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Hi there!
I think this session went pretty well – part of the lack of speed was the small-ish space, and part of it was that she is still learning to be comfortable with the pressure of you also running. So when you win, tease her a bit and reset very quickly for another race without giving her the toy, so she can channel that excitement into whipping you on the next rest – and that is exactly what she did. Yay! I bet when you try this in a bigger space, she will smoke you. Definitely remember the tease-then-reset when you win – if she gets the toy even if you win, she won’t have a lot of incentive to beat you to it (also known as driving ahead :)) You can also play with higher value items, like throwing a meatball or a toy that makes her wild 🙂 She is off to a great start! Fingers crossed she had a great vet appointment 🙂T
I have heard terrific reviews on the Pet Tutor! It works better than the MM, it is an easier shape to use in different situations, uses different types of treats, and doesn’t have that loud clanging whirring beeping that some dogs are afraid of. The folks who have it say it is like the MM but better by a mile. I personally haven’t purchased one because the price was a bit cuckoo when I checked last and my MM doesn’t break down as often. My pup loves the MM noises and in the rare moments when it isn’t working correctly, she just smacks it until I get there to fix it LOL!!! But some dogs do NOT like the MM and the reviews I hear on the Pet Tutor is that those dogs do indeed like the Pet Tutor.
Plus it comes in a better color, and that is important 🙂
T
Hi there! Hope you had a great week!!
On the first video:
She is definitely excited to see those treats!! LOL!! Her little tap dancing feet were adorable. On these reps, she was perfect *after* she tried to snag the cookies the first time. Yes, you were super quick about closing your hand, but we can add a level for her to get her to offer self-control immediately rather than ‘test the waters’ 🙂 and try to snag the treats. Here is a little descriptions and 2 videos (turn up the sound for explanation on the videos):
Here is an additional challenge for you: the first moment of self-control is also the most important moment (in real life) because we aren’t going to be able to close our hand on everything 🙂 Make this a traveling game: with a handful of treats, show her the open hand. If she says “oh thanks, I will take that” and you close the hand, have a good chuckle and change to a new spot in the room (staying engaged, happy, telling her to come with you… but no treats). Then show her the open hand in a new location. If she tries to snag the cookie again, repeat the process (close hand, engage while moving to a new location). She will get rewarded if she can offer self-control the first time, rather than after you have to close your hand. The moving to a new location delivers a bit of a response cost. And, by moving to a new location, the games takes on more of a ‘get it right the first time’ element rather than a ‘you get 2 chances’ element.Here are 2 demos with my Nacho, who had ZERO self-control as a pup:
https://youtu.be/BtA3UvBsNssHer self-control on the toy is looking really terrific! You can add in standing up so the toy moves away, then rewarding her for not leaping up at it. This will most commonly be used in resets between reps in training – so be sure to include a lot of these ‘get it’ cues as rewards for the great release and self-control on the toy!!
Cookie recalls:
She was really good about ignoring the toy on the ground to do some fast & furious recalls (and also coming off of any cookie scent in the grass). Nice! You can smooth out the mechanics to start the game (hold her, then take the leash off, drop the toy, throw the treat – without being held, she wasn’t entirely sure of what to focus on at first).You can swap values on this game: have her run past cookies on the ground (in a sealed bag at first :)) as the distraction – it is possible the cookies are a higher level distraction? And you can also take this game on the road to present other things that might be distracting: running past people, recalling to you while a dog is nearby (stationary at first, then moving, then building up to running agility!). What types of things does she find distracting? We can work them all in 🙂
Nice work!!
TracyHi there!
Yes, the self-control games need some maintenance for all of our pups LOL!!!
When you have the treats in your hand, keep the cookie hand open while you deliver the reward – it amplifies the self-control challenge.
She ‘remembered’ pretty quickly in this session. So, here is an additional challenge for you: the first moment of self-control is also the most important moment (in real life) because we aren’t going to be able to close our hand on everything 🙂 Make this a traveling game: with a handful of treats, show her the open hand. If she says “oh thanks, I will take that” and you close the hand, have a good chuckle and change to a new spot in the room (staying engaged, happy, telling her to come with you… but no treats). Then show her the open hand in a new location. If she tries to snag the cookie again, repeat the process (close hand, engage while moving to a new location). She will get rewarded if she can offer self-control the first time, rather than after you have to close your hand. The moving to a new location delivers a bit of a response cost. And, by moving to a new location, the games takes on more of a ‘get it right the first time’ element rather than a ‘you get 4 chances’ element.Here is a video with Nacho (who had ZERO self-control as a pup and now can run past pepperoni pizza 4 feet away at trials):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtA3UvBsNss
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GebavUK8eY
(turn on the sound for explanation)That first recall was using bacon? Niiiiice 🙂 The toy recall also looks good, You can build on the recalls a bit by having her facing away from the direction you are running, focusing on what you have thrown – and you can start running as soon as you let her go. The verbals would be continuing to say get it get it get it (til she gets it) then her name for the recall. It will be a great way to introduce countermotion and balance the value of chasing you versus going to do something.
Hi there!!
>>one of my not-so-secret favorite things in some of the border collies I’ve gotten the chance to run is that thing where you tug and release the toy to them, and they immediately shove it back in your hands. I’m easily excited by little things like that:)
That is a great thing to be excited about! It also falls into the ‘be careful what you wish for’ category, as many BC mommas also get toys and balls pushed into their hands when they are sleeping, eating, wearing nice clothing, into their crotch, and also toys dropping into coffee cups, on computer keyboards and into wine glasses LOL!!! I recommend teaching a cue to mean “thank you, please go lie down with your toy” LOL!!!!
He is doing a great job here on the video and your timing of getting excited when he puts it in your hand is great! You are being VERY good about not reaching for it – he has to bring it near enough to touch to get the party.
On the tugging up on you – he wasn’t totally comfy yet, so the sitting was a great idea. When you are standing, it is also fine to bend over a bit so he doesn’t have to reach up as high (also a great hamstring stretch for both of you :))
The next step is to basically combine the two of them: sit on the stool, throw the toy, extend your hand and then he can hop up on you to hand you the toy for a party.
The hand cue is the signal to put it in your hand, so you can also clarify for him to only touch you with it when you hand is in the international “gimme” position – that way you can start with some stimulus control. When he gets really good at bringing it back and putting it in your hand, you can do a few reps where you tuck your hands into your pocket or behind your back or flat on your stomach, and he can either hold the toy til you present the hand or he can drop it on cue. And keep going with the non-toy objects: retrieving is just a great concept to work through in general!!This is looking great! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi there!
>>I know the things we’re doing in this class can help.
Yes, in a way… but most of the things in this class are operant-based, which means he has to make a decision. I was thinking about him, and I don’t think he is making a decision in these moments, I think it is reflexive so we need to look at solutions from the reflexive conditioning angle, rather than operant conditioning.
>>You can also mix in loose leash walking with TONS of rewards – maybe on a head halter?” I’ve tried a head halter, but a double leash front clip harness seems to work better. With tons of rewards he still walks and stares at the leaves.
Yes, feel free to post a video, but this is part of why I think we need a different approach. You are an expert dog trainer, and with tons of rewards – not much behavior change. That means we are barking up the wrong tree LOL!
>> The beginning of the walks are so frustrating. It’s like keeping hold of a bull, but by the end it becomes a walk in the park with him checking in with me.
So it is something about arousal levels in the early stages, then as the arousal levels shift into a more optimal state, he is able to make operant decisions that he cannot make earlier in the walk.
” I had tossed his toy over the last jump when he grabbed and ate some leaves with his toy. Then I was setting him back up to do it again, and he grabbed some mulch (my agility yard is all mulch) as 8 was turning him around. Not when he was on the stay.
Have you started any stationing or mat work behavior? I think, for now, in the ‘in between’ moments in a session, we can do some management by sending him to a station or into a crate. He doesn’t know how to NOT eat ll the stuff, so we can avoid it when we aren’t training by just managing. Management isn’t the full solution, of course, but it can sure help when you need to pick up a toy or set a jump bar 🙂
>>>“I know there are some good protocols out there, so I can research them.”. I’m trying to teach him ”Look at That” to use with leaves and plants, etc instead of the usual dogs and moving objects. The Relaxation Protocol is really helping with his relationship with Flurry, but we’ve just started. He was really tired tonight probably over tired, and I tried to have him settle at my feet with a short leash. He sat for a few minutes. The second I put him in his crate, he fell asleep! When I’m busy folding clothes or moving about he entertains himself, but when I’m sitting and trying to relax he is constantly moving about and getting into trouble.>>>
Both of those protocols are top-notch, of course! And I suggest teaching them for sure – with Look At That, have you started it on simpler things that he doesn’t want to ingest? Teach the concept on far less interesting things then it will be MUCH easier to transfer it to, say, mulch and mushrooms 🙂
But those protocols are also both operant conditioning protocols, particularly Look At That. I think we need to approach things with classical conditioning to change that internal state of arousal (while concurrently training concepts away from the triggers). And when we have changed the internal state, he will be much more amenable to operant conditioning – this all fits with Dr. Overall’s protocols, she is really the one who brought this concept to dog training 🙂
So, let’s brainstorm. Other than management when you can’t work the classical side of things… let’s look at leash walks. For the first few moments of the walk, we can settle that internal state with classical conditioning. I don’t know him that well so this example might need to be tweaked based on his reinforcement hierarchy and also thresholds.
Starting him in his car crate:
Out of crate (on leash, no outfox) and you and he stand near car while he licks peanut butter from a kong or chews a bully stick.
After a few seconds of good chewing or licking or sniffing at it… back in car crate.Do this a few times, you might notice a change in his eyes/pupils, ears, breathing/Resp Rate, tail set, muscle tension, etc. When you see the change, we can add other things. THis might take one or two short sessions or a few weeks 🙂
You can add things like:
you are moving while he continues to lick
You are moving while he continues to chew
duration to your moving and walking together (still using CC though)then we will gradually be able to install the operant behaviors like LLW and LAT.
What do you think?
>>Sorry, I know this isn’t part of the class, but I’m looking for solutions everywhere and needed to vent
It is a tremendously important training challenge and I am on board to talk about it and try to come up with solutions!!!
T
On the tugging video:
yes, he is doing really well! He really seems to want to eat this particular toy too LOL! The toy was nice and low, and also pretty active, so he was happy to engage. He was doing the ‘floppy puppy’ thing which is fine, because it is super cute and many puppies outgrow it (boohoo). At this stage, definitely take your tugging on the road to different places – bring a couple of his absolute favorite tuggies and see if he can play in different places! Throwing the toy around and also getting him to chase you as you run around will help engage him in the more difficult places. No worries if he can’t play everywhere yet, that is normal – at this point, we are just looking to expand his tugging horizons.
Nice job on these!!
TracySelf-control games on the floor:
This is a good next step for him! You can try to be quicker to reward the first couple of backing off of the pile – when you uncover the pile, you can have your other hand nearby to quickly toss a treat to him. That can help prevent the frustration where he comes back and digs at your hand (ouch!)
It was a little harder getting back to the toy initially here (perhaps because of the cookie smells on the ground, he was sniffing around) so you can move to a new spot to tug so there are fewer cookie smells.
As with the previous video, he came back after the tug break with a higher rate of success – cool!!! One thing to watch for on this game and the cookies in the hand game is that you reward for things other than backing up 🙂 You can wait for a stand or sit, so he doesn’t think he should offer backing up for everything 🙂
And he did have more trouble at the very end getting on the toy – this might be partially due to the good smells and partially due to the difficulty of the self-control games. Either way, you can help him play by running around and moving to a new spot and also throwing the toys (I believe he really likes that) to get great engagement here too.T
Hi! Great seeing you yesterday!
Let’s get back to puppy videos 🙂
Nice tugging to start here! It gets him really excited which is a great way to play self-control games. When you make the transition, the game starts as soon as the cookies appear, so he was trying to go for the cookies immediately LOL!! I loved the frozen moment at 1:25ish when you closed your hand and his nose was soooo close! This was a hard game for him ideed. But he had a great ‘move away’ moment at about 2:00 amd then backed up again at about 2:15. Yay! And I am happy to see he went right back to the toy. He got back into the self-control immediately after the play break – that was worthy of a jackpot! He does offer his paw a lot, perhaps you’ve been working on paw tricks? He did really well on this 2nd part of the session, so on the next session you can change a little something: new location, different treats, put the treats on the ground – one of these little changes and see how it goes! Nice work!Tracy
Hi! Nice update!!!! Yes, recognizing any struggles the dog might have is a good thing for the list, to be able to add more support.
And on this:
>> when we finished one of my friends said holy cow I didn’t know you could get that kind of distance with him that was awesome. I said thanks and almost let mr. negative come out of my mouthYay for you! That is a great friend to offer up such a great positive, and double hooray for you saying thank you and not letting any negatives out. This is a big moment!!!
Sounds like the boys did well and you had some really lovely runs! Hope the rest of the weekend is super fun too!Tracy
Hi there!
He was a super good boy on his cookie recalls outside without his head gear! Great job using countermotion by running the other way while he was heading towards the cookie. I think you might have run out of room at the end of the recall because you ended up facing him or even moving back towards him – so if there is more room, keep running 🙂 If not, hold still for a few heartbeats before running for the recall, so you can still be running when he reaches you.This is a good game to help teach him that outdoors doesn’t mean eating things off the ground 🙂 You can also mix in loose leash walking with TONS of rewards – maybe on a head halter? It is important to help him understand not to eat things… when he grabbed the mulch, was he in a stay and grabbed it, so was he in between reps? It will be interesting to hear more about it. I know there are some good protocols out there, so I can research them.
The backing up session – of course the good session isn’t on video, LOL!!!!! On this session, you can help him more by tossing the cookie more, rolling it between his front feet (more like what you did at the very end). I bet you can jump start it as well but holding him around the belly (with his head facing behind you) so you can drop the cookie a little further back, and the holding will prevent him from going all the weary through, and then you can get even more steps backwards. I bet he will also pick it up if you try shaping it while sitting on the floor, he is a smart shaper!
Nice work here!
TracyHi!
So this game was actually pretty hard for him, based on his reactions! The first few reps went ok but he had a bit of trouble really playing, so stick with this a bit longer- use a more obvious treat so he can snag it instantly and then drive to you, and then keep the toy really active to get really strong tug – he was tending to let go pretty quickly. Ideally you can also call him sooner, and a more obvious treat will help that too- start to call even before he full gets to the treat.
Another way you can make the treat more obvious is to hold him longer, let the treat land, let him lock on, then tell him to get it.The bag of treats was really hard! True, he didn’t run to it, but he had trouble tugging and also getting the other treat. So, I’d say it was too hard for now 🙂 start with just getting more tugging in the presence of the food distraction, starting further away and keeping the tug really active: throw it, lunge it around, run and let him chase it, for example. He didn’t seem to like the physical play (like when you were tapping him) when he was trying to figure it out, so more chasing of the toy will help. And when he can chase it and really latch on in the presence of the food bag, then I think you can go back to the recalls. It won’t take long for him to figure it out. Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
Yes, these games generally require maintenance so keep them on the regular rotation. One thing to think about here is keeping his success rate higher – he had a decent number of failures, so try to have the cookies further away and reward more frequently, adding the difficult challenges more gradually. Also, I like that you are using a get it cue – just be sure that you don’t put ‘ok’ in front of it (or any of the other releases) . You had ok get it and ok come, which can be confusing because the ok might be what he is listening to rather than the get it or come.
One other idea is to change locations more frequently – it keeps the game interesting if you can get him to earn a few rewards in one place, then change rooms and surprise him with another round of the game, and so on. That element of new place and surprise also help us transfer the self-control to new locations and real life more easily.
Nice work here! And nice transitions to toy play!!
THey there!
He did a really good job, the cookie tray is a great choice in terms of texture and noise potential!
On the toy tosses – yes, nice retrieve, good boy! I think you can add words to tell him when you want him to go retrieve it versus when it is dead 🙂 for example, tell him to get it on the tosses when you want him to go get it. But when you are just putting it down and don’t want him to get it, let’s come up with a different word to tell him it is out of play. Maybe “all done” or something? This can help him focus back on the shaping and not try to get the toy again or watch it.
On the shaping, he was watching you a lot so you can tweak the reward placement to encourage him to look at the tray – either drop it on the tray or turn his head away to deliver the treat. You can also move further from the tray so he has to look at the tray more to get on it and can’t watch you AND get on the tray LOL!!
You can also add something under the tray to make it move and make it noisy, like a pen or wadded up paper. That is a great pre-teeter opportunity 🙂
Nice transitions from the toy to the shaping and from the shaping to the toy! Great job here! Let me know what you think 🙂
TracyHi!
You make really good points here about perception! It is all so interesting. And yes, it is important to let go of what happened in the past and only focus on the run in front of you: yes, learn from the previous run but don’t dwell on it or obsess! One of the joys of agility is that it is an up-and-down ride and some runs are great and some can be train wrecks LOL!!>>So since this seems to be a them on this discussion for me anyway. Do you think that having many of these mental preparedness skills down/understood/ applied gives off a certain perception to others??
Or would you say that it all goes back to the beginning of teaching the dog how to do obstacle, read your body, building their confidence in understanding , the whole agility foundation from the beginning??All of the above? To be successful in agility, we need all of this: a well-trained dog will not be successful for the most part if the handler has no mental game. And handlers will great mental games will not be successful for the most part, if the dog is not well-trained. There are always more things to work on in both the dog training/handling and the mental aspect. Agility is a complex, difficult sport that keeps evolving, so sometimes we feel like we are scrambling to keep up LOL!!! But that is also part of the fun 🙂
T
