[Tracy Sklenar]

Hi! Nice work with the week 8 games!

The starfish is looking really strong. You can spread the wings out as much as room permits, so both of you can try this with more speed 🙂 Your connection looked great throughout!

2 details about verbals:

For the soft turns on the tunnel exits, use those verbals before she goes in. For example, the right verbal at :02, :19, :34, & :52 were happening when she was already in the tunnel, so she exited looked for you more than knowing to turn right. You can start the soft turn verbal when she at least 6 feet before entering the tunnel, so she will exit already turned the new direction.

The tandem turns were looking really good! On some reps you used the turn cue for the wing and on other reps, you used her name then the turn cue. She looks at you more when you called her name than she did with the turn cues, so just using the turn cues should get less looking at you. If she was exiting looking straight, you can call her name before she enters the tunnel followed by the turn cue when she exits to get the smoothest line.

When she was on your left, you had a pretty direct line to the tandem wing and she looked great! When she was on your right, you pulled away more – she was very successful but pulling away more widens the line – I don’t think you need to pull away as much 🙂

Backside proofing is also going really well! At this stage of learning, she did best when you were a couple of steps ahead, connected and on a parallel line (like at 1:38 and 2:03 for example). The reps at 1:50, 1:55 and 2:01 were good too, just be sure to make the big connection so that she has a very smooth line to the backside.

On the backside reps, try to drop the reward in closer to her landing spot and not anywhere near you 🙂 That way you can do all of the different crazy backside handling and she will lock onto the bar rather than your motion, which will get great commitment.

That will also help with the countermotion – you can
face forward more as you are moving past the bar, almost like you are heading to the takeoff side without doing a cross or side change. You were helping her commitment with a FC on the landing side, so now you can add more independence by just moving forward and looking back behind you to the landing spot and throwing the reward there too.

Accordion grid – she had some questions here when you were in different positions for each of the first few reps. She went down the line to the MM but was not really powering through, because she was trying to figure out your position. So for now, since we want her to power through and ‘read’ the different distances, you can move the MM another 10 feet past that 3rd jump and lead out to it, so she can power down the line and not figure out if you want a turn based on your position, or how to decel to not land on the MM 🙂

Lateral lead outs – tons of distance here and it was easy for her. SUPER!!!! It was easy on the wing after the jump, and also easy for her when you made it a 2 jump setup. Yay! No problem at all so you can now start to turn and execute the FC sooner: when she is a little past halfway, you can start the turn. That will tighten the tun and also allow for better handler position when we eventually put it all on a course. And if that is easier, you can play with starting the FC just before she gets to the halfway point between her release spot and the jump -that will challenge her commitment and also help get a great turn. And be sure to work it on the other side too, so she turns left as well as she turns right.

Great job on these!!!

Tracy

[Tracy Sklenar]

Good morning!

>>! I have to admit I harbor the hope that brain and behavior, as complex as it looks to be, is fundamentally understandable and there are simpler principles we’re getting at.>>

I agree! And I think in dog training we are working against decades (or centuries?) of theories or practices that are not rooted in science at all. And even in the ‘positive’ training circles nowadays, there is a LOT of things going around that are not rooted in the reality of what the neuroscience tells us. So much learning! And I think it is great fun!

And I harbor the hope that the dog training population studies brain development from puppyhood through adolescence and into adulthood, because that will radically change our approach to training.

>> Perhaps it is my initial training as physicists (we love solving problems for spherical cows in vacuum), perhaps it is working with a simpler” model organism in neurosicence, and perhaps it is seeing all the incredible practical successes in dog behavior and training >>

All of the above! And the neuroscientists are the ones who are pushing us dog trainers out of the old models and into an ever-evolving understanding. I think it is the most exciting time in training that I have been involved with in the last 25 years.

>>I’m listening to the BrainCamp lectures by Kathy right now on performance, attention and the emotional state of a dog and I can’t help but see the parallels with our lab’s work, which focuses the neurological basis of zebrafish behavior — zebrafish are neat creatures, they start from a single cell and 7 days later it’s an animal which has 100,000 neurons and can swim, hunt, run from predators and we can study those behaviors in the lab and even look at all the neurons in the brain as it processes information:>>

Thank you for the link!!! I think maybe we should get you to do an interview or something for a webinar with the Brain Camp folks. Kathy has taught us a whole lot that we can apply practically, and in turn our practical applications (particularly in preparing the neurobiology for competition) has gotten her re-thinking her perspectives on the neuroscience, so we have been able to develop some really interesting (and evolving) protocols for dog sports (and pet training).

So let me know if you are interested in hooking up with Brain Camp – you bring a different perspective and I would love love love to hear more.

>>I’m bringing this up, because the lab has been around for just about 20 years and studying the behavior of the animal, but just in the past five years or so we started paying attention to the *internal state* of the animal and find the same things:>>

This is incredibly cool to hear. We’ve been obsessing on internal state for a while now in dog sports, because internal state is what can make or break performance in competition. A large portion of the training world thinks it is all about emotions (I disagree) or that we should be avoiding/supressing arousal (MAJORLY disagree). I am excited to see what else the studies produce about internal states in animals that we humans don’t have emotional attachments too 🙂

>> zebrafish have *attention* which sets their performance and they can switch between attention states depending on their internal state. >>

SO COOL to hear they are seeing this in zebrafish. Shifting attentional states and arousal states is something we do in preparing the neurobiology for the competition ring. We have been sliding it into the MaxPup classes but it is heavily emphasized and better explained in the Brain Camp stuff 🙂

>>what gets recruited depends both on the sensory stimulus *and* the internal state (the soup of neuromodulators such as dopamine, serotonin etc prioritizes what behaviors are being recruited at the moment). >>

Yes! And we see that expressed in performance dogs all the time. Trying to move the training world away from “the dog is naughty” or “the dog made a mistake” or “the dog blew me off” has been a slow shift that is gaining a lot of steam now. Our current obsession is figuring out how we can create a framework based on what we know about dopamine to create ore intrinsic motivation for sports, which will also help get better performance in the ring while making it easier to fade motivators (as required by the rules of many sports :))

>>It’s very cool the very practical approach in dog training mirrored in the basic science of a (at first glance) very boring and “simple” organism like the zebrbafish.>>

I find it very cool too. And I appreciate the zebrafish because we can get information without any of the human skewed point of view like “he is blowing me off” or “he just jumps flat” LOL!! And it takes us outside of operant conditioning – because OC is really a small piece of a huge puzzle.

>>we don’t have language for the pups, but *because* learning happens very quickly when it is in a natural setting for the dog, a short *clear* session with high rate of success substitutes for the langugage we humans have and sets up the clear message.>>

This is true! It is also so hard for us humans to stop when things are going well (or when things are NOT going well LOL!)

>.Also, idk if you know that saying “Love is like a fart, if you have to force it, it’s probably sh*t” and I think it applies to dog training too>>

1000% true! HA!!!

>>But then again, as you say there is also a general difference between the working lines vs the show lines within the same breed, so it is even more refined. I only have to look at my two Berners to be reminded how much genetics can make a difference>>

Thank you for the link! The line alone makes it worthwhile:
“This work presents a scaffold for canine diversification that positions the domestic dog as an unparalleled system for revealing the genetic origins of behavioral diversity.”

And anecdotally, we see environment (except for trauma) being less important in so many ways (but as far as I know, there have not been any studies on this in performance dogs). In the performance world for some of the more common breeds, we can identify lineage simply by observing behavioral expression. That informs training approaches.

>>But all that is to say that your dog maybe learned 100 faster that dropping the ball in front of the jump is an option >>

Yes please to links about the Sawmill papers, even if I only make it through an abstract LOL!!! And yes, the whole rehearsal of dropping the ball at the jump is something that I see a lot in flyball: are we teaching the dogs to drop the ball at the jump? Nope. Are they learning to drop the ball at the jump, because of how we are setting up the session and rehearsal? Yes, they sure are. Dammit! And learning it quickly, and strongly. Sigh. More to obsess on! Video really helps because we can isolate what is happening.

>>scihub (just put it in google search) which is a great website that uses a bank of academics-submitted credenetials that open up the paywalls to the journals.>>

This is great! I will definitely be checking it out!

Onwards to the backside videos!

Looking at the first video: he did GREAT here! It is a pretty complex behavior because he has to process the upper body versus the lower body plus the verbal, plus passing the more visible part of the bar (which he has been paid for going over) versus going to the other side of the wing. And oh yeah, ignore the tunnel too. He had his head turned to you during these reps, probably looking at all of the cues to process them. And you had just the right amount of motion to indicate moving forward, but no so much that the rest of the info got lost in the blur of motion (or too little motion, which would draw him to you). He figured out after the first rep to come back over the bar. And he had the one rep where took the front side of the bar (no reward) and that was actually a big moment for him: very informative LOL! The rate of success was still super high so it was fun to see him motivated to attempt the puzzle again and immediately find the correct answer. Love it!

You can add more motion moving up the line on the backside cue now – faster walk, slow jogging. That way you can ask him to process the info with more motion distraction to see if he can still sort out his mechanics and find the correct side of the bar, with the increased distraction of you moving 🙂

Continuing through the line with the countermotion on the 2nd video was more challenging for him, but he also sorted it out and did really well here. It was harder for him to both go to the backside (with your further away) and to find the bar when you were moving more forward past it, so you can exaggerate looking back (and pointing to) the landing spot instead of being connected to him – that can turn your shoulders to the landing spot as your motion carries forward and can also enhance the landing side of the bar to draw him to it. The exaggerate toy drops also helped!

Great job here! Let me know what you think!

Tracy

[Tracy Sklenar]

Good morning!

>>It is such a mix of connection and blind faith that it is a challenge. Plus while I wanted her speed and enthusiasm that also makes things challenging.>>

These are the truest words!!! We want to train independence and speed and confidence – and also lots of precision. It is a fine balance 🙂

>>I was not sure if I was late. Plus maybe I was sending at jump more than take off???>>

I think she was reading the transition into the send the best after 3 or 4 reps, when you got into position then sent her to the jump. You can probably sent a little more to the takeoff spot but overall I think those reps were good (:30 – :36)

>>Our biggest issue here was reward conflict. Since it required solid stays and I wanted a particular line up I added food and then she spent a few reps trying to explain to me that she would like the treats please and thank you not the toy.>>

Yes, I can see where the food was taking over but also it is possible that it was too many reps of the same thing. The behavior started to deteriorate after 7 reps and I think there were something like 17 reps total on the video. So even with a lot of reinforcement, we do see behavior change when there are too many reps of the same thing in a row. So yes, you might find it easier to use food next time, but change thing after every 2 or 3 reps: switch to the other side of the wing, put the wing on the other side of the jump, change to a different motivator, take breaks and do something else, etc.

And also be sure to count reps – there is no need to get past 10 reps total otherwise you do risk getting into the behavior change when there are too many reps on the same setup. Once you get past the initial reps, she is not ‘learning’ the skill as much as she is practicing/rehearsing it. And while that is fine, the rehearsal can be fatiguing/boring if it is the same thing – and I think that is what you were seeing here. This is especially true when the skill is stationary and there is not a lot of running 🙂

Nice work here!

Tracy

[Tracy Sklenar]

Good morning!
The accordion session went well – the primary goal at this stage is to find the sweet spot: distance between the first 2 jumps, how far apart to move jump 3, how close to set him up to the first jump, and the reward placement. I think the distance between jumps 1 and 2 will be fine (6 feet) as he grows so you can leave it there for now. The set up spot in front of jump 1 looked good (a little too close at :20 but good on the others)!

He was striding between 2 and 3, so we can work this differently because he is so young: move jump 3 out one foot at a time so he extends his bounce. And if he can’t bounce, move jump 3 out 6 inches at a time. No need to go the full 3 feet at this point because of his age.

And as you mentioned, the toy was too close on jump 1 but also, I think it was too close on all of these – it probably needs to be an additional 8 feet away from where it was so he can stride out for a stride or two before trying to slow down for it. And, you can be parallel to the stationary toy (rather than him going past you) so he is not asking any collection questions about if he should go past a stationary handler in extension.

You can also use the moving target on this set up, starting 8 feet past jump 3 and slowly dragging the target forward.

About his actual form? Too soon to tell, he is only 6 months old 🙂 But overall he did fine! He has a lot of mechanics to sort out and I think he did great! He looked good, nothing looked weird 🤣 and we will continue to expose him to striding questions as he grows. And the striding will change because he has more height and length to grow, and also a lot more soft tissue and muscle development coming. And his brain will develop more mechanics skills too – so I think he is off to a great start!

This is the type of thing to re-visit once a week, tops, maybe once every 2 weeks. And sometimes he will have legs going every-which-way and that is normal and fine as he grows. Resist temptation to repeat reps because that will add up to more jumping than we want him doing. If something isn’t perfect, move on to the next rep and fix it there or fix it when you revisit that distance later.

>>He looked good leaping over the increased height, but since it did look like effort, I really won’t repeat that. >>

Yes – at this age, it is a distance reading challenge OR a height challenge, not both at the same time because his brain and body is not mature enough for that yet. And because of his age, distance reading is better and we add the height stuff in when he is older (please ignore all the social media posts of big name people jumping their 7 month old puppies with bars up… that will mess with your head and *you* are the one doing the right thing). The bar height gets introduced in the set point where the distance does not change so he only has to process one different thing.

>>From what I read in your notes he was supposed to bounce the closest spacing and 1 stride all the others (2 FF hits = one stride) and I think he is doing that. >>

For big dogs, they should definitely bounce the set point and should also bounce the 2nd and 4threp distance. And depending on the individual, they will either bounce or 1 stride on rep 3. He is a shade too young to ask for the bouncing at the bigger distances of reps 2, 3, 4 so you can shorten up the changes on jump 3 to help the bouncing. This will all change as he matures.

>>From prior cavaletti work, I am under the impression that the bounces should be in the middle of the jump space, and he is not, but having this spacing, does that cause him to stretch out a little (extension)? >>

Cavalettis generally should be balanced and in the center and in theory so should the grids… but that is not how they work out because we are taking into account structural differences, strength/conditioning in the individual, age, coordination, etc. Cavalettis are a different gait so hard to compare. So I am not terribly concerned about whether he is completely centered on a grid or yet at this point. Trying to get him centered might put him on his front end in a tiny space, or get him to shorten up. Some of the best jumping dogs in agility and flyball are not centered in their grids 🙂

Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy

[Tracy Sklenar]

Have fun trialing this weekend!

Yes, you will use the 9 and 12 foot distances – my guess is she will bounce at 9 feet (maybe not in the first session of seeing it, but she will be able to bounce it soon). And she will probably add 1 stride at 12 feet but when she is adult, she will probably be able to bounce that too 🙂

Have a great weekend!
Tracy

[Tracy Sklenar]

Hi! I am glad you got these posted!

The Lazy game looked good in video 1 – the earlier you could throw with the cookies already in your hand, the better – adding distance was no trouble for her and also you can throw when she looks at the jump (and at the line) rather than wait for her to go over the jump). She also did great playing with the toy in between cookie reps 🙂

Skipping ahead to the part 2 and 3 video: her commitment is looking good! You can break these up for more rewards – reward somewhere on the first loop rather than doing 2 or 3 loops in a row. She might get fatigued or you might make an error, so getting the rewards in before there is any error on either side is helpful.

One step sends – I think having the weaves there compressed everything and made for harder visuals and aded pressure. (More on that below). She seemed unsure if she should look at the weaves or at the wings – even if she doesn’t know what the weaves are, they are still a challenging visual. So she did go to the wings but sometimes was not sure what to do once she was there or looked at the weaves (you can see it at :55 and 1:23) I think if you do the in a more open area with less stuff in the environment, she will be faster and tighter on the wraps 🙂

Plank video: Looking super!! She seems very confident running back and forth (towards you was more comfy than away from you) as well as turning around! If you haven’t done so already, you can raise the plank up with blocks or tables under it, to add more height!

Concept transfer videos:

>>there are some places where Ginger just suddenly stops in front of a jump. Did I decel or give some odd cue??>>

The frozen moments were happening on these 2 videos. I think part of the issue was the pressure of the tunnel under the dog walk – running into that, plus running into the wall. She only froze up when you were facing that way. And also, on the frozen moments, you were fully turned away/disconnected and not moving a lot, so she only saw your back and that might have contributed to the freezing up.

She might have also been worried about something in the environment – you can see a startle response in both videos (like at 1:16 in the 2nd one) although it is possible that both videos had some reps overlapping – she froze, then looked to her right and flinched as if startled. So it is possible that there is a noise or something weird happening that was
causing it.

Adding more speed and connection can help, as well as dialing back the pressure by not having the DW in the picture. I would also check to see if she is having any pain issues because it is possible something hurts, which would make her more sensitive for sure and more likely to freeze up.

When she was moving, she did great! You can show more accelerating into the wrap so you then can decelerate more which will give the cues sooner. So the main thing is to figure out why she was freezing up. For the next session, try having the tunnel in the center of the room with nothing else around besides the jumps you will be using, and add a ton of connection to see if that helps.

Nice work here! Keep me posted!

Tracy

[Tracy Sklenar]

Hi! Lots of good info here!!

One thing to consider in this session which likely contributed to the errors or questions was the giant visual of the a-frame. Having the a-frame in the picture adds a hugely different visual and makes it a much harder discrimination (with a skill that is still relatively new without the frame in the picture too). That wasn’t stressful for him, necessarily, but it takes up bandwidth that is otherwise needed to process the cues (and can become stressful if there are too many errors).

So on the simpler things that are easier to process and he has more experience with in terms of learning history: much easier! Those include the wraps to the tunnel right in front of him, with motion support from you.

The threadle stuff was much harder, especially when you added lateral position, like at :27 when you were in a lateral position but cuing a ‘go straight’ (getting closer at :30 helped a lot!) and also at :40 on the other side, when everything is visible (and therefore needing processing) except the other side of the tunnel which is the one you wanted LOL!

You can also see the processing (tipping over into stress maybe?) at 1:08 with the delayed response to the touch cue followed by the pow cue, then at 1:35 where he actually turned his head away when you cued the touch before slowly moving into it.

That is all really good info about how hard the processing is. So if there is something big in the environment, keep the skills simple. And save the harder/newer skills for when there are fewer things in the environment, so his puppy brain can devote more bandwidth to processing the cues and mechanics. You’ll find that when you add the other things back into the environment, he will be more successful if he has had more extensive previous learning history without them there.

>>He did really well at the club field, but no video. But I put him around the wing wrap the other way, so he wasn’t looking at the tunnel coming out, but he did really nicely going into the tunnel without the extra looking around.>>

Yay! Out of curiosity, was the tunnel standalone there, or under the frame? Were you using a toy or food? That can help us plan for future sessions.

Nice work!

Tracy

[Tracy Sklenar]

Good morning!

>>I’ll keep working on the rear crosses!! I’ll figure it out one day, haha.>>

It will also get much easier when she is more experienced 🙂

Looking at the video:

>>I felt like the “tight” blinds in the beginning were not as tight as they could have been, but I think I was late in showing the cross since I wasn’t trusting her to commit to the wing before I left.>>

I agree, they were a little late. You can use more motion up the line from the tunnel to the wing (get a little closer to the tunnel so you can be moving up the line to the wing when she exits). What was happening was you were ahead and lateral, showing decel (very small steps at :14, :22, :30, :41) so she was coming into you then you had to send her back out, which made the timing late. More motion will commit her sooner which make help make the timing earlier too 🙂

As you exit the blinds: you were reaching back with your connection and that was getting the side change nicely when you were on one or two wings. When your hand was in the way, though, as things got faster like on the 2 sequences at the end, she didn’t see the new connection as clearly so took longer to find the new side. Using the arm across the body to reward will help make the connection a lot more visible by pushing the dog-side arm out of the way to make the connection more visible.

>>In the moment, I really thought she was getting distracted by the toy in the race track reps, but after watching the video, I think it was a connection issue (surprise!).>>

She did well ignoring the toy, and was even running right past it when doing the wing wraps in the beginning (it was right in front of her nose!)

I think it was more of a motion question on the race track for most of it, like at :43 – you turned away from the middle wing so she followed your motion. Good girl! Think of the race tracks as running lines where you are connected and moving near each wing but not sending. It is a speed circle 🙂
You got a good running rep and she did well, but then disconnected at 1:06 on the send forward so she changed sides.

>> I KNOW I should have given her the toy or a reset cookie at least and then either stopped or made it easier.>>

Yes – don’t stop or mark it as an error. Take it as info and keep going in the moment, then reward. And if you know what went wrong, fix it on the next rep. If you aren’t sure, stop the session and look at the video (video always tells us LOL!)

The sequences at the end went GREAT, especially 1:20-1:32, that was smooth and connected and gorgeous!

I am so sorry to hear about the injury!!! Ugh!! Fingers crossed you are feeling better ASAP.

>>I’m hoping I can play some of the remaining games before the end of the class. I know some of them would work, like the layering game, for example. >>

You can do all of it at a walk, if walking is comfy! And you an move the wings in closer to be able to work the walking skills 🙂

>>I think the universe just doesn’t want me to train this pup, lol!>>

Or, the universe is making sure you take your time, no rush 🙂 She is doing great!

Nice work here!!

Tracy

[Tracy Sklenar]

Hi!
The backside slice session here looked really strong!
When working on the backside at the beginning, on the reps at :02, :11, :17, :21, :26, :28, you were looking towards her with good connection and she nailed it. Yay! At :05 you had a little blooper of looking at the jump ahead (instead of at her) which turns your chest/shoulders to point to the front side, which is where she went.

When you revisited the backsides later in the video at 1:05 by being further across the bar with a little low outside arm to support the connection and shoulder support to the backside – nice! Look at the independence developing! And she came in and took the bar even before the toy drop – happy dance!

The countermotion elements looked really good too – great job breaking it down t get started and gradually getting further and further around the wing, while dropping the reward behind you. Super nice!

The crosses on the landing side of the backside jump looked good too – you got earlier and earlier with your timing and the reps at 1:24 and especially 1:30 were really strong. The goal is that the cross is starting just before she arrives at the entry wing, and that is what you were doing there.

When you did the spin on the landing side so she ended up on your right, it set up a RC to the tunnel and she didn’t quite process it. The FC you did on the last rep worked perfectly!!!

>>I did not submit but she did take off and grab all obstacles! >>

What do you mean It is hard to tell if this was a good thing or bad thing LOL!!!

Great job 🙂

Tracy

[Tracy Sklenar]

Good morning!

>>Started out with the toy but then ended up switching to food, but she did play again with the toy after. The tandem turns reqiure a lot of thought.>>

Yes – the tandem especially in this new context was mentally hard, and she always does better in this type of session (first time with hard newer stuff) when you are using food rewards. Switching was totally the right thing, and you can switch before you even start net time.

The other thing that might have been happening is that you are using your praise markers (like yes or yay or good girl) for moments when you stop and reward… but also for moments when you want her to keep going. That happened on the first leapy moment at 1:06 ish (with the toy) and then she also looked at you on those praise moments when the toy was involved (and missed the wing behind the tunnel on one of them).

So if you are going to keep going, just keep delivering info about what is next. That is where she was fast and accurate. And if you are going to reward, you can praise and use markers. I think that will keep things clearer for her too. It probably doesn’t matter as much in more familiar games, but this setup is new and weird 🙂 so she needed all of her processing bandwidth devoted to info.

Looking at the tandems: I think on the first couple like at :29 and :47 you were a shade too far ahead, so the decel was a bit earlier than she needed and she didn’t really drive into them.

Your adjustments ar 1:45 and 2:16 were fabulous though, that was the sweet spot of accelerating then decel and turn her – fantastic! And the turn at 2:16 set her up to power to the next wing and the tunnel threadle. That is HARD and she did really well! Super!!

>>when she was younger and then hit adolescence and decided it was evil. She’s gotten pretty good about pushing her collar into my hand again but I decided it was time to start working more on the harness again. She can push her head through it at meal times but has to think about it before her morning walk. I decided to try having it be a condition to go out to the backyard to play or train and see if that helps. >>

Ah, teenagers LOL!!! I think that is a good idea – and she will give you feedback on it. If she avoids it and doesn’t want to go outside then maybe it is too much pressure. But she seemed very happy here!!!!

>>I am deliberately not putting it on her at the end of a session.>>

Smart! And when she is happier with it overall, you can put it on then take it off and let her rip through a tunnel a few more times so getting the harness on is not associated with the sadness of the session being over 😁

Great job here!
Tracy

[Tracy Sklenar]

Hi!
A lot of good stuff here but also some errors that I think were about trying to figure out the line to the toy. I think having the toy out on the ground is making the session more about her figuring out how to get to the toy (which line leads to the toy) and not as much about reading the handling cues. The toy is randomly placed, which I think is confusing her more than helping her because it is dividing her processing bandwidth: part of the brain is trying to follow the handling, part of the brain is trying to look for the line to the toy – and that makes sense because she often does a line and is sent to the toy far away.

So on one jump, when there toy is in a nearby location, like the forced fronts, she did really well! On the threadles, when you are fully outside the wing, it sets the line past the wing… to the toy. The forced threadle position is basically the same as the forced front position, with the main difference being that you are rotated to face her on the threadle. That position will also indicate the bar, which will allow you to move sooner too!

Some of the errors that I think were created by the toy being in the picture but not placed to help were after the threadles like at 1:15 and 1:39, and then on some more random lines like at 1:06 and a couple around 2:00. She was trying to solve the puzzle of getting to the toy on those and not processing the handling as well. So to help her out, have the toy in a hand or pocket and not on the ground, as that is giving her conflicting cues on the sequences. It I just a little too hard to have new handling and the toy on the ground at this point.

When she is focused on the handling and not trying to figure out the toy, she is doing really well!

Small details to add:
For the forced front sequence, stand perfectly still so you don’t move away from the jump then push back to it, because that will change the line and delay your exit to the next line.

On the lead out push, you can be closer to the exit wing as long as you keep your shoulders open – that will get an even tighter turn there!

And nice job adding connection on the exit of the threadle at the end – the first rep was a little disconnected (then she froze, looking for the toy). The 2nd rep had great connection!

Great job on these!

Tracy

[Tracy Sklenar]

Hi!
The forced fronts looked good in both directions at the beginning and the end – nice!!!

For the threadles, she read them best when you were in the same spot as the Forced Fronts and not that far outside the wing (that put you too far from the bar). It looks like on a couple you might have been a little too close to the jump at :25? But the reps after that looked really good and she figured it out nicely. It was hard to hear your release, so you can totally use you threadle slice verbal as the release cue here (and for the forced fronts too).

Nice work!

Tracy

[Tracy Sklenar]

Good morning!

>>Yes, your description is a very familiar way of thinking about learning and motivation. We’re playing with a different point of view, where RPE plays the role we know it to have but it isn’t the primary driver of learning, rather it is fine tuning.>>

Learning and behavior (and the brain) is so very complex that yes, RPE is not a primary driver – tooooo many different types of learning. I think of it as a primary driver of the early stages of transactional learning like operant conditioning (and OC is not necessarily the strongest form of learning but it is the one we dog trainer types can see easily and use a lot in dog training).

>>This all started with an experiment where a graduate student raised zebrafish and blocked all brain activity for the first 6 days of the animal’s life, then removed the chemical blocker and 1. the animal performed all the behaviors a normal zebrafish does, and 2. you could actually see the brain come online when the blocker goes away (one of the supplementary movies in the paper: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10774424/). So what this tells us is that the animal behavior is very much genetically built in already and there is very little neural rearrangement going on,>>

Yes! Cool stuff! And genetically wired behavior is a different thing entirely, imo. My herding dogs from working lines (not from conformation lines) are likely to start showing herding behavior as soon as they can process visual stimuli. And my Papillons have never shown that. And a cat won’t show it either LOL!!! But genetically wired behavior is not transactional. So while we do exploit some of it in our OC work because it can inform how we set up sessions and our choices for reinforcement, we know we are doing it because some of the genetic wiring can be tied into what the dog finds reinforcing or motivating.

>> this did cause some stir in the community of course because we have been attributing a lot of neural rearrangement to environmental factors.>>

Yes and there was a recent twin study in humans (from China, I think) that attributed a lot of things to environment. I do think that genetic wiring is a HUGE factor, but also canine and human brains are genetically wired for social cues and environmental cues differently than fish & rats & mice (also wired for social cues but in a different way), which is part of what makes it so insanely complex. But fascinating!

>>What this then boils down to is the idea that animals learn very quickly behaviors that they are wired to do genetically, basically it’s effectively one-shot learning.>>

Yes – going back to Border Collies, for example – that is why a BC can be a great herding dog regardless of the quality of the OC or reinforcement factors or anything the same dog would need to learn, say, weave poles.

And the genetic differences between breeds are fascinating. My whippet is bred from lines that are bred to race. He is a wildly different creature than whippets bred for conformation.

>>Executing the behavior correctly is a matter of fune tuning the system. For example we quickly get the idea of “use the racket to hit the ball over the net” in tennis, but it’s many repetitions necessary to build the muscle memory and coordination (fine tuning). >>

The neuronal memory needed for the mechanics is definitely rehearsal. We separate the progression into 3 things when we are training the dogs:

‘learning’ which is getting the behavior, practice/rehearsal which is the neuronal memory needed to be able to do things quickly without needing to devote a lot of mental bandwidth to it and avoiding depletion, and preparation which is different from the other two. Preparation is working the dog in the same neurobiological state that they will be in when asked to recall the behavior (like in the competition ring, for example). This definitely takes us out of the laboratory work because in the lab, the animals are not asked to ‘compete’ in an entirely different state (but the state dependent memory studies are fascinating too) So approaching training as also preparing the neurobiology is something the animal behavior scientists are taking notice of!

3 entirely different things that work in 3 entirely different ways (RPE, multi-sensory integration, neurobiology/HPA Axis/etc, and with an eye on both the genetically wired behavior AND the individual animal). Complex but fascinating 🙂

>On the other hand a lot of the research on learning is done in mice and yet, a mouse learns a maze ridiculously quickly, or food avoidance when it’s toxic — to the point that these are so quick that no one in a lab studies them because they are “too good at the task already” and instead focuses on lever pressing which is such an unnatural thing to ask of a mouse that it requires thousands of repetitions (taking fine tuning to an extreme and calling it learning).>>

Funny, we geek out over the maze studies and avoidance studies because we want the quickness and the strength of behavior those produce. I personally don’t want to use toxic food or shock, but the most powerful learning comes when we use what is most natural to the animal especially when training what is less natural. I also read a lot of the errorless learning studies (the dog training world has completely mis-interpreted errorless learning and has accidentally reproduced some of the issues that the first studies had) and am a little obsessed with the Hebbian learning stuff too – that is actually a HUGE element that we all need to pay more attention to in dog sports (don’t ask me about my young dog dropping the ball at the jump in his flyball session yesterday, EEK hahahaha)

>>To bring this to Obi and the training sessions, interacting with me in the context of trainig is like being in a game of tennins and knowing that the ball should be hit with a racket, then doing all the agility sequences is all about fine tuning the movements and context. >>

Yes – there is a big element of rehearsal/practice and not necessarily learning or dopamine release in the RPE context. And the reinforcement and session structure go a long way to that.

>>There really isn’t *that much* of a surprise for him.>>

Yes, there is no that much of a surprise (nor is there intended to be, it is juts practice) and no – the adolescent brain does weird things in mammals and he might be ‘surprised’ when he does get rewarded because his brain was telling him something else happened. And also *not* getting rewarded can be just as surprising as getting rewarded particularly if the brain says “I nailed it, here comes the reward” – it is about the prediction, not really about the reward. And the dopamine is released on the prediction more than on the reward.

>>> The short sessions make sense in this context because 1. learning actually happens very quickly, 2. animals switch between exploring and exploiting states all the time, e.g. a behavior can be very successful on many repetitions (exploitation state, looks like “paying attention”) but after a few they will switch to exploration state (try other things) which looks like distraction, or fatigue, etc. >>

Absolutely! And it might be legit muscle fatigue as well, not just a change in mental state, and their form changes.

>>I’ve come to appreciate the MaxPup setup precisely because it seems to set us up for clear quick learning followed by an exploitation state to reinforce the sequence >>

Yay! That is the goal! And we can also see pretty early on if the ‘learning’ we want is actually happening.

>>if the human doesn’t get greedy with it we can walk away early before we switch to a new exploration state (and the clarity of what we’ve just done gets muddled).>>

That is the hardest part LOL!!!!

>>Anyhow, everything following the actual experiments with the fish is mostly active brainstorming for rethinking learning and animal behavior in light of evolution and systems neuroscience >>

This is SO COOL and I ma excited for the future of it! And the behavior people are splitting into 2 schools: one of which is just going more hardcore into “everything is operant” versus “OC is a tiny piece of the much bigger puzzle”.

>> thanks for letting me thought vomit, hope it’s not entirely un-parseable.>>

I freaking love it! And Thank you for the link to the study 🙂 I will be reading it asap!!

>>BTW today I learned that Karen Pryor was helping one of the faculty here to design training assays for his rat experiments!!! >>

That is so cool!!! The rat experiments have been awesome. And the fMRI work with dogs have been pretty amazing too.

Onwards to videos!

The 2 jumping videos were great!
On the first one (ladder video) he was having a little trouble setting his hind end for jump 2. You can see him changing what he is doing on each re- – shortening up, carrying his back legs a bit for he 1st three reps at :11, :40, :51. Then he uses them better (more push, less carry) at 1:43 (bar down). Then he nailed it at 1:56 – excellent!!!

This session right here is why I don’t punish bars. One of the best efforts here was where the bar came down, and what also made it great was he was trying to sort out how to improve his mechanics. If we had told him he was wrong because the bar happened to come down? Well, that would be counterproductive to say the least!

On the 2nd video, he maintained the mechanics he figured out in the first session on all the reps. Good boy!!!! And he read the distances really well. Not surprisingly, the bigger distances been 2 and 3 were easier but also he gets a gold start for rep 5 where he went back to the more compressed bounce without any trouble. Super!!

>>He just keeps bouncing!? Should we modify the distances or do we leave him bouncing?>>

He was bouncing appropriately here, so leave the bounces at this distance but you can move jump 3 out 6 feet for each rep rather than 3 feet. That way at some point in rep 3 you will end up at a one-stride distance (which might mean rep 4 becomes a 1-stride as well for now, which is fine).

Great job here!

Tracy

[Tracy Sklenar]

Hi!

>>I’m not quite sure what you are looking for, but I’m sure you will explain it.>>

We are looking for 2 things here:

From the trainer perspective, we are looking for the sweet spot of the setup: how far apart should the set point (jumps 1 and 2) be, how far away from the jump should she start, how far away should the reward target be.
Looking at the videos and bearing in mind that whippets move differently than a lot of other dogs in agility – I think her set point distance might need to be 7 feet. She is not a big dog but she has a giant whippety stride, so she needs more room in the set point to get her rear under her with more power. So on the next session, try 7 feet between 1 and 2 and see how she does.

For the set up in front of 1 – she was at her best when she was close to jump 1, less a foot away from it. That way she can push off from the sit and have a balanced, powerful jumping effort. If she is too far away, she taps her feet with a tiny stride before 1 and that throws off the balance.

For the reward – The MM should be another 10 feet further away from jump 3 so she can land from 3 with power take another powerful stride, then slow down to get the cookies (the MM moves out with the jump). If the MM is too close, she will spend her time trying to slow down so she doesn’t land on it 🙂

From the dog jumping perspective, for the target dogs we are looking for a consistent bounce between 1 and 2 on every rep, then for her to ‘read’ the distances and adjust her stride for each rep. So between jumps 2 and 3, ideally that would be a bounce on rep 1, probably a boy nice on rep 2, a one stride for now (maybe a bounce eventually) on rep 3, replicating what she did on rep 2 during rep 4, then bounces on rep 5.

Looking at her videos:

Rep 1 – she did bounce on this but it was hard for her – her start position was a bit too far back so she was a little off balance coming into it, and the MM was a little too close so she was working on slowing down and yo can see her head coming up as she is jumping.

Rep 2 – I liked her position on 1 a lot better because she could liftoff immediately and with power. She started to move into a down before the release so that made it harder but she was nice and close so she could take off without extra steps. She got bounces between here too and they were more comfortable looking, because of the better start position. The MM can be further away to let her power out.

Rep 3 – on this rep, her start position was further from 1 so she tapped her feet before 1, which put her off balance and you can see she is jumping more upwards than forward. She did do a one stride in that 12 foot distance (she will probably bounce that as an adult dog) but she had a little trouble because she was off balance jumping into 1 and 2. Starting closer will smooth that out.

Rep 4 – This rep had the better (closer) start position, which helped produce better jumping mechanics – she read it well!

Rep 5 – she stepped in nicely here and had a bounce bounce! Yay! You can see with the MM being close, she was slowing down, so changing the MM position will help get even more balance and power.

Great job here!!
Tracy

[Tracy Sklenar]

Hi!
This video had the wraps on jump 2. The main thing here is to use a distinct transition of decelerating *then* rotating. That will help smooth out the turns.

The right turns on jump 2 require a lot of rotation, so you will want to be almost facing her as she is approaching the jump. At :06 leaning forward to the jump, which produced a wide turn because it looked more like a slice cue.The re-send at :14 was a lot more rotated and went much better! :19 was also more rotated – no need to do the rotation fast, though, as that acceleration can send her wide. The rep at :25 had the clearest decel and rotation, and also the best turn. Yay!

On the other side, the rep at :35 had decel simultaneously happening with a push-down rotation towards her and it looked like a backside cue. When that happens, just keep going as if it was correct (because she did read the cues correctly). She did get the tug as you got back to jump 1 but there was still the moment of stopping which indicates she was wrong.

:55 had similar cues maybe a step further over but you don’t need to do it all that fast – she is a little wide on the wrap because of all the motion. Think of it as decel then rotate, and because she is a good turning dog, I don’t think you need as much pressure towards her on the takeoff spot. That added pressure pushes her off the line a bit and also can delay the info of the full rotation or you exiting for the next line.

Nice work!
Tracy

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