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Hi!
>> So my question(s) is when the running order is short to tall ( Buddy would run first) Does Tanner perceive that he is not as special because he doesn’t run first. Like he might being punished for not running first?
It is hard to ascribe emotions to dogs like that, because we really don’t know what they are thinking 🙂 It is not likely that he feels like he is being punished. It is entirely possible that he gets aroused or frustrated, and that changes his state of focus and adds stress (there is certainly some science to support this).
>>How would one go about in trying to fix this behavior? If that is the right way to ask it. I know I am putting many human emotions on this but I am not sure how to say it or fix it?
I like to let one dog watch me run my other one at home or class, and the ‘watching’ dog gets to eat cookies, chew a bone, etc – then gets a turn to run. If you have someone hang out with him while you are running Buddy and give him treats, it is possible that he can maintain a less stressed state and be more focused for his run.
>>We stated in a hotel Saturday night and none of us slept well.
Yeah, that is hard!! Makes the next day a bit exhausting. It sounds like he was tired in his runs.
>>This one local individual comes up to me and says:” Your dogs are the only ones that didn’t Q that run”
I SAid: YOU are telling me this … Why???
she said: ” to rub it in”
I said : So .. THis makes you feel good to be mean???
she said: “well uummm ” and walks away>>>WOW someone really was poorly behaved! Must be pretty miserable in her world to try to dump that on you. Bleh! I hope you smiled broadly at her as she walked away LOL!!!!!
>>I shook my head and let it go…. or to say I put in the box to growl at later..
Yes, put it in a box to rant and rave and SQUASH later on 🙂 Yay!
>>Laura : Mary I hear that drew is on of your students
Me: So
Laura: He needs to quite leaning down when running and not talking so much to his dog
Me: He is aware he needs to work on that but nervous have kicked in , I ‘m not worried about it.
Laura: She goes into 10 minutes of her trainers told her and therefore everyone shouldn’t do chatter
( I think you get the picture)
Me: That’s great that it works for you and your dog. But they are not you or your dog they are their own team. I am fully aware of what they need to work on. Considering this is their second trial ever and they are green newbies. I think you have a lot of guts to come up to me,when you are only two years into this sport, telling me what I need to teach the students at our club. Granted I definitely prefer you coming to me and not him. But what you and your dog need to work on to be a team is most definitely not that same thing at this time they need to work on to be a confident team.
Laura: (eyes big as saucers ,mouth on the floor) UUMMM I have no doubt that you are a very instructor, turns around and leaves. (I am not the only one that helps these students at our club)
I put in the growl box.>>>WOW again! Was it a full moon?? HA! You handled it beautifully.
>> I couldn’t wait to pull them out of the growl box and discuss with you.
I love your phrase “growl box” LOL!!! And hopefully putting it away and knowing you could growl about it later made it easier to let it roll off your back. I am shaking my head too – crazy that these folks said this stuff!!
>>I have really enjoyed this class and all your feedback.. I know I will continue to go back over my notes and work on various areas to improve. You have been wonderful and really insightful. You have made online learning so positive. I will miss our discussions. Thank you for everything. May God bless you through this season and the new year.
Thank you for the kind words <3 Wishing you and yours a festive, joyous Christmas and the best New Year ever!!!!
Tracy
Hi! I think freestyle might be the BEST dog sport for use of visualization! It is a performance, so you can really visualize every inch and every beat of that performance. And you can turn on your music to help with that too – very fun!!!
T
Yes!! Performance goals can turn ANY run into a winning run – because if you nailed your performance goals, then you have won! And even a Q run can be a weak run if you didn’t execute your performance goals 🙂 And focus on performance goals will also help you get more of those lovely Q runs as well 🙂
Your plan for classes is a good one – and also your list of outcome goals is a good one. You cannot control any of those outcome goals you listed, you can simply do the best you can with your performance goals to help support the potential for those outcome goals.Tracy
Hi!
>>I am amazed as I concentrate on being positive with myself how much I hear my fellow competitors berating them selves. I am adding positive states to them like, I know you can do this. We can all do this. It is fun.
Yes, I agree, that there is a lot of negativity in the air at agility trials! Keep the positive thoughts flowing for yourself. And you can also add that it is really terrific to see Ace so excited to play this game with you!!!!
T
That is an interesting insight! Your jitters about running Ace might mean the walk through feels so much shorter! But it can also mean that you just nee to give yourself more time before it to prepare, as well as use the tools to reduce nerves like centered breathing, release valves, reframing, etc.
T
It was a GREAT question! And it is also why food should also be used as a toy. Why is it that we humans are so boring when using food rewards? LOL!! Fast and fun with dance breaks!
T
I think it only comes in a deep blue, really nice! But I couldn’t justify the cost (says the person with 3 Paco collars for Voodoo, hmmm….)
The less expensive back up for the MM is the one-hit wonder that Clean Run sells, I think the Clip and Go people make it?
>> What builds self-confidence in a pup? (you know me, this is a detail question). So in the IYC game in particular I have seen pups really shy off of the treat when you close your hand a couple of times. It “feels” like they are being shut down a bit.
Sooooo many answers to this 🙂
In general: being aware of genetics and also careful early environmental exposures will help – letting the pup get settled into life in such a way that builds confidence. I think this is a key thing in the first 2 or 3 weeks with a puppy, yet it is often overlooked or the puppy gets pressured into things (coming from someone with a 9 week old puppy who is currently in this stage :))In the self-control games: I have also seen a lot of glazed over, shut down pups. SOoooooo many reasons! The first set of reasons go back to the Big Three:
Timing
Criteria
Reinforcement (Type, Rate & Placement)For timing, people are often waaay toooooo slooooooow to reward the dogs, so the dogs can shut down from frustration.
And, criteria might be waaaay too difficult: the puppy does not need to sit there for 30 minutes while I juggle treats – that is something that will glaze them right over.
Also, too much failure and not enough reinforcement and poor placement of reinforcement can shut the dogs down.So what builds confidence? The Big 3: Timing (fast responses and feedback!), Criteria (easy enough at each level, and super clear) and Reinforcement (lots of it, placed in a clear way, and valuable). Thinking of it as concepts and a game – not control. Ask a question: can you do this? If the answer is YES, then reward right away, have a party, take a tug break. If the answer is Yes, don’t ask another 500 questions before rewarding (that creates such a low rate of reinforcement). And if the answer is No, maybe ask once more – if the answer is still No, ask an easier question the reward quickly.
Also, too much repetition for cookies makes the whole thing boring – having to watch cookies dance for 30 seconds or 60 seconds without actually getting a damn cookie is a shut down for a lot of dogs! And now make that a 10 minute session. So, building in tug breaks keeps it really fun and exciting and fast paced 🙂
The shut-down is one of the reasons I have moved folks away from traditional self-control and into the stealth self-control games: we can make it super fun to teach self-control for everyone without obsessing on self-control LOL!! Hot Sauce has never really worked any of the traditional self-control games, only stealth self-control, yet at 16 months old she already has some pretty amazing self-control. She is DEFINITELY the type to get frozen and bored and lose confidence if the Big 3 go wrong, so that is partially why I have been careful.
Let me know if that makes sense 🙂
Hi!
Yes, the barking was a bit hard for her at first, which made the tugging hard. You can ask her to do some tricks for you (tricks for cookies) to get her pumped up and focused (and ignoring the brother LOL!) then go back to the tugging.I think the flexing hand was a great idea, it made your hand really salient as the target and she did a great job! A stationary hand is not as visible as the flexing hand in these early stages – plus, for agility, we never have to fade the flexing hand. Clever!
She did really nicely bringing it to your hand. The only oopsies seemed to be when she tried to bring it to your face LOL!! And then yes, I think she got mentally tired somewhere around the 3 minute mark on this clip (particularly if she had previously been training a bit with her brother, before the video). You did get that one last one that was really good, but you can also sometimes end a session when she is tired. You don’t want to make a habit of that, but once in a blue moon is fine (there is data out there to support this). To avoid that, you can set a timer – 60 seconds, maybe? – and finish the session before she gets mentally depleted.
Overall, she is doing a great job! You can add the Hand cue in situations where she is getting pretty reliable. And, separately from that, you can start to change your position to kneeling then sitting then eventually standing so that you can get her to bring to hand when you are standing up.>> AT the trial this weekend we did some tricks and a slight amount of tugging. In the trial she wasn’t as interested in tugging. She was even able to do some of her tricks for strangers as well.
Great! It is normal that the tugging might not be as comfy at first, so short sessions with her favorite toys will help. But I am glad she can do her tricks for strangers, that will go a long way to helping her feel relaxed at trials 🙂
Nice work here!T
Hi there!
I think this session went pretty well – part of the lack of speed was the small-ish space, and part of it was that she is still learning to be comfortable with the pressure of you also running. So when you win, tease her a bit and reset very quickly for another race without giving her the toy, so she can channel that excitement into whipping you on the next rest – and that is exactly what she did. Yay! I bet when you try this in a bigger space, she will smoke you. Definitely remember the tease-then-reset when you win – if she gets the toy even if you win, she won’t have a lot of incentive to beat you to it (also known as driving ahead :)) You can also play with higher value items, like throwing a meatball or a toy that makes her wild 🙂 She is off to a great start! Fingers crossed she had a great vet appointment 🙂T
I have heard terrific reviews on the Pet Tutor! It works better than the MM, it is an easier shape to use in different situations, uses different types of treats, and doesn’t have that loud clanging whirring beeping that some dogs are afraid of. The folks who have it say it is like the MM but better by a mile. I personally haven’t purchased one because the price was a bit cuckoo when I checked last and my MM doesn’t break down as often. My pup loves the MM noises and in the rare moments when it isn’t working correctly, she just smacks it until I get there to fix it LOL!!! But some dogs do NOT like the MM and the reviews I hear on the Pet Tutor is that those dogs do indeed like the Pet Tutor.
Plus it comes in a better color, and that is important 🙂
T
Hi there! Hope you had a great week!!
On the first video:
She is definitely excited to see those treats!! LOL!! Her little tap dancing feet were adorable. On these reps, she was perfect *after* she tried to snag the cookies the first time. Yes, you were super quick about closing your hand, but we can add a level for her to get her to offer self-control immediately rather than ‘test the waters’ 🙂 and try to snag the treats. Here is a little descriptions and 2 videos (turn up the sound for explanation on the videos):
Here is an additional challenge for you: the first moment of self-control is also the most important moment (in real life) because we aren’t going to be able to close our hand on everything 🙂 Make this a traveling game: with a handful of treats, show her the open hand. If she says “oh thanks, I will take that” and you close the hand, have a good chuckle and change to a new spot in the room (staying engaged, happy, telling her to come with you… but no treats). Then show her the open hand in a new location. If she tries to snag the cookie again, repeat the process (close hand, engage while moving to a new location). She will get rewarded if she can offer self-control the first time, rather than after you have to close your hand. The moving to a new location delivers a bit of a response cost. And, by moving to a new location, the games takes on more of a ‘get it right the first time’ element rather than a ‘you get 2 chances’ element.Here are 2 demos with my Nacho, who had ZERO self-control as a pup:
https://youtu.be/BtA3UvBsNssHer self-control on the toy is looking really terrific! You can add in standing up so the toy moves away, then rewarding her for not leaping up at it. This will most commonly be used in resets between reps in training – so be sure to include a lot of these ‘get it’ cues as rewards for the great release and self-control on the toy!!
Cookie recalls:
She was really good about ignoring the toy on the ground to do some fast & furious recalls (and also coming off of any cookie scent in the grass). Nice! You can smooth out the mechanics to start the game (hold her, then take the leash off, drop the toy, throw the treat – without being held, she wasn’t entirely sure of what to focus on at first).You can swap values on this game: have her run past cookies on the ground (in a sealed bag at first :)) as the distraction – it is possible the cookies are a higher level distraction? And you can also take this game on the road to present other things that might be distracting: running past people, recalling to you while a dog is nearby (stationary at first, then moving, then building up to running agility!). What types of things does she find distracting? We can work them all in 🙂
Nice work!!
TracyHi there!
Yes, the self-control games need some maintenance for all of our pups LOL!!!
When you have the treats in your hand, keep the cookie hand open while you deliver the reward – it amplifies the self-control challenge.
She ‘remembered’ pretty quickly in this session. So, here is an additional challenge for you: the first moment of self-control is also the most important moment (in real life) because we aren’t going to be able to close our hand on everything 🙂 Make this a traveling game: with a handful of treats, show her the open hand. If she says “oh thanks, I will take that” and you close the hand, have a good chuckle and change to a new spot in the room (staying engaged, happy, telling her to come with you… but no treats). Then show her the open hand in a new location. If she tries to snag the cookie again, repeat the process (close hand, engage while moving to a new location). She will get rewarded if she can offer self-control the first time, rather than after you have to close your hand. The moving to a new location delivers a bit of a response cost. And, by moving to a new location, the games takes on more of a ‘get it right the first time’ element rather than a ‘you get 4 chances’ element.Here is a video with Nacho (who had ZERO self-control as a pup and now can run past pepperoni pizza 4 feet away at trials):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtA3UvBsNss
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GebavUK8eY
(turn on the sound for explanation)That first recall was using bacon? Niiiiice 🙂 The toy recall also looks good, You can build on the recalls a bit by having her facing away from the direction you are running, focusing on what you have thrown – and you can start running as soon as you let her go. The verbals would be continuing to say get it get it get it (til she gets it) then her name for the recall. It will be a great way to introduce countermotion and balance the value of chasing you versus going to do something.
Hi there!!
>>one of my not-so-secret favorite things in some of the border collies I’ve gotten the chance to run is that thing where you tug and release the toy to them, and they immediately shove it back in your hands. I’m easily excited by little things like that:)
That is a great thing to be excited about! It also falls into the ‘be careful what you wish for’ category, as many BC mommas also get toys and balls pushed into their hands when they are sleeping, eating, wearing nice clothing, into their crotch, and also toys dropping into coffee cups, on computer keyboards and into wine glasses LOL!!! I recommend teaching a cue to mean “thank you, please go lie down with your toy” LOL!!!!
He is doing a great job here on the video and your timing of getting excited when he puts it in your hand is great! You are being VERY good about not reaching for it – he has to bring it near enough to touch to get the party.
On the tugging up on you – he wasn’t totally comfy yet, so the sitting was a great idea. When you are standing, it is also fine to bend over a bit so he doesn’t have to reach up as high (also a great hamstring stretch for both of you :))
The next step is to basically combine the two of them: sit on the stool, throw the toy, extend your hand and then he can hop up on you to hand you the toy for a party.
The hand cue is the signal to put it in your hand, so you can also clarify for him to only touch you with it when you hand is in the international “gimme” position – that way you can start with some stimulus control. When he gets really good at bringing it back and putting it in your hand, you can do a few reps where you tuck your hands into your pocket or behind your back or flat on your stomach, and he can either hold the toy til you present the hand or he can drop it on cue. And keep going with the non-toy objects: retrieving is just a great concept to work through in general!!This is looking great! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi there!
>>I know the things we’re doing in this class can help.
Yes, in a way… but most of the things in this class are operant-based, which means he has to make a decision. I was thinking about him, and I don’t think he is making a decision in these moments, I think it is reflexive so we need to look at solutions from the reflexive conditioning angle, rather than operant conditioning.
>>You can also mix in loose leash walking with TONS of rewards – maybe on a head halter?” I’ve tried a head halter, but a double leash front clip harness seems to work better. With tons of rewards he still walks and stares at the leaves.
Yes, feel free to post a video, but this is part of why I think we need a different approach. You are an expert dog trainer, and with tons of rewards – not much behavior change. That means we are barking up the wrong tree LOL!
>> The beginning of the walks are so frustrating. It’s like keeping hold of a bull, but by the end it becomes a walk in the park with him checking in with me.
So it is something about arousal levels in the early stages, then as the arousal levels shift into a more optimal state, he is able to make operant decisions that he cannot make earlier in the walk.
” I had tossed his toy over the last jump when he grabbed and ate some leaves with his toy. Then I was setting him back up to do it again, and he grabbed some mulch (my agility yard is all mulch) as 8 was turning him around. Not when he was on the stay.
Have you started any stationing or mat work behavior? I think, for now, in the ‘in between’ moments in a session, we can do some management by sending him to a station or into a crate. He doesn’t know how to NOT eat ll the stuff, so we can avoid it when we aren’t training by just managing. Management isn’t the full solution, of course, but it can sure help when you need to pick up a toy or set a jump bar 🙂
>>>“I know there are some good protocols out there, so I can research them.”. I’m trying to teach him ”Look at That” to use with leaves and plants, etc instead of the usual dogs and moving objects. The Relaxation Protocol is really helping with his relationship with Flurry, but we’ve just started. He was really tired tonight probably over tired, and I tried to have him settle at my feet with a short leash. He sat for a few minutes. The second I put him in his crate, he fell asleep! When I’m busy folding clothes or moving about he entertains himself, but when I’m sitting and trying to relax he is constantly moving about and getting into trouble.>>>
Both of those protocols are top-notch, of course! And I suggest teaching them for sure – with Look At That, have you started it on simpler things that he doesn’t want to ingest? Teach the concept on far less interesting things then it will be MUCH easier to transfer it to, say, mulch and mushrooms 🙂
But those protocols are also both operant conditioning protocols, particularly Look At That. I think we need to approach things with classical conditioning to change that internal state of arousal (while concurrently training concepts away from the triggers). And when we have changed the internal state, he will be much more amenable to operant conditioning – this all fits with Dr. Overall’s protocols, she is really the one who brought this concept to dog training 🙂
So, let’s brainstorm. Other than management when you can’t work the classical side of things… let’s look at leash walks. For the first few moments of the walk, we can settle that internal state with classical conditioning. I don’t know him that well so this example might need to be tweaked based on his reinforcement hierarchy and also thresholds.
Starting him in his car crate:
Out of crate (on leash, no outfox) and you and he stand near car while he licks peanut butter from a kong or chews a bully stick.
After a few seconds of good chewing or licking or sniffing at it… back in car crate.Do this a few times, you might notice a change in his eyes/pupils, ears, breathing/Resp Rate, tail set, muscle tension, etc. When you see the change, we can add other things. THis might take one or two short sessions or a few weeks 🙂
You can add things like:
you are moving while he continues to lick
You are moving while he continues to chew
duration to your moving and walking together (still using CC though)then we will gradually be able to install the operant behaviors like LLW and LAT.
What do you think?
>>Sorry, I know this isn’t part of the class, but I’m looking for solutions everywhere and needed to vent
It is a tremendously important training challenge and I am on board to talk about it and try to come up with solutions!!!
T
