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Hi! I agree – the serpy stuff is really hard for her!!! You were doing your absolute best to be really clear and precise on the handling – and she still had a list of questions LOL! So – let’s change the picture. Sometimes the change of picture will make the concept click into place.
I think angling the jumps will make things MUCH easier, kind of like the zig zag grid but not as close together as that grid. So instead of the 2 jumps in the ‘flat’ position, angle the outer wings towards center, so she is almost going straight at first as you doing the serp handling. Then, you can gradually start to angle them back towards straight (like the zig zag grid) while you continue the serp handling. That should help with the send-and-go you were trying to do in the beginning of the video, and the serps on left that you were doing later on. You had all sorts of good things happening with the handling and the toy placement – she just was offering a different response LOL! So you don’t need to change the handling or toy – just try angling the jumps and see what happens. Let me know if that makes sense!
Tracy
Hi! You have gotten a lot done, she is doing really well!
ZigZag grid: her zig zag jumping looked good! Her first rep was slightly off balance but then the next 2 were lovely. The stay was hard, I think she was cheating a bit 🙂 Interestingly, she had a rock solid stay on the 5 jump grid. I wonder if she tends to break more on new and weird looking grids? Then on the ones she is more comfy with, she is more relaxed and solid. Speaking of the 5 jump grid – definitely looking good and more balanced!! And the stays were really solid (you got a nice reward in there too). She is turning into such a nice jumper, really lovely! You can keep flattening the zig zag grid and keep adding motion to the 5 jump ladder grid.
Threadle:
This was hard on 2 jumps! I think that there was too much motion for now – she was following the line of your feet and would stay on the 180 unless you turned your feet. So – for now give yourself either more of a lead out or start ahead & send her to the first jump so you can walk through it more on 2 jumps. That way you can emphasize the upper body and verbal cue – and not turn your feet. Eventually you will be able to add back the speed but for now, she has trouble separating the motion from the upper body. Walking will keep you in motion and let her process the word and arm cue to override the foot position 🙂Serp sequences –
She smoked you on first rep, just got a little ahead of you after the tunnel send. You had better position on the rest of the reps! She has a little trouble staying out on the line sometimes on this sequence and on the next video when you flipped directions – you can angle the middle jump (serp jump) very slightly towards her, so she lands looking at the bar and isn’t tempted as much to come into the other side next to you. And then with the motion on the next rep, you can add in a little name call to help her come in (although I see why you didn’t try to help her come in too much, because she had come in too much previously). Once she remembered the serp line on the 3rd and 4th reps – really nice! I think that slight angle of the middle jump will help her see it even better so you can run even faster up the line.Serp sequence video 2 – the other direction
On this one, she had trouble finding the line 1-2 with your moving parallel to it (to move through the serp line). She did better finding 2 when you stepped in and supported it with motion, so you can definitely keep doing that. And the slight angle of the bar towards her will help her find it so you can run the line you originally planned – the line is correct :), she just needed more support because it was a bit of a backside to her. Once she figured it out, she did a great job driving through the serp!! The tunnel push at the end is a hard one, you can try converging onto her line sooner so she changes leads over jump 3 to turn to the tunnel.
I noticed she was not being very zippy bringing her toy back LOL!! She might be at the stage where bringing the toy back means you will take it then line her up again, so you can have her bring it back then throw it for her again or send her off for a run with it again – just so she doesn’t end up thinking that bringing the toy back is a bad thing 🙂
Great job here! It is fun to see the pieces coming together!
TracyHaha it was me – I posted one of those birthday fundraiser because Facebook asked if I wanted to do one. So people thought it was my birthday and they donated – which is totally fine with me LOL!!!! If it is my birthday all week, I wonder if it would be OK to eat like a pig all week, or only on my birthday?? LOL!
VERY fun about the weave training!!!! He is so smart – he is picking it up quickly!
T
Hi!
It sounds like things are resuming in your next of the woods, very fun! And Jess will give you plenty of good stuff for the contact training – is her facility open again?>>Can we post videos thru late Monday night?
Sure! I will check in again on Tuesday 🙂
>>I doubt we will be able to get thru everything especially since the threadles didn’t go well. Is it worth trying the sequences anyway? At lease maybe the serps and crosses…
The serp and crosses sequences are definitely worth playing with! The threadle sequences can go on the back burner until he is happy with threadles on 2 jumps. Threadles with the handler running forward take a while to train… plus they are not that important for young dogs (which is why I started them late into the class). So no rush – it is more about building the concepts then the sequences.
Stay cool – the temperatures and humidity have gone sky high here!
Tracy
Hi!
First video – Wow, the 3 jump serp looks really great!!! You were connected and working each line! He is still having to think about it a bit (totally normal, it is a hard line for young dogs) but he is getting it better on each rep! Be prepared for him to get even faster when he is totally comfy with it 🙂 You did a good job reminding yourself to keep moving especially on the later reps 🙂 You can put a tunnel out past the last jump as a way to stay in motion!2nd video – good reward on that start line! I think he doesn’t know exactly when to start, it looks like he starts when you reach a certain spot past the jump. Sometimes you have released him, sometimes not. So be sure to clarify for him when the release is: lead out, praise, then release or reward. He isn’t being naughty, I think he legit believes it is go time when da momma reaches a certain spot LOL!
The serps are looking good – You probably don’t have to go quite as close to the 2nd jump on the send – you can probably send from further away and then leave to drive up the line. He read the middle serp jump nicely on the 1st and last rep! You were a little further ahead at :32 when he missed the jump, but he might have been avoiding it a little because on the previous rep it sounds like he whacked his feet on it? If he is sensitive enough that he doesn’t want to hit the bars… YAY!!! That is good 🙂 So you can try being as far ahead but maybe not moving quite as fast, to see if the motion was the issue. You can send from further away to get there without having to sprint 🙂
Great job, he is doing really well!!
TracyHi! I think these looked great! I liked the first couple of reps with the FC – they were on time and connected and he read them really well. I loved the next couple of reps with the blind! You were on time and connected, so that allowed the info to be even sooner and he was faster through them. I was about to say I liked the BCs better but then at about :50, you did 2 FCs – very fast and on time, and he was SUPER fast on those too. So I like them all LOL! He had the one oopsie of dropping the bar at 1:14 when you showed the toy on the re-connection – the toy was a little distracting. You did the same on the next rep and he was perfect. I think he might have been anticipating the release a little on the focus forward (leaning forward a bit) so you can throw the reward back to him when he focuses on the first jump.
Because this went so well, the next step would to spread the distances out so you really have to run run run 🙂 And alternate straight lines back to the tunnel with FC or BC to the tunnel… and you can even do FC or BC back to the other jump 🙂 Have fun with it, keep him on his toes 🙂 Great job here!Tracy
Hi! I know how exhausting it is to wrestle with the internet!!!!!! There are times where I want to go back to pony express LOL!!
But it was worth it – so much lovely work on these clips!!
Wow, zig zag looks great!!!! I think on your next revisit, you can start exactly where you left off for a rep, and then flatten it up all the way. He is doing a great job on this!!!! You can also go back to a little wider and go to 5 jumps. He is doing an impressive job on this! This grid is much harder than he makes it look.
Serp sequence:
1st rep – nice job on the open upper body to get him to come in! Then when he came in at :03, you turned forward and pointed at the tunnel you wanted… which actually caused your shoulders to indicate the other side of the tunnel so he didn’t turn back. But you fixed it beautifully on the
2nd rep at :12 – you kept your shoulders open, t*ts to target, all the way through landing – that created the 2nd turn you wanted beautifully! And great job rewarding it.3rd rep – he went past the serp jump, we’ll call it a young dog moment 🙂 He saw the juicy tunnel and you were moving and he couldn’t quite make the turn. I think you upper body position and your name call were all strong – I blame the steady motion. But the steady motion was correct handling. You got it on the last rep by changing your motion – so now on your next revisit of the serps, try to stay in smoooth steady motion. No decels to bring him on… but also don’t go too fast yet because motion is exciting to a youngster. Send him away and walk through it towards the tunnel, no change of pace. You can also do it on one jump near the tunnel 🙂 If he struggles to come in, slow down your pace but remain in motion throughout. If it is easy: go faster 🙂
Combo sequences – that first jump is a serp with a juicy tunnel distraction, so he had young dog questions when you tried to move on the first rep. Great job breaking it down and clicking him for taking it! Showing him what you want made an impact – he was then able to get it in motion when you came back around through that section with speed on the full sequences! Nice! The rest of the sequences looked good too – nice and connected, and smooth! He was able to power through really nicely 🙂
Combo sequences 2:
He did a great job on the first jump here!
He committed really nicely to the wrap jump here and you got your verbals out! Yeah!!! On the wrap – I am a big fan of using the ‘new’ arm here like you did – just add in more decel so you are rotating as you indicate with that arm, to give a stronger collection cue. At :04, you had the arm up nicely but you were still moving forward, so he took of in extension and turned when he landed. You had a MUCH better rotation on the 2nd rep at :17! He was still a little wide because it started a little late – because you switched the toy to the other hand LOL! I am sure you didn’t even realize it – as he landed from jump 3, you switched the toy. Ideally in that moment, you would start the decel then rotation. The toy switch is what delayed you by a step. So either try to leave the toy in one hand (I find that hard to do :)) or shove it in your pants (although that is kind of a large toy for that :)) or leave it on top of the tunnel and grab it on the way back before the reward. Or a smaller toy, which can be pocketed or stuck in your pants.Great job on these! Baby dog is growing up and doing some really high level skills work!!
Tracy
These are all good!!! You can also revisit the lazy game so you can stroll around and reward him for taking things. Also, it is a great opportunity to do tons of throw-back rewards for stays. Couch directionals on a wing in the house are also good (you’re on the couch, not him hahaha). I also like fitness stuff and tricks, so I can be stationary and the dog does all the work haha!
Also, for the teeter, you can set it up like the bang game, pull up a chair to the end, and have him back up into position – that is great for hind end work on the teeter!
I’ll keep thinking of knee-safe games…
TracyHi!
>>Ti took off chasing birds with Josie at his heels, I called and she pealed off him and came running back to me. How quickly which arm to use in a threadle doesn’t matter ya know? Extra cookies for Josie.
Yes, so true!!! A great recall is about 10 million times more important than threadle arms 🙂
I think 2 separate things where happening here:
Threadles versus serpsSelf-control on cookie targets LOL!
First, the threadle:
>> I was getting in my own head and trying to figure out how she would know when it was threadle vs serp. I’m just using arm back for serp, should I use opposite arm too for threadle? Other difference is threadle will have the ininin verbal.>>
Yes, verbals are different for sure. Not just the in in verbal, but I also recommend a turn verbal on the threadle jump too: if it is a really tight turn into the threadle, I might use my wrap cue and then the threadle cue. The threadle cue doesn’t really tell the dogs what to do on the jump, it is more about what to do on the *next* jump (take the non-obvious side). So my wrap cue says :turn tight on this one! then I go to “and take the non -obvious side of the next one!”
Also, positional cues are different (serp position is different than threadle position, in terms of the lines we run).
Now which arm? Personally, I see no reason to lock yourself into only one arm cue. I use the dog-side arm (also known as the “open door arm” when we swing it back) sometimes – but only on the easy threadles where I am in a great position. I use the cross arm on the harder threadles and also when I am behind (the dogs just don’t see the open door when I am 20 feet behind, ya know?) So train both and then you will begin to know where/when she needs to see each one.On the video, she was doing well and I really liked the balance rep where she seemed to have no trouble staying out on the 180 🙂 Yay! Try to just keep your upper body open and not rolling in and out to cue the 2nd jump. The oopsies were more about the cookie target 🙂
So on the cookie target – for threadle games, for now – use an empty cookie target. Separately, train her to ignore a cookie on the target (or a toy on the ground) and come in and touch your hand – come to momma then maybe you will go back out for the cookie 🙂 You can start with a remote feeder, or a bag of treats, anything where she can’t exactly self-serve 🙂 Then go back to the naked cookies on the target. On the threadles, she wasn’t lacking understanding the threadle cue – we can’t assess understanding of it because she was just locked onto the cookie 🙂 So the empty target might be just enough distraction for now on the threadles/serps as you build in understanding on ignoring naked cookies 🙂
Let me know if that makes sense! She is doing well on these!!
TracyGood morning!
Threadle concepts are hard, so no worries if it takes a few sessions to build them up. Teaching threadles are definitely an up and down progress!! It can be frustrating, I feel that pain. One thing I definitely recommend is to balance with 180s more than you did here. I’ve found that dogs go into threadle mode, so the threadles look so easy in a session… but then go to poop when we try to show the dog the difference between the 180 and the threadle. On your first 180, he was still threadling – then he go into 180 mode LOL! Totally a normal session – so I do more alternating of the 180s and the threadles while the jumps are still angled (the 180 is more of a backside, but that is fine). More balance will let you know if he is actually responding to the cue, or if he is just in a rhythm.
So, using a slightly angled threadle set up, do more alternating within the session. Also, give the cue for the next thing on approach to the first jump – you were giving the in in when he landed. Now, it was easy on the easier set up but it got harder when he had to see the 180 side as well.
You can also add in more space between the threadle jumps, so he can have more time to process the cues: 10 feet wing-to-wing can help! And you can stand kind of in the middle and send him to the first one, so you are ahead and can give him the cue as he is on the way to it.
Threadle cues rely on the ‘weaker’ cues (arm and verbal) to override strong cues like motion – so it takes time and can be very up and down (just like running contacts LOL!!!)
The set point looked really good – in typical Benni fashion, he processed the challenge of the new jump height and was just fine here. Yay!!!
Let me know what you think! The threadle process is frustrating sometimes, but you are on the right path for sure 🙂
Tracy
Good morning!
Excellent session here, filling in the answers to her questions. She was awesome on the stationary reps – drove right in and turned back out. Perfect! Also terrific on the moving reps: your mechanics were spot on (you were clearly focusing on the training mechanics here) and she nailed it. A really awesome session!!!!!! I suggest another session on one jump: start with walking and then go to jogging.
If that session goes well with you jogging, the next session after that will be a couple of reminder reps on 1 jump with you jogging – then add in a jump before the serp jump – send her to it, then jog through the serp jump. Keep the toy on the ground and also keep your fabulous mechanics. Let me know if that makes sense. Great job here, truly a top notch session!!!T
Hi! Nice job balancing serps and backsides with the threadles here! They are really hard and he is doing well 🙂
Some ideas for you on the various skills:
On the serps – he is having trouble driving in, not quite sure what to do with his body – he is shaping his own line by moving towards the center of the bar then turning (rather than just driving into the turn) and is also not coming in with confidence yet. So, you can do a session or two of having him come in over a low bar (very low :)) and rewarding him for touching your hand (fun and easy) and also you can throw a reward behind you when he comes towards you – straight back (using your other hand). That can get him loving to drive in towards you even more. There is a lot of pressure on serpentines so we can reduce the pressure. And when he is driving in, we add back the 2nd turn (by having the toy on the ground). Based on what he is doing, I suggest keeping the bar really low for longer – no need to raise it until he is driving in hard AND collecting 🙂
Also, you don’t have to lean quite as much on the serps (threadles, too, more on that below) – that might be adding to the pressure and contributing to him pushing away, so try to be a little more upright.
On the backsides – be sure to not do the banana line of curling your chest forward and your feet forward as he is on the way to the backside – that is what was causing him to cut to the front at the last minute, like at 1:11. Keep your upper body open & facing him while your feet do the ‘split step’ away from him, that will help 🙂
On the backsides where you had that strong connection, he pushed quite nicely! On a couple of the you were using more of a leg-step to the backside wing and not as much connection, so he didn’t read those as well – like a :43. Ideally, you should be able to run a parallel line and not have to give a big step on these set ups – a little step is fine as long as you don’t become a banana haha!!!
OK onwards to the threadles 🙂 He is doing well! On the one jump threadles, you don’t need to lean over as much – being more upright will transfer to course running because you won’t be leaning over like that on course 🙂 You mentioned your feet – on the one jump game, your feet face the toy – you started doing that nicely after the first couple of reps. And then remember to keep your upper body frozen on the exit (no need to cue the jump), the in in means come in and take the jump – you were doing that nicely starting at about :17 🙂
He is also not yet powering into these, so I suggest a lower bar and easier angles for now. Also, on one jump – add motion. Start to move through the threadle while he is in a stay (walking) then cue the in in (I use it as a release). The 2 things to work through on one jump are:
* You standing still while he goes to all sorts of positions around the clock, eventually to where he runs all the way around the jump to threadle
*Him on easy angles while you adding walking then jogging then running.Then we put these 2 together 🙂
On the 2 jump games:
One thing I noticed was that your arm cues looked similar on the threadle and on the backside. We want to make them different enough that they can support the verbal cues. So on the threadle, if you are doing open door – swing the arm back and hold it back. On the backside, the arm is in a more natural position, down and out of the way. You had a swinging door going on the threadle and the backside LOL!! That was causing your arm to move back and forth on both cues, possibly causing some questions from him.
One other thing to be careful of is when you are doing the open door, that you don’t turn your feet at all or move sideways (like at :47). It was better at :51 in terms of feet running forward, but you will want to be sure that you are running forward the whole time on threadles and not turning your feet.So food for thought – practice the mechanics of open door threadling, without him, so your arm cue is back and open but your feet can keep running forward.And practice how to make it look different from the back side cue. Right now I am walking around my office doing that: my open door threadle arm is high and back and causes my upper body to rotate a lot. My backside send arm is lower and back by my hip. The other way to play around with how your open door threadle arm should be is do a big threadle arm with your opposite arm! That will toss your open door arm back…. now take out the opposite arm and do the same with your open door arm – and there ya go LOL! Let me know if that makes sense 🙂
Nice job here! He is off to a great start with very complex skills!!
TracyGood morning!
Many lovely things here! The zig zag grid looked awesome – no tweaks needed, just tighten it up a bit on the next session. Watch for front foot “pitter patter” if he adds strides at all – if he does, open it back up a tiny bit to where he can bounce it again or shorten the distance (it doesn’t have to be 6 feet on this one).
Threadles- Looking really good!!! And you were wise to set him up to make them easy, with the motion and the 2nd jump. I think you can add more balance reps (looks like he went around jump 2 at the very end?). Also, you can make the open door more obvious (a little more swing back motion) but more importantly, don’t “close the door” by swinging the arm or rolling your shoulders forward to cue the next jump – the open door and verbal cue that jump, so maintain the cue and then just relax the upper body.
Serps – On all of your serps, I will bug you to “face” the jump more with your upper body (your feet were perfect). It will really help the serps, not just on this first video but especially on the 2nd one with the tunnel out there. Ideally, you rotate your shoulders so your upper body is facing the jump. The Brits call it “t*ts to target” which cracks me up but also helps me remember: turn your t*ts to the target – and the target is the jump bar. What was happening was you were turning your dog side shoulder to be perpendicular to the jump bar. On the first rep he ran by, and on the next 2 reps you were using motion (moving away from the jump then back towards the next one) to get him to come in.
Your running line on the first rep was spot on! Now as he exits the tunnel, you would be calling him in with your left arm back (similarly to the open door arm) and your chest fully facing the jump bar: both t*ts to target 🙂 And it will also line up your shoulders to the wings of the serp jump: right shoulder to the exit wing, left shoulder to the wing closer to the tunnel.The left arm back will really help get your upper body rotated to face the jump.
And it will really help when you add the tunnel out ahead as the distraction on the 2nd clip. On all 3 reps, you turned your shoulders forward (your right shoulder was perpendicular to the center of the bar) – which indicated the tunnel. You did get him to come in by changing motion, but your instinct to keep running was correct – keep moving up the line like you did on the first rep and face the bar with your chest.
Threadle:
In In from the tunnel to the jump – very nice timing! You can open the door a little more with the arm but otherwise he was beautiful! The only other suggestion is to use either his jump cue or name or soft turn cue on the rest of the line, rather than the Go verbal – the jump cue or name will cue the turns for the serpy ending.Really lovely work! Let me know if the serp suggestions make sense about chest rotation 🙂
Tracy
Good morning!
Before I watch the video, this caught my attention:
>>. Thinking about it, I must look exactly the same to her as I do when she weaves … chest open, near arm back and low, feet pointing forward. Is that right?>>
Hmmmm… the weaves should have no physical cue associated while she is weaving. Yes, a handling cue directs her to the entry but then you should be able to do *whatever*: tap dance, strut, cartwheel, sprint, slow down, run away… so if you are helping with a physical cue on the weaves, you should strip it out by going back to the method you are using to train them and teach her to go through the poles no matter what you are doing. That will eliminate any confusion if that is part of it, plus it will help you have more independent weaves. Think of the weaves like a tunnel: direct her to the entry, but then while she is doing it, you can do whatever. You wouldn’t want to have to use a body cue to support a tunnel 🙂
Onwards to the video:
Thank you for posting the entire progression, it really helps me try to figure it out!
I don’t think it is a weave confusion issue at all 🙂 But definitely be sure you aren’t building body language into weaves!So on the serps: it looks like there are 2 small details that are causing holes – so it works on 1 jump but not on 2 jumps, as you experienced. The 2 details are:
* not enough motion
* she isn’t seeing the toy on the ground as part of itHere is what I mean:
Motion: you were leading out, assuming the position, standing still… and basically on the successful reps where she *did* come in, you were standing still until she was taking the jump. On the reps where she did not come in, you were trying to move earlier or move faster.So, on all of these, stay in motion the whole time – be walking with your upper body in serp position and release when you get to the far wing (serp position) while you are still moving. You will be in motion the whole time – slowly, but still motion. And the motion will be steady: not slow then fast, or fast then slow. If you changes speed (like at :51) she will get confused as the sudden explosion of motion is a big distraction. Start with walking and then go to jogging then eventually to running, over the course of several session. Also, keep your position clear and don’t change position to help her: you were trying to change your position when you had 2 jumps out there, but that made things a little muddy (that was when she threadled the first jump on the 2nd rep and also at 2:55 where you did a post turn to get her to take the jump).
Toy: when we started these, we have the toy on the ground – that was partially to get the reward in for the bend back to the next jump, but also partially to install the self-control of “take the serp jump even when there is a distraction out ahead AND while the momma is moving”. The rewards here are in your hand, so on one jump, it is fine – but then when a distraction is out there (2nd jump) and when you are trying to move… the behavior gets lost.
So do 2 sessions (at least 2) on one jump where you are walking the whole time and there is a toy on the ground the whole time. That will fill the two holes and should make things MUCH easier when you go back to 2 jumps!
As for the weaving of the jumps, where she did take jump one then ended up on the backside of jump 2: that was a motion issue: you were stopped – released – then as she committed to jump 1, you exploded forward towards jump 2 (sometimes turning your shoulder forward) – all of which pushed her away to the backside. The steady motion of moving up the line and not pushing in towards it will cue her to take 2 and should get rid of the accidental backsides 🙂
Let me know if that makes sense! Serps will be easy peasy when you work those two elements in.
Tracy
