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Hello and welcome back!
Let me just say that it is GREAT that you post the places where things are harder – that way we can sort that out and everything gets easier.
I see what you mean about the food being NOT motivating in this game. It is not unusual for a Border Collie to think food is not a motivator or reward during work.
He was finding the jumps, and he did see you throw the food (but it was not worth the effort to find it when jumps, your motion, and a toy were in play). It seemed like he was able to think about what he needed to do… but the food was not a motivator or reward at all. This is pretty normal LOL
Two ideas for you:
We can use this framework to be able to get more food value going: throw a BIG GIANT VISIBLE chunk of something, like a piece of string cheese. Then when he gets it and eats it (stop the game til he does) – you can have a ginormous party with the toy then back into the work on the jumps.
So mainly eating food becomes part of the ‘work’, as we build it up into a motivator.
Separately from using food, when we are working on getting bigger commitment from him: use the toy 🙂 He definitely finds it motivating and rewarding, so for now you can throw the toy out on the line. For efficiency, you can have a 2nd toy with you to help convince hm to come right back with the first toy, for the next rep 🙂
One other thing to consider – at the end you did a nose touch hold then the toy. I’ve talked to a bunch of behavior vets about the sustained nose touches and chin rests, and what we are all seeing is that while the intention is to calm the dog, it has the opposite effect: there is muscle tension when they do this and they either are not breathing or they are breathing fast through their noses… all of which can increase the heart rate which increases arousal 🙂 So a quick hand touch is great so he can open his mouth, move, and breath more will be better for a quick behavior to get him the toy.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Good morning!
She brings a lot of joy to the lazy game! She is DEFINITELY not lazy in her approach to this LOL and was very happy to go over the jumps to eat the treat. Best game ever according to Millie!! Super fun to watch her.
And when you asked for more than one jump? No problem, she said. She ended up driving to all 3 jumps with speed and independence, not needing much help from you. SUPER!
Since this went perfectly, you can spread the distances out, and you can also proceed to games 2 and 3!
Great job here!
Tracy
Hi!
>I did notice her zig zag on that tunnel approach and she did it more than once. I’m a little concerned we are also developing some weakness with “dog on right.” >
It might be that you are a little more naturally connected with her on your left, thanks to the value of the obedience work. So when she is on your right, you can really emphasize the connection to her eyes (and tell your arms to stay out of the picture :)) and I bet the connection on your right clicks into place there too.
>What do you suggest if we don’t have a way to start with one end on the ground and one in the air? I know this would be the ideal way to get a fast, confident teeter. So maybe I need to invest in the teeter trainer? I don’t own a teeter but have access to one.>
If you have access to one, you can play this game when you are able to go train on the one you have access to. You can of course invest in a teeter trainer, but it seems like it would cost too much for the amount of time you would need it (not a lot of time). You could invest in a teeter, which would make more sense because it gets used a lot, but you can also train a fantastic teeter without owning one.
Another way to begin the mountain climber game is to use a normal plank so she can run up it and get rewarded at the top – it doesn’t need to move at the early stages, so a regular plank would be fine for now.
>On the plank exercise, what if we have already introduced the 2o2o end behavior?>
For the angled entries, you can have her start on the angled entry and end in the 2o2o on the other side of the plank. She would be getting on in one direction only (no back and forth) but that will still help her find the angles of entry. And for the turning around in the middle, you can have her hop on in the middle, turn around, hop off – this is all to prepare her for if she ever loses her balance and needs to jump off rather than fall off.
Keep me posted!
Tracy
Good morning!
She did well here! The cot stationing might have helped, hard to know, but she did seem less bouncy/barky on t he way to the first jump at the beginning.
Run 1 – this went well! One thing to try is a spin on 4 after the blind, instead of a post turn. The spin turns your feet the new direction sooner (she had a nice turn but you can get more speed out of it if she chases you rather than follows a post turn. That can also get you a few steps further ahead so you can then send to 5 and get to the blind on the tunnel exit sooner. The blind was a little late so she had a question there (but didn’t get mad! Yay!)
Run 2 – this also went well! I don’t think she needs an arm send or step to the backside on 3 – I believe she will get it with parallel path motion and verbals. Sending (and toy hand switching) made the FC a little late at 1:07. Or you can do a blind because that will get you up the line even better and then she won’t have a question on the tunnel exit.
Run 3 –
Great focus forward to 1 at 1:40! Her line up and the step out of it read RC to her, so more of an angle on her start position will help so she is facing the left turn.
Great job on the last line and layering the tree AND driving ahead! She is getting really good at the distance lines!!!
>I can try to rotate treats more but she’s still not into non food-stuffed toys for agility so kinda hard to mix up toys very much. >
Keep rotating treats, and you can also rotate the food toys – food stuffed frizz, lotus ball, treat hugger, etc.
>Lately I’ve felt like the agility training has been going well, but her general house manners have regressed.>
Could be a burst of adolescence brain development happening, could be less activity due to heat, or anything. You can give her indoor puzzles to solve, like indoor scent work in the form of hiding food or hiding a kong toy or something to give her a brain workout 🙂
Sounds like a great weekend ahead! Have fun hiking and at the trial, fingers crossed for great weather!
Tracy
Hi!
> I never REALLY know where he’s going and handling becomes reactive instead of proactive. >
This is a HUGE point! On the runs you posted, the handling was 95% proactive and looked fabulous! It was the 5% where it was a little reactive where you had the one darned error. (That is probably frustrating – I would be frustrated! Argh!)
>So in addition to tunnel exit challenges, will need teeter exit challenges (and even start line scenarios, since similar things happen off of start lines, like that opening from that first class course I posted of Roots).>
That is a great plan – and the plan only focuses on 2 things, making it much easier to execute and complete! I am not as concerned about the start line openings, because those are already in progress plus you are slapping on the verbals which will help enormously.
So for the tunnel exits and teeter exits: When you are training, grab the handling skills sequences or pop outs or parts of the big courses that have those 2 exits, and work them as written and also with an ‘either – or’ approach, showing him a variety of different exits. if you only show one exit, he will learn the sequence and then it won’t matter what the handling is after the second rep LOL!
Then for the ISC trial, maybe look at the courses from the perspective of working on those 3 things (start line exits, tunnel exits, teeter exits). It will mainly be tunnel exits because there will be several of those in each course, and tell him what the exit is (before he enters) on every tunnel whether you think he needs it or not :). Thankfully there is only one start line on each course, and only one teeter exit on each standard course, so that requires less focus at a trial.
Have a great weekend!!
Tracy
Good morning!
I love games where we can sit! Cricket added nice musical accompaniment too!
She did really well here – I think her success was a combination of processing the cues before she moved, and latent learning from the previous session. Super! It is still a hard processing game so she sometimes came directly to the toy (there is a self-control element in play here too). She had a stretch in the middle where she got several wrong – my guess is arousal came up more which made the processing harder. But you kept things in a very centered state and she worked through the puzzle, finishing super strong!
For the next session (in a couple of days, so latent learning has time to work its magic :)), try it standing then try it with adding that ‘neutral motion’ from coming around a wing. It is fun to sort see her sort it out.
Nice work!
TracyHi! It sounds like both boys are doing great, thanks for the update!! I bet you don’t have to support the 5-6 jumps for the blind cross that much – just keep moving and using verbals, and they will get it 🙂
Have fun and keep me updated on how they do with the rest of the sequences!
Tracy
Hi! I am glad Katniss did well on the course! The weave entry is really hard, so I am not surprised she had a BIG MAD there LOL
Looking at the opening with Nox: the layering is HARD, good job working through it!
When she came off the line in the layering on the first rep, she saw you pulling away as she was heading to 2 at :29 which set the line to the tunnel and not 3
By sending her from further away at :50 you were able to set a much better parallel line 2-3. She turned a little wide on 1 there which took her off the line to 3, so a wrap verbal would be better than a go jump verbal, perhaps?
She went back out and found 3 at 1:06 though! Yay! The parallel path of your motion really helped there! Good reward!
Starting at 3 worked well and you easily got the 6 backside.
On. the 6-7-8 line: I think you wanted a right turn away from you on 7 at 1:28 (based on your reaction) but Nox and I agree that the cues looked more like a left turn.
You can use your arms and shoulder turning to set the line for that – you did it with 2 hands and a bit of a shoulder pull later in the video and it worked really well 🙂Did she get the weave entry then go chase sheep? LOL She came back relatively fast LOL!!
For the backside at 2:05 on 13, drive towards it more (towards the center of the bar) to give her earlier info)
Looking at the tunnel exit to jump 15: At 2:12 on 15 she was not sure if it was a wrap or RC, so she abstained and took neither LOL More on this line below!
Driving more to the parallel line to the 16 backside (2:23), and also to 19 a 2:29 will smooth out both of those lines there.
On the very last jump, she had a big mad at 2:34, she just did not see the line to the last jump – looks like you were a bit lateral and your arm was parallel to your body – which blocks connection.
Evening run:
These runs went great! She was much smoother in the opening, she is figuring it out! Yay! And she nailed it on the last run!
And much better tandem turn cues 6-7-8: you had both arms involved and a clearer change of line with your motion.
Nice line 9-10-11-12 both times!
On the first run, I thought you were better about driving her to the 13 backside, but she disagreed. So push on that line even harder so she doesn’t consider the front at all. You handled it basically the same way on the last run and she went directly to it, so hopefully she is getting more comfortable with these parallel path backside sends.
To possibly get the BC after the tunnel, you can handle the exit of 13 as a German turn: pushing forward with countermotion after the backside and picking her up on your right side (rather than doing a FC on the landing side) – that can put you several steps further ahead on the net line. You were VERY close to getting the BC at 4:32 with the FC 13-14, s I bet you can get it using the German turn.
You had better connection on the exit of the 14 tunnel to the 15 jump at 3:21, so she took the jump! Yay! Nice rear cross on 15 at 4:33!
I thought you had a better line of motion to the backside of 16 at 3:35 (and to 19 at 3:41) but she also disagreed and barked at you. She definitely needs a lot of support to the backside, good job giving it to her here! She got mad when you said “yay” at 4:35 and didn’t reward her LOL
And your connection was SO much clearer cueing the last jump: eye contact, arm back, motion to the jump. Super!
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Hi!
>Yes, I get the same behaviors at home as in a trial. So I can’t just blame the trial environment, >
That is great! Makes it easier to train!
> I actually think that might be a good thing because it’s so hard to work on a problem that only shows up in a trial!>
Exactly!
<<Something to try is to dismount, step to the side a little and pause, allowing her to settle into her position. Then remind her to stay and move to your lead out position.>>
This was my strategy for a little while, but it didn’t seem to help. She seemed confused and would think I wanted her to follow me when I started moving again. >Maybe use the line up to get her where you want her relative to the jump… but cue the position to stay in after the dismount. That way the lineup is more to get the exact spot and not the start of the stay.
>I got a suggestion to use a PVC “box” that is just 3 small pieces of pipe with elbow connectors so it forms 3 sides of a rectangle and to have her sit in it at the startline. The idea is that it’s a visual with clear boundries for her,>
From the human perspective, sure, clear boundaries! From the dog perspective? Not so clear and she has spent a LOT of time in her short life stepping over or moving through PVC. So you are going to have to teach her that *this* specific PVC thing means don’t move, when all other PVC things have involved movement.
> and it’s easy to fade because you take off the side pieces and just have the front piece in front of her. I suspect you could even graduate to something completely flat like a thin leash and eventually a string if you couldn’t fade it easily. Do you have any thoughts on this strategy?>
I have thoughts LOL!! It can be done, and it is not as easy to fade as people think because it becomes a context cue pretty quickly.
So you will have to spend a big chunk of timing training it (there is nothing intuitive about it and she might think it is weird) so she understands it and get it happening in front of a jump, at trials, etc… then have to fade it. It is a significant time investment in a training aid that may or may not work 🙂 And training aids for visual cues need to be faded ASAP or they become the cues of the behavior… and without them? We don’t have the behavior.
And in an environment with sooooo much visual stimulation and she will be watching you lead out… I don’t think adding another visual thing will help (depletes too much bandwidth) and could potentially add stress or pressure to the start area.
So if you want an aid, choose something that doesn’t need to be faded – like her leash. Have her sit on her leash for now, as an anchor point. Not visual so it doesn’t split that bandwidth. She can feel it, and you don’t need to fade it (you can make it less obvious of course but the leash can always be there).
I prefer NOT to add aids that need to be trained a lot then faded, and run the risk of being context cues. So I think it is better to work on what will work for both of you in terms of staying in position, and clarity of release, and try not to add aids.
Let me know what you think!
TracyHi! I think it went really well – it is a big course for a young dog and she showed lots of great skills and speed here!
Looking at the opening where you sent her to 1 –
On the first rep: She found the first jump really well and didn’t move on the stay! Before the release, try to be stationary in position, praise, and see if she will look at the jump. She might have moved just before you released her – she definitely knew where the jump was and might have been anticipating the release.On the 2nd rep, she turned to face you and was not facing the jump LOL She still got it, but you can work the skill more gradually (adding distance more slowly) so that she doesn’t move her feets AND so she looks at the jump. I know, we want it ALL! LOL!
>I had to push on her line out of the tunnel and Indy let me know it by yelling at me.>
She did get BIG MAD (bark) at :16 and a small mad (grunt) at :39 on the way to the 6 backside. There are a couple of reasons why she gave you ‘feedback’ there 🤣😂
– you said ‘tunnel’ but didn’t give her a cue to stay in extension on the exit, so she was coming in towards you. A “GO” before she enters the tunnel will get her running straight on the exit
– your arm was up high and blocking connection at :16 so the cue looked like the front side of the jump for a moment. The arm was not quite as high at :40 but still not enough connection. So be sure you are looking directly at her (which points your shoulders to the backside) with your dogs-ide arm out of the way.– to get you further ahead to make that connection and because she read the 2-3-4-5 line so well: you can lead out less and layer your blue tunnel by sending her to 3-4-5 to be ahead and closer to 6 when she exits the 5 tunnel. The opening is perfect for a big layer!
She had one question about 9, when she went past it at :44. It was because you accelerated straight to get past the tunnel, which set the line past 9. She reads everything!
You can either send over 8 to 9 and layer the yellow tunnel, or you can use brakes arms there as you override your motion. You did a small brake arm at :49 – you can do it bigger and sooner, so you can accelerate more up the line.
>d she did a super nice weave entry, nice to see since she has been struggling with speed and she nailed them.>
Yes! SUPER nice weave entry! And that is a hard entry – she was great!
>I tried a wrap,,, but I lost her to the tunnel. I did my verbal, decel, brake,,, maybe I did it too late or the tunnel was just too inviting.>
The timing of starting the cues was good and she did collect, so I don’t think it was because you were late! I think she didn’t quite see the rotation fully and might have been thinking it was a spin to cue the line to the tunnel. That’s valid, because it is something she has probably seen before and you were far enough behind that I don’t think she could see it was a FC. So it is probably a lack of experience thing and you can show it to her by getting closer to the wrap wing at first. That way your rotation and connection is VERY visible, so it is easier to do the FC. Then you can show her what the cues to the tunnel would look like, and see if she can read the difference when you alternate them. Then we start to have you do it further and further away.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Hi!
>I am not the best with filming or editing so I started small.>
The video looks great!! And she did really well with this game – she is super fun 🙂
She has lovely commitment to the jumps here! You can use your arm to send her to that middle jump, then you don’t need to point your arm at the line much at all – you can just look at her and run 🙂
Pointing too much can slow you down (and she is already fast, so we don’t want to slow you down) and pointing forward can also block connection, She had 2 questions about that here:
You can see one question at :49 when you were cueing the tunnel but your arm was pointing forward and she could not see your eyes – she zigged in towards you (almost locking on to the wrong end of the tunnel) then zagged back out the side of the tunnel you wanted. Pointing ahead there actually turned your shoulders to the other end of the tunnel, which is why she considered it.
The other question was more subtle: at 1:11 you were looking ahead and pointing ahead, which turned your shoulders slightly away from the line to the middle jump. You can see her look at you there over the bar (and tick the bar) as she seeks more info. So pointing your hand to her nose and being connected more will smooth that out.
You can play with this again if you like, adding more distance between the jumps – that challenges her to commit even further away! Because you are adding distance, you can throw her frisbee reward out on the line to keep the value high for committing miles away.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Hi!
>Yeah, this game is not really his jam. I went out early this morning – he does not like heat, despite being from a hot climate. I moved the jumps apart and he was sniffing the ground and looking for wildlife, then he’d humor me and go do a jump. He does not struggle going out to the second jump. The food is not that rewarding for him >
It is probably not the work, it is probably the reinforcement is not very motivating.
>and he’s on a very limited diet right now (we’re finally on a diet that has eliminated the chronic GI problems he was having).>
I am glad he is doing better! The GI issues will also reduce his motivation for work, especially when food is involved and if the food is part of a limited diet, poor guy! So….
>I’d like to try again with a toy – that might go better. Or I might switch to the second game with the tunnel.>
Yes, and also yes. Bring a frizz or a fun toy or a ball, and move into the games with the tunnel too! No need to do 1000 reps of the lazy game 🙂
>The week after you were here, I had a chance to take him to a seminar and he really wowed me with what he was able to do. I had never really done any sequencing and he was taking jumps like a pro.>
Yay! That is exciting!
>So I know he can do this lazy game, but I need to find something to motivate him more.>
The main lazy game goal is to make sure that the dogs will drive around jumps without needing us to run like crazy people to each jump – so having a more motivating reward will make a huge difference.
>On the DW, he’s till trying to figure everything out. The mat is half on the plank and half on the ground right now. It took a lot for work to get him to break out of trotting, so we’re kind of more focused on keeping that enthusiasm up and having him run. I do really short sessions – like 4 reps. He has a lot of value for his mat, so he rarely misses it, but as you saw, the way he hits it is not yet consistent. I believe he will ultimately hit with rear feet, but we aren’t picking on that part yet.>
He is definitely figuring it out. It is possible that he will be a front foot hit dog, or a rear foot hit dog – if you can get ahead and watch the contact zone, you will be able to see his preference as the DW gets taller (keeping it low for too long is not good for striding, so raise it as quickly as you can!)
>He has learned how to jump on and off the plank at various heights (with the plank on a table, spanning 2 tables, and then the low DW). We’ve also worked various approaches to the board – both on the flat and with the board, starting with proper to help him line up to load.>
Perfect! Keep revisiting it to keep the foundation strong!
>Stopping him and doing just the down plank wasn’t working for him because I’d lose all my speed, so he was allowed to do the whole low DW, which is helping him. As you know, it’s quite a journey…>
I totally know! And I bet just doing the down ramp was getting walking or trotting. Running the whole thing is much better for him, he seems to be really doing great!
Tracy
Hi!
>I found when I threw a treat for each jump in the early sessions she tended to stop and wait till I threw the treat.>
Ha! She is very smart 🙂 And her feedback is noted: we need to be more variable with the rewards so she doesn’t stop and wait because the rewards have been too predictable 🤣
She did great here though, finding the jump with you being nice and lazy about moving 🙂 Perfect! Keep spreading the jumps apart so she works bigger and bigger distances – you got even more speed when you added distance. And you can add the tunnel too, building up to the 2nd and 3rd parts of the game (and into the sequences that are coming next!)
Great job!
TracyHi!
All of the games are going really well!
Mountain Climbers are looking really good! He seemed perfectly happy to run up the plank with it moving a bit, even with the different angles of entry from the wing and more speed. Yay! It looks like he was wanting to jump off the teeter as soon as he got his treat. You can use a little dab of cream cheese for him to lick instead of a treat – that way it doesn’t fall off and you have time to go help him turn around and come back down 🙂 Then you can reward again for staying at the top of the board when you arrive. When he is happy with that, you can add in walking past the teeter a bit or moving away laterally, so he sees some handling independence.
Wingin’ It: The one step sends looked great! You were perfect about sticking close to the tunnel and sending. And the FC after the middle wing also looked great.
The only thing I would recommend ramping up is the exit line connection. You were making connection by looking back and using your dog-side arm – but that closes your shoulders and blocks connection a bit, so he was going a little wide until he could see the next line. If you use exit line connection more (dog-side arm is way back, pointing back to his nose, opposite arm across your body) then you will see how much tighter he turns 🙂
He did really well with the lazy game too! I think your commitment can be clearer back to him: as he is approaching the jump after the tunnel, look at him and step to the takeoff spot of the middle jump. You did this best at :49 and 1:12, but you can make an even bigger connection (and keep your hand more pointed to his nose :))
On the sends, you were turning forward and pointing at the jump ahead, which will break connection a bit. It did not matter to him one bit here, because he totally understood the assignment 🙂 But the connected sends will make things easier as we add more complicated sequences.Yo can add even more distance if you like! And if you think you will be doing AKC with him, bring the distances in closer to he learns to manage those smaller spaces as well.
Great job! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Hi! Great to see you and Arrow! I know life interrupted but he is doing really well! I remember that he as a rockstar in MaxPup 1, and now he is at a perfect age to start adding these skills.
The lazy game looked really good – he was very very happy to take jumps and eat treats 🙂 And he found several in a row, no problem at all. He is looking at you a little, but that is mainly because there is nothing else to look at (the game is easy for him). Since he was vey successful and found that center jump even when you moved it further away, you can add 2 things:
– less motion from you here, to see if he can still find all the jumps very independently
– add parts 2 and 3, he is ready for them 🙂Plank confidence is also looking really good – he is definitely confident! No problem turning around on the plank. Approaching the plank from different angles was no problem – he was able to get on a balance. You can add even crazier angles at this stage: think of the ugliest angle you would never want to see… and let’s show it to him at this stage with the board on the ground.
You can raise the plank a bit if you have really stable things (less than a foot tall) to put under each end and the center. That will challenge his balance! And when the plank is elevated a bit, you can also challenge his balance by having him slowly change positions from a stand to a down to a sit to a down to a stand, and so on. That might be hard!
Great job here!
Tracy
