it but he got the correct side. The next rep was not as connected but the rep at 2:11 was also super connected and lovely!!One note about the sends to the wing on the far side of the blue tunnel – be sure to also use your dog-side leg on the send. When your dog side leg is back and you are only using your arm, he didn’t really go to the wing like at 2:15. So step forward with the dog side leg for the send to get him committing without questions.
Great job on the big sequences all the way aroun the setup!! He is so fast!! And I think he grabbed the table on the first one LOL!!! It was hard to outrun him to get him to the jump closest to the camera, so – run faster. LOL! But since if you run faster, he is also going to run faster: I think you can play with layering the blue tunnel! Start at the jump and send him to the wing and keep sending him out to the wing while you stay on the jump side of the tunnel! That will be a useful skill, partially because of his speed and partially because layering is getting really fashionable in course design again.
Great job on these! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
This went well!!!
About the weaves
Running into the BC to the weaves works well, but be closer to the weaves and less between the uprights of 2 as you do the BC – she thought you wanted her to go straight over 2 so the turn was wide.
Then you can keep her there on your left side and let her weave away from you but you can take one or two more steps towards the 4 jump so she knows which way to turn when she exits the weaves. The other option is to keep her on your right and hang back 1-2, sending her to the entry and serping the exit, then doing a blind to get her to your left for 4 – that will help her know which way to turn on the exit for sure!On this course, you can play with a wrap to the inside on 6 – it is shorter yardage and might be faster because she is so quick through the wraps. And it will set up a better line on the exit of the 7 tunnel, she had to wait for info there at :37 and 1:09 as you noted. The slice works well too but to get the great turn on the exit, you would need to send to the backside from further away then really trust her commitment to accelerate away – that will get you further past the tunnel entry, which will show her the tunnel exit turn sooner.
An idea for you: Rather than rear cross the 11 tunnel (which puts you behind and gets too much looking at you when she exits 11 and also made you a little late for the BC on the landing of 14)- 2 options:
– you can send her away to 8-9-10 and get a blind cross between 10-11! You did this on the 2nd run at 1:12 but you were a little late – send her away more and you will get there even sooner. But that BC requires you to either blind again 11-12, or call her to rear cross it.
– you can stay close to 8 and send to 9-10 to serp across the exit of the 11 tunnel to push her on your left to 12 – 13, which also puts you in a good spot for 14! I think I like this option better: nice control of the lines without needing to outrun her LOL!
The rest looked strong! Great job here! Let me know if the ideas makes sense 🙂
TracyHi! Hooray for being released to do fun stuff!!
Front side lines looked good, they are easy for him – when he is fully released to accelerate you can throw a toy but for now, a calm cookie is good 🙂
It took him a moment to remember the threadle wrap but then he got it at the beginning. Yay!
The backside push looked good and the threadle slice looked REALLY good.
On the backside pushes, try to connect more directly to his eyes – that will point your shoulders/chest more to the backside line. You were softer in the connection and that was turning your shoulders to the front side of the jump so he was not going to the backside with you a bit further away from the backside entry wing.On the threadle wraps, he did best when you added the tiniest bit of deceleration to help solidify that it was a wrap – and then it was easy to keep moving through the slice. When you kept moving through the wrap, he tended to slice like at 2:27 and 2:46. Compare that to the little decel at 2:52 and 3:06 where he wrapped – the decel was very minor but really helped, so keep it for now then you can fade it later as he gets more experienced 🙂
Great job here!! You must be happy that he gets to do “stuff” again!
TracyHi! This is going well 🙂
He was great with the pattern game at the very beginning with the treats. Then he was great with the volume dial game, I found it really informative – leaving the toy on the ground was hard and the chin rests might have been a little too low on the volume dial? He was looking at the toy then looking around a little on your start line, so I think when the toy goes on the ground, you can ask for wilder tricks – turn the volume up! Then he can ignore the distractions and have eyes only for you and the game. Of course, the different environments will change things so it is good to practice turning the volume to different levels LOL!
You can also try that pattern game with 2 toys – instead of a treat on the ground, you can cue him t take the toy in one hand. Then an out cue, then when he offers engagement – cue him to grab the toy in the other hand. He might find this SUPER fun and very engaging in a tight trial setting!Great job experimenting here! Do you have any access to classes/seminars/trials coming up to be able to play around with this?
TracyThat is great, having someone be the toy-tosser! And yes, give her lots of that experience because the payoff will be awesome: you’ll be able to run run run and she will commit beautifully 🙂
Tracy
Hi! Nice work on these!
Go reps looked good!
On the backside push slices, great job on the toy placement – you can add in more serpy exits and some Countermotion too.
When you add countermotion, throw the reward sooner to reward his decision to go to the backside and emphasize the bar as something to look at. For example on the circle wrap at :53, as soon as he turns his head to the jump as you move forward, throw the toy back to the landing as you keep moving forward. You were earlier at 104 and he did better !On the threadle reps:
>> forgot the aspects of the threadle toy placement. Those came from my hand.
Yes, the placement for the wraps and the slices will really help him differentiate where to look and turn to.
>>I think this biggest aspect for me to work to improve would be my body work for threadles. I just don’t feel like I’m ever as smooth with them as I am with backsides.>>
I think the biggest difference is that threadles are trained skills, mainly, and should not really rely on the physical cues that much. Yes, the physical cues support the verbals but I think you were mainly trying to sort out the physical cues and you don’t need to emphasize those as much.
>>For threadle slices I struggle so much to get into position with my body and am stiff… I’m like I’m a little teapot. Here are my arms… let me set my feet.
I left the wrap versus slice at the end. You can see I thought I was switching back to the wrap, but my body position is more consistent with the slice.
Interestingly, I just watched a video by Kayl on threadle wraps and she uses a different arm set. I wonder if that would help me/him? >>I think that it is not so much about arm set as it is about line of motion and verbal cues. There are a bunch of different arm styles you can use (I don’t know what Kayl is using lately) but we want it to be generally easy for the handler because the dog is learning the verbal cues 🙂
So on the session, you can get closer to the wing of the threadle jump especially the wraps. How does he do on the wing alone with the threadle wraps? He might need to work the wings with motion before you add the bars in. That way he will learn the skill when you are lateral or ahead and it will be easier for you both! And placement of reward will help too 🙂
On the threadle slices, I think you were trying to converge and help him out by moving across the bar – try to only turn your feet to the bar for now, and not try to move a lot to it – it was pushing him to the other side a bit too much and that made it harder (like at 2:54). And when you do the threadle wraps, don’t turn your feet at all – the physical cue is just a little flip with the hands – foot turning looks too much like the slice so it might make it harder.
>>The other thing that’s challenging in general is the spacing for threadle son AKC.
>>I think the unfair spacing in AKC really plays a role in that. It’s not super fair to them when the jumps are essential 8 feet apart for a threadle in a straight line.I agree, a lot of the threadles you’ll see on Premier courses, for example, are soooo tight! One thing that will help is a turn cue on the jump *before* the threadle jump! So on those crazy tight threadles, I will cue a wrap exit on the jump before and then do the threadle cue for the threadle jump. It makes it so much easier!
Nice work here! Let em know what you think!
TracyGood morning! These looked really good!
Sequence 1 –
Really nice opening! Then Ti said “hurry up, mom!!” And smoked you on the 4-5-6 line. He might be quiet, but he was hustling LOL!The Blind definitely worked better when you had a backside at 6 at :55 (it is a front side on the course map :)) The FC just takes too long for any of us to slow down, rotate, then move out of it.
And Ti’s feedback really helped you nail it with Josie! Really nice! He told you two important things: hurry up! And do the blind! And that is why it went so well with Josie 🙂
Course 2:
On the #2 tunnel – a spin is a turn cue and she reads it, so on the first course the spin worked really well on the#2 tunnel because it turned her to face the line to 3. On this course, though, it is a straight line to 3 so the spin turned her and she had to go back to get 3. You can see her head come towards you then back out at 1:34. So, do a post turn here! It is a little less comfy than a spin but will set a better line.On the 5-6 line to get the backside-backside there, be sure to connect more as she lands from 5 at 1:39 to get the backside push. You softened the connection for a moment so she thought you wanted the front. You did get her back out to the back but it made you late for the exit of 6 and a wide turn on the tunnel exit.
great job on the opening of sequence 3!!! That tunnel threadle moment 3-4 is no joke: it is a speed line where they are looking right at the wrong end of the tunnel and you got it really nicely!!!!
As she exits the 3 tunnel, bear in the mind that the threadle there creates a rear cross on the tunnel entry – so you will want to connect a lot on the tunnel exit and drive her to 4 so she doesn’t zig zag in and out like she did at 2:04.On the ending line at 2:06 – the FC there was quick and pretty timely but then you were blocking her line a bit so as she came around to the takeoff side of the backside, you were standing where she needed to be which contributed to her running around it. MUCH better on the 2nd time through there, you were out of the way so she was able to take the jump.
On your ‘whoa’ for the tunnel exit, add in a little more turning of your feet before she enters and then the run will be perfect.
Great job on these!!!
Tracy
