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Hi!
This video is also a good reminder of timing of tunnel exit cues! Bearing in mind that she needs to see and hear the exit cues when she is 2 meters from the entry:
At the start of the video, starting her that close to the tunnel made it hard to time the cues – plus she had a ton of value on the weaves from the previous sessions so she kept going to the weaves, understandably. Putting yourself there at the exit didn’t help as much because it still cued her to exit straight.
Adding a physical cue before the tunnel helped: at 1:05, the spin had too much collection because she didn’t have momentum into it, but after that she found it helpful. I am not sure if she needs a spin in that situation or if letting her see you move away laterally would be enough – definitely something to try, provided she sees both cues when she is 2 meters from the entry.The timing of the verbal to turn or go to the weaves should match the 2-meter rule of the physical cues: when she is 2 meters from the tunnel and you want her to turn, you should be saying left. You generally said it after she was in the tunnel, which is late enough that she was likely to have not really heard it. Same when you wanted the weaves: tell her to go weave when she is 2 meters from the entrance. You can use the tunnel cue as she lands from the previous jump, but then switch to the next physical and verbal cue nice and early 🙂
I think by the end you were starting the cues earlier, which really helped! I like to put a leash on the ground as a line, to help provide a visual for how early I need to start the cues for the tunnel exit – it is pretty darned early LOL!
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
I did mean 10 🙂 At 9, you can decel and move laterally or use a brake arm – but at 10 (the backside) when you do a full post turn: you turn and face the tunnel for a heartbeat which sends her long over the jump, thinking the tunnel is next (she dropped the bar there because of that on the first rep). A spin there will get her turned to her left to face 11 and also get you up the line faster 🙂T
Hi!
Did you have a video link for this? I don’t see one here.
>>This week is miserably hot. It’s 9 PM and dark outside and still “feels like 96°”
Yep – I was going to go back out last night but it was still 90 degrees, so…. 6am it was instead.
>>I’m not sure that i realized how close with with with and zip zip zip sound. MFer
I think they sound different if you emphasize the I of with and the Z of zip: so it is wiiiit wiiiiiiit and zzzpzzzzp
T
>> question regarding the skill sequences. In your pdf, you have exercise #1 with wing as #1, jump as #2, tunnel as #3. Yet in your video it’s Wing #1, tunnel #2, jump #3, tunnel #4. Which way do you want us to do it? I’m assuming the way you did in. your video, but just wanted to be sure
Aw crud, it is a typo. The tunnel should be 2 and the jump should be 3. Sorry! I have fixed the PDF.
T
It is in the 90s here this week – I was out at 6:30am trying to get demos on film and it was HOT and gross! Ewwwww!
Hi!
>>yes I think she was finding the thinking hard work. I certaintly did. Need to work on getting distance but at the moment aware that she is still a baby Still working out what she understands and how much I can leave but she is putting things together fast.>>
I personally prefer that young dogs are thoughtful and not just running fast. It is easy to get speed when they understand what we want. It is harder to get understanding when they think it is all just about going fast 🙂
T
Hi!
>>I will go back to 2o2o. She knows “target” and was doing that for awhile. Your rationale makes sense – she is just too fast! but in a good way!>>
Yes! Fast is exactly what we want, so she needs to understand how to do the contact obstacles completely independently of your position (and it is on us to teach that, of course LOL!)
>>Next practice: 8/8
NFC UKI speedstakes, 2 runs. Nice to see 2 runs available back to back. Have only done speedstakes>>SO FUN!!! You’ll have a great time.
>>Let me know when you start updating your calendar. Muncie is a tad farther than what I’d like to drive. I looked at the farm and see that Daisy Peel will be there in Sept. Thoughts?>>
I will probably update it when we have a better handle of what things are going to be like with indoor facilities this winter. I thought things would be fine… but now I am not so sure. I like the Farm facility but I don’t know anything about Daisy’s approach to teaching.
Tracy
Hi again!
>>Before I forget; I was not sure what verbal to say when Stark is doing a tight turn around the wing. I decided to use his left wrap verbal. But I wasn’t convinced that was the correct thing.
That is fine! You can use your wrap verbals on those (that is what I do). Some folks use backside verbals on them, but I only use backside verbals where there is a bar so the dog knows the difference. Either will work as long as you are consistent,
>>When Stark is running he really does not like to decelerate which causes him to turn WAY to wide. I really need help on figuring this out and working with him on deceleration and tighter turns.>>
I think this is a handling cue issue maybe wth a little bit of ‘more training needed’, not a dog decision issue :)I think the wide turns here were legit, based on the info he saw – and when he got the info he needed on time and clearly, he was perfectly happy to set up tight turns 🙂
Also, bear in mind that he doesn’t need to decelerate a lot to create a great turn, just a little 🙂 but he does need to know well in advance. Otherwise, he has to make the choice and it might not be what is numbered on the map LOL!
And, being 16 months old – wide and fast is 10000% your friend. Tight turns are something the dogs grow into. A dog that is super tight at 16 months old is not going fast enough 🙂 And, when we time the slightly wider turns versus the very pretty turns: the slightly wider turns are consistently much faster, particularly with 16″ jumping dogs 🙂 I have 100% full faith that his turns will fall into place without diminishing his speed, if we give him earlier/clearer info (and also not worry about how tight his turns are because as he gets more experienced, he will have a better understanding of what we want him to do).
One other thing that will help, on the dog training side of things:
when rewarding turns, to help the dogs WANT to turn: keep moving and let him chase you for the reward: Stark can chase you and then as he catches up, throw it ahead of you. This makes turning REALLY exciting and the dogs set themselves up to turn better. If you stop him or decelerate to reward, the reinforcement value is reduced so he is not going to be as driven to turn.>>Are you ever against using a gate or a visual barrier to help with collection?
I never ever use a gate or barrier to ‘help’ with collection. I find it to be rude to the dog LOL! And I also find that people want to use them as a band aid for timing or training not being where it needs to be. I mean, chances are VERY high that the dog didn’t collect because either my cues were late/unclear, or the training is not in place in that scenario – or both. Very very high possibility that there was something wrong with my info or training 🙂 In fact, basically guaranteed. LOL! The gates/barriers put a lot of pressure on the dog to be correct and the gates/barrier create the behavior (for some dogs, some dogs either refuse to jump into them or some dogs run around them), when I MUCH prefer to teach the handlers to be right and maybe do a little bit of dog training so the dog can respond more quickly if/when I am late.
Also, besides adding pressure and slowing the dog down in general – gates are hard to fade and there is not a lot of learning that transfers to when the gates are NOT there. What transfers is the handling and the training 🙂
I mean, if the handler was perfect in the cues and the dog had a long history of perfectly trained and testing behaviors and was an adult, experienced dogs… I would be open to using a gate as an aid. But since that never happens LOL – with experienced well-trained dogs and decent cues, the dogs turn just fine. With youngsters in training and the handlers learning about their timing? No need for gates or barriers.
I am not sure if you took a look at the Sequences for Success from Package 2? Those demos show some of the training to help the dogs understand how to turn and respond better to the cues, as well as a look at whether timing is good or not, relative to when the dog needs to see it.
Onwards to the video! Since you have questions about his turns, let’s at the video from the perspective of what he sees when he is making a jumping decision or when he is taking off. I am watching them in super slow motion so I can see what he sees, when he needs to make takeoff decisions.
On the wraps, first video: In general, you are late with the cues he needs to see, so he is jumping wide. Decelerating earlier (before he makes a takeoff decision, so just after he exits the tunnel) and then rotating your feet to move the other direction before he takes off is going to be more useful for him to collect than using arm cues near the takeoff spot. Those arm cues near the takeoff spot are causing you to face forward, which indicates less collection and a bigger jumping effort. Looking at what he saw as he was taking off:
At :05, you were a little late rotating but you were moving away, so he did collect to turn. Compare it to :13 – you were leaning down with your hands but then turned your shoulders forward, with your feet facing the jump – and he jumped long (correctly) then fell on his head after landing to try to get back around the wing.Then freeze it when he takes off at :20 – you are leaning forward, feet pointing forward… he takes off long because that is the direction you are indicating. Freezing it at :27 – you were a little bit sooner but still late giving the turn info. At :36, you were a little in the way AND facing forward at takeoff – but being in his way a little shaped his line, so he had a nice turn on that one 🙂 And freezing the takeoff spot at :44, your hands down by the takeoff spot then you did a swoosh forward – so he jumps long.
Ideally, by the time he takes off, you should be long gone up the next line. So if we freeze the video on his takeoff spots, you would be already heading back to the next line. I think the think you should try is to decelerate and then rotate before he passes you – so the rotation will help show him the collection, and the ‘new hand’ will help too: if he starts on your right side, then the left hand is the one that should be indicating takeoff with your feet fully rotating – not your right hand because that will face you forward too much.
So what would the timing be for the wraps? When he exits the tunnel, he should see you transition from running fast to decelerating. Then, when he has to make a takeoff decision (which will be in the final 3rd before the jump, at the latest, because he should already be collecting thanks to the transition into decel – and also before he passes you), you should be rotating so when he takes off for the jump, your feet are already completely rotated, facing the next line (back to the tunnel in this case) and you are moving away.
Looking at the next sequence on the 2nd video:
Isolating the different turns here, starting with the wrap at the exit of serp at :06 and :14 and then later on at 1:19 and also 1:26 and 1:34: I think he is setting up the turn nicely here, but you are in the way so he goes around you, which widens the line. To get it tighter, you need to be on takeoff side when he is on takeoff side to get the tight turn there. That countermotion cues more collection and also gets you off his line so he can turn tight on the wing (no moose-ing allowed LOL!) Look how tight he was at the wrap exit at :37 when you were ahead and not on the line! Niiiiice!
Looking at the line of 2 jumps after the tunnel where he was wide over the 2nd one (red one) – part of that is how the course was built: he is turning to his left from the tunnel to the next jump, so getting to the red jump required a right turn, followed by another left turn to get to the wrap or serp jump. One thing you can definitely add in is a ‘brake’ arm to help cue the a little more collection on the left turn to the serp jump – the brake arm is the outside arm, coming up as a bit of a stop sign, when he lands form the jump after the tunnel and is getting the cue to take the red jump.
Looking at the handling, there was little bloopers that are common to handling such a fast dog who is also very inexperienced on that type of zig zag line:
At :18 – you had a little disconnection on the jump cue, pointing forward and peeling away so he kept turning left and didn’t take the red jump (correct reading of the cue). Running more parallel on that line the whole time (rather than sending and leaving) can get him to create the lead changes and get you across the exit wrap of the serp line earlier too! When the lead change cues are late, he zigs in and has to zig back out, he is getting late into (:26) so goes wide. The other places that he went wide there were simply late cues (:35, :48, 1:15): he didn’t get the turn info until he was over the red jump or had already made the takeoff decision for it.At :58, you were playing with the timing and added a clearer decel – YAY!!! You lost the connection a little there but then on the rep at 1:03 I think you were able to get the best turn there out of all of the reps.
So what would the best timing be, and when to give it? Based on this setup: when he is taking off for the jump after the tunnel, I think he already needs to see the cue to changes leads to take the red jump, so he can either make that lead change before takeoff or just as he lands. Then when he lands from that jump, front feet hit the ground, you are connected and indicate the red jump with your left verbal, a brake arm, and then laterally move away through to the serpentine. The fastest line would be a bit if a NASCAR oval (we really don’t want it super tight because that would be slow, but it should be tighter than it was here). A bit of training with the placement of reinforcement (Sequences For Success 2) can help with that too.
I think his collections on the wrap to the inside went well! You had to wait for him to come back to it after he landed, but that will get easier when he is tighter on the previous jump. My only suggestion for the wrap exits there, like at :43, is to stay really close to the wing and to his line for several steps as he exits the wrap, to set the tightest possible turn to the last jump. His commitment was great with your countermotion! You stayed a little wide of his line, so he curved out a bit wide there too.
So, overall – I think if you can deliver the cues sooner (depending on which cue it is: rotation, decel, brake arm, it all depends on the scenario), run the tight lines, and reinforce accordingly: you’ll see his turns automatically be where you want them without slowing him down (adding in time for him to get more experience and maturity :)) You are on the right track!!!!!
Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>>Do you feel that teaching a tight right and tight left verbal would be beneficial?
Stark’s right and left is a soft right and left. So tight pinwheels could be a problem. Thank you AKC.>>
I guess it depends on what you mean by a tight right or tight left? I have wrap cues that ask the dog to come back around the wing, and my ‘soft’ right/left are for turns that are 90-degree-ish (maybe that is what you mean by tight pinwheels?). If I want a general turn that is wider than that, I just say “jump” which is a general commitment cue: not a tight turn, but also not a GO. It is more like a NASCAR race track curve.
For example, looking at the Package 2 Sequences for Success (which has pinwheels): On sequence 1 for my 16″ and smaller dogs, I would just say “jump” for the 4-5-6 pinwheel (it is not that tight of a turn for them, faster to jump bigger) and for the 8-9 turn, I would say “right” for 8 because that is relatively collected.And for the moment, I don’t want more front side cues than that: wraps, 90-degrees (left/right), gentle curve (jump), straight (GO) and lead change (get out). I think I would lose my brain if I added more verbals for turns that are between 90-degrees and the gentle curves LOL!
If I needed to tighten a pinwheel, I would add handling to those cues – a brake arm, or a decel, or even a spin – it depends on the dog and on the scenario. If pinwheels are being a pain, you should do the Pack 2 sequences and we can sort it out 🙂Let me know if that makes sense.
Tracy
Hi!
>>I also wanted to mention that I have managed to pull my Achilles tendon and am in PT. Hoping this mends quickly.>>
Oh no!!! Fingers crossed for a very speedy recovery! Very frustrating for sure 🙁
I think this skill is going really well too! You are using a tiny bit of hand motion, which is fine – your path is straight and you are not giving her too much help. She is basically self-flicking after the cue 🙂 When you add more motion, you can say the verbal a few times – it helps with processing as you add more motion because hearing it a few times can ‘break through’ the excitement of motion. And speaking of adding more motion, you can add more motion from you by moving faster as well as more motion from her, by starting her from a cookie toss rather than a stay – but keep these separately for now, so she and you are not both adding motion at the same time 🙂
The other thing I think she is ready for is the balance of going past the wing and not flicking to it when you don’t cue it, as well as the send to the other side of the wing.Great job here!!
TracyHi! This is looking really good! She has good value for it and was able to ignore the distraction of the agility equipment 🙂 My only suggest is that rather than toss treats in the next session, hand them to her because it will be more realistic to what will happen in different places. You might not be able to toss treats in more crowded locations, but you can hand them to her.
>>Time to take this elsewhere.
100% yes! Any trips to the training facilities coming up?
Tracy
Hi!
>>My brain struggles to know what I’m
Asking of the dog if there is just a wing.Yes, it feels a little weird to start backwards 🙂 I think of it as which direction the dog is turning so that is the verbal I will use, regardless of how I start to send into it.
Her commitment looked great and I really liked her increase in speed as you drove away to the next line. She was questioning a bit on the backwards sending when you started from a stationary position, so you can toss rewards back to her as she wraps the wing when you are backwards and moving away. She did really well when you were moving into it! And also the race track looked strong – I think more connection will help her go even faster: at 1:30 the camera gives us a good view – she is exiting the wing and can’t really see which side to be on til she sees the wing because your arm was up and parallel to your body. Dropping your arm back more (your fingers pointing to her nose 🙂 ) will help open up the connection even better so she can drive to the wing and not question which side to be on.
2nd video –
>> I struggled even more with that oneI think the struggles were more of a value shift issue, not a handling issue. More below 🙂
It took you a moment to sort out the circle wraps on just the wing – the circle wraps have you cuing the wing then following in her path right behind her tail 🙂 but you were totally getting it! My only suggestion on those is that you lean forward to move out of them, try not to step backwards at all after you send her past you. That step back changes the line a little and also delays you from getting up the next line – you can see it is you watch your feet. For example – after she exits the tunnel, you would send her to the wing from your right side. Then your first step was back towards the tunnel with your left leg, then you would step forward again to the next wing. Instead, as you send her to the wing after the tunnel – try to just lean forward so your very next step is forward to the next wing. It is a tiny detail but it will really help as the courses get bigger.
So why did she start questioning *more* as the session went on, even as you got more comfy with the handling? Balance of value shifted. With young dogs, balance of value shifts a lot, it swings back and forth like a pendulum: sometimes they want to commit to lines because there is soooo much value on lines, and sometimes they don’t want to leave our hands because the rewards come from our hands. In this session, you had a lot of not wanting to leave your hands here – partially because she was getting all of the rewards from your hands in the form of a high value toy in this session, plus in other sessions recently there might have been a lot of reinforcement from your hands so the value is now very strong for staying near you (which makes countermotion difficult!).
So, we can shift value back out to the wings and lines by changing placement of reinforcement: add in more reinforcement that is tossed to the landing spot (other side) on the wing as you move away, rather than rewarding from your hands. It can be a throw toy, or a throw treat – anything that is not from you hands 🙂 Then you will see the value shift out to the wings and lines again. This shift swings back and forth for the first year or so of sequencing, so no worries, it is totally normal! And we are always looking to make sure that the balance of value is spread evenly between obstacle focus and handler focus. Let me know if that makes sense.
Great job here!
TracyThat does indeed make it harder – it can be a bit unpredictable. I got to the point with my dogs that I just assumed they would get distracted, so shifted gears to work on that rather than the sequence work.
Hi!
>> used the tossed treats pattern game- both dogs worked it fine at a small distance. I couldnt do it too close to ring as other dogs around. but was only a few feet off the side .
Great!!!
>> Once we went into holding area veloz went sky high. no focus at start but getting more control at end except for gamblers where he boiled over but it was body slamming rather than mouth, and he didnt go into a spiral of madder and madder.>>
In a couple of weeks, we will transition the pattern game into something you can take into the holding area too, so keep working it so it is highly recognizable, which will make it easier when we transition to the next steps.
On the sequences with Fusion:
She did really well here!!!
Sequence 1:
the tunnel does come after the wing wrap, so you made it a little harder for her to find the lines there on the first section by skipping the tunnel after the wing. She did have really nice turns over the jump!! Because this sequence seemed pretty easy for her, you can add in more arousal in the form of toy play before/during/after instead of just food rewards. That will help teach her to work in higher arousal, which is what will happen when she starts to trial.Sequence 2: also going really well!
On the first run: the wrap to the inside looked really good!
rep 2: this one was the slice to the outside – she didn’t read it as well here – the flip away needs a clearer cue: one more step to the slice line and also I think outside arm to cue it (1:07) will help her understand to turn away from you there rather than wrap towards you.rep 3, FC at 1:20 – you were a little late getting to the FC, so she had the bar down and you finished the FC on her line so she pushed to the backside after it.
MUCH better on the next rep – you got further ahead on the tunnel send so the FC was sooner and that set up a nice line after it too. Nice!!!!!Sequence 3 – she was a bit tired at this point and slowed down a lot – so if you see her being tired you can get her more excited to run with the toy 🙂
Looking at the options for the backside jump after the tunnel:
On the first rep – the threadle wrap at 1:45 creatd some questions for her – she did it and it will keep getting faster as she gets more practice seeing it. You can also do a BC after the tunnel to do it as a send to the backside wrap. After that, keep moving to support the 180 jumps she had a little question there because you stopped a bit too early.2nd rep – the backside slice at 2:07 was really good, definitely the faster choice – you can keep moving after she commits to the backside, no need to stay on the landing side and drop your arm back to help her take the jump – if it is not a default behavior and she might run past it, we can train her to take it so you can stay in motion 🙂 Your connection was really good, so you can see what she understands about commitment on backsides by continuing to move through rather than help her.
Next sequence:
On the first rep, she didn’t get the backside at 2:30 because you were pointing forward ahead of her , which broke connection. Really good adjustment at 2:43, strong connection! The outside arm helps that too!!! Then when she commits: keep moving 🙂 you stayed there on the landing side and then did a full FC so you were in the way on her line.2:58 was even better on the backside send – you didn’t need the outside arm and you kept moving better. NICE!!! She dropped the bar there – it is hard to see it well from the camera angle but it looked like you were too close to the entry wing so you were in her way as she was jumping – so you can try to send to the backside from further and further across the bar so it is easier to move up the next line.
Threadle to the inside there for the wrap worked but it was much slower. You might be able to get it closer in timing if you do a BC to a wrap from your right side (you were there in time for the blind) rather than the threadle which slowed her down and added yards.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi! This sequence is looking really good! You did add an extra jump by cuing the pinwheel jump after #6 (6a LOL!) but that is fine because it added some good challenge 🙂
The first run – so nice! You stopped and rewarded after 5, which might be because you wanted to reward or because you forgot the line (you rotated in towards her) but either way – REALLY lovely!
2nd run – another really nice opening, my only suggestion there is to line her up as straight as possible from 1 to the backside of 2 so she doesn’t have to turn when she lands from 1
2-3-4-5-6 were great 🙂 You sent her wide on the 6a pinwheel jump which also put you a little too close to the 7 jump – and out of position for the FC on the tunnel exit. At :30, this caused you to accelerate straight when she entered so she was looking at the wrong line when she exited, then came back for the FC – I think the late FC was what sent her wide over 9 so finishing the cross before she exits the tunnel will allow you to set up a turn cue there. At :34 on jump 10: I think she needs a spin there, the post turn points her to the tunnel and then she was surprised when you kept rotating so she pulled the bar there.
run 3: Gorgeous opening again, and you had a really nice line from 1-2! Great job making adjustments in the middle section: You sent into the pinwheel and gave a collection cue, so 2 things happened there that looked great: she was tighter on the line from the pink jump back to the tunnel and you were in a GREAT position for the FC at :58! I timed the section versus the previous run, and the better line 6-7-8 was significantly faster on this run 🙂
She had a better turn there on the tunnel exit because your position was so much better. Yay! The FC still started a bit late (watch her exit looking the wrong direction) so try to start the FC when she is still a solid 6 feet from the tunnel entrance.
The better FC set up a better turn on the jump after it to the backside. The post turn worked better here but I bet a spin would tighten it up plus it would get you even further ahead on the next line 🙂Great job here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
