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Good morning!
> It is hard for me to understand pushing on his line, when I feel like I am so far away. >
He reads the line of your motion and follows it really well. When you were pushing on his line, you were moving a bit sideways towards the wing. When he was successful, you were moving forward on a straighter line, parallel to the line he would have to take. Very subtle for sure! If you play in slow motion, it is easier to see.
>If the rain ever stops I will try again while connecting better and thinking about my position.>
At this point, I am not sure if the rain will ever stop LOL!!!
> I am very interested in some of your brain camp videos, will they be available to purchase later?>
Yes, they are all available at any time. If any say registration is closed, let me know and we will get you in 🙂
> I have to pay my Real Estate Tax, and you know VA likes to tax!>
Yep – my tax bills are sitting in envelopes right next to me right now, to be dropped off today. My county LOVES to tax all the things!! Sigh.
Tracy
Hi! It sounds like the UKI thing was very fun!! Bummer about the rain though.
The reps here were really good! The angle of the jump was very slight so he was truly going to a backside. You were heading to the center of the bar by the last rep, so you can add in moving even further over to be able to add the German turn exits as well in the next session. And you can run more as long as you stay connected and on the parallel path.
Nice work! Fingers crossed for nice weather ahead!
Tracy
Hi! It is definitely a tricky drill!
This went well at the beginning, no problem at all getting the turn aways on the wing past the tunnel! Overall, you can connect more by looking at him and using a little less high arm especially as he exits the tunnel. When he needs more connection, you can see him looking at you to double check the info. Or he misses an obstacle, like the tunnel at 2:05.
On the part where he was either going to the wrong side of the wing on the other side of the tunnel or back into the tunnel: that was just as bit of motion and timing that needed adjustment.
When he went to the other side of the wing at :44 & :57 & 1:32 – what happened there was that you pushed in sideways to his line. He was coming to the correct side of the wing and then your motion pushed him back out – he even looked at you to double check before moving back out, good boy! Be sure to reward if you stop, or keep going then reward like you did at 1:02 (that was great!)
On the reps at :52 and 1:49 – you were moving on a much better line but then you were too late turning him back out to the wing, so he took the tunnel.
When it went well, like at 1:16 – you turned parallel to the line you wanted and moved forward on it, and turned him back out to the wing before he got past you or locked onto the tunnel. Nice!!
So when you tackle these again, ramp up your eye contact with him, and be careful not to push into his line on the turn aways, and it will all be smooooth and fast!
Great job!
TracyGood morning!
>Sorry I’m having trouble posting on our original thread. I keep getting this error message – A problem repeatedly occurred on “https://agility-
u.com/forums/topic/laura-rose-and-zest/”.>Sorry it is being a pain! Starting a new thread is great. For tech problem solving… what device do you use? We have seen this before when iPhones/iPads feel the threads are too big and there has been a recent iOs update. Apple products don’t always love to talk to other platforms and then it smooths out as they work out the kinks in the new updates and also as the platforms we use here catch up to the Apple updates. Let me know and I will pass it along to tech.
Back to the video! Nice session here!
The serps went well – it looks like you were closer to the jump and he had no questions. I was going to suggest getting ahead of him but then you started doing it! Super!
On the first attempt at being ahead at :17 you were ahead AND faster so he did not serp and you gave good feedback of “that was not it, sir” 🙂 Then you were ahead and NOT as fast at :20 and he got it… then you were ahead and REALLY fast at :23 and he was perfect. YAY!
For the backsides: as he is solidifying the verbal, adding a parallel path of motion forward to the backside before moving along the serp line will help a lot. What I mean by that is as he is exiting the wrap wing, you are moving forward towards the entry wing of the backside for a couple of steps to set the line then as you see him heading towards the backside, you then turn and move through the serp line.
On the reps where he took the front of the jump and not the back (like at ):30 you wwere already turned to the serp line as he exited the wing, so he took the front as he was following the line of your motion & shoulders.
Compare to :40-:41 and :52 where you moved parallel to his line to the backside as he exited the wing wrap for a couple of steps before turning to the serp and he got it nicely there. You can also see that parallel line of motion for a few steps very clearly at :48! So definitely keep adding the parallel line of motion to cue the backside. And you can also very slightly angle the jump towards him as he exits the wing, so it is easy to see the back and harder to get to the front 🙂
Side note: he did REALLY well when you told him he was incorrect and to try again. I didn’t see him doing any change in arousal – he just said ok and tried again (unless you edited out any madness haha!) That is great that he was resilient to being told “nope not it” a couple of times and he didn’t change arousal state. You were also really good about not allowing too much failure, and helping him when he had a question by adjusting the handling.
Great job!!
TracyGood morning!
>Ok good, we have one more week of you reassuring me when I feel like I’m just a terrible dog trainer lol>
Ha! You are a great dog trainer, look how amazing she is already!!
Even when class is over, send me FB messages any time you need reminders that you are doing great 🙂 I think you probably need more of the Surviving Adolescence support because the training skills are totally where they should be.
>Because we had that one good session from my last post and then yesterday it felt like maybe we haven’t learned anything the past 6-7 months.>
I think you are seeing the joys of adolescent brain development (the ‘joys’ is sarcastic, of course LOL!) They know something one day… and the next they do not especially if there is a context change. And their brains are more on alert for those environmental changes (has to do with the evolutionary development making them more independent at this age, which means they are more alert to environmental changes in order to survive independently because the amygdala is driving the bus and the pre-frontal cortex is not developed enough yet to make good executive decisions). The weaves next to the tunnel was a HUGE context change for her developing brain so she couldn’t quite do the tunnel at speed and while ignoring the weaves. I think you did a great job of breaking it down for her and not allowing too much failure, and not showing outward frustration.
By the end of the video, she was absolutely fabulous with the skills you wanted to work on so the session was a win in 2 ways:
-a bit of work on the skills you wanted to play with, and those went really well
-a lot of generalization exposure to help her find the tunnel even with something different/weird right there (also went really well!)Turns out after working the generalization, she was able to produce the skills for the starfish game PERFECTLY.
> wound up feeling pretty frustrated that it took so much work and we spent very little time on the main focus of the session. Two steps forward, one step back I guess.>
Yeah, in the moment it was probably annoying AF to have to reset the plans for the session… but also very typical of life with adolescent dogs LOL!! I see it is only steps forward here, no steps back, because you had to teach her an important generalization/discrimination skill even though it was not part of the original plan. And you were really terrific in how you broke it down and helped her out – that was the best part of the session even though you were probably annoyed inside your head LOL!! And after working the generalization/discrimination skill, it turned out you didn’t need to work hard at all to get the handling stuff going because that all looked lovely 🙂
Nice work here 🙂
Tracy
Good morning!
>Ok, I did it! A whole handling session and I used all the right verbals! Super simple, just the smiley face with either wrapping or doing the race track around. >
Yay! That is great! It is a useful habit because it will rewire your brain to the point where the correct verbals are automatic. I was originally motivated to do this because I was getting so annoyed at myself for messing up the words LOL!!! But it is great for learning and also made for far better runs with the dogs, even with puppy exercises.
I do this with my adult dogs too, working up to full courses – mainly because I don’t get a chance to work them in classes at all and rarely in seminars, so I need to be able to really ‘know’ them in order to trial successfully – I run the walk throughs and video tape it, then run the dog and overlay the first run (with the dog) with the last walk through. Incredibly insightful about what we humans are doing on course, before we do it on course 🙂 Helps with timing, connection, etc.
>I DID run/walk each of the 4 sequences that I ran with full verbals, including the correct intended reward marker, while she was still in the house (after I mowed the yard and set up the obstacles). I wasn’t sure walk/running all 4 sequences, then running all 4 would be as effective as walking each one then running it, then walking another etc but in this case it worked. >
It is fantastic practice for when you are at a bigger UKI event, for example, and have to walk multiple courses before running any of them.
>I’ll need to come up with something (ex pen and just listen to her be mad?) while I walk-run for those times I don’t have to go out and mow the lawn first? Pretty sure if I just left her in the house and went out there she would still yell about it. I can put her in the car (it’s where I put the non-working dogs while I am out in the yard with the others) but it’s very far from the agility yard.>
I often put the ‘working’ dog in the car, or leave them in the house – that is all good for my brain because I have to retain the walk through for a little longer, just like at a trial. And it gives me some time to connect with the dog before running the sequence (physical and mental warm up).
On the video: Fantastic session! The most interesting thing to me here was that you were SUPER connected and appeared not to rush at all… even with Beat going fast fast FAST!!! 99% of it was spot on perfect in terms of physical cues and verbal cues. She really had no questions when you did that, and was able to go really fast (wowza!) and also turn really tight 🙂
There was one small blooper at :54 – As she was passing you to the wing, your head was turned looking at the next line and that was too much countermotion for her, for now. I think as she gets more experienced, it will be perfectly fine to turn your head that early.
For now, she needed a little more connection support, meaning your eyes following her as she passes you and heads to the wing. That is what you did on the next rep (last rep) and she was perfect. Looking at the ‘landing spot’ (or where landing would be on when using a wing only) really supports the commitment.
I grabbed screenshots so you can see the difference:
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1K6o3_slzmShlrWicu_CaXLWAgW_Wm-MyxBHH_KbCUNs/edit?usp=sharing
The tunnel-wrap session also went really well! You followed the mantra of “help as much as needed but as little as possible” and she did great!
She is so funny, almost saying “I GOT IT” when she I convinced she has processed the verbal correctly – she was standing still for the first moment or two of the verbal and then would tense her muscles as if asking for you to let her go. Kind of like hitting the buzzer on a game show: I know the answer!
When she was not a sure (like the first ski after the tunnel at 1:34) – we did not see any I GOT IT body language. But on the next rep at 1:52 and on the next rep, watch her hind end: LET ME GO, I GOT IT lol. You can see it on the tunnel reps too.
So that might be good & helpful feedback from her: if you don’t see or feel that moment of muscle tension, she might be guessing 🙂 So keep repeating the cue til she gives you the I GOT IT moment, then let her move.
You can add the other side and also the advanced level of tunnel then wrap all in one rep, and then tunnel then tunnel then wrap all in one rep too 🙂
>turning left and ski and tunnel are more different than tight and tunnel>
You can make them sound different: for the wraps, say the verbal quietly and fast, emphasizing the “t” sound: TiTiTiTiTight. For the tunnel verbal, extend it and yell it 🙂 emphasizing the UH in tunnel: TUUUHNNEL TUUUHNEL etc. That will sound very very different and I bet she does great.
>So overall I was happy with both of these sessions.>
Absolutely – really great stuff here! And also, just enough failure to be informational for humans and dog 🙂 I think there was one error in each session, which is basically what we want. SUPER!
>Sunday 5/25 is the last day of submissions? >
June 3rd! Have fun!
Tracy
Good morning!
I think he did really well with these distances! His bounces looked powerful and when he needed to add a stride, he did really well with that too!My only suggestion is to have the reward on the ground rather than thrown from your hand: that will keep him looking low and forward (he was starting to lift his head between jumps 2 and 3 looking up at you). So if you have the toy attached to a long one or long toy then use it as a moving target, you can help him keep his head low and get even more power.
For the distances between jumps 2 and 3: you can start to increase them more. For example, the next session can be something along the lines of 8 feet then 12 feet then 16 feet then 12 feet then 8 feet between jumps 2 and 3. Let me know how he does with that!
Great job!
Tracy
Good morning!
Really nice session here! This game is challenging and you & Beat had lovely runs!!
>I think this is just another example of me having too many words/cues and not keeping them straight. I even walked/talked it out before I ran it and still didn’t realize it was the wrong word.>
Two thoughts for you here:
For your walk through, the best way to be able to get the verbals during the run, is to run during the walk through (nerd moment: state-dependent memory). If you are in one state (walking) during encoding and a different state (running) during recall, it is harder to recall the verbals. But if you are in the same state (running and running), it is soooo much easier. In the learning stages of verbals (human learning LOL) I always have people run their walk throughs and it makes things a lot easier.
>she skips the jump wing and goes for the tunnel on one start line and one other time on that jump in sequence>
Both of those were conflicting indicators (handling versus verbal) where the handling info overrode the verbal (and the verbal was not salient enough to really help). They were at:
:29 where was in a stay, there was not enough support from the physical cues there (conflicting indicator – verbal said one thing, body said something else) – you said one quiet verbal cue then immediately turned your body away without any physical indication to the wing. The physical indication said “tunnel” and that overrode the one quiet verbal.
You have now entered the stage of her training where all of this is rewardable because there is a 99% chance she was correct. So better to just reward her as you set up for the next rep, than to withhold reward which can be frustrating – you can see it on her face where she was like “but I did it right…” The cookie for the sit came about 9 seconds later so it did not correlate to the handling.
Compare to :44 where you cued her to look at the wing before the release then stepped to it, so she went to it beautifully.
The other spot was at 1:11 – she didn’t go to the wing at 1:11 because your physical cues/connection turned away from the line: you turned towards the tunnel. Yes, there was a high arm out in the direction of the wing but all of the other cues said tunnel. There was only one hup cue versus a ton of physical input.
Compare to the very last rep where your physical cue was sooo much clearer and connected to her. It is a hard line and she got it because you cued it clearly.
So the verbals for now do need to be supported with physical cues, it takes a long long time for verbals to be so independent that our bodies can say something different and they cue off of one verbal cue.
There was a whole lot of really nice work here:
Nice timing of starting the cues before she went into the tunnel, that really helped you get the tandems after the tunnel. Big Click/Treat for you!!!
The sequence :57 – 1:11 was GREAT! Same with the sequence 1:20-1:27, look at the distance you are getting on the tandem! That is going to help with the threadle wraps!
Those moments all had verbals and physical cues working together, and looked fantastic!
>And one other tendency I’ve noticed coming on with her that I’ve noticed with many of my previous dogs (so clearly it’s something that I’m training into them) was her looking around on the start and winding up fixated on that bird outside the fence on that last rep. It seems to be a thing that I ask dog to sit, start to lead out and they just start looking around until I come to a stop and then they pay attention again (or get distracted by BIRD!) Something I’m doing to cause this?>
Interesting observation! Yes, we all train the same things into our dogs LOL!! My guess is that you can be more unpredictable on the start line & lead outs. You might be too predictable, meaning the rhythm is always the same: lead out, take a while, release. So if you vary that, they will watch you more. Sometimes release immediately! Sometimes run to the lead out position. Sometimes throw a reward back as lead out. Change the timing of the release and reward, plus change the connection (sometimes looking at them, or being goofy as you walk away or saying “ready ready”). The surprise factor will be very motivating to all of them, to help them watch you the whole time 🙂
Great job here!
Tracy
Good morning!
Really excellent session here!!! He did GREAT with the toy on the ground directly on his line – only one oops moment but otherwise he seemed to ignore it really well. He is making huge strides to being able to work with a clear head/optimized arousal with a toy and a lot of motion. Yay!!Using the toy + food might be the sweet spot for him: the food allows for some precision in the training and lots of quick reps, and using the toy keeps things exciting for him and motivating. He did great here with both.
He read the handling really well, and the FCs on the wing were nice and tight even with you moving. One suggestion on the serps which will make them harder is to stay closer to the jump. You can be about one arm’s length away from the serp jump, which will make I a little more challenging for him to drive in and not run parallel to you. Since he might find it harder (especially with the toy on the. ground) you can dial back your motion and walk the first couple of times and see how he does. If he is fine with it, you can add back your running 🙂
Great job!
Tracy
Hi!
The jump grid is looking good! She was a little too far from jump 1 on the first rep, so she foot-tapped before it and that caused her to be a little less powerful and a little short over jumps 2 and 3. She was in a better spot on the other reps, and was very balanced on those. Nice! You can now add the accordion grid 🙂>Had a great training session for get out. Never hit record. The errors are the wraps. She seems to have lost the drive to do them. My guess is the grip. She was wrapped when I did them so I may rebuild them this week but she did completely understand the actual cues >
Bummer about the video blooper but I am glad she did really well with the game! Yay!
If she is trotting to the wraps, then yes she is probably just being careful which we don’t want her to have to be concerned with. You can get her outside on grass so she can move fast! The weather is good so it is a good time of year for working outside.
For wrapping inside, you can include her big pad (not just stopper pads/hocks) in the wrapping, so she has extra grip for the wraps.
Nice work here!
Tracy
Good morning!
>Yes the barking seems to only be for food. He seems to get frustrated working for food vs the toy. Not sure why?>
It is entirely possible that food is not a reinforcement in his view, it is more of an obligation for him (he will take it because it is part of the work). The toy and the action are the real rewards. So you can use food, but follow the food with the toy as the true reward (which will also build food into more of a reward, hopefully :))
>Another issue we have is when there’s a toy on the ground he seems to always have at least half his brain on the toy and is just guessing until I release him to it. I’m not really sure how to get him to think in those situations.>
I think sessions like this will solve that issue! It was a really strong session – he made no mistakes on the serp, even with you running. When you did the FC on the wing, he had a couple of errors – I think he was watching motion and not the connection on the first oopsie. You did a great job of maintain criteria and also slowing down to help him out.
You can add more and more motion to the FC so he learns to look for connection changes and not just follow motion when the toy is on the ground 🙂 This will help him understand that he should not just find a line to the toy 🙂 And, you can change the position of the toy on the serp line bit by bit: right now it is a bit more on the landing side of the jump, so you can inch it around to the takeoff side to eventually tempt him to run past the jump (but I bet he takes the jump :))
Great job!
TracyHi!
>I may use “focus”, but I don’t use a word for Dellin and that seems to work too, so I may play around with that.>
Totally up to you! I think both can work – adding the verbal might help as these types of openings get more complex in terms of handler position being further from the first jump.
> I did a few reps in the basement this morning with me holding the toy, waiting for him to focus and then throwing it (no video) – it went ok, except he was a bit sticky (probably because I was holding the toy) – he did not always break immediately upon being cued and having the toy thrown. I’ll get some video.>
You can try it with food, which is less of a big visual than the toy would be. Or, you can say ‘break’ then take a step to the jump to affirm the release, as long as the release and the step are not simultaneously.
>When does this class officially end? I was having trouble finding that date when I need to stop posting >
June 3rd! It was in the last email, but all the way down at the bottom so easy to miss, probably.
T
Good morning!
>Looks like it’s about an hour and a half from me so not too far! That would be amazing!!! >
Fantastic! Just send a note here or on Facebook before you feel like coming and I will send the address and the codes to the locks on the gates.
Serps with the toy on the ground are definitely hard! It is basically a proofing game – can the dog find the jump even with the toy right on their line. You did a great job helping him out by dialing back your motion a bit at first a well as having the toy in your hand to help him out.
As you add back more motion, you can angle the jump a bit so a he exits the wing wrap, he can see the bar pretty easily. Your line of motion and handling would be the same as it was here, but finding the jump would be a little easier for him as you run.
Interestingly: no barking here! On the video you posted on 5/20, he was barking on the send to the wing. Was the main difference that there was a toy in play in the session you posted yesterday and food on the other session? He definitely works beautifully for his toy!
You can also add the balance reps of a front cross on the wing wrap, and move to the advanced level of adding a bit of backside challenge! When you do the backside, you can put the wigs on the jump, and use a cone or something as the starting wrap. The wings help the dogs find backsides better.
Great job here!!
TracyHi!
Technically the class is over, but I checked back in to make sure I didn’t miss anything 🙂
>thanks due to that new knee – one of the best things I’ve done for myself. >
That is awesome!!
>That said, he’s clearly faster than I am when he’s on his game. I do run into some long straight lines in his novice courses where he can easily get ahead of me – does not help me with maintaining connection. >
Yes, novice courses are pretty hard with those big long lines. You can approach it like countermotion: send him one way while you run the other way. That can help set up the ‘chase the dad’ that he loves to do.
>My option in this setup would have been a longer lead out to give him more support for the turn in front of the RC, but I could see he had the dog that just ran in front of us on his mind. >
Right! And the other thing that made this course hard was the placement of the ring crew… basically, the line drove him right into the ring crew person after the jump and then after the tunnel. Bleh! It was a good decision to get him off the line fast and he was GREAT about resisting temptation to investigate the other dog. Good boy Coal!!!
I think the last frontier in his training is the combo of ignore the ring crew while there is no food in the ring at all. He can ignore the ring crew. And he can run without food in the ring. You’ve developed both pieces really well! Now… we have to keep putting them together.
Even in class, you can work on the short in and out where he runs a short course, just a few obstacles, out to get a quick reward, then back in for more. He has a ton of really strong skills so I am not concerned about him needing to run big courses or do big handling… it is really about the ignore ring crew + no food in the ring combo. Maybe one of your turns in class can be exclusively devoted to this, where there are ring crew people on the end the line he is on, and no one in the ring has food (we fade it off the instructor now too).
And because that is hard, the other turn or two in class can be devoted to having food in the ring and working on obstacle skills and handling skills.
Keep me posted on his adventures! I might not check in here regularly so feel free to reach out on Facebook!
Have fun 🙂
TracyHi!
He did really well! Working for the toy was super easy. He did look forward when the toy was not there but the marker/release confused him. Search did not mean move forward to look for a cookie 🙂 So, no problem: you can use your jump release (I think it is break, based on what you did with the toy) and then throw the cookie. You can mark the cookie toss with search if that means to go get the cookie but the break release means to move forward and take the jump. Also, you can use a toy for this too: hold the cue, indicate the forward focus, then release, then throw the toy.
You can add in changing your position to be more lateral!
> I also realize that I need a different word – “look look” is my threadle wrap cue>
Yes, a different verbal is on tap. What about ‘focus’ or something similar? He seemed to be using your hand point as the cue here, which is fine, maybe you don’t need a verbal at all! Just be as clean as possible so he doesn’t break on the hand cue like he did on the last rep.
Great job here!
Tracy
