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Hi!
>Here is an interesting video…it looks a bit cringe-worthy partly because I’ve cut together lots of failures and not as many of the successes, but I think it’s an interesting study in what can happen when you try doing weaves under pressure, and then NOT pressure>
Totally agree – very useful video!! And I do look at pressure a LOT because there is so much pressure in dog sports. And pressure is not necessarily a bad thing 🙂 but we need to be careful to not let it tip over into overarousal/negative stress feelings.
One of the main things to think about here are variables:
– familiar location (blue mats) versus unfamiliar location (black mats – TCOTC?)
– proximity of the crowd
– proximity of the instructor
– how to change variables
– fatigue 🙂First up, fatigue – the thing with weaves are that they are the most physically and mentally “expensive” obstacle, so you will get fatigue. And that means the later reps won’t be as good, even if the challenges are theoretically easier (they are not easier at that point because of fatigue).
It is like the difference between me reading something at 6am versus 6pm – 6am is a fresh brain and body, 6pm is a fatigued brain and body. So the 6am work is far, far better 🙂
>doing it much farther away in the first round) you can see that he will weave, albeit slowly, that close into the crowd with the Manners Minder, which I intentionally used vs. a thrown reward for the first tries. >
I think the MM was a good choice as the focal point is helpful for him, and it has good value too!
>And then what happens without the MM present as a focal point or positive distraction. >
That was human error 🙂 in the form of making a variable change that was MASSIVE without reducing any of the other variables – and doing it when he was not fully comfortable with the behavior (slow weaves) and doing it later in the session (fatigue risk). There were 3 failures right off the bat, and confusion.
So what to do differently?
– don’t make a variable change that late in the session with a behavior that is as expensive as that. End the session.
– when making a variable change, make it small and make something else easier. For example, if fading the MM is the goal, removing it entirely is too big of a leap (as he was very good about telling you). Instead, move it further away, or visually block it behind a wing, or use a bowl there instead of it. And since that is a big change, something else can get easier. That can be something like moving the weaves further back from the pressure, or opening them up so they are easier.
– Live by the 2 failure rule. And if an instructor recommends something that you are sure will get failure, ask for an easier version of it so failure is not guaranteed. Or, if you get to 2 failures (total, in the skill, not necessarily in a row), dial it back to stop the failure. And be sure to reward effort, reset with rewards, etc. You can even reward when his misses weaves if he is driving into a really hard environment.One of the reasons to be careful about going past 2 failures is the associative learning element in play and how it changes the conditioned emotional response. If he has a super high rate of reinforcement associated with the weaves, for example, even if they are not 100% correct, then he is going to be like HECK YEAH I LOVE MY WEAVIES! But if the rate drops because the challenges are hard and he fails a lot… the conditioned response is more like “oh, those things again plus all those people, ugh”.
And associative learning is incredibly powerful so protect that response at all costs! That can be hard in a class or seminar setting but totally useful for the dog 🙂 I have 2 approaches I use with instructors when working my own dogs:
– “that’s good for now, I will let him sleep on it, can we end on a couple of easy ones?”
– “that’s too much failure, let’s dial it back”>And THEN what happens when not weaving into the crowd but still having to turn around a wing facing the crowd then weave. >
Yes, big variables and also fatigue. Lots of weave reps there with the crowd present. You can train the weave skills without actually having him weave 🙂 by working on just the pressure elements then adding the weaves in eventually when he is powering through the other elements (like wrapping a wing to turn away from the pressure of people there)
And bear in mind that even though the sessions were spread out, there was no time between sessions for the actual learning to get encoded. The dogs need to sleep to be able to do that: sleep-dependent plasticity! So it is not likely you will see learning in that day, which is even more reason to be super careful to protect the associative learning element.
>And finally, the very next day, the stark difference when weaving a full set of weaves with no pressure.>
Very different set of variables, big relief of pressure and in a familiar environment, and probably no fatigue 🙂
>Again, this probably looks like a LOT of pressure because of how it’s cut but I was intentionally trying to build a little resilience while monitoring his attitude. >
I think resilience and effort/motivation to keep trying get used interchangeably and they are not the same: One thing about resilience is that it is physiological, built with physiological bounce back from the unexpected. That isn’t really reward-based, it is more about stimulating the physiology and then giving it time to bounce back to baseline (or helping it bounce back with decompression, etc). It is not something you will see, necessarily, in terms of success with behaviors or attitude.
Effort/motivation to keep trying is more of the dog’s response saying “ok that was not correct, let me try it again” – and that is built with very limited failures (one here or there) but more importantly – with surprise elements of reinforcement, reset motivators, and also with working in high arousal. That is where we really see the dogs happy to keep trying! Plus, as soon as there is one failure on the board, I am working to figure out how to get success. It might be as simple as a motivator to reset and try again, so the dog can process the challenge without a change of arousal state or emotional state. I know folks who think that we are rewarding an error but we are not LOL! And the dogs agree – success on the skill goes way up when reset motivators are involved, and when rewarding for effort on the skill is involved. All of that lives outside of operant conditioning – we have a series of webinars being planned on BrainCampFlix with some controversial subjects about this 🙂 but I digress 🙂
This is fun to discuss! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Hi!
>Oh, no, I was only talking about a moving heel for obedience! Hence why I wanted to use separate cues there because I want them to be very clear to Blast what I am asking him to do.>
Ok perfect 🙂
>he hasn’t really been picky about treats. He’s an “eat now, ask questions later” kind of dog, so it had never really dawned on me that he would work harder for different treats. >
I admit to being surprised that, given his breed, he was picky about the Charlee Bears – but he is young and maybe his teeth are still not 100% comfortable and the crunch of that treat was not a great feel? But also, cheese is highly delicious and can definitely motivate him to move more. You can also use more toy play when using lower value treats (tugging after each treat or two) because that can pump up the value of the treat through association with the tugging.
The parallel path session looked great!
>Now, through the power of cheese, I have much better connection and a quick moving dog. >
Behold the power of cheese! 😂🤩
You can also use a toy for this – that can give you an opportunity to get the retrieve built in. So it would be a cookie toss start so he is on the parallel path as you start moving, then the thrown toy as a reward.
He is finding the line to the jump really well so now the timing of the marker and throw (toy or treat) can be sooner: mark and throw as he is locking onto the jump but before he gets to it, so the reward is out ahead before he arrives to it. When he was getting to it and the reward was not out in front of him yet, he was starting to look at you (nothing else to look at :)) . So the earlier timing will keep him looking ahead.
>Should I be aiming for the cheese to land on his line or on mine so that he has to move away from me to take the jump as we turn around and set up for the next rep?>
It should be out on his line, so he stays out on the parallel path (your line and motion cues extension so the reward placement matches that).
Rear cross:
>We revisited this exercise with our new cheese friend.>
Ha! You are cracking me up! Now I want to partake in cheese friends!
You and Blast are making this game look easier than it actually is! Well done! You are getting to the correct side every time and at the right time, so he is reading the RC info every time. Yay! Since it is going really well in both directions, you can shelve it until we build it into a real rear cross when he is a bit older. He has the concept so that should be easy. You can revisit it here and there – the only thing you can add is using a toy as the reward after he gets the RC. That is great to keep practicing alternating between food and toys, as well as to get him to grab the treat and drive to you even faster.
Great job here!!!
Tracy
Hi!
about the rear crosses:
>I’ve been working really hard to try use these more in general so I can become more comfortable executing them because I know I need them with her. They break MY brain though.>
You might find them easier if you stay closer to the line before them – that way you can still go relatively fast, but you don’t get too far ahead. And ask your instructor to make you do them in class LOL!!
T
Hi!
>Love the “Wheee! Tunnel” picture of Nacho by the way.>
Thanks, I figured that photo was the epitome of adolescence LOL
The first video looked great! She was very engaged, finding lines beautifully!
>Layered the jump nicely out of the tunnel and then I forgot to cue the next jump so she came inside it and got her cheese. >
That was at about 1:53 – you said YAY and your arm was up high then you dropped it down, so she came off the line. If she passes a jump, no big deal, but try not to top and reward paired with not taking the jump – just keep going and get on a line and reward that. I mean, if things come to a catastrophic halt then yes! Reward 🙂 But if you can keep going, try to get back on a line or over a jump and reward that, to really keep pumping up the value of the lines.
>I was really excited that she did her jump wrap to the tunnel even though Dawn happened to be walking right by her in the other direction. (that wasn’t quite planned but it worked out well)>
I loved that too! Having the person walk by was AWESOME and she was a pro! Yay!! That is exactly what she needs for trial prep, so keep getting people to walk around in the ring 🙂
Sounds like she did well in the in-between moment too:
>She flicked her head a bunch after each treat in the bowl closer to the ring, but then looked back at me and kept the game going. >
This is normal and fine. Ruby is pretty exciting (and do I remember correctly that Joni is a loud handler?) All good for Lift to experience!
.
>She did not go back to chill in the car (it was sub-zero!) like she normally does between turns>This is good too – she is learning to keep working even if she is not in her usual routine, or if she gets a little tired.
The 2nd run looked strong too! Yay for Joni’s throw! That backside was hard and the reward was perfect.
And it looks like here were people outside watching and the judge (instructor :)) right there too! Lift seemed pretty professional too (had to see what was going on at the other side of the ring – tire training?
Can you make the start of one of your runs in class into a short remote reinforcement blast? A short, simple sequence for now to start, th run back, get the reward, and do the rest of your turn as normal with treats out there?
>She expended a lot of brain cells trying to focus and was mostly successful, but they did spill out her ears when she tried to lunge at a person who ran by suddenly.>
Was that later in the day? It is also possible the person really surprised her. So that is a good ‘slice’ to add to the games like super bowls: surprise, someone takes off and runs past her.
>In the last week, I’ve done more work with power bowls/super bowls at home & Fusion and a bit of novel/neutral stuff with Lift at Fusion.>
Yay! The super bowls really helps us get up close and personal to the distractions 🙂
>Its almost like the novel item sticks out like a sore thumb when I’m in a bigger and more open space.>
I agree! Maybe it is because I a crowded busy space, the brain has too much to process so stops trying to sort it out. But in a quiet place? Something new is VERY salient.
>I’ve also been using the power/super bowls with Kaladin to help change his anxious FOMO feelings when Dean leaves the house. Thanks to the Pandemic, he’s never been completely cool about people leaving and usually I’ve left him with a kong in his crate or a treat scattter. I thought I’d see what the pattern games can do and plan to segue into having him do tricks for treats after a bit.>
Interesting! Keep me posted on how he does – I know people using this in the behavior world, and I am sure they would be interested in hearing how Kal does with it!
Your upcoming plans sound good!
>There is an ASCA trial at Fusion this weekend which would be a low-key trial environment to practice ARE stuff>
ASCA has very easy jumping courses and good FEO opportunities… so maybe next time one rolls around you can enter! I have entered ASCA for the FEO and it was fun!
Nice work here! Keep me posted!
Tracy
Thank for resetting them! They were pretty typical young dog runs – his brain has so much to process in that environment, that the hard stuff got even harder. 12 weaves is definitely hard! And getting o the a-frame in the standard run was hard too… the judge was standing *right there* and he couldn’t quite process that AND get on the a-frame. I like that he decided to go around it rather than splat himself on it!!
That will all get easier as he gets more comfy in the environment. I think regular jumps, tunnels, and the DW are his favorites 🙂 so you can do lots of those! Is there anything that he likes that you can bring in as a toy in the FEO runs, like an empty lotus ball on a line so you can swing it around for him to chase? That can help get the weaves going too!
>Our classes started back up last night. We worked through some pressure at the weaves & he was able to do six successfully. I will get that video put together & post it.>
Perfect! Try to get classmates to create as much of a trial environment as possible. And if you get several runs in the class, try to do one simple one without food in your hands or pocket, so he gets used to that too.
Keep me posted!
Tracy
Hi! I agree, she probably doesn’t understand ‘no’ but more importantly, doesn’t know what to do with her mouth when she is excited.
So rather than focus on ‘no’, let’s focus on giving her other things to do! I redirect all of my mouthy young dogs to put something in their mouths when greeting me. My young whippet was VERY mouthy so now he is GREAT about putting something in his mouth to greet me – anything that is NOT my flesh is good 🙂 It can be a toy, or a ball, or a shoe, or today it was an empty plastic Dr. Diet Pepper bottle LOL!!
I got this behavior by being ready with a toy – when I knew he was going to be excited, I always had a toy ready and tossed it away for him. If he had it is his mouth, I would calmly engage with him. If he dropped it and got too excited, I would send him back to it if he wanted my attention.
Mouthing is an attention-seeking behavior, so yelling “no!” is giving the dog attention without teaching them a better way to get attention. Redirecting to an object that is appropriate is a great way to teach her acceptable things to do with her mouth 🙂
And sometimes puppies get very excited (over-tired too!) and can’t be redirected – in those moments it is ok to give her a break in her crate or pen, with a chew bone, to settle down.Keep me posted on how she does!
TracyHi!
>Not sure why I failed to mark with search half of the time – bad mom moment.>No worries, you were working on the ‘look look’ verbal and he understood the context. The session went super well!!!And yes, he likes the wraps – it is movement and working, both of which he really likes 🙂 You were able to change his start position a bit and that was no trouble at all. So now, two things to add:
– while you are still stationary and he is in the spot where you left off on each side (behind the barrel) – mix up whether you cue the look look or you cue a regular wing wrap (by using regular wrap cues and stepping to the other side). That is a good contrast game for him!And of course, he is ready for you to add motion 🙂 Just a bit of walking to start and see if he can still read the cues (I am sure he will do a great job!)
Nice work here!
TracyHi!
Are you saying “park it” for his station? I love it! And he is doing well with staying on it!For the threadle slices, I think the main suggestion here is to get fully into position, be stationary for a second or two… then release.
If you are moving backwards while releasing, he won’t really know what you want consistently as the presents motion to the front of the bar. This is what happened at :37, 1:09, 1:15 for example: you were stepping backwards into position, said flick as you were moving and hd the hand out – but the physical cue was not in place so he took the front side – handler error! Rather than mark it as wrong (try not to say oops or any marker unless you would wager $1000 that your cue was perfect LOL), reset with a cookie. If he gets it wrong twice? Stop the session and watch the video to see what was causing it.
Compare to the rep at 1:28 – that was a lot better because you were stationary for longer before the release. Try not to release and move your hand at the same time, because the hand movement will become the release (this was happening a bit towards the end).
Also, backing up over the bar draws his eyes over the bar. When you changed sides, walking into position like at 1:59 and the reps after it on the other side draws his eye to the threadle line and he was much more successful. There were a couple of errors on that side – partially because he might not be ready for the station to be centered in position 2 yet, and partially because he can see almost all of you between the uprights – you can have at least half of your visible outside the threadle upright so it is a clearer picture. And standing still so he can process the cue before the release will really help him see where to be.
>And I don’t love his jumping up to tag my hand getting built in here – I understand it was just a starting point to get the dog to come behind the jump before going back to the reward. How would you suggest moving in that direction?>
That will take care of itself as the MM grows in value, and when we add movement. I expect it will start to go away on its own in a session or two.
Threadle Wraps –
He did well here, this is a hard behavior. With this game also, don’t mark or make a big deal of an error – it can frustrate him, so you can just reset with a line up. Try moving him a bit forward so his shoulder is past the barrel as a starting point. He seemed to know to turn away, but then was not sure of where to go. So two options:
– As soon as he turns away, toss a treat to the other side of the barrel so he moves around it.
– or, we can give him a focal point! Put a reward plate (dish or target that you can drop food into) or the MM out on the other side of the barrel so as soon as he turns away, he can get the reward either bu you dropping food into the dish, or clicking the MM. That can help solidify the concept of turning away and wrapping the barrel as a chain 🙂Great job here!!
Tracy
Hi!
>We are moving to the barn once a week and it’s a distracting environmen>
Yes, new places like that can be really distracting! Have you taught her the pattern game from the resilience track? That will be incredibly useful for getting her comfortable and focused in new environments. The pattern game can help her ignore people! Toy play too!
For the tugging – good job keeping the toy low! For new places, I think a long toy like you used was great (she really loved chasing it). Do you have one that is flatter (easier to grab) and maybe has fur on it or fuzzy stuff? That is easier on her mouth for tugging and you can keep moving it away so she can chase it.
>Im way behind and plan on working through this but should I prioritize so I’m ready for max pup 2?>
The resilience and stealth self-control stuff are really important! For the other games – not much to prioritize, they are all helpful and build on each other. Even getting to do the baby level of everything once or twice would be good!
Nice work here 🙂
TracyHi! The backing up here looks great!!! She has really good balance and movement in the rear for such a young dog!!!!
I think her only question was about the release and the reward: the ‘yes’ and ‘ok’ didn’t drive her to the reward, so you can use a cookie-in-hand marker perhaps? Or, hand deliver the cookie to her in position at the destination (that seemed to be what she was looking for :))
Great job here! Keep adding distance!!
Tracy
Hi!
>I was struggling with this because I tend to use “heel” for finding heel position as well as the action of heeling in motion, and I told myself I would use something like “let’s go” as a cue for a moving heel for future dogs to try and make things more clear>
Asking for a moving heel at the end of an agility run might be hard, with all that adrenaline and with him likely to be ahead of you. A more general marker will be easier for you both!
. >But…dogs are a lot smarter than we give them credit for and the context can matter, >
100% yes! Context is so useful!
>but I was worried I would be in the obedience ring and say “let’s go” and my dog would shoot off to our set up for cookies lol.>
One thing with the let’s go is that they go with me, so if I don’t go anywhere, they won’t either… they will think it is weird and they will judge me, but they won’t run off to grad stuff 🙂 Plus, they know the context difference between agility and obedience so I don’t think it will be a problem (but also different markers is a good thing 🙂 )
>One thing I learned today is that Charlee Bears are garbage treats. To me, they’re great: cheap, easily available, a good weight to throw, and they show up on my grass and mulch yard. Blast thinks they’re uninteresting and make training boring as all hell. >
Ha! Yes, motivator levels are decided by the recipient LOL!!!! My dogs also think Charlee Bears are stoooooopid. LOL!
Rocking horses: I think this was a Charlee Bear session – he was doing it, but not very excited about the paycheck 🤣😂
I see the difference on your left side sends versus the right side sends – mainly it is a connection question. On the right side sends starting at :45, your arm was already pointing ahead to the next wing as he exited the previous one. This blocks his view of connection and turns your shoulders away from the next wing, so he came into you. The left sends were all the ones you started him on in this session, so the connection was clearer. Ideally, as he exits the wing, your arm is pointing back to his nose and you are looking at him, then as he gets closer to you, you can step forward and send with your arm. That will help him see the connection clearly.He did well turning away with the threadle wraps! Remember to keep your feet facing straight (parallel to the barrel rather than facing the barrel) – your feet facing straight will make it easy to add motion ). It will feel weird to be stationary with your feet facing forward, but it will get him focused on the hands so when your feet do move forward, he won’t need them to be part of the cue.
The Get Out – was this a session with the better treats? He was definitely happier!
>I liked the effort and enthusiasm to reward>
He was definitely enthusiastic!!! Yay!
> and keep the chain going.
You don’t need to chain or loop this one by starting the next rep as soon as he eats the previous cookie. You can get out a tug toy and tug back to the starting spot, to set up the next rep.
>I’m not sure how accurate I should be asking him to be, >
He doesn’t have to fully hit the hat, but we do want him to lead change away. So setting up each rep individually without you running yet will help a lot. He can start behind you in a stay or with a tossed cookie, so he can see you cue him from ahead. That, plus not moving as fast, will help direct his focus to the prop and get the lead change. I think he was mainly focused on your running here so he got it when you moved closer to it. We can add more distance and get that lead change by putting you ahead and also having you walk for now 🙂
The tight turns session looked great! He had lovely head turns (a little better to his left in this sessions, but the right was also good!) Yay! He smacked the upright with his booty on the first rep and then he fixed it and did not touch it again – SUPER! That is part of why we do this game: to get the pups to NOT touch the upright as they are bending around it. This is a good one to revisit here and there as his body continues to develop into adulthood and as he begins to do more jumping stuff.
Great job!
TracyHi!
One thing to consider with the waits is that you will want to use a station or something all the time for now, to establish a wait behavior before any and all sequences, so she doesn’t get too used to starting with you right next to her. A station can be very clarifying for her!T
Hi!
>Since I mainly use an iPad, I thought it would be better to start a new one for us.>
Yeah, at some point when a thread gets big enough, iPads and iPhones give errors messages. Weird!
>We had 2 days of trialing this past weekend. On Friday, I was pretty discouraged after our 1st 2 runs because he was so disconnected and running to check everything out. Then he came out on the 3rd and last run of the day & laid it out there.>
He might have needed a day to settle into the environment? Hard to know with young dogs, so maybe the next trial, enter him in only one class that runs in the afternoon, and make it a really simple FEO course, and see how it goes.
If he gets distracted in the ring, don’t stop your running – you can keep running and handling an invisible dog. At some point he will catch back up to you 🙂 It is more fun for him that way and will help him stay focused.
>Here’s his Novice FAST FEO run so you can see what he did or rather didn’t do.>
This one is listed as unavailable, can you reset it to unlisted?
>Here’s his Nov JWW FEO run later, as in MUCH later, that same day. i decided to bring him back down the line of jumps after the tunnel rather than heading to the weaves.>
I loved this run!! He was thinking hard and did a great job 🙂 It think it was a GREAT decision to not ask for weaves are the hardest, most complex obstacle and he was telling you in the other runs that they are too hard for now in the trial environment. If you get him comfortable in the environment, it will be easy to add the weaves back in 🙂
>Here’s his Nov Standard FEO run after that. I just altered out line off the teeter for this run & took him to the DW rather than on to the weaves.>
This one is also listed as private.
>If you would prefer to have all the runs in 1 video, please let me know!>
Posting them individually is great, and probably easier than editing them together.
When is your next trial? Have your classes or league started back up?
Great job here :)
TracyHi! Why were there 2 judges in the ring? Weird! Stalkers! LOL!
I think this also went well.
>I think working her start line on the last run of the weekend was asking a lot of her – although she did really do a good job.>
It looks like she got it right twice! Yay! And she was generally finding the lines really well – and the spots she missed jumps were legit questions from her 🙂
After the release, you just needed to more specifically cue jump 2. On both passes through there, you were pointing at it with an extended arm perpendicular to your shoulders – that blocked connection and turned your shoulders & feet away from the line, so she didn’t take it. Keeping your arm back and stepping to the jump will get her to take it on that type of line.
The jump after the tunnel that she missed at :46 was the same lead change away as on the previous run. It was also a moment of you running really fast without a lot of connection, which pulls her off the line. So prioritize connection over getting way ahead on course for now.
>by the time we got to #7 and I was asking for a wrap turn, it wasn’t going to happen.>
After that FC wrap, you can use exit line connection to tell her which side to be on, rather than running away with the toy in your hand. She really liked the chase 🙂 but didn’t know where to be in term of which side of you, so the turns were wide through there.
Overall, all of these runs went well! And we can see what helps her (clear connection and not running very fast) versus where she loses the line (running super fast without connection).
In the interest of keeping you connected and not getting too far ahead for now… you should plan some rear crosses 🙂 Not only are they a useful tool, but you won’t need to try to get way ahead and risk disconnecting.
Great job on these!
Tracy
Hi!
>Although it was missed in the video, I did have my friend hold her at the start line again. She was pulling away from my friend and went around all the jumps so I reset>
Was she eager to start, or uncomfortable being held, or both? It is OK to not have a holder – it will give you motivation to add the stay to the runs 🙂 You can bring stays in with very short stays and throwing rewards back in the NFC runs. You can also use a station at the start line in UKI NFC.
She did really well here too, found the lines really well! I think there was one jump missed at :44 – it looked like that jump needed a lead change away to get to it, so a ‘get out’ cue and more motion to it, even an opposite arm, will help. That is a place you can keep going rather than stop and give her the toy. We don’t want to punish her for missing it, but we don’t want to specifically reward it with the toy either 🙂
On this run and on the previous run, you had large chunks of the course that went beautifully – both of those sections had great connection and you were moving but not running really fast. Keep that in mind for future runs!
T
