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Good morning!
I am a big fan of the leash games, he did great! It looks like he is happy to work with the leash around – sticking his head in it looks like it is something he likes to do đ
Does he also tug on his leash on cue? That is something that might develop naturally and is certainly useful.The next steps are to sometimes shave the leash on as he moves to the jump or barrel games sometimes, just so it is a part of the picture and there are no surprises. And with dogs that love to work, I also add in putting the leash on as if it is the end⌠but then taking it off and going back to work. We donât want the leash to indicate that work is over đ
He also did really well with the forward focus! He only had one small question: should he look at your hand as well as the toy? You can see him looking back and forth a bit. I think part of that was because the hand was right there⌠it will be a non-issue when you are further away.
When you are close, though, you can move the toy off to the side so he turns his head a little away – that way he wonât also ask if he should include looking at your hand, it will be toy-only đ And same when you add a barrel or wing or jump (or tunnel :)) – it can be a bit off to the side so he definitely doesnât include your hand in the looking.
Between the feet was harder for him but he was getting it! Youâll get even more duration if the praise is not followed by a cookie, which was causing him to look back at you. The praise can be a quiet praise and if he continues to look at the object, release to it. But you might also find that he doesnât want to stare at it (many dogs prefer to acknowledge but donât do a prolong stare) and that is fine too of course đ
Onwards to adding obstacles to this, even if it is a cone or barrel to begin with. Great job!
Tracy
Hi!
No worries about the side of 2, it still gave you a chance to work out the timing of the sends. Your rotation was a bit too early at :09 so she had questions when you faced 2 more at :43 and even better at 1:36 – those looked really good and set up the rest of the line nicely! You broken connection a little at 1:48 so she had a question.
>But i couldnt get the turn to 7>
She did really well finding the line 3-4-5 at a distance. The turn to 7 s challenging: if your motion was going straight up the line, she continued straight up the line.
You added over-rotating like a front cross at 1:57 and after, and it did get the turn but then ends up leaving you facing the wrong direction. Plus, she doesnât really trust the rotation when you do tht – she looks at you but doesnât really do a FC which is what the rotation is telling her: she stays on her line but turns her head. It worked here but will mess up your front crossesYou can see what I mean at 1:58 and 2:08, where she looked at you but didnât actually come to you.
Something to try instead of the big rotation is calling her name and using 2 hands visibly to get to the turn to 6 – that way you donât have to turn your feet at all.
And if she adds an extra jump or goes wide: Donât stop – keep going. Get right back on track! That will help smooth things out and get more clear rounds because you are always adjusting in the moment.
After the tunnel: the middle section went well – really nice connection and motion! Your backside handling on 9 looked good
You wanted a rear cross on the last tunnel at 1:26 – she didnât see it before entering the tunnel so she turned to her left. You can run toward the center of the tunnel entry so she sees the rear cross tunnel pressure before entering the tunnel.
And she definitely thinks âTunnel!â is a go-forward cue: at 2:46 you didnât turn but said the tunnel cue, and she took the jump looking for a tunnel. Good girl!
>In synch was all over the place lack of training and skills so need to work up to this.>
You can break it down and run 4 or 5 obstacle sections for now, as she builds up to the bigger courses.
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Hi!
>Iâm glad you ask what I think and then donât get offended when I tell you. >
It is a collaborative process, after all đ
>It is interesting that you didnât get the negative vibes about âproofingâ from obedience; really interesting. >
I really never trained or competed in obedience, so the proofing vibes were not from there. But I am sure that I never got interested in it because the use of shock collars and prong collars dominated the training in my area, and I was never interested in that at all.
>Perhaps I had a purer agility experience because I started, for reals, in about 2005. With my obedience experience, I wasnât willing to take any local instruction and spent Terryâs first 3 or 4 years learning almost exclusively from on-line and seminars. >
That is a distinct possibility! I am sure many online presenters had a more successful and systematic program than the in-person stuff did.
>I had already known about. If you have a source of stretches you would like to point me to, Iâd be happy to look. >
I will gather some good resources! The stuff your massage therapist said is good but also is the limit to what most people know about getting more flexibility.
>Since you advise it, I will go out and try it at 16 but I am having trouble imagining how that will help. >
It will help because it makes getting the mechanics easier – and we want the mechanics of collection on the takeoff side of the jump. If we donât have it at 16â, we wonât have it at 20â. I personally get it at 8â with my large dogs then raise the bar. My puppy is 22â tall (or more, I stopped measuring) so it I critical I get mechanics before I ask for height.
>Wonât a lower bar reduce the all-important âbasculeâ of the jump? >
Controversial opinion: I am not concerned with the bascule đ for many reasons. First – they are not horses đ and the jumping efforts we are making for widely vary and agility dogs are all built wildly differently. So mechanics of preparing for takeoff are the most important thing, followed by mechanics of landing⌠and then the bascules fall into place easily.
>I know I am not keeping up with the neuroscience of the dog-training as you are but I would have thought this was simple physics (simple for physicists, not simple for me).>
Physics are always in play, of course, but each jumping effort (wrap, soft turn, slice, straight, etc) requires different mechanics to create the line. If we donât have the mechanics, then the trajectory will not be what we want.
>Part of my issue may be that I have taken literally tens of seminars and on-line classes, including over 25 from Agility U
. My understanding of jumping is a mish-mash of all of that. > That shows that dog agility jumping really has no single specific set of ways to do it đ Gazillions of approaches: no one is wrong, no one is right. If there was a right way to teach jumping that worked for everyone, then we would all be doing it and there would not be 8000 online jumping programs đ Kind of like 2o2o contacts – easy methods exist that work for the vast majority of dogs, so there are not going to be a zillion online classes đ
There are so many different jumping efforts and so many different dog structures⌠sorting out the needs of the individual is more important than systematizing a jumping method.What the neuroscience tells us is that when arousal states shift higher or into overarousal, the first thing that âgoes awayâ when the brain is being bombarded with stimuli is mechanics. So things like jumping form and weave entries and running contacts deteriorate because the brain cannot process the mechanics as well. But if we can isolate the mechanics and teach them/work them in a similar state? Then we tap into state-dependent memory and we donât lose mechanics when arousal states shifts or when there are more stimuli in the environment.
> My memory of Linda Mecklenburgâs and Silvia Trkmanâs jumping is that they quickly moved to full height in order to get the bascule and prevent ârunningâ over the jumps. >
The ârunning over jumpsâ concept falls into the same fallacy basket as âflyball dogs wonât be able to jump in agility because they jump flatâ. Just not true đ
And a lot of the initial stuff from what I remember was getting over the bar from a standstill (and landing with all the weight on the shoulders, ouch) so that is not the mechanics we need at all! The mechanics begin 15 feet away from the jump with the deceleration if there is a turn, or the power set of the hind if it is extension.
>Length of dogs:â¨â point of breastbone to point of rump: Enzo 24 Casper 22â¨â end of the ribs to the hip: Enzo 6.5 Casper 5.5>
For dogs that are approx the same height, that is an interesting difference! I donât look at AKC breed standards at all because, well⌠not helpful for sports đ It can also help explain why Casper doesnât turn as well as Enzo. In general, dogs that are longer can turn better. Shorter or square dogs donât turn as well naturally so need more emphasis on mechanics to set up the turn. It can all even out with work on mechanics but length of dog will tell us their natural ability. I have 3 young dogs similar in height but wildly different in length. The longest one turns like a dream, very little training needed, even though he is the youngest of the 3 and the least experience. The one in the middle who is tallest but also doesnât have as much length than the longer dog can turn but had to learn a lot about the mechanics to do it (especially to his non-dominant side). And the shortest one (in length)? Really struggles to naturally turn so we do a ton of mechanics. And my 3 small dogs are a similar study of long, medium, & short, with same results in terms of turning ability and mechanics. My guess is that Casper is like my middle length dogs who can accelerate on the flat and be super fast, and had to focus a lot on mechanics to make the collections happen before takeoff. Also notable is with the medium length dogs… letting them rip and NOT asking for the collection on soft turns produces very very fast course times! The medium length smaller dog has clocked 8yps when I let her rip and just tell her where to go. Looks wide! But sooo fast and wins if I get her around clean. So there will be spots with Casper that we don’t need to worry about how tight the turn is đ
>Iâm very glad you like discussing all this stuff, I have no one in my agility circle who wants to dive into the weeds. Most of my near-by friends (and students) are in it for the social aspects and just donât want their dogs to make them feel foolish.>
I mean, I too like the social stuff and prefer when my dogs donât make me feel foolish đ but getting into the weeds is super fun!!
On the video:
>He clearly processed the difference between throwing the frizz (very good) and a cookie (a little good) and made a change. Sad for him, it was a change in the wrong direction.>
I really liked this session – he started off with his usual approach and then after the feedback of the cookie (âthat was fine, not greatâ) I think it was fantastic that he kind of said âhmmmmm how to I get the frisbee??â Taking the 2nd jump was a nice experiment with good feedback: no reward at all. Noted! Then the next rep actually had some good collection before takeoff (âhow âbout this?â) and the last rep in that session had GREAT collection on the takeoff side (note the little stride he added in: decel to set up collection!) It is not as fluent as it will be but it was definitely on the right track (and very hard, he really had to devote some brain juice to it :))
The teeter session looked great! The next step is to maintain this in classes/trials, where there might be a history of early releases. You can dial back some of the arousal in class or at a trial because the environment provides the arousal in those locations.
Great job! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Good morning!
> My impression was that he really thought I was trying to trick him and that wait for his food bowl meant no food until he was released (even from me). Who knows what part of his expectations I didnât meet in the moment, heâs definitely his own little person.>
I love that he is his own person! Back in the day when I used to play Its Yer Choice game, we would see this response to the food – it was like it was almost an aversive and the dog’s would turn their heads away (and grimace!). I don’t play those games anymore đ and we can note his response to the Dirty Rotten Trick of offering kibble as a reward in a moment when the rules are all about the food bowl đđ¤Ł
>I do think he has a lot of reward prediction thoughts and reactions to things not following the pattern he expected them to. Thatâs been a super consistent trait since he first came to me.>
Yes, it is fun to watch different individuals and breeds with regards to this! Plus add in a still-developing brain, it is like having a science lab in your house LOL
The stay session went great!!! You got him into a stay without any mat needed and he was quite lovely! The between-the-feet lineup also provides a lot of clarity for him, from what I see here. And you can always bring a mat or something small (post-it note hahaha) back out if he struggles in a new environment or with harder challenges, or the Cato when introducing other concepts and you don’t want him to have to use a lot of bandwidth for the stay.
He was great about holding his stay when you added the barrel. We want to make the rhythm of the releases less predictable, though. Dogs are incredibly musical in terms of identifying rhythms and associating them with cues. You were leading out and releasing at the same rhythm each time, so he might begin associating the timing of the release with the release, rather than the actual release cues if you do them later than your usual rhythm. So this is one of the places where we actually want to be less predictable! Ways to do that are:
– Add in a moment of praise between stopping your motion in your lead out spot and the release cues (or reward marker). This can be different praise words, or even praising as you lead out. Or even counting the number of steps you take before you stop and release – when using the barrel, you were consistenly taking 2 footfalls to the side after the dismount, followed by 6 footfalls forward then the release. You had a 7 and a 5 in there, but 6 was the magic number for the most part and he might start to count: 1-2-3-4-5-6-release đ So, mix it up and adding the praise in will totally help too!
>We need to revisit his focus forward cue and clarify itâs not a release to obstacle. We didnât do a ton of that the first go âround and havenât revisited so he just needs to see that and then weâll be able to add in a focus forward cue that isnât a release to do the thing.>
Absolutely! Now is a good time for that. He was glancing at the barrel or toy a lot, which is good! If you want to make it a duration ‘stare’, you can work that concept separately from the stay so he doesn’t break the stay while learning it: hold his collar, throw the thing to look at out ahead, give the forward focus cue (hand point, verbal, or both). Then as he looks at the object, deliver long quiet praise, then cue him to get it. If he can stare at it while you are holding him, then it will be easier to get the behavior while he is also holding a stay.
You might need 6 hands to hold him and do this though – i have found that the dogs do really well (no confusion) if we hold them with the dog-side hand and throw the reward and point to it with the opposite hand. It is an easy transfer when they are in the stay and we want to use the dog-side hand to point.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Good morning!
>Not sure why but he is eating at the grass more. I donât think I dropped treats but maybe he thinks there is some.>
The grass eating can sometimes be a sign of GI upset, or a way of decompressing the arousal of training, or it can just be super tasty this time of year. Several of my dogs like to ‘graze’ during this time of year like a bunch of cows đ He didn’t do it when he knew he was working (when you were walking away with connection) so it is probably no big deal at all.
>. I will try again and as you suggested put down a bowl or the toy to help him. Should I be using any verbal for this yet?>
You can use a wrap verbal if you like, because he would be wrapping the exit. The bowl or toy should help continue building up the commitment.
On the video: He did great! I agree, he has the decel concept really solid!
Great stay rewards mixed in! He is a really strong tugger so trading for treats will be good for your hands đ
Going straight dog on left went well, I think it was pretty equal to the dog-on-right reps here! I didn’t see any major differences between the two sides, even if the dog-on-left side is his harder side. You were more connected for sure! You can have your dog-side hand pointed back to him more to show even more connection, and you can also release and take off running (with your arms pumping like a sprinter and looking back at him) – that will be both a lot of run and a bit more challenging because there is a lot more motion and excitement đ
You can also add more excitement and speed by sending him around a wing or through a tunnel before the jump! Then you can either run forward for the straight line, or send him away at a bigger distance so he sees you standing still at the jump as he begins moving towards you. He seems ready for the higher level challenge.
Great job here!!!
Tracy
Hello and welcome back to CAMP! Great to see you and the girls here!!
Looking at all of Lilyâs videos:
On the first video:
Very nice distance and layering when she is on your left!
>You can see she sends better when she is on my left than on the right.>
Yes, I totally see what you mean here and even more so when you added distance on the 3rd Lily video.
You tried a couple of different things to help her on that side (more acceleration, opposite arm, out verbals) all of which are great! But I think the main thing is that shifting away on that side is hard! So we can change the reward placement to build up the value and get her looking at the line in that direction.
Based on how she did on both sides here: when she is on the line in the layering, she generally stays on it and the rest of the handling is beautiful! So you can do lots of handling when she is on your left. And when she is on your right, do more value building for the line by throwing the reward out past the first layering jump when she is on her way to it. Ideally, a lotus ball or something yummy lands halfway between the 2 jumps on the other side of the tunnel. And sometimes you can throw the reward to the landing of the 2nd layering jump. But mainly, the rewards on that side should all be out past the jumps and not near you đ
When she did get out on the lines, the handling went great! Super nice job getting the backside at :54 and 1:05! And excellent blinds at 1:36 & 2:03 – when you trust the commitment on that side more, you can be even further ahead and start the blind when she lands from 4.
Her commitment is stronger when she is in your left, so you can be even more laterally away from the tunnel (closer to the blind cross line) and start the blind as she lands from the previous jump.
And another super nice blind to backside at 2:26!! She is getting really good at backsides – your connection is very clear on those! You pulled away a shade early ay 2:42 but then nailed it at 2:59.
On Lilyâs 2nd video:
Adding the first jump in adding more momentum into the layering which worked in your favor! She had even more speed, which got the layering even more strongly and allowed you to get up the line to the blind. Really lovely!Lily 3rd video – this is where the extra distance made it a little harder, especially dog-on-right. When she was on your left, the first rep didnât quite have enough momentum but the rest of the reps did. The reps on your right were very hard with the added distance.
Since we know the handling is looking great for the lines after the layering, adding lots more reps with the thrown reward will help her commit even with the added distance. When you do the whole sequence, all of the rewards are near you (at the end of the sequence) so we can shift the value back out to the line by repeatedly throwing the reward there. Start with the slightly smaller distances to get the commitment going, then move that jump back a foot or two very few reps.
When she is on your left, you can sometimes throw the reward on the line for the bigger distance – but mainly on this side you can do the handling for real because it is a stronger side for her in terms of commitment to the lines.
Small handling detail on this video: on the blind at :39 (to the backside), you placed your handling line in the same spot as the blind to the front side at :14 so she thought it was the front and you had to push her back out. You can do the blind to the backside closer to the inside wing of the jump there, so she lands on the line directly to the backside. But I am loving how well she is finding the backsides!!
Looking at Rosieâs videos: this went well too!!
I see what you mean about Rosie also sending better on your left than from your right. It probably indicates that you are more comfy with them on your left too, because all 3 of you do better on that side đ
When Rosie gets tired, she needs the extra acceleration to get onto the line (early deceleration pulls her off the line).
>She also has this habit of making a tight circle before sending to an obstacle. When she does this she will usually go out to the obstacle.>
That little circle is so interesting, it is like she is buying time to figure it out! Like with Lily, you can throw a lot of rewards out to the line especially on the harder side. So any type of send will mean âgo find the jumpâ and she will have value for leaving you to find the line. That will also add more speed – right now, leaving you means also leaving the reward and that is not necessarily something she wants to do. But if we shift it to leaving you meaning getting the reward, I think we will see her kick into a higher gear of speed đ
The handling went really well on the first video, especially the blinds!
At :44 & 1:20 & 2:09 and 1:03 on the other side, she almost veered away back to the first jump after the blind. That was because your position after the blind was blocking her line to the backside. At 1:35 you were not blocking the line and se went directly to the backside. So you can be a little further across the bar for her with the blinds and that way when she lands from the blind cross she will see the wing for the backside of the next jump.On the 2nd Rosie video:
>Rosie seemed to handle the extra distance better.>
Totally yes! She had no questions about the extra distance and honestly, I think she liked it: there was more distance from you and with you further ahead, she hit higher speeds on especially coming into the blinds. Very fun!!! You can still throw rewards out past the jumps while she is layering, especially when she is on your right, because that will really solidify the drive to the jumps.
Great job here!!
Tracy
Good morning! Welcome to CAMP đ
Great job on these courses – who was the designer? They look like fun đ
Small dog distance skills are harder than big dog distance skills, because the smalls have to take sooooo many more strides! So when you are working Watson: make thrown rewards your priority. He gets near jumps on the big lines but doesnât always take them – so throwing a reward (rather than delivering from your hand or near you) will make a massive difference. I use tennis balls a lot for that: easy to carry, easy to throw, TONS of fun for the dog đ
Also, run with big connection from your eyeballs to his eyeballs đ Deliver all verbals to his cute face, as you are running. And⌠donât use your arms much at all to show the line.
The reason I suggest taking your arms out of it is because pointing forward to the line changes the line of your shoulders and feet, so he is turning off the line.
You can see this at :46 – :59, where you wanted him carry on and take the jump. But pointing forward actually turns your shoulder and feet to the other jump, which is why he kept going to it.But when you had more connection and used the outside arm at 1:00 – 1:03, he found the line brilliantly.
The outside arm at :45 also worked like a charm!The outside arm is super effective because it turns your shoulders to the line and also keeps your feet on the line, plus the dogs read it naturally without needing training.
And the closing of the course was almost all connection (you did raise your arm but he was already on the line) and he found the lines brilliantly!
The reason I mention it is so when you tackle the distance challenges, you do it all with connection and thrown rewards.
I think you brought out of high value thrown reward for Levy about halfway through and he really kicked things up to a new gear of speed! FUN!!! He is also doing really well on the lines!! After the first tunnel, the RC on the next jump makes it hard to get the jump after it (:18) so it is a good spot for an opposite arm for Levy – that opposite arm will point your shoulders directly to the jump and he will go take it.
Great job here! I am looking forward to seeing the handling challenges!
Tracy
Good morning!
>2. Expect them to figure it out (I know some very fast dogs who have figured out how to run on almost any surface but I think it was inherent, not taught). This strategy is a fail with both dogs.>
I think all dogs figure out how to manage their mechanics on different surfaces⌠and most of the dogs on synthetic surfaces are running with variations of an unnatural gait, depending on the lines and distances between obstacles (I spend a lot of time obsessing on videos :))
So they all figure something out, but most often it is not necessarily something we want so helping them out with something on their feet can be effective. And if they trust their feet (specifically, their brakes!) then they will have an easier time adjusting and turning.
>You must have had some sad experiences with proofing to put in a sentence like: âIt is really important to understand that this is NOT proofing, and we are NOT trying to set the dog up for failure or punish the dog.â>
This comes from agility experiences, not obedience (I have zero background in obedience). But yes – agility people do approach it like that but with nicer wording đ The agility world is happy to use punishment without calling it punishment, or set up training âgotchaâ moments rather than find ways to very gradually add in challenges. Thankfully, though, the agility world is embracing the science behind learning so hopefully the older approaches continue to fade away. đ¤
>everything needs to be taught twice. Once with cookies in a calm environment (for example, teaching puppy to sit) and again when the dog is high as a kite (which we achieved with wild tug play).>
Based on what we know about the neurobiology⌠this is not entirely true. It is fascinating stuff! And Denise has probably revised this as well because she does seem to stay really up-to-date on what the science tells us. And the newer studies are changing what we thought we understood even a year ago.
>Iâm not sure why I am feeling so protective of obedience but it does sound like you werenât exposed to the best of obedience training.>
My perspective comes entirely from agility, not obedience. But I do think the word âproofingâ has been poisoned in dog training in general and leans into punishment.
The Under Pressure games went well!
>Looking at the video, I see that Casper is not a fan of circling the tunnel. >
Most of the dogs think it is a bit odd and that is part of how we change the arousal state! He did well with it and good handling is not required for the multiple tunnels đ
>The helper jump is about 8 feet away and he never got near it. On the second one (check = left), I added some wild tug play to try and jack him up. It worked a bit, as the second wrap was looser than the first.>
He was really good about not taking the helper jump! He did look at it on the first higher arousal rep but continued to turn rather than go straight. Yay! It shows an understanding of the wrap cues as being come back around the jump.
What I would like to see more of is collection on the takeoff side of the jump. He is landing then turning for the most part, with his hind end fishtailing out a bit.
Youâll get more successful collection mechanics teaching him this on a lower bar – 16â or even 12â. Right now, he is processing the cues to turn but not the mechanics of collecting before takeoff. So first step is to baseline it on the send from the tunnel exit – he collected better when you rotated earlier at :20 and :42 but I would like to teach him to turn without as much handling from you: the send and the verbal should be the cues, we donât want to have to use as much rotation or getting in his face when you are ahead of him.
This will also help your soft turns too! So revisit this game on a lower bar and you can also have a reward hierarchy: if you see the crunch of collection before takeoff, the big reward can come out: frisbee, perhaps? If it is a good turn without as much collection before takeoff (like he did here), a lower value reward can come out. If he takes the 2nd jump? No reward.
For the teeter:
>I wasnât expecting him to be successful, since he makes the error in training and class, especially as I run by. >
In class, is there a toy placed out on the line? He might think the toy on the line is a context cue to stop til released. But no toy on the line means the stop is a bit optional.
The added arousal did show up here as he had to really balance and rock his weight back – he slid into position! But he held it til released. Good boy!
One thing to be watchful of is when you relate as you run by. Dogs are wizards about predicting our behavior – if you release on your 3rd footfall past the stop on the bottom of the teeter like you did here on both reps, he will count to 3 and release. We humans love to do patterns in rhythms of 3! Or we inadvertently release simultaneously with being at a certain distance from the next jump, or when we raise our arm⌠Dang smart dogs LOL!!
>I could reverse the order and maybe do tunnel circle, jump circle to teeter with the teeter facing the tunnel.>
Yes, that is a fun variation! And count your footfalls – go for 5 steps and see what happens. He might release on step 3⌠be prepared for it! Just have a laugh because it might be what he thinks the release is and try again (no reward). If he fails the 2nd time – move to walking past the end for 4or 5 steps.
>Casper has those long legs and no hair which make him look tall. >
It must be the legs! It produces a higher center of gravity which creates different movement and turning. Also, who is longer? Length from the end of the ribs to the hips also creates very different movement.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Good morning!
>We really havenât done much start line stuff â I was kind of worried about ruining his stays forever â but Iâm feeling like heâs more ready now. >
Totally! And I have full faith in your training skills. You are not going to ruin his stays! And of course the platform can come out in crazy hard environments if needed. It is all about good feelings and getting happy success.
>Iâll also get to leash and between legs set up like Iâll be doing in actual training/trialing now that I think heâs having some good success.>
Adding that plus adding obstacles tips the scales into the stays being harder, so the stay itself can be easier (shorter duration) to be sure he has a high level of success.
>This morning I asked him to sit and wait as I started to put the bowl down and tried to hand him a few kibbles to reinforce as that was happening. He kind of partially closed his eyes and turned his head away, refusing to take the kibble, like it was some kind of a dastardly trick. >
âMOTHER WHY DO YOU PUNISH ME BY MAKING ME EAT FOOD WHILE I AM WORKING?!?!?â Hahahahaha So funny! I love stories like this.
That is definitely really interesting behavior! Was the kibble you tried to punish him with oops I mean hand to him the same stuff that was in the bowl? It might give us an insight into reinforcement and expectations (reward prediction errors). The most recent studies talk about the brain constantly updating expectations, similar to how AI is constantly updating how it works. Fascinating stuff! I wish my brain would update as fast as puppy brains do, though haha
There is a lot of bandwidth devoted to stays while breakfast is being doled out – and the expectation might be that the breakfast bowl is the reward. It is both the work and the reward, maybe similar to how these dogs view stock.
And being asked to eat kibble from your hand was an unexpected thing (in a non-happy-making-way) so it was almost aversive in that moment when all expectations were set on the breakfast bowl.
His response doesnât surprise me, based on the nice combination of Border Collie (and BC ancestors) plus feral dogs in Australia (seriously, Dingo!) used to create Koolies. BCs are not big eaters during work, and less âdomesticatedâ (hello, dingo!) breeds are also not big eaters.
This is probably because of how their nervous system works when they are in work mode (which might be similar to survival mode for the more feral breeds). I saw it with my first BC-Croatian mix who, as a young dog, would also look like I beat him with a stick when I offered a food reward from my hand (or when he was in a stay in front of a jump and I tried to pet him LOL!). Or he would move his head away to look around the offered treat and keep looking at the work, as if the offered treat was a form of distraction for the focus forward skill đ And these were GOOD treats like cheese or meat!
I have a video somewhere of a shaping session that I thought was FANTASTIC – he offered a behavior, he got a treat, then I would break it off and play tug. As I was patting myself on the back for a job well done, I turned off the camera then turned around to see he had spit out every.single.cookie and I didnât even notice hahahahaha Oops!
But, by making eating a part of the âworkâ, they learn that eating is good AND reinforcing even in those work moments, as you can already see with Vibe everywhere else in his life (he is a good eater!) And there is tremendous benefit for the nervous system, arousal regulation, gut biome, and all of it because everything is related.
>I am in so much trouble with this kid.>
Ha! Not at all! He is super cool (Kool!) and will present some fun training questions and challenges, but fun times are ahead for sure!
Tracy
Good morning! Thanks for the updates!! Excellent progress, everything is going really well.
On the tunnel rocking horse video:
>We had a little confusion with the âaroundâ verbal on the wing (usually we use the barrel) â but she got past it fairly quickly.>
Yes, she sorted it out really well!! I think part of her question at the beginning was the visual of the toy dangling – she didnât quite know what to look at. To help her out, you can squish up the toy so it is all in your hand, or stick it in your pocket so your hands are free đ That way you can emphasize connection. We donât need precision rewards here so you can have the toy in your pocket and pull it out at the end of each rep.
She had some questions about turning to her right to get the 2nd wing (on the right side of the screen) – she did great when you started with that wing, no problem!
To get it more smoothly when you are starting from the tunnel, or when you are running to it after wrapping the other wing and sending her into the tunnel, we need to get you ahead of her for now so you can show her the line to the wing with clear connection (dog-side arm back, eyes on her eyes).
So you can send her to the tunnel from an angle where you will be further ahead on the exit. Or send to the other wing from closer to the tunnel, so you can try to get to the tunnel exit head of her. That will give you time to show her the connection and get the right turn. If you are behind her, she is going to the wing but wrapping to her left
At the end, you did wing – tunnel-next wing and she did great! That 2nd wing at 2:55 was a left turn AND you were ahead and connected so the sequence was smooth and fast. Super!!!
>Verbals Question!â¨Does it make sense to have her barrel verbal match her jump wrap verbals?>
Yes – the verbals are the same, meaning âwrap the thingâ đ
> Assuming I eventually have a different left wrap/right wrap verbalâŚâ¨Im still so new to so many of these verbals that Im having a hard time committing >
Based on her speed and how courses are evolving to have more distance (and even more speed, yes – you will want different left/right wrap verbals. You can use your around as one of them, and choose another like check or dig, anything that makes sense to you will work really well.
>Lateral Lead Out
I would recommend watching this on mute :). I didnt use the front facing camera this time, and the phone chose to pick up the rooster/chickens/horses as opposed to me.>Ha!!! I love the noises!!! So fun and really not too noisy at all – at least until the rooster crowed and all 9 of my dogs leapt up and ran around barking đ đ đ
The rocking horse warm up looked great! Her commitment is looking strong and you are able to send her from further and further away. Plus, you are getting really good at recognizing how to fix something on the fly: For example, you needed more connection at :40 (she ended up behind you, thinking it was a blind cross perhaps (when you broke connection to look forward) so you kept going (perfect!) and made a great adjustment on the fly at :45 to add more connection. Double perfect!
When you added the lateral lead outs, she did really well! Very few questions and very strong commitment. She had one question but I think it had more to do with what she was seeing in the handling cue at 2:23 – hard to see if you were facing the barrel but we can see your shadow! Your shadow was facing forward so she did not take the barrel.
Compare to your shadow on the next rep at 2:39 where you were facing the barrel more and stepped to it, so she got it. Yay!You can also work these games with the toy scrunched up or in your pocket – that will free up your hands and also it will start to fade out the visual of the toy so she doesn’t rely on it as a cue to engage with the games.
>Sniffari She loves these! She does tend to start looking to me for direction/interaction or just deciding to lay down and observe after a short period of time>
That is great! Border Collies donât necessarily automatically do extended sniffing, so you can let her do some world watching and observe the world – that is definitely something BCs love and it can be decompressing too. Or you can scatter treats all around as you move to keep the sniffing going.
> but Ive started encouraging a relocation which will re-start the exploration.>
Great! When she stops exploring/sniffing, it might be her way of saying she is done with that area. And introducing a new area is a great way to get her sniffing/exploring again.
â¨>Ill see if I can be coordinated enough to get a video of a sniffari this week that doesnt cause motion sickness.>Ha! That is the hardest part of it LOL
Great job here!!
Tracy
Good morning! Nice session here!
At the very beginning, he was pumped up to be outside.
Was he eating grass or dropped treats? The chewing got in the way of some of his commitment LOL He didnât really do it when you walked away with connection, so definitely keep that connection as you move away to the jump.
The countermotion went really well to the left! He got it pretty easily, except when he was chewing like on the 2nd rep (relatable, I canât concentrate on work either if I am chewing a snack đ)
To the right seemed a little harder – he had to think REALLY HARD at 3:06 to release and find the jump with you waling towards him, but he got it! Super! Then you had a really long tug session as part of the reward. That was great đ
He got it again at 4:10 but it is definitely hard. When you revisit it, he might have it locked in (latent learning!) but if he still says it is hard, you can put the toy or an empty food bowl down on the other side of the wing as a visual aid.
It might have been a bit harder on that side because that is a harder side, plus you were really good about moving forward then releasing. I could see his brain working hard to process it, good boy!!
>Hopefully in the next few days I can get my husband to help move the tunnel and bags out to do the rocking horse exercise. Otherwise it will be the little tunnel and one wing in the basement to start.>
Perfect! Either way, that is a fun game đ Keep me posted!
Great job here!
Tracy
Good morning! Great job working with this beast of a course đ
Yes, there are spots where he had questions – two are easy tweaks to add (and the 2nd one was related to the first one)! The first question is probably the hardest one to adjust and we will need to play around with it a bit.
That first question was on the opening line. 1-2 was super nice but then he went really long over 3, which altered the line 4-5. You did get the better turn at :51 by really turning towards him and decelerating, but that prevents you from get up the next line as quickly as he needs you to.
>It feels like he should have had nice turns because I was right there though.>
Part of what was sending him long was your acceleration away from the landing spot of 2. So as he exited 2, he was seeing giddy up cues đ and we can flip that to help get a turn on 3.
Something to work on to see if this is what will help:
As he exits jump 2 and you finish the FC, stay closer to the landing side of 2 and send away to 3 with both hands up and a strong verbal turn cue (can be his name or a right verbal, whichever one you feel is stronger). Keep turning your shoulders away, though, so you can keep moving up the line. Think of it as handling with 2 hands on the steering wheel of a sports car đ with the cues starting as he lands from jump 2. That should give him the info sooner to add a little bit of collection before takeoff to 3, which should set a nice line to 4-5.
He found 4-5 really well after the first rep with your connection and clear verbals! When he pulled in on the first rep, it was partially because the line from 4-5 was a little different based on the turn at 3, but mainly because you were quiet and turning away. He seems to like forceful connected handling đ
His second question was about where to go to find 6. He (correctly) stayed on a parallel path to your line of motion at :34 and :54 and that is a GREAT thing because we need him to stay on his line at a distance.
So to get the turn to 6: you started the blind earlier at :54 so it helped but your motion was still on that parallel line (so you could get clear of the line and show the 7 tunnel) and so he didnât turn til he saw the reconnection at the end of the blind. That was the rep where you stayed at 3 and rotated to get him to turn, so you really had to blast up the line to get to 6-7.
Less rotation at 3 (and sending to it from further away) will get you there sooner, and also you can start the blind before he takes off for 5 – that way he sees the new connection when he lands from 5 and also sees the line towards 7.
But I think the direction of motion will make all the difference – sending to 3 from the landing side of 2 (instead of getting close to 3) will make it easier to get to a good spot on the landing side of 6 while supporting 4-5.
The middle section was gorgeous through 12!!!! Wow!!! Nice weave entry and flip to the next line!
>I think because I was behind and couldnât put pressure on his line?>
We donât want him to need your pressure on the line, so a couple of ideas for you đ
We can use the parallel path concept that he is very good at to support the line to the backside – stay in motion rather than decelerate at all, because deceleration is part of what pulled him in to the front side.
And, a suggestion about arms:
The dog-side arm turned your shoulders to the front side of the bar (like at 1:10) which is likely why convergence was needed to get the backside at 1:22.
So an option without convergence is to use your opposite arm to cue the backside! As you are moving up the line on this sequence, your left arm (dog side arm) is down, and your right arm (opposite arm) comes up and high, to point to the backside entry wing. And you have big connection to his eyes, saying the backside verbal directly to his cute face. The outside arm emphasizes the shoulders showing the line to the backside, even from a big distance.Using the outside arm to cue a backside it not something commonly seen in North America but the Europeans use it with tremendous success! So it is worth a try, because you will be able get really independent backside behavior without having to use motion towards it.
Play with it without the layering once or twice to get a feel for it, then try it with the layering and see how he does! It will be incredibly advantageous to be able to cue the backside from 3 miles away there đ
Great job here! Have a fun camping trip!
Tracy
Good morning!
It is kind of sad that outdoor trials are going away but also I donât miss the times when the weather was terrible.
>Of course I agree that he needs to learn how to collect and keep the bars up:â¨â When there are a bunch of collected jumps in a rowâ¨â When I move suddenlyâ¨â If I say something.>
He has made dramatic improvements in being able to handle a bunch of collected jumps in a row. That trial video is proof! And mostly he is fine with you talking over the bars⌠except for praise. Praise pulls his focus towards you and doesnât provide info about what is next, so that is where we see bars (after praise). SoâŚ. No more praise on course, it doesnât help him đ
The sudden movement is hard when he is on that collected line towards you (like exiting a front cross).It is definitely nice to be able to use the facility when you are there for your class! That is a nice perk!
>So what I see is that he is not jumping quite as long when I ask him to collect â adding a stride â but he isnât coming as close to the jump as Iâd like him to.>
On this session – the reps that were most informative were when he was a couple of strides away from the jump. Having him start right at the jump doesnât help because what we need is for him to move into the weight shift which starting that close doesnât produce (he kind of pulls himself over it, rather than pushes over it)
Asking for the sit before takeoff is a helpful game as it does produce more use of the rear. The next step for that is having you moving away and not needing to be at the bar or leaning forward to get him to sit (a verbal cue only, or taking the cato plank back out)
>he is flipping in the air to land on the line but not in a good way, in a weird upright way.>
What that comes from is pulling from the front, kind of flinging over the bar.
In this case, to begin teaching better collection on these awkward slices – it has to start on a lower bar. He was on a tall bar here and had a lot of failure without knowing how to properly adjust (bars down and ticked bars). The low bar (12â) will be helpful for him to sort out the striding and be more successful, then the bar can gradually go up. That way he can learn to handle the tall bar without flinging himself.
>Consider the left wrap at :58: it is not ideal but I would take it if I could get it on a course>
That was a little wide because the timing was a little late – he was already preparing for takeoff.
>On the other hand, at 1:07 I would like a sharper turn. However that is much better than the one at 1:15 when I am on the takeoff side of the jump.>
On all of the reps in that section – he was slipping after landing. Watch his front end slip out in the direction opposite where you want him turning towards. And then his hind end has to engage to keep him upright rather than to power through to the next line.
The slipping plays a major role in the turns here, for 2 reasons:
– slips will require an extra stride to adjust after them, widening the turn
-if he is slipping, he is going to devote his mechanics to remaining upright and not to digging in to get a great turn. He really needs to trust his footing in order to make adjustments before takeoff.I know that no one wants to talk about how slippery the flat turfs are but we canât get great turns at high speed unless we can eliminate or greatly reduce the slipping. And Casper is not likely to slow himself down – so we need to help with the footing to produce the collection on the takeoff side. Have you ever tried any of that foot spray (Tacky Paw or something) which gives better grip? There is a big facility local to me which has turf similar to this and lots of folks use the foot spray.
And for training, grass should provide good grip to begin changing the mechanics to get more collection on the takeoff side.
>As far as flexibility, when I am right on top of the jump (:34 for example) I think it looks pretty good. He gets a massage every week and sees the chiropractor every month â this makes me feel like he is âokâ. However, I can add flexibility exercises, if you think they would help.>
Basically, we want more âslitherâ through the front end. Even at :34, he is jumping kind of as one unit with only a little bend through the body. I would be good to see more of a C shape to his body there.
So he is physically ok and uninjured, but doing flexibility exercises can give him the ability to bend even better. From the human perspective – I can get blind crosses done pretty well, but if I did more yoga and more stretching to be more flexible then the flexibility required to re-connect on a blind would be soooo much easier and clearer to the dog. In other words – I can turn, but I am not that flexible so my turns are not that great. It is the game with the dogs đLet me know what you think! There is a lot to unpack with teaching turns!
Tracy
Good morning!
Lift gave great feedback here! Great job embracing the challenge đ
>I finally realized that a bit of decel and more connection would get the jump she had run around before but then held onto it too long and got her commentary on the push to the backside following it.>
Yes, the decel helped set the line better but that section was all about connection.
At :21 and 1:28, you took off without connection (your thought bubble said you were thinking about the layering) so she stayed on her parallel line past the jump.
You were definitely more connected at 1:40 when you decelerated a bit and that totally helped! But then you took off and disconnected for the layering (1:42) and that pulled her off the line to the layering (she marked the moment with a cuss).She is still in the stage where she canât save you if you disconnect on something more complex like this, so the feedback is helpful!! The goal is that you can take off but keep your head turned towards her and make connection so she can see the line. It doesnât have to be really hard connection or staring đ but she does need to see your eyes and line of shoulders.
When you were connected, like at :23-:29 and 1:14 – 1:26 for example: she took the lines including the layering! And you were connected at :27 and she took the backside because you were on her line to the front.
Getting the right line to propel her into the layering without verbals was a little harder – but when you stayed closer to the previous line and accelerated with connection she got it really well!
So overall – we should keep revisiting the silent running. It will sharpen up the connection which Lift will really appreciate and Kaladin will benefit from too.
Great job here!
Tracy
Hi!
> My focus was on rewarding when i made a mistake, he got many cookies. At one point i kept sending him round wings trying to figure out what i was trying to do with my body⌠but hey he seemed to enjoy it.>
Yes, he was all in to get lots of treats and do lots of easy wraps as you worked out timing! And also yes – I think there was an additional dog barking in the distance along with the neighbor dog barking the whole time. His brain was working HARD!
The trick to these flick aways is having later timing: keeping your arm extended towards him and feet together, then letting him get to less than an arm’s length away from your hand before moving hand or foot. That is hard for us humans!
The reps where he had questions – you were too early. I know, we are almost never too early in agility but this is a skill where we mess up by being too early đ What I mean by that is your foot stepped back and your hand started the turn away when he was still a meter or so away from your hand, which cued him to go to the other side of the jump or turned him towards you.
But on the reps where you held your position until he was very close to your hand? Super! You can see that right at the beginning, and also at :49, 1:31, 2:33 – those were my favorites in terms of timing.
The hand seems to be the most important element for him, so you can lean towards him a little and fully extend it towards him. At 2:15 we have a good camera angle of the arm position – it is bent at the elbow and kind of near your hip, so harder for him to visually lock onto. Plus your foot is already stepping back – but you held that position until he got pretty close to you, so he still got the turn! Yay!
And there was an insight into how hard his brain was working, with the new cues (turning away is not intuitive for dogs!) and the big barking all around him: At 2:24 you pointed forward and broke connection sending him to the wing, so it looks like he grabbed your arm. So be super clear with send connection, no pointing forward ahead of him on the sending, so he can see the info very clearly even when overloaded with a lot of internal and external stimuli.
Great job here!
Tracy
