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Hi there! Great question! I have seen him do this on your videos, so I know what you are talking about. We ideally want the dogs to look at us, but it is NOT necessarily a MUST for now. Not all dogs want to look at us because there is a fair amount of pressure on the start lines. My 12 year old dog, when she was competing, used to have to hold a stay sideways to the first jump and she would find a point to stare at that was unrelated to the first line (and definitely wasn’t me or the first jump). It was the only way she could manage her arousal. It freaked me out at first but then I just went with it: she never broke her stay, never dropped the first bar, and always read the first line correctly. (She would often stare at the judge before the release, which freaked the judge out and was very entertaining for me hahaha). My Pap, Nacho, would always hold his stay and look away until the release for the first year or so of competing. And Export, my oldest dog, could never really look at me when lining up – he would just stare at whatever. But he always held his stay and always got the first line right. So….I just figure dogs are weird, and so am I haha!! I do play games with my younger dogs to help them want to look at me, so Voodoo, Nacho, and the 3 youngsters all now watch me as I lead out – more for my sake than for their sakes hahaha.
A couple of ideas for you to try:
– You can jog/run to your lead out position – it makes it a bit more challenging for the stay, but that is fine because he seems to have a great stay!
– You can talk to him as you are jogging/running to your lead out position. Either “gooooood booooooooy” or “ready ready ready” depending on whether you think he needs a bit of support to hold the stay as you run, or a bit of pumping up. I use “gooooood booooooy” with Voodoo and “ready ready ready” with Nacho.
– if you are going to be standing still during the release – when you are arrive at your position, crouch a little by bending your knees and breathe in through your mouth like you are using a straw to inhale… that gets focus!
– sometimes, release while you are running to your lead out position – be less predictable :). This is especially useful on straight line openings or big extension line openings like when you are running into a blind cross.
– mix in a lot of what I call “throw back rewards” – when I am moving away from any of my dogs in a stay position, I randomly say “catch” and throw a reward back to them. It can be a treat or a toy and it is relatively unpredictable. Sometimes I do it when I am moving to position after just a few steps, or after 20 steps, or anything in between. Sometimes I do it when I arrive in position for the release and stand still. It is interesting for them so they tend to look at me the whole time. I also do this at trials, when running in UKI for example: I leave the toy and Leash behind them (or MM outside the ring for Nacho) and sometimes release forward to start the course, and sometimes give them the “get your toy” cue to reward the stay (for an NFC run). UKI is great in that a toy can. one into the ring for every run, real Q runs or NFC runs, so it really helps the dogs understand the procedures 🙂
Let me know if this makes sense and how he does!
TracyYay! Keep me posted! I figure we can simulate agility trial distractions as best as possible, without going to agility trials or classes 🙂
Hi! yes, you and I are on the same page about the land and go, land and go – Keiko was on a different page and she was reading these mostly as cavalettis 🙂 the balance on these bending cavalettis looks AWESOME (cavalettis are really great for balance, strength, so many things!) and she definitely thought we wanted cavalettis when you moved them in closer. She did give a little bit of the bouncing when the bars were a little further apart at the beginning and I also think what will produce the bounce is if you turn your shoulders rather than stand still. That can help give her ‘permission’ to move with more impulsion over the bars – I think standing still is telling her we want decelerations so she is doing them cavaletti-style. So, add in turning your shoulders like a big post turn and let’s see what she does, using the distances you had at the beginning (the distances at the end are tight enough that she will still want to trot :))
Nice work here!!!
T
Wow, she looks awesome here!!! her head was so cute on the first rep when you started moving: mom, where are you going? Then she was perfect – tons of independent commitment happening here and you are pretty far past the jump when you release her. Nice!!! You can mix up the timing of the release now, just to add variety: sometimes release when you are still on the landing side for a regular serp – your line of motion will continue on that side, parallel to the bar, no counter motion. And sometimes you will do the counter motion that you did here and release when you are past the wing. Let me know if that makes sense 🙂 Her stays are looking fabulous too!!!! Great job 🙂
TracyGood morning!
>>She’ll ignore “dead” toys and open food, no problem. I’m beginning to ramp that up by making the toys more alive, especially a thrown tennis ball or me shaking her flirt.
Sounds like great next-steps for the progression!
>>Her Daddy is a huge distraction, and so we have him come out and watch us practice. So far, she is able to do little things, but can’t do too much before she wants to visit him. She will come back to me, once she checks in with him. At this time, he has to be inside the ring. If he’s on the outside of the ring, she just wants to be with him. Her other over the top distraction is our oldest dog who loves to run back and forth on the other side of something, like a section of fence, or going around a planted area. When they’re both on the same side, it’s no big deal. But running back and forth or around with something between them is thrilling. That chase drive kicks in.>>
These are great distractions to have access to, especially since you can control them 🙂 You can start by just seeing if she will do the simple tricks for treats/toys with the distractions visible but not terribly exciting. Then, as the distractions get closer and/or move more, ramp up the excitement level of the tricks and rewards. It is a great way to both teach her to ignore them and also to see what helps her the most when there is a big distraction present.
>>Unfortunately, we are not in an agility class at this time. The classes we are taking are things like “Hiking with your dog” and “Out and About”. So she is with other dogs in controlled (on leash) outside public situations, and has to do obedience things in that context. If you have any other suggestions, please share. >>
These are good real-world classes in a time when we don’t have access to our normal agility classes. I think the first thing to do is identify what distracts her – probably stuff like other dogs running :). And, see if you can get her to do the obedience games/tricks/tugging while that is happening. Maybe the classmates can assist by providing distractions like doing fast recalls while you are setting her up in a stay, kind of like a dog finishing a run when you are moving to the start line? I also like to do criss-cross recalls (with safe dogs in safe environments, of course :)) or side-by-side recalls, to simulate running a course while other dogs are also moving (2 ring trials!). I like to throw in flatwork handling in these recalls too 🙂
Let me know if that makes sense!
TGood morning!
>>>> rather than the rewards being next to you or coming when he is moving back towards you, you can switch to tossing the treat to the other side of the barrel. This should reward moving away from you, which will help. And that way, your arm position won’t matter as much
Do you mean throw the reward towards the other barrel? So like he comes around the wing, and I throw the reward out ahead to the other wing?>>
Sorry for any confusion! Toss the treat to the barrel he is going around in that moment, to reward him for committing to it as you move away – so it is more like rewarding him for approaching the barrel, and not necessarily for finishing the wrap around it. So, as if there is only one barrel – reward for the barrel that you cued as you move away from it.
Minny Pinny looks really good!! He looks pretty balanced on both sides and I *really* like how he continues to bend through the 3rd jump, even without you needing to get the reward out there early. Nice!! Great job with the reward placement. He is perceiving this as a cavaletti-style challenge so you are getting a nice bendy balanced trot. As you build it into jumps, he will start to jump and bounce it. When you can do it outdoors, you can add a little more sped by starting further back to see if he can bend into it with more speed. The other challenge you can add now is a slight variation on the starting point: rather than starting him relatively straight to the 1st jump, you can start him on an angle (placing him near the center of the little set up, where the 3 wings meet) so he is bending before he even approaches #1.
I think the tunnel rocking horses actually were good to start in a small space LOL! He did really well – the smaller space allows you to show him everything clearly without trying to outrun him 🙂 His commitment is looking good 🙂 My only suggestion is that you keep your arm back more as you make connection when you are ahead of him (as he exits the tunnel, for example). Your hand should ideally be ‘reaching’ towards his collar at all times, rather than being used to point to obstacles, if that makes sense. So, as he exits the tunnel and you are ahead, you can make connection by opening up your shoulder back to him while you ‘reach’ back towards his collar (a figurative reach back, you don’t actually need to grab his collar hahahaha). That will make things easier when you add in more space and more speed 🙂 If you do get a chance to take this outside, go for it! You will enjoy the speed of it (and so will he) and then you can totally work on how he needs to see connection and commitment cues 🙂
The serps are looking good! Yes, he anticipates the release once or twice but you did a really good job of reward, reward, reward! he has come a long way in a short time with his stationing! I was trying to see why he went past the jump on a couple of them and why he took the jump on others – I think that he does best when you release when you are in the center of the bar. When you release at the entry wing, that was when he was running past? That might not be the reason but that was the only thing I could see that might be different. It looks like you were looking at your hand, so feel free to shake your hand too. I think the errors are just a normal part of the training progression as you add more speed, so looking at it, shaking the hand, even calling his name can help! But overall, he looks really fabulous on these, you have added a lot of motion and he is doing great!
Nice work! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi again! Another great session here on the lateral lead outs! She was correct but not yet entirely convinced that leaving you at that distance was a good thing, note the trotting LOL! The 2nd rep had more speed out of the stay but then she slowed down to be sure. That is perfectly fine, I much prefer it when young dogs slow down a bit to be thoughtful rather than fling themselves at things insanely LOL! So – since her stay was perfect and she was accurate here, do 2 or 3 more short sessions just like this – sometimes rewarding back at you, but also mix in throwing the reward to the barrel/wing sometimes to shift some value out there to it. Her turn will be great, so I don’t mind tossing the reward out to the barrel to help convince her to leave you to go to it. When she drives to it more – add distance, gradually moving up to 15 feet away from the barrel (parallel to it). That will take a few sessions but I think she can nail it! Great job!
TracyHi! She did really beautifully here too, it is a nice start to being able to get focus in any situation. The tugging was definitely more stimulating, she was pretty chill with the treats alone. Now, we don’t always need to get her super stimulated, sometimes treats are better – it will be trial and error as she begins her career 🙂 So next steps for this game: two approaches:
1 – add distractions. Can you get the same/similar focus from her, with distractions in the environment? For example, start small, with maybe a training bag or container of treats on a chair nearby. Then build into bigger distractions – another dog running around? “The Daddy” walking past her? All of this will help prepare her for the ring and for all the distractions that come with it. Is she in a group class at the moment? If yes, and if there is room to do it, you can play this while other dogs are running agility (think of it as the beginning of your pre-run routine!) Experiment with different things (food, tug. different tricks, etc) to see what works best.2 – get her porridge really “hot”, make her wild (flirt pole maybe?) and then do a stay/lead out 🙂 Basically, that creates her internal arousal as the distraction, just like it is at a trial for many many dogs. Can she still focus and hold a stay when she is as crazy as possible? So far, she is fabulous so I think you are ready for challenge her! I teach all of my dogs to “self-chill” like this when they get wild, internally 🙂 because the trial environment might make her wild. We want her to have the tools to cope even when things are really exciting – so far she is completely stable, never seems to lose her head, so I think this will go really well 🙂
Great job!
TracyHi! This went really well – she held her stay perfectly, you had plenty of speed – and her commitment was excellent. You were pretty far past the exit barrel when you released and she had no trouble with it – yessss! Both sides looked equally good, and I think she liked it because she was driving through it. If you aren’t already doing so, remember to run back and reward the stay and also to throw a reward back to her on the landing side of the jump, to maintain value for commitment. Next step – put it on a full jump with 2 wings and a low bar, to give her the complete visual. She seems totally ready for that!
TracyGood morning!
Yes, he did a great job on his station! Yay!
On the threadles – this is moving along very nicely 🙂
A few ideas to keep moving forward:
>> And with the trheadles, I think my arm wasn’t far back enough on a couple?>>I thought your arm position was fine! You can play with using a cross-arm to see if it helps him differentiate. I teach both styles of arm use to my dogs.
On the reps where he did not come in (went straight to the Ready Treat) – 2 ideas for you:
– It is possible that the visual of the reward was overriding your physical cue, so you can shake your threadle hand to add a little more saliency to it, and also be sure to look at it (it was hard to see where you were looking, your head was cut off LOL!)
– also it is possible that “ok” as the release was too confusing. In general, OK in that context means “stay on the line” or “take the front side” so you can change the release to the threadle verbal rather than OK. I am pretty sure that my most experienced dog would take the front side of the jump on the OK cue and only threadle on the verbal, even if I am standing in the position you were in 🙂If he misses and heads to the ready treat, you can happily call him back (I use the pup’s name or a “c’mere, silly!” or a chuckle) so he doesn’t get to the RT and wonder why there is no cookie 🙂 Then reset like you did and ask again.
He did really well with the catch moments, after the first one – I think he was surprised like you mentioned (he was anticipating a release based on the context) and you did not have a cookie ready – you can still toss it back even if it is late in that moment, even if he moves forward – the catch word just means “reward arriving back near you” and doesn’t require any behavior from him at that moment to get it. You had the cookie generally ready and tossed quickly on the next catches, and that really helped 🙂 The cookie can be in the threadle hand like you had it, or in the remote hand – as long as you don’t accidentally also toss the remote back to him (I’ve done that by accident LOL!!!)
The serps looked terrific! He did anticipate the first verbal as a release forward (you said catch) but you still got the reward to him. So in those very first moments (which tend to simulate start lines at trials, where he is most anticipating a release forward to the jump) – have the cookie ready if you are going to do a catch toss, so you can say it and toss it immediately 🙂 The rest were great because he seemed to remember that the catch as a possibility 🙂
This is an appropriate place for the OK release, because we do want him on the line he sees and to take the front of the jump. I thought he rocked it! Even with motion – no problem. So, you can ramp it up: start next to his station, walk through the serp line on the landing side of the jump with your serp arm back and release (keep moving) when you get near the exit wing. You can start off oving slowly but add speed if he is finding it easy 🙂 And of course sometimes don’t release forward, sometimes toss back a reward or walk all the way around and hand deliver a reward 🙂Great job here!
TracyGood morning!
Oh wow, where are you? Looks *amazing*!!! Brilliant use of vacation structure for a little bit of agility training LOL!
His head turns look terrific – the 2nd wrap is looking really good (he does need a bit of a hand cue for it, which is perfectly fine, I really prefer is the dog does not keep offering a zillion wraps in a row LOL!) but also note how he is leading with his head on the first approach as well: that is ideal and you can totally reward it! So when he whips his head around on the first approach you can click that and then toss the reward out past you so he completes the full circle. And since he is doing so nicely leading with his head, you can start a little further back to challenge him to do it with more speed coming into it 🙂>> Lennan seems to totally get it when he is turning to the right but not quite yet turning to the left.>>
I think this is when he was offering 2 in a row to the right, but not to the left? Yes, he did offer the doubles on the right – there was the tiniest bit of physical cue (you were leaning in a little) for the 2nd right turn, and there was no lean-in on the left. And also he might has slightly more ‘slither’ to the right than to the left at the moment 🙂 So keep helping with the hand cue for the left – you will see it even out quite nicely! I also do lots of flexibility games, like puppy stretches and weaving through my legs to help even out the flexibility on both sides. But I think he is really understanding the concept of “turn your head” on both sides and that makes me do a happy dance!
>>Also, when does this course end for posting videos?
Last day is Sept 15th, which gives us time to turn it all around for part 2 🙂
Enjoy your vacation!!
TracyGood morning!
>> Kinda like the rhythm in America – lalala – lalala – na – na – na.
Perfect way to put it – without needing to hear it, I know exactly what you mean LOL!!!
>>You asked about the verbal cue for the 360 backside. Min’s is na-na-na, but I don’t use it much and I’m not sure it is too close to the lalala backside slice even if I try to draw out the na-na’s a bit more than the faster triplet sounding lalala.>>
In the video, they were very distinct, probably distinct enough… but the question is: can you make the naaa-naaa-naaaa sound like that when you are running hard? Yes, I am actually the person that tests the verbals at a run in my field, without the dogs (ask the neighbors). It is possible that the lalala and nanana will begin to sound the same, but the only way to know is to run while you do it 🙂 You can also review Min’s videos where maybe you used both in the same run and see what they sounded like in the heat of the moment?
One thing I have noticed about the lalala and the nanana cues, as an outside ear: for whatever reason (not sure why or where it comes from) many many folks who use the lalala and the nanana cues have added an ‘upbeat’ of “ah” so the verbals end up being AH-lalala and AH-nanana. Waaaaay too similar, I suggest NOT adding the upbeat because we want the dogs to respond to the very first part of the verbal and not wait for the complete sentence or the physical cue. The AH makes it all sound the same by adding the same sound/pitch/rhythm and also ended up making the lalala and nanana sound the same. I will tell you that when we ‘tested’ the dogs who had the upbeats, they really did not understand the difference between the lalala and nanana. Food for thought!
>>I think Susan deliberately picked 2 similar sounding words for the backside cues, but I’m wondering if that is confusing for the dog since they jump the slice and the 360 differently.>>
Did she say why she wanted similar cues, and does she still do it that way? Yes, both cues send the dog away to the other side but the rest of the behavior is entirely different.
On the video – this is going well! The cute barrel is getting a nice workout. Small details:
On the backside slices, try not to help him serp back in on the jump when you move away on the serp line. For now, drop the toy in behind you on the ‘landing’ spot as you serp through, so you don’t need any arm movement to help. I think the bump in the grass is probably not salient enough for him to hop over in this game, so you can add a low bar to a jump when you get back home for him to default to (he is old enough and coordinated enough to do this on a low bar, methinks :))
When you were doing different version of the backside slice, like a FC or a post turn, he came back over easily because the physical cue really supported it nicely.
He did really well on the 360s! A little distraction here and there but no real questions about the skill from him. You can crank up the excitement and the challenge by adding more speed/motion: first by letting him chase you at a run to get the toy, after he completes the circle. Then, add in more and more motion as he is doing the wrap – eventually you will be able to do this at a run 🙂Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning! Great stuff on these videos!!
Moving the prop further away really helped, you can also reward at your hand before the turn away. Unlike the serp or threadle, there is no automatic turn away or default behavior on this – it is cued – so feel free to keep balance on your by reward him for coming to your hand. He was doing a good job coming all the way to you on the tandem turns but he was anticipating a little on the lap turns and turning himself away a little too soon (overchiever LOL!) So the balance of cookie from your hand for coming ALL the way to you and then another cookie for going to the prop will help keep things nicely balanced 🙂
TUnnel whammys – going really well! And since we are putting the threadle on a verbal, it should not matter what the physical cue is, theoretically LOL! I htink he did really well here and he seemed like he was having a great time. Fast and fun!!!
Toy place/racetrack:
>Last time you wondered whether he doesn’t want to play with the toy – the problem is he REALLY wants to play with the toy.>>
Got it!
>>I think just a month ago I would have said that he could be difficult to engage in toy play, but lately he has lots of toy drive and overall his food drive has declined. He’s started weight shifting back and doing some shaking the toy to death. >>
This is a normal shift, and a good thing! The food drive will come up again and it will all end up being in a nice balance.
>>But he’ll jump as high as my face to try to grab it. In this session I was working on tug, release, reward with tug again.
I am glad you left a lot of the toy play in the video! One thing I noticed is that – yes, he is doing a great job of releasing the toy. But, and this might be where the waters are a little muddy: when you cued the get it for him to jump up – you are moving the toy high and fast, either just before or simultaneous to the get it verbal. That might mean that he is not responding to the verbal, but that he thinks the higher/faster toy movement is the cue to jump for it. When you keep the toy low or slowly put it in your pocket: no problem.
So you can change how you use your get it cue:
tons of rewards for him ignoring the toy moving fast and up after he releases it (you can toss treats into the grass in that first moment of impulse control, then add duration and reward from hand, and eventually wait for him to offer a sit.and when you do want him to get the toy – get the toy into the spot where you want it – hold it there for 2 or 3 seconds – then give the verbal without moving. That can help isolate the verbal as the cue, and not the toy movement. That should result in less launching for the toy 🙂
Let me know if this makes sense 🙂One other idea (I do this with my 2 toy-crazy pups) – the toy is present, the toy is swinging around – but the toy is not the reward 🙂 It is hanging out of my pants or tucked in my arm pit (classy!) but I use food rewards. It helps to desensitize the thrill of the toy being in the picture LOL!
>>I mixed the toy play up with running the racetrack (kind of…I keep accidentally doing a front cross instead of the second post turn!).
I think the racetrack/cross elements on the video look GREAT! No worries about the extra FC LOL!!!
>> It was frustrating though because after a couple barrels he was starting to get more focused on the toy in my pocket. Perhaps 5 “obstacles” may be a bit more than he’s ready for?>>
Possibly, he is really young so you might take more of a ping pong approach: 1 barrel then 3 then 2 then 1 then 4 then 2 and so on – with more rewards thrown out past the barrel (and less on you) to keep the value out on going to the barrels and not on coming back to you (loves da momma and also da momma has cookies and toys!) I think he did really well when the toy was on the table!
But one other thing I see – if your connection is not spot on, he moves to you rather than commit to the barrel. It is super subtle from him – it is more obvious with other dogs when it happens. In the demo video, I believe I left in a spot where Contraband slammed into my butt because my connection broke LOL! Not subtle. It *looks* like the pup is grabbing for the toy, in the moment – but they really aren’t – they are just losing info and either coming to us or trying to blind cross to the other side. The disconnection is subtle – I had to play it in slow motion: You made a very lovely connection at 2:37 – then before he passed you at 2:38, you looked ahead (broke connection). So he didn’t know what to do and came to you (which is better than slamming into you like Contraband did, OUCH! LOL!). Compare it to 2:57 where you made a great connection and maintained it until he was past you. Subtle to us, massive to the pups! It gets MUCH easier as they get more experienced, we don’t have to be quite as perfect with connection.
And throwing rewards out past the barrel (rather than delivering from your hand or near you) really helps: whenever I get a question from the dog (or slammed into), it is a reminder than the value is shifting to me (and away from the barrel) so I remind myself to put more value back past the barrel (and away from me) for going to it even when my connection isn’t perfect 🙂
Let me know if this makes sense! He is doing really well, so we are able to get into the tiny subtle details of the training – so fun!!!!
Tracy
Good morning!
The first video with the porridge heating was indeed interesting, as you mentioned in the video 🙂I think he was in an optimal state of arousal for working – you had his pretty undivided attention in a very happy way, which is what we were going for. Now, why the downs versus sits? Based on how he did the downs the first couple of time (sit then into the down) it is entirely possible that what we are seeing is a conditioned response to stimuli in a specific environment. What I mean by that is: food, in your indoor area here, elicits a ‘offer behaviors because we are shaping’ response – so when you didn’t instantly mark the sit, he moved on to the next behavior in his repertoire (down) which is likely to have been highly reinforced with food in that room (beds nearby, shaping area, sister in a down nearby, etc). Now, the toy elicits a very different response: in that area, you probably don’t shape behaviors (like downs or hanging on beds) with a toy – the toy means games like ‘tug-sit-tug’ or stays to releases for agility-related behaviors. You were very careful to be upright and not pressuring down towards him when you cued the sit, I didn’t really see anything different other than what was in your hand as perceived reinforcement (cookie or toy) which leads me to think that the cookie or toy is playing a role in it. So I think your porridge heating is going great and we are getting insight into how to elicit behavior we want! When you are going to shape or train something, choose the reinforcement that is MOST likely to help elicit the behavior you want. You can get great porridge with either treat or toy and so then you can choose depending on the environment and what you want to elicit. Let me know if that makes sense 🙂
You can balance in the sit with cookies in the environment by using a perch or something that is easier to sit on than down on. You can also do super quick rewards for the sits in the presence of treats, either hand delivered or tossed back high behind him (which is a response cost, he has to get up to get them, which makes it less likely he will offer a down because the down is a less efficient way of getting the treats in that case :)) And if you give a verbal sit cue, don’t reward the down – just call him out and ask for it again with the super quick reward.The other thing I noticed was that he needs a bit of a physical cue on his turn cues (spins) – when you had cookies you were helping with a small physical cue (which is fine :)) and when you had the toy, you were stationary and he didn’t quite know how to respond. It might be partially reinforcement-related but worth it to see if he can do it with the physical cue with both types of reinforcement in view.
On the rocking horses video:
So convenient to have a rocking horse AirBnB! Ha!!! And a built in other-dog distraction – perfect. It might have felt annoying in the moment but it is a priceless training opportunity! He did well with all that. At :28, did you cue a down or did her offer it? I think he offered it but I had trouble telling if you gave a soft cue or not because my old dog is barking his head off at the moment LOL
Kal did a great job generalizing the rocking horses – new items, new location, AND his sister was barking. Excellent commitment which allowed you the freedom to do crosses, spins, race track – all looked good!!!! Generalizing is so hard and he seemed to find it easy 🙂He was offering a sit for the treats in porridge heating round 2 at the end, also he still needs the little hand cue for the spins on the flat (and that is fine :)) So that might be an environment thing: at home, down is a well-paying job 🙂 and out on the road, sits are better paid with either type of reinforcement. Interesting! Either way – he was really focused and did a great job in the different environment.
Great job! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
