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Good morning!
The target fading is going really well!! The first rep was weird with him kind of jumping off, but almost all of the rest was good – I think he finds it important to have that one moment of break between the line up and slam cue so he can prepare himself – the only errors were when you did it all at once. And you can totally lure him to line up in a perpendicular position, otherwise he doesn’t use his hind end as well to leap on when he is on your left side to start here (and also with the Bang Game).
Bang game: He is super confident, which is great! Also, he is stopping at the beginning of the target not *on* the target. So the 2 choices are to revisit him putting his feet *on* it, such as reminding him he can scratch at it – or fade the target to the very edge of the board so he puts his feet at the edge of the target which will be at the edge of he board 🙂 I vote for fading it to the very edge because I think the other games will also encourage him to get to the very edge of the board.
Elevator game warm up:
On that first rep – I think your cookie hand was high and moving over his head, so he was focusing on that and came off the board – on the 2nd rep, you got the cookie hand out of the way – same with the next elevator reps, and he was perfectly fine 🙂 So just be careful about your hand being a cookie helicopter above his head LOL! On the elevator game, he paws the target which gets him very close to the edge. Perfect! You can make the target more narrow here so it is closer to the edge too.Crazy elevator went really well! He seemed perfectly fine with this new element, lots of confidence. He didn’t have a ton of speed because he was starting very close to the board. So for the next session, start with the regular elevator warm up, then for crazy elevator: set him a couple of metres away from the board to see how he does with more speed. Then add a wing to wrap around! I am confident he will be fine with all of that 🙂 I am not worried about speed, he is going to be VERY fast so it is more a matter of helping him understand the weight shift at the end of the board.
I know the rules about teeters have recently changed in NZ – is this the full height of the teeter? It looks low to me but it might be the camera perspective.
Great job here!!!! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Good morning!
Ah yes, the joys of when plans go sideways haha!
It is amazing how internal arousal can change the behavior! But also a good window into ways we can plan for training. And also a good example of why I work so much on just a random plank – to get all of the oopsies out on a ‘meaningless’ thing so the actual obstacle is only associated with joyous correctness LOL!!So – looking at the 2nd session, first: this is more normal for him: fast and accurate, no problem, plus I think you were more prepared for it by dialing back some of the excitement and motion coming into it. The first session was more of a session about variables: as soon as you see he is not in the right state, you can noodle around with changing variables to get him into the right state: stuff like switching to food, adding in chin rests as part of the reset, etc. It is a good opportunity to work through something that is guaranteed to happen at trials – he is a bit over-aroused and we need to know how to center that arousal. It means that the target fading goes out the window but that is a great opportunity to work on the other stuff.
For example, when my Voodoo gets very stimulated, I get him back to center in terms of arousal with a routine of barking at me (howling, mainly haha), a precision paw wave trick, and tugging in the leash. We have to figure that out for each dog.And one other thing you can add, which will come in very handy:
using the success of the 2nd session here, start off your next session the same way… then stimulate him more 🙂 Since he did really well with the more centered arousal, and since he might end up needed to self-center (is that a word, even?) at trials… I do a LOT of stimulating the dogs and then doing simple elements of the training to teach them to do it even when fully aroused. That is why they all bark on cue, because I can use it as a stimulator. And wild tugging gets it going too 🙂 That will all help the end result on the teeter 🙂Nice job here! Let me know what you think 🙂
TracyGood morning!
Good job here on both!!
Fading the target on the bang game is going really well. He was kind of ‘chill’ at home so you can ramp him up now before each session, that will help get rid of extra salad moments LOL!
2 little details – when he is on your left line him up more parallel to the board and less perpendicular to it, so he doesn’t have to turn to leap on: it is more of a straight down approach like when you were doing when he was on your right.And to get the leap right onto the end, try not to have any moving starts at this stage: always start right next to the very end of the board, getting him a little wild 🙂 and that can build up the explosiveness to the end position (and also gives him an extra moment to think about driving to it).
Elevator Game – great idea to have the Toppl at the ready to move away from the really loud reset of the board! That is a noisy board indeed! He did really well on the elevator game, and it was a good warm up for the next level.
Crazy elevator game – this was a great intro in a new place! He seemed confident running up the board on all the reps – not a lot of speed from the stay but that was probably because it was the first couple of reps and it is hard to sprint up a board coming from a stay position. But that is fine, we mainly wanted him to see what the game was about and not go flying off the end 🙂
But then he got a LOT more speed coming up the board from the wing wrap! YAY!!!
At 2:25, note him looking for the target and starting to move to it during the countdown, even before you dropped the board. Nice!! So the next steps are to keep on adding your motion after the drop, and to also start closer to the wing so you are running as he is approaching the board.
You asked in one of the other threads about the teeter verbal – feel free to add it here when he is exiting the wing wrap! So it would be:
cue the wing, say your teeter cue, catch the board, reward, countdown, target cue, drop the board reward 🙂Great job here!
TracyHi!
Yes, she can totally have more outdoor sessions with toys and without needing too bring them back or train 🙂 I have a ‘go for a run’ cue which means ‘go have a party of one’ LOL!!!
And for the other stuff – yes, sounds like developing the loop of toy play will be really helpful! And just doing it with the loop of play, exchange, play, exchange will get it started – then that loop can be installed into training other things too 🙂
TracyHi! Glad you are having fun with this game, it is one of our proofing class games 🙂 He is doing well! Yes, the motion is hard! You can have the target in place to help him out as you build up to running (I think the target is faded here). When you can run, it will be easy to fade the target again.
As with the elevator game, he is sometimes offering a 2on 2off, probably because of the rewards being out ahead a lot. He did best when you did not have the cookie target out ahead here towards the end of the session. So try rewarding in position like you did here, no cookie holder out ahead and the target on the board…with you jogging the whole time now 🙂
Let me know how it goes!! Nice work!
TracyGood morning! He looks great here on the crazy elevator game! Fast and happy! Your mechanics look really good too. No worries about the time he tried to go without you – try to stay calm when he does that LOL!!! My dogs all have tried it too, I take it as sign that they are enjoying the teeter 🙂
He is sometimes stepping into 2on 2off before getting back into 4on. It is not a major concern but I believe it is because his weight is shifted a little forward due to the rewards coming out ahead on so many reps. So, to help him shift back and lower his head a little, you can mix in the going back and rewarding him in position by placing the cookie right on the end of the board, or using your ‘catch’ cue and throwing the reward back behind him. Mixing that in will help him shift back to balance out all of the reinforcement after the release, which will help remind him to ideally hold 4on without the heartbeat of 2on 2off 🙂If he is happy with that, you can move the teeter to in front of the tunnel and play crazy elevator from the tunnel!
Great job!!!
TracyGood morning!
I did some thinking about this overnight… and I think aI have a tweak that can help him get the down while the board is in the air. Watching his elevator game on the 2nd video, I think he believe the down should happen after the board hits the ground. MOre on that below 🙂The Mountain Climbers look great – that was a good refresher session for the crazy elevator game. He is actually downing pretty quickly… right after he looks to see if there is a cookie on the target LOL! Understandable… he did have about a million cookies there early on. But no need to visit this game again, it becomes the crazy elevator game shortly.
So on the elevator game here: he totally thinks is it ride it down and when the board hits the ground, go into the down. So, a tweak in the order of festivities to help him understand that we want him to down as soon as he arrives at the end of the board:
Yes, use the target here for this – a big, obvious target (no need to fade it on the elevator game until after he is running the full teeter).
And try this:
Hold the board
Ask him to hop on (don’t reward)
Wait for him to offer a down (then reward once)
Move the cookie hand away (don’t leave it over his head, that is causing him to look up at you)
Then start the countdown 3-2-1
Then spot then drop the board. He should remain in the down the whole time – big rewards.Start this super low so it is easy for him to offer the down without you having to ask for it (be patient at first :)) and also to get him comfy with the down on a board that is up in the air and super unstable (the board is very stable when he is the down down on the mountain climbers)
No need to do anything else other than elevator game with the changed up order, installing the down a lot sooner. The goal is that the stimulus for moving into the down is arrival at the end of the board and NOT end of the board hitting the ground.
When he can do that with the board relatively low, then we can add height and the crazy elevator game – that will come easily 🙂let me know if that makes sense! Have a great weekend!
TracyGood morning!
I agree, the red target made a massive difference for him! Really strong session here. It looks like he was moving to the target position and only really looking at you *after* arriving, which is perfectly fine as that will help him know where to go next :))
EXCELLENT job being patient and letting him sort it out when he stopped on the board and looked at you – it is hard for the dogs to drive past us when we are stationary and you were great about letting him sort it out. It made the next reps even better! Super!!!
>> he real challenge this time was moving into place. As soon as I got within a certain distance of the teeter, Cowboy would freeze and stare (must have been talking to the Border Collie!)>>
Do you mean when you were moving him by the tab? It looked like a little bit of opposition reflex maybe? He might not be used to being moved by the tab, so you can play with a different transition back to the start:
After the release, reward, then have him ‘heel’ (loosely haha) on the side you want to start him on for the next rep, earning LOTS of cookies for moving with you back to the start position and not trying to start without you 🙂 Then when you arrive back to the start spot – you can take the tab, deliver one more cookie, get ready for the send into position. Let me know if that makes sense.For the next session: the red target is a winner, so keep using it 🙂 And, add in your motion: cue the target position and then keep moving (slowly at first) until he hits and holds position – your motion should be steady, no decel, and should continue for 3 or more steps after he gets into position and you are sure he stops (so he is not reading any subtle decel cues). If walking is no problem for a few reps, you can add in more walking then jogging and so on 🙂
Great job here!
TracyGood morning! It is so cool to be able to train this in new places and also in front of crowds 🙂 He did really well! I think he naturally does a great job of controlling his internal state, that is pretty unusual for a youngster 🙂
Looking at these sessions, a couple of ideas for you:
One small detail that can make a big difference since we want his head low: throw your reward lower: think bowling rather than underhand pitching. The rewards are a little high so his head is coming up. If he is expecting them low and on the ground, he will drop his head even more.On the first reps: at this stage, let’s consistently set him up for success on that first rep – partially to help him find the entry successfully, partially to create the positive conditioned response to the weaves: if he is successful on the first rep, he will have more of a YAY response to the weaves and not a hmmmm….response. So you can set up success with an easier entry and less motion to counter any of the other variables.
Speaking of variables – now that he is basically weaving for real, you must become a master of the variable dial 🙂 Misses/errors still count as reps, so if we are going to do 10 reps of 6 poles (which is the same as 5 full sets of 12, which is a lot!) and 4 are misses… we are not looking for 10 successes plus 4 misses for 14 total – but we are looking at 10 total so that would be a 60% success rate. I do a lot of weave pole math at this point in the class LOL! So on the first session, he had 13 attempts with 4 misses (depending on how the rep where he stopped before the entry gets counted), which is 70% success rate and a total of 6 full sets of 12. So we can get the success rate higher (we are shooting for 90 or so) with fewer reps by reducing the variables – new location is a biggie, so the first few reps (where dogs tend to fail most) should have reduced variables in terms of your speed and the angel of entry.
On the 2nd session, he had 8 reps (which is a really good # in a session) and was at 75% success. Both of the misses were variable-related: for example, new people doing the wave nearby and you were running hard. So when you get an audience doing the wave LOL resist temptation to also run – dial back that variable so he is successful.
It is like a ping pong game of back and forth with variables: environment serves up a big variable change? You volley with reducing one of the other variables 🙂 And I totally agree that he was faster for sure with the audience! And I love that! And that is why the weaves were harder too 🙂 As as you work through each session, you should be monitoring the variables and constantly making little adjustments. It will become second nature and it is VERY reinforcing because the little buggers really blossom in their weaving, and we do fewer reps overall too 🙂
When I started obsessing on the weave math and variables with my 3 youngsters as the poles got tight: boom! Suddenly they could all weave. Not a coincidence hahaha! So now that we are getting real striding, I have gone full on into weave math obsessing for everyone 🙂 Let me know if that makes sense! I think he is doing great and is *thisclose* to the weaves being fully closed 🙂
Great job here! Hopefully there is more opportunity for weaving in front of a crowd LOL!
TracyGood morning! Nice session here: speed AND accuracy, happy transitions into the sends without the biting of the momma, no distractedness (is that a word?) even with the noisy ducks! Yay! He got his straight line entries and some angles too (you can totally mix in harder angles because that puts you way ahead, which is a good challenge for him :))
I totally agree that he is still in that middle area between running and striding. So try tightening them more! When I was getting striding with CB on the channels, I did one rep, then looked the video. Then tightened more – then looked at the video. I kept doing that til found the ‘sweet spot’ for the striding. One thing that will also help for the striding is to video from the head-on spot so he is weaving straight towards the camera (yes, I have nailed the camera with the toy throw a few times haha). You’ll have a much better view of his mechanics if you do that.
So try moving them all in a tiny bit and do some easy entries, and see what he does! I feel that it is probably only another inch or so then we have the swim striding 🙂
And he has multiple sessions in a row that we fast and super accurate, so it is fine if he has some questions as we add striding 🙂
Great job! Keep me updated about his sweet spot!
TracyHi! Good job on this session! He did well in a new place and also you did a really good job on each start after the reward: I felt like he knew when to start and it was very clear for each rep!
A couple of ideas for you:
>>Like all of the other places, he headed straight for theManners Minder and ignored the weave poles. Like all of the other places, I broke down the set-up and rebuilt it as he gained confidence.>>
For the next new place, start several steps easier so that first rep is successful, rather than get the failure and then back track. It is early enough in the training that it is OK if he has not generalized the hard stuff yet 🙂 You might not need to back track all the way to poles 3-4 being as open, but if that is what gets success? Perfect!
Watching the session as a whole… one thing stands out about when he was successful versus when he was not: motion! When you were stationary or not moving that fast, he was much more successful compared to when you were moving faster or running. At this stage of training, I think less emphasis on getting the poles straight will be important so you can add in being able to run run run!
So on 4 poles, I recommend opening them up to poles 1-2 straight and poles 3-4 being at 1&7 if he is successful there and do all reps in the session with you moving fast. If he is asking questions/having misses – don’t slow your motion to help 🙂 Instead, open the poles up to wherever he can be 90% successful or better with you running (and adding the other handling challenges too).For the 6 poles – no need to work those for now until he can do 4 poles with you running. The reason I recommend leaving them for now is that he was able to go through them, but at a lower rate of success than we like (70-ish%) and also on the reps where he was accurate, his striding was not comfortable and he was pattering more often than bouncing. So I think it is too early for him to see 6 poles for now in new places, but it won’t be long before he can see them anywhere.
So for the next sessions – focusing on adding your motion with slightly open 4 poles should take priority. I would try for at least 2 full sessions like that, to get into the 90% success range with bounce striding and different entries while you take off and run, rear cross, etc.
When we have that, it will be onwards to 6 poles but probably with poles 5-6 a little open to start, to maintain the striding while you run.
He did not seem distracted or bothered at all when you went to the lotus ball instead of the MM!! Nice!!!! He was still looking ahead really nicely as if the MM was the focal point.
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>>This is totally foreign to us so I was really supporting with that outside arm. Took a couple tries but I think we got some understanding by the end of the session. Do you use this same “out” for distance gamble sends or do you have a different word/handling for that?>>
Yes, the outside arm can be weird at first – some dogs let us fade it and go on just a verbal, but some dogs prefer that we use it as part of the cue. I use it anywhere I want to shift the dog away from me to pick up a line and then the dog should remain on that parallel line. It works nicely on ‘normal’ courses so I can get to my next position, and is also VERY useful for gambles/sends! It is specific to the lead change away (and is not a left or right turn) so if the gamble/send doesn’t have that, I use the other directionals. Here is some examples of it in sequence:
https://youtu.be/3aLyVpqMPEs?t=15Hi there! This is going really well too! It is a hard behavior because it is pretty unnatural for most dogs: they don’t want to move away from us like that.
All of the chase the momma moments looked great, she never considered leaving you for the jump or grabbing the tunnel behind you, she was always on the line. Perfect!!
The get out cues are going really well, considering they are very new!!! On the reps where you emphasized your outside arm pointing to the far wing of the jump, she got it every time. You can see that on your first ‘get out’ rep as well as at 1:07 and 1:20. At :47 you were a little too understated in the cue (it is a big cue :)) Same at 2:30, but the other reps on that side looked good – so be big with the cue, lots of connection and arm pointing. It will get easier when she is more experienced with it, but I think you are off to a great start!
There were a couple of moments here that allow us to continue talking about your question from the previous session:
>Do you think this is a “likes being correct” sort of thing or just expects rewards and is confused when she doesn’t get them? It’s always taken her a moment when she is wrong to get back on track to whatever I’m
Asking of her.>She had 2 errors here that deflated her, and she did what I think you were describing.
The first one was at 2:02 on the send to the wing: you were not that connected on the send and it ended up looking like a blind cross cue… so she ended up guessing on the wing wrap and turned to her left. That makes sense, because it looked like your shoulders were pointing there and she is also a lefty from what we can tell. Good choice, Arty!
You said “oh no ma’am” (or something) and faced her, movement stopping – she deflated (from her perspective, that was the response to the info she saw, so she was not actually incorrect). You gave her a cookie for the sit at 2:13 but that was a solid 10 second later, which adds to the negative punishment of the moment.So what to do instead? In that type of oopsie moment, it is a very very high likelihood that the dog was correct and the handler was not 🙂 So, I almost always reward the dog’s effort right away (“Good girl! Here’s a cookie while I figure out why that happened, nice effort and commitment!”) while I assess if I was doing something wrong and, even if I thought I was ok, I will improve my cue for the next rep (and you totally gave a better cue at 2:15!! and she nailed it).
Now, I won’t reward right away if I have given a specific directional verbal – for example, if I say “right” and the dog turns left. In that case, I am still pretty sure it was human error 🙂 so I happily call the dog, immediately send the dog again with a better cue, and immediately reward. But you did not have your specific verbal (unless I couldn’t hear it) so it would have been fine to give her a reward then reset.
If I go back and look at the video later and decide that my cues were great and the dog was just choosing wrong… no worries, because the extra reward will not have a big impact on the learning in a bad way. It tells me that I need to clarify the behavior but the extra rewards keep the session and the training in general feeling really good and free of frustration 🙂 The extra punishment will have an impact, though – it can create frustration/stress which will manifest as fight (dogs that bark at or bite the handlers), flight (sniffing, zooming, running off to visit) or freeze (standing still, staring, slowing down… which is what Arty does). I have had dogs that showed frustration in each of these ways, which really helped me figure out how to reinforce the behavior we want without getting any frustration. It is easy to see it when the dog is biting you or having zoomies LOL!!! The freezers are harder to see as being frustrated but they are.
So, you can un-freeze her in that moment after an error with a response that can ultimately lead to more reinforcement without having to tell her she is wrong (because she knows). And if there is ANY possibility that your handling cue was wrong… just reward her as if that is what you meant to do (because it was probably what your body was saying).
Now, at 2:30 when she didn’t take the jump, that was a bit of a handling error (more pointing needed :)) and also it is a new skill for her. I thought you handled it pretty well! You can also call her back and do a trick for a cookie, like a spin or high five. And then just keep moving to keep the flow going – she seems to perceive that break in the action without a reinforcement as a marker that she was wrong, so she freezes up a bit – I think that response was residual from other oopsie moments. She will get more resilient in those moments when there is a stop in the action or the moments when she is not correct because there was no reward offered if you also pair them with reinforcement is still available, either with rewarding for potential handler error, fun tricks for tricks (or toy), or quick movement back into the next rep.
The dog on the video I posted above is a ‘freezer’ like Arty – but note how she was most definitely wrong (not a handler error there LOL!) but she had no change in demeanor, she just tried again and got it right 🙂
Let me know what you think! This is a really fun part of the training to explore 🙂
TracyHi!
>>Thanks so much for taking the time to help me look at the jumping! I feel better now 😅
I love obsessing on the little details like this! It is the type of thing that tells us a LOT about the dog!
>> we did our rear cross exercise this evening and I’ve got to say, I’m proud of this!
You should be proud, the RCs looked great! Especially on the left turn RCs. On the right turn RCs, I think you can get closer to her line, sooner, getting right on her tail 🙂 Running in closer to the tunnel can help you set the line even sooner to get those a little tighter.
And nice balance with the GO lines, she was really reading the difference nicely, only one oopsie 🙂>>I didn’t teach my older dog Peaches (first agility dog) rear crosses until we were 4 years into trialing! I can’t believe the progress Arty has made on these at such a young age!>>
You’re doing a great job making sure she knows all the things 🙂 Rear crosses are not what many folks consider “fancy” but they are SO important 🙂
>>I left one part in there for you where she blew past the jump then seemed pretty demotivated when she didn’t get rewarded. >>
Yes, thanks for leaving that in. She was going fast! And trying hard! And just so happened to be incorrect, probably driving to the last place she saw the reward. Oopsie!
>>Do you think this is a “likes being correct” sort of thing or just expects rewards and is confused when she doesn’t get them? It’s always taken her a moment when she is wrong to get back on track to whatever I’m
Asking of her. Just wondering if you have any tips there.>>>>I don’t think it is a likes-being-correct thing as much as it is a ‘you’re wrong’ marker. You can handle the errors without communicating that she is wrong as much – the lack of reinforcement makes it clear that she was incorrect so you don’t need to stop or face her or really even say anything – you can just run her back to try again. You were not trying to use a punishment marker but if that reaction (body language and words) has been paired with negative punishment (which is withholding reinforcement, basically) then it is easy for the dogs to deflate – that sounds like what is happening. So, approach the errors differently:
Have a laugh! Tell her she is a cutie (because she is) and that you liked her effort at doing all the things FAST. Then keep things moving back towards the start while being engaging and smiling. You can even do a trick for a cookie on the way back to the start. No worries about her thinking that her choice on that last one was correct because she knew the instant there was no reward that it was not correct.
Here’s an example: I just finished editing some weave videos for that class, and one of the young dogs made a really impressive blooper of running past the poles and directly into the tunnel LOL! It made me laugh and so I stayed engaged, had a chuckle, said something silly and random, then just tried again. She didn’t get her toy but note her body language here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8lbMni6sbEShe didn’t need a verbal marker or anything change in demeanor from me to know that it was the incorrect choice – there was no click or reward thrown. So in that moment, I just moved back into the next rep and she was a happy girl throughout.
Let me know what you think! Great job here!
TracyHi!
>>Not sure what happened with the sound on the last one but clearly from the first two reps on this one you should never assume my markers are perfect 😳 Although they were pretty good for the wing wrap!!>>
Ha! Yes, the first couple were early indeed 🙂 On the others, now that you are at 4 basically straight poles, you can delay the click until his left shoulder is passing pole 3 and his nose is between poles 3-4.
He did really well here! Lots of accuracy and striding and speed! Yay! You can add in more variations in the angles of entry now too.
>>In hindsight I did way too many reps…
Now that the poles are straight, it definitely gets important to count reps. I think there were 16 reps here, which adds up to about 5 reps on a set of 12 poles – and that is about the most I would do in one session. You can try to limit the reps by counting to 10 reps for 4 poles, or 8 reps for 6 poles or 5 reps of 12 poles. You can also set the timer for 2 minutes and do as many as possible in 2 minutes (which will never be too many LOL!)
>>and the MM is only mildly rewarding…too damn slow and 3 kibble isn’t much of a reward in his opinion. I think I need to figure out how to make this more fun.>>
A couple of ideas for you on this:
you can move the MM further away, so he can run more to it after the poles rather than decelerate because it is close.
Also, you can mix different things into the kibble so it is more exciting and smellier 🙂 My MM currently contains a stinky mix of kibble, cat kibble, and freeze dried tripe (ewwww). The kibble picks up the smell and taste of the other stuff so the dogs are wild for it 🙂
And, you can leave the MM there as a focal point but now move to a thrown reward – something like a Treat Hugger or Lotus ball or even a tennis ball! That is also a good way for us to begin fading out the MM, which is on the agenda in coming weeks too 🙂I think he is ready for you to add poles 5-6! Let me know what you think. Great job here!
Tracy
