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Hi!
>Sometimes it’s easier to get the dog to follow directions than it is humans LOL. All I asked them to do was to stand on the blue dot I placed. >
It was brilliant of you to bring a dot for them to stand on. Smart!!! VERY clear instructions… but humans are challenging LOL!!!
Run 1 – ah, this is definitely hitting the challenge right on the head! It was HARD! He did well with the hand touches, so you can keep those in for sure!
Once you got him going though, he did great, even running past the leash runner.
The person in the 2nd video was correct that he needs to see more distractions…. But not quite yet. Humans are challenging LOL!!!! Poor Coal, he was amazing, she walked over his tail! I think he was happy to release off the start line to get away from the distractions LOL!
He ended up off course at 1:28, but that was a handler blooper (not enough connection and you were right near the off course jump) – keep going so he doesn’t get distracted. Much better at 2:43!! Super clear connection there.
He did a ‘peace out’ and took off at 1:58 when the leash runner approached him very forwardly. I mean, it as weird LOL! Then he felt she was toooooo much – big shake it off, having trouble sitting, etc. If you see him do that, you can ask her to stand on the blue dot 🙂
>Keep going like this or back it up a bit – make it easier?>
I think going with your plan in video 1 was spot on – definitely challenging but not toooooo challenging. The additions from the helper in video 2 were too much, so you can blame me if you tell people not to get as close to him LOL! So definitely keep gong with the video 1 plan – he made great progress!
Nice work here! Keep me posted!
Tracy
Hi! Thank you for the update!
I think the cold weather might be putting them on edge if they are having issues… not enough of an outlet for their energy! Fingers crossed for warmer weather ahead.
>.one of them was tunnel threadles – she nailed the one to her left but really struggled with the one to her right>
That was probably the harder side for her. I am curious to see how she does after sleeping on it -the mechanics might solidify in sleep, as crazy as it sounds LOL!
>We are now splitting a private lesson with another young dog with Lo every other week, mostly I wanted to see if she could “work” in a new/busy location. Went to the first one a week ago. She was freaking incredible!!!>
YAY! This is so cool! I am not surprised though, she is such a fun dog and you are doing a great job with her 🙂
Keep me posted! Stay warm!
Tracy
Hi!
>he is stinky cute.>
Totally agree – he is SO CUTE!!!!
This session went really well. Great job with the verbals! Yay! He is still learning to love the MM – on the threadle reps, he was looking at you til he heard the beep of the MM. That will change soon, and he will soon automatically look at the MM – so you can delay the click til he looks at it.
The serps all looked really good!
>I think my legs should be farther apart and I need to stand up .>
You were strong here! We get you moving with this game next week, so you won’t have to worry about foot position 🙂
Great job!
Tracy
Hi!
>he is stinky cute.>
Totally agree – he is SO CUTE!!!!
This session went really well. Great job with the verbals! Yay! He is still learning to love the MM – on the threadle reps, he was looking at you til he heard the beep of the MM. That will change soon, and he will soon automatically look at the MM – so you can delay the click til he looks at it.
The serps all looked really good!
>I think my legs should be farther apart and I need to stand up .>
You were strong here! We get you moving with this game next week, so you won’t have to worry about foot position 🙂
Great job!
Tracy
Hi!
The head turns were at the beginning here and he did great! My only suggestion is to remember to line him up facing forward each time for a clean start to the rep. He is bending really well!
The 360s on the barrel are harder! The key will be t move slowly forward (especially when he is turning to his right) and to let him see you look behind you at the other side of the barrel. You can also throw the reward back behind you so he gets used to looking at where he is going rather than at you and the toy 🙂
>When I first pick up a toy he is nutsy. I have worked on dead toy etc but when I first pick up a toy he has zero self control>
He definitely love the toy! 3 ideas for you:
Incorporate food into the sessions with the toy. You can use food 2 ways: to get him to sit, and as a reset cookie if something has gone wrong. There were a few bobbles here and he didn’t finish the wrap if you presented the toy too early, so he got frustrated and was jumping at the toy. To avoid the frustration, you can use reset cookies to start the next rep after an error. That will help him settle down with the toy.
Also, you can incorporate holding the toy into you stealth self-control goes 🙂 You can have a toy in your hand and reward simple things like cookie recalls using food, so he gets used to seeing it but not jumping at it.
You can also add a ’toy-in-hand’ marker for when he can grab for it. I use ‘bite’ for that. That really helped my young dogs, because they learned to completely ignore the toy til they heard the magic word (bite!) and then they could play. It was hard to remember to use it consistently but it really helped get rid of jumping up at the toy.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Hi! She looks so good here!! She did the blind really well and had great collection, then drove ahead beautifully. Super!!! It looks like she was anticipating the blind a bit – starting to change sides before you cued it. She probably knew what was coming LOL! So be sure to mix in some reps where it is just a straight recall, no side change, so doesn’t anticipate.
My only suggestion is to clear the floor of jumps when you do this – we don’t want her early training around jumps to be about ignoring them 🙂 It is a pain to move them, but it is worth it so she doesn’t think she should pass them to chase you.
Great job here!
Tracy
Hi! The tunnel skills are going well! I think you can try fading the hand flip away and see if he will flip himself away: meet him at the tunnel exit and walk forward very slowly, and use the verbal and the arm – and see if he turns himself away with you needing to flip him away.
He needs more direction in the in-between moments at the beginning 🙂 You can help him out so he can do things other than face bite you or bite your arm!
It looks like you released him from a station at the beginning: perfect! Then you can do a rep, reward… then back to the station. Then you can add in more praise and ‘ready’ words while he is on the station.When you praise or ask if he is ready in the in-between moments, he doesn’t know quite what to do with himself so you get some overarousal behavior. So helping him self-moderate by going to a station is great, especially at the beginning of a session.
I also think you should use a toy here, along with the food. I know, you’re probably like WTH MORE AROUSAL?? Haha! But the toy as reward for the tunnel threadle can give him something to do with his energy. Then trade for a treat, send to the station, another treat. So think of the toy as an outlet for the extra energy and a way to guide him towards knowing what to do with himself 🙂
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Hi!
The Minny Pinny looks good! He is slipping a bit on the mats – do you have snow on the ground outside? It will be better footwork if he can do this on grass (or maybe bring it to OTR for the turf?)Adding the verbals went great! One suggestion: as he is going around the setup and you are saying the verbal, have him finish the left turn to end up between you and the wings (he will end up perpendicular to the center bump.) That way the final left or right verbal is associated with the turn on the last bump too.
I think you were moving away to brace yourself for impact when you were delivering the toy. That is admirable LOL!! Since he is a big dude and comes in hard for the toy, you can present it across your body with the hand that sent him around the wings to draw him through the final turn… but then let go so he grabs it and so he can keep going (without wrenching your shoulders or his neck). Then you can ask hi to bring it back to tug with it (or trade for a second toy).
The stays looked good! He did a great job holding the stay even in the an arousal state that certainly seemed higher!!!
At the beginning, it definitely looked harder for him to line up with the toy present! Slightly slower response, and his position was more angled (to watch the toy, perhaps :)) You can use food to help with that for a couple of reps, then we can fade the food again so it is delivered sometimes but not part of the cue.
He was looking at the toy really well when you put it down – you can release when he looks at it. Since we don’t want to pair the release with the toy hitting the ground, you can add in some praise to bridge that time – if he looks at it then looks back at you, wait til he looks back at it. He might also really like having a verbal cue to look at it. We can easily add that using that ‘fold it in’ game on the cone – add a verbal cue (sometime like “focus”) just before you indicate he should look at it. He is a verbal dog, I bet he learns it super fast.
Great job here!
Tracy
Good morning!
><<And pressure is not necessarily a bad thing 🙂 but we need to be careful to not let it tip over into overarousal/negative stress feelings.>> I am getting the sense that you feel this tipped a bit into the negative feelings category. I admit to being worried about that too. I am seeing how it that possibly happened due to the failures. In this case, where do you think the threshold of too many variables to be keep him mentally “safe” was breeched?>
Negative feelings can be cumulative (unless there is a traumatic event). We often don’t see that it has tipped over into stress until it accumulates over a session or two or three. Without electrodes and blood tests, we can fully say how he was feeling about it. But we can observe expression of behavior. Sometimes slowing down/changing gait can be the tip-over? But sometimes that is working through challenges.
So to protect the dogs, I live by that 2 failure rule. And I have gotten really really good about politely advocating for the dog in the session if asked to do something that might cause more than the 2 errors (or something that will 100% produce errors). Sometimes we don’t know that there are too many variables or there might be something the dog sees that we do not. But the expression of behavior (2 failures!) will tell us so we can dial it back.
I also think that fading props is better than removing props – what I mean by that is if a prop goes in (jump bump, weave wire, reward target, MM, etc) then it needs to be moved out slowly and not just taken away. Splitting things into small pieces is good for shaping behavior and for changing variables too!
A lot of this is not what we think of as ‘dog training’ in the traditional sense – that is generally falling into the construct of operant conditioning. But nothing in the brain happens in a vacuum, so operant conditioning cannot be separated out from all of the other processes. It is really cool stuff!
>Totally agree about how expensive weaves are. I thought limiting to 6 max would help but maybe still too many – I am sure fatigue was a big variable here.>
Something that is hard about seminars that focus on an obstacle skill – 6 total reps then a break is great! But we tend to do far more than that, then the dogs get fatigued as we are trying to add challenge. Something I learned from being a student at flyball seminars: the box turn training is very physically and mentally expensive… so each turn has approximately 5 total reps of it. Then an hour or so later, maybe another 5 reps. I’ve been applying that to agility training and it has made a big difference!
And when I need to train things like ignoring crowds, etc – I train the concept on less expensive behaviors (like cookie recalls) because that transfers very easily to the harder behaviors.
>I love how you find the nicest ways to say “that was a really bad choice, I feel bad for your dog now”. >
Ha! Not at all! I don’t feel badly for the dogs, we are just trying to figure out what they are saying. I am just trying to translate what might be happening 🙂
>II am not sure why I can’t take my day job attitude and apply it here! LOL!
It is hard! And then I feel a bit guilty about speaking up. So many emotions in the human brain. We are not of the generation where it was ok to question instructors.
>I was certainly surprised when she took the MM away. Now I have big regrets on how I handled this. I will do better next time. Plus, 99.99% of the time if he misses the weaves he still gets cookies and we do reset tricks and cookies all the time, so he probably wondered what was happening here. >
No regrets needed! Just learning – he had opinions for sure!
>Now I feel terrible that I couldn’t step back enough to see this more clearly in the moment. I guess I can only hope that the hundreds of previous experiences of always having positive association even through failures will be enough to overcome this experience.>
Don’t feel terrible! It was informative! And yes, all of the positives will keep this a positive too! There was no trauma 🙂 And yes, I have heard of agility seminar presenters suggesting traumatic things after an error, heavy duty punishments – that is where a single event can really make things negative.
>I thought about this part a lot!! I totally agree that they are not the same and yet certainly there must be a a relationship there.>
Yes – there is a relationship because nothing happens in a vacuum… but resilience and effort/moivation operate within 2 different physiological systems. Resilience operates within the HPA axis (cortisol, for example) and effort/motivation operates within the dopamine reward systems (and is related to movement). So we can still see a dog being really stressed and not resilient… but still making an effort to keep moving (cough cough border collies sometimes cough cough 😁)
> But do you think that increasing motivation via a reward (or expectation of a reward) can have an effect on the ability to recover from a stressor?>
Expectation of the reward is not actually what increases motivation – no dopamine spike when the reward is applied as expected (we do have studies with electrodes for this 😁) It is the unexpected that can increase (or decrease) motivation – better than expected reward? Dopamine spike! (Followed by dopamine going away, which is actually a bit painful and what actually builds the motivation – it is complex!) More motivation is likely. Less than expected? Dopamine drop out… not a good feeling, physiologically (like last night when Larry The Rental Whippet tried to steal ice cream from the counter, ended up in the sink – definitely NOT the expected outcome and he was horrified LOL!!🤣😂) I am guessing there was a dopamine drop out in that moment.
Delivering a toy or treat as expected can be good for rehearsal (of mechanics, for example) and can also make the whole thing feel good (classical conditioning). So does the good feeling help with resilience? I am sure there is a link between because it also has to do with arousal states, etc. That link is harder to know because it also involves genetics, environment, etc. And resilience can take a few days.
So back to Larry Whippet and the sink… he is pretty resilient because as soon as I rescued him from the sink (after photos of course) he was back to normal happy self very very quickly. It was a good bounce back from the unexpected.
>Maybe it’s more technically correct (??) to say what I was attempting to do was actually to desensitize to the environmental situation. As in, trying to get the amygdala less likely to hijack the system based on practice/exposure to a situation that might be hard but can still have victory. >
Yes, counterconditioning and desensitization are definitely a thing! And they live more in the classical conditioning world. They don’t need any type of operant wins to happen is the associations are in place (but can go sideways if the operant conditioning goes sideways).
>Thus, next time there is this type of pressure present, the subject is not as likely to be stressed. What do you think of this a it relates to this example? >
I think it depends on the scenario and the individual. Counterconditiong and desensitization is a lengthy process starting below threshold (we agility people are not so good about starting below threshold LOL!) Plus there is the processing element – it is possible that the learner develops avoidance of the situation rather than confidence. So proceeding slowly is always good, to help us see what is happening. It would be cool to have electrodes and other instruments to tell us what is happening in real time, but that is not realistic 🙂 so we look at cumulative expressions of behavior. I agree that it is REALLY fascinating!!!
Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>WHOA! I didn’t understand that was what was possible in UKI! So we step inside the ring with a helper and do our volume dial tricks & take the first jump and then run back to the helper (“let’s go!”) and get the toy and then take more jumps?>
Yes – the helper rule in UKI is fabulous!!! You can leave the toy with the helper (or the helper can enter the ring separately so she doesn’t know there is a helper) and the helper can assist with delivery. I have used a helper to convince my dogs to GO ON for those huge ending lines (rather than look back at my sorry self running miles behind them haha) – the helper entered the exit, the dogs didn’t know she was there… and when I cued the dogs to GO GO GO, she threw the toy for them as soon as they looked ahead. They were shocked, happily hahahaha
>We tried again today and she was really good about dropping the leash when it was unclipped.>
She was so funny with the bowls – she would eat the cookie, look up at you… then start heading for the next bowl LOL! “I know this game, mom!” Hahaha.
For both girls, you can mix in having them do this while you remain stationary (up and down near your feet) for places where you won’t have room to go back and forth.
She did great with dropping the leash! She almost re-grabbed it, but your body language basically said “that’s not what we are doing now” and she was fine with that 🙂 You can also add in tossing the leash away rather than putting it in a pocket, to prepare for any UKI or USDAA you might eventually do.
You might find that letting go of the leash is harder when she is more stimulated, so you might wait a few extra seconds for her to do it – but that is fine! It is a form of arousal regulation.
>BRILLIANT progression!!! THANK YOU!!!>
Well, we will see if Bazinga agrees if it is a good progression or not LOL!!
Have fun this weekend! Keep me posted!
Tracy
Good morning!
>>“Whos’ there?” will totally work! But that is a crazy-bark-at-the door-bark is that ok? Maybe I can transition it to Who’s ready? Once we get going!>
Yes, it is probably going to be a crazy bark at first, which will transform into a demand bark (because she will quickly figure out that she gets cookies LOL)
> maybe she needs some pick-me-up snacks & hydration! I’m going to think about what I can do since she’s on a prescription diet.>
You can bring a bit of her food and feed her a small meal to see if it helps. And you can also get her to drink a bit more than usual – I ‘load’ water by putting stuff in it to help them drink, even if it is dropping a kibble into it so they fish it out like bobbing for apples. It still gets a bit more drinking 🙂
>This made me think about what our routines are in the house. I have treats on the counter and the dogs report there for “treat-duty” whenever they come in from going potty and Frankie really goes there whenever she feels like she has performed something “treat-worthy” during the day. Maybe this is reinforcing that need to be right near the treats?!>
Treat duty! I love that! I think the context is different and also they are doing things away from the treats to earn them (and there are no treats present when they do that, right?) so I think treat duty is fine and can continue as is 🙂
>I’m going to shake that up a bit. My first thought is to make them move away from the treats and do a trick & then go back to give them their treat. Also maybe I need multiple places with treats in the house, so there is not 1 major location?>
Yes – you can specifically work on it as a ‘move away to do a thing’ game. And also yes, I think doing it in different rooms is a good thing to help it generalize. You can let them see you put it in a spot (reward station) and then move away to do something with them. This simulates entering the ring at a trial, theoretically.
>That takes some of the pressure I put on myself that I’m asking her to do something she doesn’t want to do. Frankie most certainly will only do what she wants to do. Heh.>
Yes, she is free to walk away! I don’t think we are being coercive because you are not dragging her around by the leash, and you are not showing her massive chunks of food in the ring to get her to do it. I feel like what we are trying to do is change her feeling in the ring from “ok fine” to “Heck yeah!!!!!”
>I tried this today to see what she did. I probably should unclip the leash before I put her down though. I think she gave me pretty good attention. What do you think?>
She has already improved immensely about leaving her food outside the ring and going through the gate!!!! Yay!
She seemed to give “This is different” vibes when you picked her up base on her facial expression but then the ring entry went well. Her focus was great as you stuck the leash in your pocket and the run went well too!
I wonder if unclipping the leash and shoving it in your pocket before you put her down will help speed the transition from putting her down to starting the run? I think that will need to be as fast as possible in the trial ring. You were not slow here, but the faster you can get her running in the ring, the better, perhaps – so she doesn’t start to think about other things while you are putting the leash away.
My only suggestion from the video is that you can stand up more in the “ready ready” section before entering the ring, so she can jump up and move towards you (if she wants to). Leaning over a to limits her movement, and keeping her moving a bit can be a good thing for keeping her in a higher arousal state.
Keep me posted on how everything goes this weekend! Great job here!
Tracy
Hi!
I am loving the transition of line up to collar grab at the start of the reps!
The rocking horses went best when you were closer to the barrel for the rotation – that was when she was able to commit (more forward motion helped commit her too!) The frisbee being fully visible (and sometimes witching from hand to hand, which draws her attention to your hands) made it harder so if there was a handling question, she went right to the friz 🙂 The two spots she had questions were at :12 and 1:27 – on both of those, you were further from the barrels – and without decel to support her moving forward, it was a bit of slamming on the brakes so she didn’t commit.Now, we totally want her to be able to commit from a little further away, so try adding 2 things:
decel before the rotation, and shifting connection from her eyes to the barrel as she passes you.Scrunching up the frisbee a little more and keeping it in the same hand can help too! You did a good job clarifying of the ‘bite’ marker, but she does get it sometimes on praise too, so making it a little less in front of her can help her ignore it for now.
The threadle slice game is going well too! She is coming in to the threadle slice really well! Stays are looking good too! Great job with all of the stay rewards – the hand moving into position can easily become the release, so definitely keep rewarding the stays.
Only one suggestion:
The reward target (or friz throws) for the threadle slices should be placed on the other side of the bump (same side she starts on), so after coming to the threadle hand, she goes over the bump to get her reward. That will help get the automatic in-then-out behavior for the threadles.>had x rays done because I’ve had some concerns about her rear end development. All good but she is still growing and will be for a while!>
I saw your FB post on it – I am glad she is all good! Yay! And I didn’t comment on the FB post because I started to type something snarky about how her growth plates were not closed and so many people out there were already running baby dogs on courses at this age…. but I stopped myself hahahahaha
Great job here!
TracyGood morning!
>We had a fun weekend last weekend where we went on something like 3 off leash walks (which also includes 1-2 hours in the car round trip for each one), so Checkie was a little brain dead and we mostly took a little break for brain cells to recover>
That sounds like a lovely balance for regular life 🙂 Fun!!!!
>also more attempts at pivoting on the perch, we got a few times where he moved a rear foot but mostly he wants to sit even with me kneeling, so I will keep playing with that.>
If you are getting sitting, you can use the ‘pivot-back-to front’ approach by tossing a treat to the side and early rewards delivered for the first moment he comes backto the perch in front of you. Fast treats being tossed or delivered then tossed will help him not want to sit (and if he sits, toss a treat to the side) because there is a response cost that makes sitting ‘expensive’ when the cheap and easy route to the reward is standing and pivoting 🙂
Barrels – super nice, especially your connection at the exit of the FC to set up the next send. Lovely! You can add in wrap verbals if you were not already using them, he is ready for them!
Threadle wraps: I think the main thing to get the mechanics easier here would be to get his eyes off your hands – even with the tossed treat, he is still tracking it from your hands 🙂 Adding a visual target like a bowl on the other side of the barrel will help get his eyes off of your hands. The bowl can start just on the other side of the barrel so he does a 180 on the turn away, then you can work the bowl more and more around the barrel til he is doing the complete circle.
The mechanics were smoother on the 2nd video here for sure, nice jbo with the low and slow hands on both sides! He is waitinf for the hand cue to tell him to turn away, so you can get that more automatic turn away with the bowl as the visual target. It is pretty easy to fade as soon as he turns his own head away 🙂The head turns are looking really good!!! I think latent learning has kicked in here – he seemed to have no questions on the right turns (first side in the video) – your hand cues were nice and quick and he nailed it. He had one question when you switched to the left side, so you slowed the cue down for a moment… then he had it. Yay!!! So now you are ready to go to the advanced level here, which brings the barrel back in and turns this into the backside circle wraps.
Backside slices – This is going well too! The arm position on these is tricky – small dog connection is tricky! We want to be connected but if we are too connected, it looks like a threadle slice cue (where the shoulder comes all the way back and rotates our upper body towards the dog). For the backside slices, your arm can be pointing more to his nose along the line we want him to travel, and not as far back behind you – in the cases where he ended up on the front, it was a bit too far back and that opens your shoulder up like a threadle slice cue. One way that I think of that arm position is that a connection arm stays in line with my torso, and a threadle slice arm goes back to behind my bum 🙂
>And then we did the threadle slice vs serp where I VERY confidently said my threadle WRAP cue LOL LOL. I mean he did it anyway based on my body language, but, sigh. He is so good.>
They learn to save us LOL! And I do a lot of planning of my verbals before each rep (and even then, sometimes the wrong things come out LOL!)
On the video, he did well with the compare and contrast of the threadle versus serp! I think he was a bit surprised on the first threadle rep, possibly assuming it was automatically going to be the front side of the jump again, but then after that he was like “got it! I need to watch the cues!” and he was perfect 🙂 Do you have wings, or another barrel? You can add wings to the jump now, which adds a bit of complexity to the game.
>>Sometimes when it’s so clearly MY mechanics that are the problem (ok so like 99.9% of the time), I struggle to stop because I want to keep working on it, naughty brain. >
Will one of your other dogs step up to help out, so Checkie can get a break? My adult dogs are always happy to judge my mechanics and offer feedback 🙂 That way you can keep going and then come back later to add the pupster in 🙂
> (Also, to be completely honest, having the motivation to do ANY THING after you know what happened on Monday has been a little tough for me, so trying to focus on happy puppy and happy human with the training stuff)>
This is entirely relatable. It has been a brutal week and it is only Thursday morning. I have been watching every episode of ER in order this week instead of watching the news or anything. And cleaning the house! I love a clean house (but hate to clean hahahaha). My plan is to hit the lottery and buy an island somewhere and move all of us to it. That seems like the best option right now, hopefully you, your mom, and your crew are available to join us!
Great job here!
TracyGood morning!
Good for you for seeing the shift in value and working on it here! It was hard for me to see when he was looking straight for the right turns at the beginning, but those seemed easy for him. It was much easier to see on the left turn side 🙂 and those seemed harder – he had to take a moment to process the cue before releasing.
Since we were talking about all the darned words to remember… You probably don’t need to say ‘dish’ here – I mean, you can, but the context cues him going to the dish and the marker is coming after he is heading to it anyway 🙂 About the context: I can’t think of a time where we would cue a behavior, and the correct response takes him directly to a place reward – and we would NOT want him to take the reward. That seems rude LOL! In this case, the correct response takes him to the bowl with the cookie in it, so I don’t think we would want him to stop or run over it, if you don’t say ‘dish’. That can cause some uncertainty. Let me know if that makes sense!
>I also did the barrels farther apart but screwed up my video on that. It went well. I was able to stay in the center, he had fun and I think I only gave the wrong directional once. I did keep my toy in my pocket and that was fine. Got the Tug cue out on time once. baby steps…>
The best sessions happen when we forget to turn on the camera hahaha I am glad it went well!! And you can use your time during tugging to plan the verbals for the next rep. I am glad the toy in the pocket was easy – the tug cue is probably an important one to add in, so he doesn’t grab it before you are ready (ouch!) and because the toy is not automatically on his line (no context cues to help us out).
Great job here!
Tracy
