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Hi!
>H I think the reason I disliked the training session so much was I can see the stress I was causing her, and that makes me feel icky (technical term!). >
That is always a signal to stop and watch the video! When something is going sideways and I don’t know how to change things… video time!
> but she was clearly confused and frustrated, and I was annoyed FOR her when I was watching the video, lol.>
And we don’t want any confusion or frustration to get built into the start line, so definitely best to hash it out and get her happy.
>I found that playing the pattern games and playing with a toy on top of warm-up to get her body ready to run was wearing her out before we got to the startline, >
Interesting! It might be that you were going on for too long? If I get to the ring 7 minutes before a run for example (which is a long time LOL), I spend most of that just hanging out. Pattern game maybe when I first get into the environment, then if there is a struggle… the volume dial in the last minute before the run. The physical warm up might also be done in that time frame too, although much of it is done before I get to the ring area. So time how long you are out there and see if you can cut it down, so you can add in the games again.
>However, I think that with all of the things you mentioned (dopamine, adolescent hormones and brain development, frustration, etc.), she’s showing me that she really does need some of those games.>
They all do need some semblance of a mental warm up, and exactly what they need will change throughout their career.
> I will also play the freeze game. We haven’t done that, but I think she would LOVE it! >
It is silly fun: get her wild, play with a toy, turn on some good music – then just sat ‘stay’ and freeze, then reward. Start off easy 🙂 and don’t move away yet. Over time, you will be able to move away really quickly. I actually used it in the insanity of flyball this past weekend: I had an early pass (oops!) so I had to re-run to win the race, but I couldn’t send for the re-run until the dog after him had gotten far enough back to us. Since CB has done the freeze dance game, I ran back, turned around to face the box… and said stay. He froze until I said “GO!” Then he nailed the re-run. Everyone else was like “did you just say stay and he froze?” Yes! Freeze dance silliness for the win! Works great for agility start lines too LOL
>For the brain scramblers, her brain was pretty scrambled listening to your dogs play it. 🤣>
Things get a little wild here in Sklenarville hahahahaha
> We haven’t played that one before (I don’t think it was in any of the Max Pup classes that I have??), >
It is in the Want To Stay, Ready To Go class and I know it is in brain camp stuff. I have a video somewhere that combines the tunnel scramblers with a freeze dance stay – it is hilarious but I can’t find it!
>I’m not sure I can do the 3rd level more than once or twice before the neighbors start thinking I’m murdering her. She has BIG FOMO!!!>
Ha! Yes, my neighbors think I am deranged (and they might be right :))
Keep me posted!
Tracy
Hi!
>Enjoy a couple of bloopers, lol. She’s such a funny dog!>
She is so fun! Just a happy joyous critter 🙂
This session went well:
Very nice chill lead outs and more connection on rep 2 and after that helped! Good rewards here!
I notice that you ‘dismount’ the lineup position and move away very immediately to your lead out spot, and she almost always moves her feet toward you. Sometimes it is 2 feet, sometimes only 1 foot… but always movement. So even at home, you are getting a lot of movement in the stay, which I can see becoming too much movement when she is more excited at a trial.
Something to try is to dismount, step to the side a little and pause, allowing her to settle into her position. Then remind her to stay and move to your lead out position.
Seq 1:
A small blooper at the beginning (1:47) where you pulled away to your left, off the parallel path, so she turned (and you said left) At 2:28 you were much better at staying on the parallel path until you were very sure she is committing to 4 (you still had plenty of time to handler 5-6).
The BC at 2:31 was a little late – she was lifting off when you start so she landed long after 5. The timing of decel and brake arms on 6 was good!
The timing at 4:07 of the blind was super! That allowed you to start your decel sooner too. Based on how well she read the decel and brake arms at 2:31, I don’t think you need the spin here – it kind of tangled you up a little bit!
The switch cue surprised her at 2:38. Decel and bigger arm cues will help her (and repeating the switch verbal too) which will also let you layer the last line – you said it once and were running forward at the same pace, so she looked back at you before turning away. That happened at 3:32 when you were isolating it too.
On the last rep, you did put the decel into the switch and the turn was much tighter AND I didn’t see her look back at you. Super! You can start the decel there even sooner, just as she exits the tunnel. I also use big arm cues to kind of ‘swoosh’ the dog away. Both the earlier decel and the arm swoosh will allow you to cue the tight turn and hang back so you can layer the end too!
Great job here!
Tracy
Hi!
Super clever to cut the ground bars off to give yourself more flexibility, and also clever to use weaves in the middle for now – it keeps you visible while adding layering challenges. Super!
First video:
The most helpful thing for building the layering will be throwing the rewards. That includes for when he gets the jumps, and also when he is close to the jumps 😁 and on the other side of the layering obstacle. So even though he didn’t take the jump on the first rep, he did go to the other side of the weaves so you can totally reward that with a throw reward.
Running the line with him on the 2nd rep helped him see the jumps, so he was able to layer on rep 3. Yay! That is a good spot to throw the reward too (between jumps 3 and 4) to affirm and reward his choice to stay out on the line. It will also help him keep the bar up on 4, because he will be jumping in bigger extension.
Second video:
>Ven struggled more in this direction. >
All of the dogs have found this side harder, including my own. I think the angle is a little harder for them, for some reason.
On the first rep, he thought about going out to jump 3 and you can reward that! I like to reward for looking at the line in these early stages of layering training. And the thrown rewards will also help build more value for staying on the line than for coming back to you 😁 He was getting reset rewards, but you can throw the reset reward out on the line to help him get the concept. And when he did get jump 3… throw the reward! You cued 4 and went towards it but not over it, so got rewarded from your hand again.
Angling the jump and moving past the weaves a little definitely helped! On the last rep, you changed things up to send more and move less, but I think the moving helped hm more – staying on the parallel line is a really helpful cue for him.
An idea for the layering sessions: rather than think of it as trying to run the sequence, think of it as trying to get reward out on the line (and as far away from you as possible LOL!!). That will add value to the lines which in turn will make the sequences much easier to use layering. He doesn’t have to be perfect and take the jumps – you can reward for heading out that direction, and throw the reward to a spot between the 2 layering jumps.
>Thinking we’ll revisit it Sun morning with tunnel instead of weaves. They might be a little high value>
The weaves were a good choice because he could see your motion really well, but you can also try the tunnel (you might have to turn the ends down so he can’t get into it LOL!) But the most important thing will be the reward placement out on the line, then you can use either the weaves or tunnel, whichever you like!
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Hi!
She did great here – I agree that the lotus ball really helped her commit to the jump!It was hard to see where she was looking because the bars on the jump wing were blocking her cute face 😊 but it looks like she was looking at you. You can keep playing with this to get her to glance at the jump more and even turn her head to it, so you are sure about her commitment when you are behind her like on the last rep, or on the other side of the tunnel (she’s totally ready for that!).
Playing with getting her to look at the lotus ball and at a wing can all be done indoors in the a/c so you don’t have to worry about her or you getting too hot. It had been so hot!!!! And that will transfer easily to the jump.
Great job!
TracyGood morning!
>I really liked Bobbi and Dr. Murphy’s recent webinar about reward/learning/motivation. >
I am glad you liked it – it was really interesting!!
>Thinking about reward less like traditional reward and more about how it motivates …. that’s definitely interesting!! >
Absolutely – and also what actually *is* a reinforcement versus just rehearsal. It goes way beyond traditional operant conditioning and gets us to much better places in our training 🙂
>And the concept of how learning happens when the reward/lack of reward doesn’t match the expected reward. So interesting.>
YES, this! And understanding dopamine systems also helps us understand why withholding reward/punishing can cause issues – either when we do it too much, or when we do it when the dog was correct (and they are correct 99% of the time 🤣😂)
The more we know, the better we train. It is fun stuff to learn about, I am glad you are in there with us!
>Decided that I have 2 goals for Summer Camp…..practice those verbals so that I can use the verbals
The package 3 handling stuff is very specific about using verbals while running. That is the top question I get from everyone: how the heck to remember all the darn words AND be connected AND run. So, stay tuned for package 3 🙂
>and still stay connected to Sly and be more fun….less studious, more fun!>
Great goal! We humans get very studious and in our own heads, and dogs can read that as punishment sometimes. And since they are not mice in a lab, and based on how their brains have evolved, they really need the engagement from us as part of the reward system.
Looking at the video:
> First rep on Sequence 3 I was thinking more about my handling (get there for the blind) and not enough about what Sly was doing… too early on the blind from 5 to 6. >
Yes – a bit too early. But rather than mark it and stop (even to reward) – just keep going. Sure, he was following you correctly but the big marker and stopping can still be perceived as relative punishment. So, just keep going and cue the next thing.
The 2nd blind at :45 was better in terms of committing him to 5! You can be a stride or too earlier there. 1:13 was spot on in terms of the timing! You were finished with the blind and re-connected before he took off. SUPER!!!
The bar dropped there – it looks like it was because you went past the line you wanted, causing him to jump past the line. Then as he was taking off, you were pushing back towards 6 so he tried to adjust in the air.
The timing at 2:00 was not quite as perfect as the timing at 1:13, but it was still good and more importantly – it looks like your running line was more directly towards 6 so he had no questions. Yay!
>Sequence 4, should’ve rewarded after 4 on the first rep. He had a little bit of a question and I missed the opportunity for that unexpected reward and helping the learning>
Agree! He was heading out there asking questions (there is something out there next to the wall that put pressure on the line too) so a reward in between the 2 jumps would have been good. But he did get rewarded, which is good – the placement out on the line will be more effective for getting the layering and for making sure he knows it is not all about coming back to you 🙂
He had a question about going all the way out there on the next rep when you tried not to go past the tunnel, so that definitely points towards the reward needing to be on the landing side of 4 more. He got it on the last rep really well when you went another step or two past the tunnel – and you were still able to get the layering done really well too.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
>Lift would like to thank her Counsel and says, I rest my case, so there, stoopid hooman!>
Ha!
I mean, in the time that I have known Lift, she has never actually been wrong, so I always take her feedback very seriously LOL
and yay for the weave poles!!!!!
T
Hi! This went well!
Nice blind 5-6 each time!!! And good work with the verbals here too!
On the first rep, the info was a little late for the 7 jump on the post turn: you were facing the wall and she was jumping into the wall so the bar was down at :07 (she just didn’t know how tight the turn was).
Compare to the reps at :15 and :27 and :35 where you turned to face the new line sooner (really whipped your shoulders around in the post turn) and she kept the bar up (earlier info meant earlier organization for the jump). The last rep with the spin was GREAT! It got you turned to the next line sooner than the other options and she did great.
One thing I am noticing is that she often keeps the bars up on the ‘easy’ lines on the first run (the bar down at :07 was more about late handling). Then as the session continues, she drops more bars for no real reason other than not quite powering over the bars enough. So a question: How much time does she have between reps? She might need more time to let her muscles recover (lactic acid build up, etc) so she is at full power for each rep. Can you do one rep with her, than maybe a run with Sassy the go give Grace cookies 🙂 then come back 5 minutes later and try another with Maisy? I am curious to see if that helps her.
Nice work here!!! Let me know what you think.
Tracy
Hi!
I am glad you got through the brutal weather week! We had it here on Monday-Thursday. SO HOT! It made yesterday’s 85 degrees seem downright cool and comfy. And it sounds like your ankle is doing better – yay!
Looking at Kaladin’s video: He has layering experience and did really well! For him, you can stretch the sequence out as far as the yard allows: how much distance can he do? It would be fun to find out!
Since he has an understanding of layering so he was able to do sequence 1 without much motion, good boy! You can add more motion by sticking closer to 1 and 2 to get more speed into the layering, and deliver the “out go jump” verbals before takeoff for 2 (they were at landing of 2, which is a little late).
Sequence 2 had more motion into the layer so he really powered into it! On this one too, you can give the “go out there and layer” verbals before he takes off for 2.
Seq 3: On the first run, the FC 5-6 can be sooner. You did it as he was over 5 and ideally it would be finished by then. That caused a bit of wideness over 5 and 6 as well because the late FC caused the turn cues to be late.
Nice timing adjustment for the FC timing at 1:10! It was earlier, finished before takeoff, so the turn was better there too, and the turn on 6 was better too. It would be fun to see if the turn he did here was faster or slower than you adding more collection cues, like brake arms or even a spin. You can try all 3 and we can time it!
>The indoor space in Animal Inn was a lot cooler than the sauna outside but the ring is long and narrow with Great Mats (not the comfort king she runs on at Fusion). >
I am very glad they moved it indoors!!!!
>She figured out the footing quickly and started out well but relapsed into a Leaping Lizard as the session progressed.>
We haven’t seen the LL in a long time – do you have video so we can see why it was happening? It is possible that she seemed to figure out the foot, but was compensating and devoting a LOT of bandwidth to it – which can be frustrating! So it is possible that the LL moments were footing related. I have certainly seen frustration happen caused by footing issues!
>A waiting dog erupting in a fit of really loud barking just outside the ring right before her 2nd sequence in the first rep did not help >
Poor girlie! Yes, it does take a lot of bandwidth to recover – that plus the heat outside plus the footing plus the sequencing plus you not running normally might have just added up to not a lot of brain juice left over.
Looking at the video:
>She does some exciting leaping as we are starting>
That seems to be part of her “I am really excited and ready” mode, so I think it is great 🙂
>then the frustrated leaping lizard shows up later>
I think she had a good point here about the info she was seeing! And also the rate of success/rate of reinforcement got low which brought on the frustration (more on that below).
Bearing in mind that she is new to this level of challenge, she had a valid point at :22 when she was heading to the 3 jump then came off the line:
At :22 you were rotated facing the tunnel with your arm up really high. She processed the Go verbal to override the motion and was heading out to 3 (GOOD GIRL!).
But because you had gotten in a little close to the tunnel and stood still, your next movement was to your left which took you off of the parallel path line she needed to see to support the layering.
She stayed on the correct side of the tunnel but then when you stopped and didn’t reward, she perceived it as punishment and got a little mad (she was correct that the info was a little confusing). Even though you praised her, it was frustrating to her because following a big effort, it was a withdrawal of reinforcement opportunity and you walked away from her. You were walking away to place the toy, but she didn’t know that. So you can totally throw the reward to reward the effort of getting out close to the line. Then you can place the toy to help, but also watch the video to see what caused her to come off the line.
You had more parallel path motion as she was approaching 3 at :46, plus the placed toy was good visual – fun to see that the jump was more valuable!
Something very similar happened on the first rep of sequence 2: You went past the tunnel to get her to take 3 (which she did) then as she was approaching 3, you pulled away laterally to get back to the other side of the tunnel, which cued a right turn on 3 which she executed brilliantly.
She stayed out on the other side of side of the tunnel reading the info – didn’t get rewarded and instead you turned your back on her and walked away. I am sure you were planning your next rep but from her perspective it was punishing (negative punishment, withdrawal of reinforcement opportunity) which is frustrating especially since she was reading the info correctly. She barked a BIG CURSE WORD at you when you turned your back to her.
She did get a cookie when you got back to your line up spot, but that was a solid 10 seconds later so it did not correlate to the sequence you had run.
Then at 1:20, you broke connection a little on the way to 2 (pointing forward with your back to her) and she boiled over into LLF (Leaping Lizard Frustration), having a big mad. From her perspective, she’d already been told she was wrong after processing information as best she could (and correctly), so she had the Big Mad when the info was unclear.
At 1:54, you had a similar pull away from 3 but you threw the reward for getting 3 and the effort of trying to read the cues: excellent!! That is what she needed (and then watch the video to see why she was coming off the line). You can also throw the reward for her getting close to the 4 jump at 2:23! Throw it early when she is looking at it, rather than wait til she lands from it. She got a little unsure when she had to layer the tunnel AND the tree.
Basically, even if she doesn’t take the jumps perfectly, you are shaping the layering by getting the toy out there and telling her: yes, being out there is where you should be. And then she will start finding the jumps on her own when she understands the line.
I grabbed screenshots so you see the moments she was seeing and basing her responses off of:
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1L3Fhfpj_GUjJA28LZHdvSGAwcr9Ngy61IIoCPJ99WNg/edit?usp=sharingSo I think the leaping moments here were her saying “HEY I AM DOING IT RIGHT, WHY NO REWARD HOOOOOMAN?” and in a Sheltie court of law, I think the jury would agree with her LOL!!!! So make throwing the reward or using effort rewards the highest priorities when training these, and even if it goes wrong: stay engaged and reward 🙂
>massage therapist on Wednesday did find tightness in her grasilis and more on the right than the left. It did loosen up but I’m keeping a close eye on it and massaging her some too. It certainly doesn’t seem to be inhibiting her airborne tendencies.?
Interesting!! I think the gracilis is responsible for explosive speed on lines and turns – it is a common injury in whippets/greyhounds/whippet mixes. I don’t think it is as involved in leaping up as it is in driving lines in extension, but I will do more research. I think what helps keep the gracilis happy is active warm up where we ramp up to speed gradually then do some explosive movements in the warm up. Let me ask my whippet racing people what they do to properly warm it up and keep it happy 🙂
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Good morning!
It is great that you got to set this up indoors!>So I pulled a muscle and can’t run very well.>
Sorry about the pulled muscle, hope it heals quickly! You moved through these courses really well – you were strategic with your position and use of distance, so you got everywhere you needed to be without needing to sprint.
>She struggled in first two dog walks so I adjusted the jump to make the approach better for her.>
Yes- the 2 jump here looks like it was set up just a stride or so too far from the line, so she landing wide and couldn’t quite adjust – I am glad you adjusted it!
So much good stuff on this video! You did really well with both courses!!
Course 1:
After adjusting the line the to DW, the opening ran well. Great job on the backside at 4 then the send to the teeter. – nice independent teeter! You ended up past the tunnel at :34 and did a side change then another side change which ended up blocking the line to 8 at :35 (she cursed at you a little there 🤣😂) so try to run to the next line without over helping on the teeter. You can head directly to your position and trust her teeter skills (and reward them a lot to maintain them 🙂 )
You did a spin on the jump before the weaves at :40 – you can be moving away towards the weaves as she is committing at :39 so you are out of the way when she lands. That will show her a better line to the weave entry.
Excellent weave independence so even though you were not running full throttle and protecting the pulled muscle, you still got past the a-frame to set the turn 12-13 beautifully! Super nice line there!!!
You can start the FC 14-15 at :53 sooner: try to get ti going as soon as she exits the tunnel (or a bind cross there, which is quicker to finished and how the line). More importantly, connect back to her as you exit the cross, so she sees where to be when she lands. She drifted a little wide because she didn’t know which side to be on, until she saw 15.
Backside at 16 and ending line looked great – fabulous connection! Super!!!!
Course 2 also ran really well!
Nice opening 1-2-3 both times!! I liked the 2nd run through there (starting at 2:37) even more because you were moving through it more, so she powered through it more too.
Heading to the backside on 5: You can tell her where she is going before she enters the 4 tunnel so she doesn’t curl in for a stride then go back out to the backside. The backside verbal can start before she enters the tunnel and then keep saying it as she exits.
The 6-7-8-9 line looked good! Very nice!!!
She had a question about the 10 jump: she got it each time, but at 1:30 she had to hit the brakes hard because the RC info was a little late.
On the 2nd run at 2:50 you did a FC there and she had to adjust right before takeoff because the FC was late (she was already out of the tunnel). I think the RC you did on the previous rep was a good plan, she just needed the cues to start as she exited the tunnel. Or, a blind cross is quicker to finish so she can see the new side sooner (instead of a FC).
Excellent timing on the backside cues at 1:33 and 2:53 for 12! Her line almost became a RC on the flat where she started on your right then ended up on your left to be sent to the backside – you can keep her on your right there for a threadle wrap rather than switch right to left side. That will be a little smoother and faster.
Her teeter confidence is impressive (keep rewarding it!) She had a couple of questions about it when you were moving away too early:
She was not sure about the teeter at 1:37 – comparing it to :29 where she had a lot of confidence going to it, you faced the line longer at :29 to help commit her. At 1:37, you gave the verbal as she was approaching 13 (jump before the teeter) but turned away very early so that overrode the verbal and she changed her line. At 1:44, you faced the line for a step or two longer and she got it.Yay!
She took the teeter with you moving away early at 2:59, but part of that was she had learned the sequence 🙂 So on a new course/sequence, be sure to give her one or two steps towards it to support the verbal and the distance. And without movement at 3:23, she came off the line when you turned too early. Then at 3:34 you got her to it but moved down the line and said “good girl!” so she came off (perhaps thinking the good girl was a release to a reward).
So the best reps on the teeter send had you facing the line for one more stride as she was landing from the previous jump. She had a great stay in her position on the bottom of the teeter!
Looking at the line after the teeter: This is another spot to trust her teeter skills and go directly to your next handling position.
At 1:54 and 3:04 you were a little too far past the tunnel and blocked the line to the backside at 16 after it for a moment (she had a little zig zag there). At 3:26 and 3:54, you were showing the wing of the backside as she exited the tunnel and she had a very direct line to the backside. That looked great!At 4:34 you handled that section (15-16-17) by doing a threadle then rear crossing 16. She read it but added strides to get all the info, so it was slower than pushing from the landing side and sending to the 17 jump from a little ahead of her 🙂
17-18-19 was fabulous on the first run!
At 3:08, she read the cues to 17 as a threadle wrap – you were looking forward and turned parallel to the threadle wrap line it looks like a threadle wrap cue.At 3:56 you were pretty perfect with your connection and line to 17 – super nice line there!!!
After the dog walk:
Great job getting the backside each time! You did a BC 19-20 on the first rep: Using the BC there, you can the BC 19-20 sooner, as soon as you see her on the way to the 19 backside you can start it so it is finished before she takes off. That will likely mean starting the blind just before she arrives at the entry wing of 19. You were a little late at 2:03 so she had to adjust the line after landing.You might not need a blind there at all, though – keeping her on your right and either doing a BC between 20 and 21, or a RC on 21 (like you did at 2:07) worked really well! The trick to that one is to send to the 19 backside without getting too close to the landing side of 19:
At 4:04 you got on her line by accident and pushed her to the backside of 20. Good job getting a reward in for her there, she was being a good girl 🙂 You gave her an in-in threadle at 4:43 there but I think all you needed was to be a little further from her line at 19, turn your shoulders, and call her name.
The RC on 21 at 4:46 looked great! And puts you ahead for the next line too.
Lovely ending line here! Those independent weaves look great and make it easy for you to show her the end. Yay!
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Good morning!
>Yesterday morning cricket and I went to run course 2 agility and she refused to run. She has done this at Kathie Leggett’s and the best we could figure it started with a wet tunnel. Ginger and I tried bringing her there on a hot dry day and she refused (literally tries to leave). Then when Taq got sick I tried to Sub Cricket for a jen Pinder seminar and cricket walked in fine but the minute we started agility she declined this was full year later. So needless to say I freaked out that she was broken. >
I admit to freaking out a bit just reading this: omg, what is wrong, is she sick, is she injured, do we have a motivation issue caused by some underlying thing…….
>There was water in the tunnel. I broke down the course and set up a jumping pop out this AM. She worked!!!! Thank god. So dry tunnels only. Oddly enough if it is raining they can be wet.> CRICKET WHY YOU GOTTA SCARE EVERYONE?!?!?! 🤣 I got more grey hairs just reading this! That is interesting about the wet tunnels, but maybe I only think it is odd because everything here is wet in the Southeast and California is a dry environment by comparison?
Do you think she has an aversion to a wet tunnel that generalized? Maybe she slipped and it hurt once, so now all wet tunnels are evil? You can rebuild the love if you have one of those tiny 3 foot tunnels and add a tiny bit of wetness? Or send her here to lovely Virginia to train, where you might notice me wearing tall rain boots in some of the demo videos because it is SO WET here in the mornings during the cooler times of day LOL!
Taq looked great on the video! She is doing some seriously grown up stuff 🙂
I am excited about her stay – on the first rep, she had an excellent stay with lateral distance, and then finding jump 1 really well when released. She had a tiny step to you before finding the jump.
She had a little bit more of a question on rep 2 (sequence 2) with a bigger step to you before finding the jump, so keep working the forward focus skill to get her to look at the jump (even if you place a toy or target) to build it up over time and eliminate that extra step
Because of the lead out on both of these sequences, she knew exactly where she was going 1-2 and had a great turn and a ton of speed!
>The first one I felt like I could be moving faster and I missed some connections.>
I think you were moving plenty fast! At :13, it looks like you looked forward to see where 4 was then still looked a bit forward as you were handling it. She slowed a little and was not 1000% certain of where to be – it was subtle, just a tiny extra stride or two.
Nice connection on the exit of the FC of 4! You can maintain that connection on the send til she is past you can committing to the 5 jump (you were looking a little forward there too) so she was a little sticky.
The turn to the tunnel and threadle wrap and ending line looked great! Fabulous combo of fast and tight! *Perfect* timing and execution of your threadle wrap cue at :20!!
When you ran it again at the end of the video, you had lovely connection on the opening line! Yay! You might be able to decelerate sooner into the wrap on 4 to get a little more collection – but that might not actually be faster! A good game to try with her is to run that sequence and get the tightest turn you can on 4. Then run it again with a turn that looked like the one here at 1:02, which had more extension… then we time it and see which is faster. The answer with small dogs is often that the slightly more extended turn is faster!
On the threadle wrap cues at 1:06, your timing of starting it was spot on again! Then you stepped in to her line too early, which pushed her back to the front of the jump. Compare to the previous rep at :22, you didn’t use your feet much at all there. The cue had your feet mostly facing forward parallel to her line, and the cue was mainly upper body. So definitely keep your feet parallel to her line on the threadle wraps and try not to step in to the line.
We have more on these threadle wraps coming on Monday, along with some good bloopers that isolate feet doing the right and wrong things 🙂
Sequence 2:
She had a long look at the tunnel on the wrap at 3 (:35) That is a hard challenge, the tunnel is a big delicious visual right there – I think your connection was really strong! And the timing of the wrap cues were good (you were rotated before she took off) so you can add a little more deceleration into it and call her name as you are exiting the FC and running up the next line. At :44 you did have good deceleration but rotate a bit too early
On the send to the 5 jump at :38 – this is where more connection and less arm will help! As she is over the 4 jump, your timing was good of beginning the cues but you were pointing with your arm – and that turned your shoulders away from the jump so she didn’t take it.
Compare to the rep at :49 where you had connection to her over the 4 jump and sent with less arm. Your arm followed her line as she headed to the jump, as opposed to pointing to the jump ahead of her. The connection turned your shoulders t the line you wanted and she had no questions 🙂 and having your arm follow her line rather than point ahead of her made a huge difference. She found the jump with no questions, had a tight turn and a ton of speed along the next line. Super!
>I don’t think I ran faster… why do I look so slow?>
I think you are moving plenty fast, don’t bug yourself about it 🙂 Agility handling is like being a tight end in football – you have to run with your head turned and make multiple changes of direction. That appears slower compared to an Olympic sprinter who only has to run forward in one direction, with their head forward. But tight ends are PLENTY fast and get the job done beautifully, like you did here!
Great job!
Tracy
Good morning!
>I knew I liked you!>
Back at ya! We both have terriers and a blue merle pointy dog, we are clearly meant to hang out and train LOL!!
> I don’t find the toy stealing that offensive either, >
That is good! It was kind of adorable and he was having fun 🙂 And it didn’t delay things too much so he still got a lot of good reps in too!
>but of course EVERY other trainer I work with insists it has to be under cue control and just makes me feel like unless he can 100% work with a preplaced toy and NEVER take it unless cued then we shouldn’t even be doing agility. >
Yeah……… I have thoughts about that LOL but mainly that it is not something I agree with 🤣. I am guessing that those folks need to own & train a terrier or sighthound (or Papillon hahahaha) at some point 🙂
>Keeping the naughty feels way more natural for a terrier.>
There is actually a lot of science with basically says, “sure, it is not a problem to let them steal the toy sometimes and have a laugh and play” and lots of science that says also it might produce more motivation and be better for learning/memory/resilience to NOT have the toy placed and all of that control on it. Toy placement is a bit rooted in operant conditioning/transactional learning which is fine because OC is a part of learning, of course… but it is actually a pretty small piece of it and ultra control on a toy on the ground might be detrimental to the other elements which are super important! Fascinating, nerdy stuff 🙂
>While he loves toys here at home, in trial environments, especially dirt where we trial most often, he’s too overstimulated to play with them. Dirt especially- YUCK! He MIGHT play with a toy in public on turf, I’m judging at a turf trial July 4 and plan to run him on my last course of the day after the trial is over if possible to test it out. >
Yes, dirt can change it. Have you ever tried real animal parts on the toy? Gross but effective – I found a squirrel toy from a vendor at a show that is squirrel fur (with tail, feet, etc) and a tiny water bottle in it for extra bone crunching. It is on a line so it is relatively long, great for dragging/chasing. It is the most motivating toy I have. I also have a fur covered lotus ball that the dogs are nuts for too, and I don’t need to put food in it even for the foodie dogs.
>Since he LOVES people, I did recently run him using our food reward area, sending him to a person to feed him, then calling him back in to work again. Struggled a bit to call him away back into the ring, but my helper was a bit too exciting and didn’t really understand what I wanted her to do to help him>
That is great, though, even if it didn’t go perfectly! Having a person in the ring to help can open up a lot of possibilities plus he can learn about the presence of the other person also indicating the presence and upcoming availability of food!
> (and because he was soooo excited when he did come back in the ring to me, he still had food in his lips that fell out of his mouth, shhh! Don’t tell UKI, I’m just going to get a different helper and make sure they practice with us beforehand).>
Ha! I will never tell LOL!!! I am glad they at least off the food box – it has helped a lot of dogs!
Stay cool!
Tracy
Hi! She did really well here, I think she likes layering!! And I like how it helps her look forward at the bars, which resulted in very few bar issues.
Keep repeating the out verbal and say it loudly so she really propels!
She had a jumping question about bar 1 on sequence 2. This is a great spot to be able to use your forward focus, so she is looking at the jump before the release. That should result in touching it a lot less. When she dropped it at :13 and ticked it on the other reps, it was because she was looking at you when you released and started to move.
She had a little trouble with bar 3 on sequence 2. She was looking forward but maybe anticipating the next line? She didn’t hit a bar on the first rep of seq 1 or 2, possibly because she didn’t know the next line and had to look at each bar. So you can keep her looking at each bar a bit more by randomizing the reward throw or placement – sometimes reward at the end of the line like you did here, and sometimes in the middle of the line between the jumps (I think that is where the reward was at :34).
Great job here!
TracyHi!
>So much for Pick being a “maybe”, he’s gotten more working time on this than Roots has!>
Yay Pick! He is really fun! Super nice session!
>We worked the first sequence on the four corners drill. Yes, 3+ minutes worth of working on one 4 obstacle sequence! I left in all reps (the 4 rep rule doesn’t seem applicable when just forward chaining to teach a skill?) including him stealing the preplaced toy twice. >
The 4 rep concept is for each sequence or course, just so people don’t do something like 200 jumps in a session. Chaining a skill is something that will be broken down into multiple reps, so it is easier to time the session to 5 minutes or less and take breaks, if that makes sense. Your session here was lovely!
>including him stealing the preplaced toy twice. Self control: not the terrier’s strong suit! He’s little, not super fast, not super confident, so layering has been hard for him to learn, despite the fact that just running away and terrier-ing is his go to stress behavior (another reason that he’s 4 and still doesn’t trial).>
Ha! I will say that allowing a little bit of stealing things is great for self-confidence in terriers 🙂 Kind of a “Wow, so clever, you won the prize” approach as we very gently massage the behavior into what we want it to be. It is not exactly efficient for training the skill, but it is silly fun and terriers LOVE silly fun LOL I admit to cracking up when he did it. You can use food rewards to convince him to come with you and ignore the placed toy. The more confidence I want to build up, the more I engage with some of the so-called ‘naughty’ behaviors LOL!
He had a great forward focus on jump 1 and lots of speed! And you broke it down really well, to build up the layering understanding.
He did GREAT with the toy placement here, and with the big party you gave him for getting it right. He seemed to be having a grand time with the. Game and getting the prize. And he made an easy switch from the placed reward to the thrown reward. Really fun to watch!
And you can keep the fun going if he misses the 4 jump like at 2:24 – rather than mark in a way that might potentially tell him it was wrong, you can do more of a ‘game on’ approach: if the dog misses the jump and the placed reward, I run to get to the toy and play with it in the spot I wanted the dog to go. I play with the toy and tease the dog a bit, then try again. That is a bit of enhancement that can help with the behavior and also keep things really fun – dogs (terriers!) can be competitive for reinforcement, so they are not going to let me get there first again 🙂
Question: how does he feel about other humans? If he likes them, you can incorporate them into rewarding the big distances by having the other human throw and drag a reward for him to chase. You can transfer this type of fun to a UKI trial by having another human out there who throws then drags a toy (using a long leash or line). Ideally the person would be someone he likes and someone he has played the game with before – it can be a fun way to make the trial ring less stressful. If he doesn’t love other people… don’t do this LOL and you can be the one dragging a toy on a long line 🙂
>Also I decided to just “slap on the new verbals” for these soft turns because what could go wrong? (I’m less hesitant to experiment with things with him since he may never trial for reals, so who cares if I mess him up right?)>
I am completely on board with this philosophy! It went well!
>Questionable whether 4 is hup or go on, but moot point probably since I was rewarding there any way, it would be hup if we were continuing on to 5.>
I agree – go on for the reward, hup for when you continue to 5.
Great job here!
TracyHi!
Yes, the forecast for the week was icky and at least it will cool down a little in coming days? Maybe?
Yay for Nox nailing them!!!
>I struggled to figure out how to keep going after she missed a jump when the tunnel was in the way. In hindsight, I guess I could have just thrown the toy the correct direction she was supposed to go anyways. I didn’t want to send her in the tunnel and reward since that’s what she thought I wanted anyway (at least the coming in to me part).>
You can call her in to you and reset with a reward, partially to pay her and partially to line up for the next sequence.
>I don’t have an explanation for what I was doing on the very first rep of the first sequence, lol. I don’t think there was any thought process to that except old habits die hard.>
Ha! That is a great spot for a reset reward – the handling definitely pulled her off the line on that very first rep.
Great job accelerating more and throwing the reward! After that!
Seq2: This angle is definitely harder for the dogs. You can throw the reward as soon as she looks at the line to affirm that yes, she should look out there and head to that line.
Once she was on the line, she stayed on it really well!Seq 3:
The opening to this went great! The BCat 1:27 was a shade early for the big distance, you can let her get past the tunnel and look at 5. That is what you did at 1:43 and even better at 2:18 and it worked really well! As soon as you are finishing the blind, do a BIG reconnect so she sees the new side and start your decel and hand and verbal cues for the wrap on 6.A spin can work there too because it gets your feet turned to the new direction sooner than the decelerated post turn/brake arms.
Seq 4: Adding the hard line from seq 2, getting past the tunnel needed more support from you and less arm at 2:41. The arm up to send to the jump can inadvertently turn your shoulders to the tunnel.
At 3:11, you were closer to the line and your arm was down, and she got it really well! Yay!She had a question about the backside at the end of this sequence. She pays attention to everything and had a valid point:
At 3:16, excellent cues for the backside. Great timing!
At 3:17, as she was landing, you pulled your left arm back and turned your feet away from the backside line, and it looked like a threadle cue for a moment, so she started to come in to threadle. You pushed her back out at 3:18 and she saved your bacon by getting it at the last minute. GOOD GIRL! So remember to stay parallel to the backside line til you see her locking onto it, and don’t rotate your shoulders to much or turn your feet.Seq 5: looked really good!!! She is staying on her lines really well and your connection/timing is generally strong. You held the parallel line better to the backside at the end and she got it really well. My only suggestion on this one is that same as for sequence 3: you can make faster/clearer connection after the BC 5-6, to tighten her line there and start the turn cues sooner too.
Seq 6 went really well also! For the different 5-6 line, keep moving to your position on 7 and use a GO to keep her out on the line (the jump verbal might get muddy because there are a lot of jumps out there LOL!) Ideally, as she is taking off for 6, you are already rotated and standing still in your threadle position.
Nice job sending to 8 with the ‘right’ verbal, and decel – that was a lovely turn!
The switch was a little wide at 4:26 (you had a lot of acceleration and said jump which cued extension, then said switch as she took off). She drove to the off course tunnel partially because the turn was a little wide on the previous jump, but mainly because that was the obstacle you were running towards at 4:28. She couldn’t see enough connection there to know to stay on your right side because your arm was up and that was closing your shoulders/blocking connection. So based on motion and proximity, she was locked on to the tunnel until you opened up connection a little more and she was you wanted her on your right side. Good save (and she only cursed at you a little 🤣)Great job on these (and also great job adding startline rewards!
Tracy
Thanks for sending the start line clip! I look at it from what accidental cues are the dogs reading which are associated with the release?
>this a terrible training session in terms of choices I made. >
I read this and was steeling myself for something FAR worse – tempers flaring, etc. You stayed relatively calm! Maybe you sent the wrong video 🤣😂🤣
When the dogs go to the backside, that is a handler error – too much pressure on the line because of our position relative to the dog (where we are standing/facing/stepping) and the angle of the dog’s stay might be facing the backside. You can see that on the firs rep where you are still ‘inside’ the line of the wing and she leans into the backside line then self-releases. I think she self-released because you didn’t release, and normally you would have released by then.
For forward focus, if my dog is looking at the wrong spot, I will lower my arm (basically saying “not that jump”) then raise it again (“try again, dog”).
At :33, you were in about the same spot, she looked at the front (no release) then at the line to the back of the jump (release!) so she went to the back, as the release affirmed the line to the backside. Good spot for a reward as you reset.
1:05 – she is leaning to the backside when you released (you were tucked in too close, on the inside of the wing).
So the easiest thing to do to NOT get the backside, is to move yourself away more laterally. That takes the pressure off the line so she doesn’t confuse it with the backside line cue.
> But as the game of agility starting getting more fun and she got a little older, it has become inconsistent. >
Try to add more arousal before training any stays, and also video everything. I would bet you are accidentally pairing releases with something. It could be a certain amount of time before the release (3 seconds is something we all do by accident) or when we get to the jump or when we reconnect, etc etc. Dogs are amazing at reading all of this!
I also notice that when you lead out for real, you have a lot of muscle tension. That increases excitement for her… which we really don’t need. The increased muscle tension is what we use when we want MORE excitement about releasing from the stay LOL!
So you can lead with more chill. If having your arm up looks like muscle tension, you can lead out swinging your arms around. I do this partially to keep the arms relaxed and partially so I don’t pair the release with any arm movement.
> In other words, I don’t *think* that my nerves played a part in the startline issue surfacing. >
I don’t think it is nerves as much as it is she is anticipating something, creating the release. And also getting frustrated with being fixed a lot.
> it’s one more repetition practicing what I don’t want.>
This is true but we need to tell her how she is right and not how she is wrong – telling her she is wrong is going to get *more* movement, not less.
>I started fixing her feet moving because she WILL turn and face me instead of the first obstacle. She doesn’t always stand up, but her butt will rotate so her whole body is facing me. >
This might be causing frustration (for you both!). Fixing her feet is punishment and also that is generally pretty delayed, so she is not associating the punishment with the behavior it is intended to give feedback on. She might not even realize she is moving her feet.
So for now, take the pressure off the start line stay so it is filled with success. Then everyone relaxes and the stays magically get even better.
You can do this 2 ways:
Stick with short successful lead outs, with relaxed body language, making sure you are not accidentally pairing the release with anything like movement or arms or connection.
Don’t worry about if she moves her feet towards you on a lateral lead out, as long as she sticks to her end of the deal: she cannot move forward to the jump, she needs to take the jump you are cueing and she needs to keep the bar up. That is a deal that has created a lot of highly successful start line stays!
>I was also thinking that maybe she needed clarity that no movement is acceptable so that she wasn’t guessing what was allowed and what wasn’t. Is moving a foot across her body ok but moving 2 feet isn’t? Can she move both front feet as long as her butt doesn’t rotate? Can she do any moving if her butt never gets up? >
This all assumes she realizes you are giving feedback on foot movement. She might not realize it and might not realize her feet are moving. The dopamine release of simply entering the ring leads to movement (dopamine really drives movement). This is not happening on an operant level (“I choose to move my feet!”) so she might not have a conscious awareness of it.
And when she freezes in position? Big rewards! I do a lot of crazy freeze dance games with my dogs: tug tug bark bark tug tug FREEZE! in a stay… reward 🙂
>I assume it is an arousal issue, and I know she is more likely to get up when she’s tired or in an exciting environment. >
Arousal, dopamine, depletion, late adolescence, etc…. All normal. Keep doing the stuff you are working on separately, be sure you do it with the toy outside the ring, and keep doing crazy high arousal games like these:
I also let my dogs choose their position on the start line. When the leash comes off and they are in the right place, I jut say “stay”. They settle into a sit, stand or down – then I lead out. That has been effective and easy to maintain, plus it tells me about the arousal level. For example: if I get a sit as the choice from CB, he is pretty chill. If I get a stand from CB, he is VERY excited. Good info!
Let me know what you think!
Tracy
