Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Good morning, thanks for the update!
>Judge saw the chiro again yesterday and everything had held up, so he is feeling good.>
That is a relief! And it was a no-disc week, right? So maybe disc is indeed the culprit.
>We did our first group class last night. It went very well! >
YESSSSSS! Happy dance!!!
>Is a pretty quiet time at OTR – for the first half of class, we were the only class and then halfway through, another class started.>
Perfect!
> All quiet dogs, a lot of small dogs in Judge’s class, so the energy is good and pretty calm.>
Double perfect!! He is an adolescent Malinois, we don’t need to start right off with insane high energy LOL!
>It was so empty that I could use his cot for some stationing before his turns (no one in the warm up area but us). >
Awesome!
>We were also able to do a little walking around in the building.>
Also great!
>For his turns, we sat at the ring gate, went in, did the side to side pattern game with bowls – he was giving me very good attention. Then we did some tricks – some spins, shake, then we tugged. >
Fantastic!
>He was great about outing the toy (he usually is, but the environment did not cause this to fail).>
The toy ‘out’ latency is a great indication of arousal state for a dog like Judge. I am glad he did super well!
>I was able to do the 2 bowls in various places in the ring. We were tugging when other dogs were running on the other side – one went over the dog walk next to fence when we were pretty close and he did not stop tugging. >
This is all GREAT!
>We also did a set up in front of a jump and released to strike the toy.>
Yay!
>In between turns, he would go back to the car, then come in, be on his station and have his turn.>
Super! Rest is important!
>I kept in nice and easy, leash stayed on, although I did drop it a few times – when were tugging and I resisted all temptation to do more.>
Good for you. The goal was SUCCESS and you nailed it! YAY!! Getting that first super successful class is critically important, because of the conditioned response it brings to the ring – and a positive conditioned response brings position happy emotions too, which is ideal of course 🙂 So the goal is to make things a little harder while maintaining the high level of success. And change the plan at any time, if the environment changes: easier than expected? Make things harder! Harder than expected? Make things easier.
>I will need to come up with slightly more plan for next week.>
Before you do that: observe him today and tomorrow. How did he recover? Happy, pumped up, relaxed? Then make it harder. Grumpy, tired, maybe a little overaroused? Keep it easy. The recovery can take up to 72 hours and how he feels during it will give you insight into just how hard the class was for his brain and nervous system.
I definitely have leash off, engagement on as part of the possibilities for next week (you can have 2 leashes on and take one off, if you are concerned with him being totally off leash).
And maybe simple sequence stuff? What is his favorite and more successful parts of sequencing?
Great job with him!
Tracy
Hi –
>all depends on the day it seems with him. >
Yeah, adolescent dogs… totally relatable.
>I sat down and he laid on my lap and passed out. He’s done this before. As a puppy he slept through class and he snuggled with me in obedience class. I find it confusing. >
Different arousal state – he is either in the lowest arousal state that he can sleep, or totally overaroued that he is overwhelmed… and sleeps. Probably the context cue of you sitting down in a chair with him in your lap is getting a really low arousal state so he sleeps.
> I still do that and he seems to relax but I could be making up emotions from him that are not capable of dogs lol! >
Dogs do cue off of that and there is plenty of co-regulation and context cues, etc. But we need him to work in a higher arousal state than sleep LOL
>He can walk around for a minute. He can eat. But then he says I’m out when he sees a door. >
What is his physical appearance in that moment? Ear set? Tail set? Eyes? Sounds like heading for the dog is an anxiety behavior so video of him in the context will help. Can you do a decompression (snuffle mat?) when he sees a door, or pattern game or play away from it?
>This week in class he watched Dan do agility. Could eat watch tail loose. >
When he was eating – just eating? Or doing something? I would prefer you guide him into doing something (pattern game, tricks, even goofy stuff like catching cookies you toss to him) rather than watch and eat. I don’t think watching helps adolescent dogs moderate arousal and know what to do with themselves, so he defaults to ‘flight’ (heading for doors) when he feels internal arousal state tip into overarousal.
>The classes he’s in no all the dogs are out. >
No dogs are out, or all the dogs are out?
> He can observe and he can lay casually outside the ring. >
I don’t think laying outside the ring is helping, because while he might appear calm and casual externally, we don’t really know what is happening internally and he is still struggling. So let’s change the approach and help direct what he does more than letting him watch.
>We actually did instant focus today in a quiet green house parking lot. It took home about 30 seconds. He just had to hop on a mat. No Cooke first rep. Releases tried again and he was fine and was like oh! We are working!!!>
He really likes to work, so instant focus is a great one! My Jitterbug (black dog with curly tail) is often the demo dog for the instant focus games because he copes with the anxiety of the world by staring at me and work work work. And it has helped TREMENDOUSLY because he can eat, tug, work, function and be happy in a variety of environments.
>I’ll use time based assessments now!>
Yes, latency is a time based assessment and super useful!
Keep me posted!
Tracy
Good morning! These went really well!
PO 1
The opening looked lovely!>he questioned 4-5, so tried again and noticed my arm was straighter or perhaps showing the line better?>
Yes, you had a bit too much arm and shoulder pull at :07, so letting him see your hand drop down low rather than pull away as much worked a lot better. You were much clearer there at :27 and he did well!
One thing to add to this sequence: you can cue the turn on the tunnel exit before he enters – show him the lateral motion to the net jump and give verbal cues, all while he is still 2 meters away from the entry so he sees and hears it. He came blasting out especially on the first run.
PO 2:
>PO2-I think he read the backside at 4 pretty well and the timing of my cue 6-7 felt swift>
Yes, this all looked great! One suggestion is to try a slice on 6 instead of a wrap, because that might be faster 🙂
PO 3:
>We had trouble 2-3 several times and I really tried connecting>
He gave good feedback here! It is definitely a magnet-fingers moment, keeping your arm/hand pointing back to him the whole time.
>looking at the line.>
This might be where things went wrong – looking at the line caused you to look ahead, which turned your shoulders away from the line. So don’t look at the line – look directly at the dog 🙂 Looking at the line requires you to have to stay close to the line so motion makes it clear. But you will get more commitment and distance if you look at him directly, and keep your arm pointing back to him.
His question on 2 was about connection. On the 1-2 line, your left arm is getting ahead of him and pointing to the jump, which turns your shoulders away from the jump (past it and towards the tunnel a bit). You can see him look at you there and he takes #2 based on your motion to it.
O n the way to the tunnel, you were pointing ahead/looking ahead, which turned your motion away from the tunnel and he was correct to question the cue (especially with a jump right there). When you ran right to it, he got it but if you look right at him as he exits 2 and don’t point ahead, he will commit to the tunnel much more easily with fewer questions.
One thing we have learned about Rexx: if he slows down and looks at you, it I always a connection question 🙂 So even if you see him, he isn’t seeing the connection so keep your arm back and eyes on his eyes to get the line and the speed 🙂
>He did this same sequence in PO1 nicely and I was further away too. We did have more speed though.>
You did have more speed coming into it (he was slowing down at the end because the info was not as clear) but you were also much more connected and not pointing ahead at all 🙂
Great job here!
Tracy
Good morning!
>Well, if it’s not one thing… Spent hours on the chat with Microsoft because my new CPU does not recognize my MS Office license. >
Oh noooooooooo I feel the pain of that torture!!!! Hopefully they got it fixed? Sometimes I just want to throw all the tech out the window. Sigh.
The course work looked lovely, though! Casper did really well on a hard course!
Opening looked great! Can you challenge him to stay on the teeter without you also having to stop your motion?
Threadle wrap to the DW looked great! That is a context we see a LOT of lately and you both were lovely there. You can rotate your feet to point to the DW even sooner, but he held his end position really well even with all the speed coming into it.
He had a bar down at 9 & 10:
The forward send to 9 (jump after the DW) didn’t really tell him about how much turn he needed at :32 – this is a great spot for brake arms on the send to tell him to add a collection stride. I really thunk finding brake arm spots on courses (especially smaller distances) will really help him add collection strides because that is not something he naturally defaults too.Then standing still on 10 didn’t give a lot of info so that bar came down too – since you were mikes ahead of him, you were easily there for a blind. For the rear cross, you don’t need to be as far ahead so you can keep moving through the RC and eliminating the standing still (which doesn’t provided info).
>I was super pumped by the “weaves, turn away, jump, tunnel” which he did beautifully.>
YES! That was great! And you layered a jump on the way to the weave exit too. SUPER!!! He was cueing off of your foot rotation to get the jump after the weaves so you can turn your feet even sooner 🙂
>forgot 16 was a backside>
That still worked to find the tunnel, but with the angle of the tunnel and you pushing forward to it, he thought it was a left turn exit so be sure to pull away to the right before he enters.
>there is something funky about the way I set 17-18-19-20 because the A-frame entrance was bad>
I think the setup was pretty close to the map – the wide turn on 19 was what set up the line to be zig zaggy there. You were decelerating but the big arm cues and facing the outer edge of the wing sent him a little wide, so you can stay decelerated, use smaller/lower hand movement, and for Casper think of it as a threadle wrap instead of a tandem turn. This will mean your feet will rotate away from him kind of like a spin, to tighten it all up. Part of it is that these turn away threadle wrappy moves are not all that familiar for him, so he is wider as he figured them out. But he will tighten up when he sees them more regularly and as we figure out which cues help him the best.
Hooray for the gorgeous new a-frame!!!
>forgot 22 was a backside — probably why I couldn’t get the turn from 22 to 23!>
Yes, with the front side at 22, the teeter was 100% on his line as you accelerated. SUPER nice teeters, though! Hope you rewarded them!!!
A front cross would be ideal with 22 as a front side, or a big threadle pull (which worked on the last rep) then rear cross 23 But it is still a weird line (you were probably cursing me in your head 😆 but it does run better with 22 as a backside 🙂 )Great job here!!
Tracy
She was a super good lady here, going right past Chris at the beginning of the video! WOW!!! He was right there but not talking and did not have his hand in his cookie pocket 🙂 And the 2nd start was much easier, no human distractions in the ring.
You can definitely add that to class – ring crew sitting far away – as long as you get her pumped up with volume dial tricks and stay connected, then run Spike if the challenge is too hard and she leaves to visit.
Keep me posted!
Tracy
Thanks for the video! I always like to find what causes dogs to leave an in this case my guess is she was a little mentally tired (3rd turn) – plus Chris was talking, walking towards you, and asked if you were ready. AND he had his hand in his pocket which is the international signal to dogs for I have a cookie LOL! She thought he was super cool and needed to know if he indeed had a cookie 🙂 and you can see she was looking at him. So if you see her looking away, take that moment to get her engaged – it can be her spin tricks, or a magic word. But don’t let her go until she is looking at you or the jump, and not at the fun seminar presenter 🙂
I don’t think she was stressed – maybe just a combination of tired and a high level distraction.
In that moment… grabbing her and bringing her back by the collar *can* create stress. So instead of going to get her: run SPIKE!! Spike is always available. I am sure Luna will rejoin very quickly if you do that. Chris might think you are nuts haha but it will get Luna back very quickly.
Tracy
Good morning!
>I do have a question tho, he has classes obedience ones but they are meant to bring him into the real world. And I have dog shows. We are not actually working in these settings because he can’t. Does he just not go? Or is it ok to go with just a watch observe the world with some breaks. So not flooding for an hour.>
That is tricky because world watching is good! But it really depends on what he is doing when he is watching: is he able to relax on a bed or cot? Or is he stimulated or concerned about motion? And after a few minutes, can he eat/respond/tug? If he goes a long time watching and still cannot eat or respond or tug, I don’t think the watching is helpful. If he needs 5 minutes then can respond? Then definitely do it.
But also, we need to find the threshold for where he can immediately respond in those environments. Bearing in mind that not being able to do things like eat or tug or respond to cues is an overarousal state which is not a comfortable internal state, you an split things a lot more to find that comfortable state:
For the dog shows… you can hang out on the perimeter and world watch, and assess what he is doing. And you can be even further from the perimeter (parking lot?) and see exactly where the threshold is for starting to be able to eat/play/respond.
Also, the instant focus game from the Launch seminar is a good way to get, well, instant focus on the perimeter.
The key will be finding the threshold, as that is our starting point.
Since dog shows are not always available or easy to find threshold – I send people to work in the parking lot of a dog park all the time. You can park on the perimeter of the dog park where he can see/hear the dogs but there is a ton of distance available to find the threshold of where he can eat/tug/respond.
And at home & FF, adding to the environment in terms of distraction – it can be novel items on the floor, a new person or dog, slowly building it up.
>The one obedience class gave me permission to work him in the agility ring. That he can handle.>
In terms of finding the threshold, how far away is he and how well can he see/hear the other dogs? That is a great starting point! And then you can gt closer and closer over time. It can be something like setting up a line of bowls heading getting closer to the other dogs, then moving along the line towards them then away, then towards then away. And it is a great opportunity to use the cookie-engage-tug-run to next bowl-cookie-engage-tug-run to the next bowl progression.
>Trigger for him is a room full of dogs in case that matters.>
Are there times in the class when only one other dog is out on the floor? That is also a great starting point in terms of threshold. Or, set it up in training! Can he do simple fun things with Bella also in the ring, then you can switch and he chills out while Bella does a thing?
let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
> I gather that you first say tunnel like 10 feet away and follow it with go, left or right as the dog approaches the five foot mark. Is that correct? >
The tunnel cue comes at the exit of the previous obstacle: so when they are finishing the wing wrap in this game, or jumping/landing from the previous jump on a course. That makes the tunnel cue more like 15 feet away (with the wing wraps here, depending on how you set it) and o ver 20 feet away on a course. Then yes, the next directional comes no later than 5 or 6 feet before the enter: that is both the verbal and physical cue so the dogs hear and see it before entry.
Side note: some handler have multiple tunnel cues to cue the different exits. That would require more verbals, if you want to add more 🙂 but over the years I have found that ‘stacking’ the cues like this for the tunnel has worked perfectly.
>Then on exit, I gather it is a soft left or right, not a wrap. Or could it be a wrap using the wrap directionals?>
Yes – for this game, it is the soft left/right. You can cue a wrap exit if you see it on course, but we really don’t see them that often.
The video looked great and you locked into the timing! I was happy with the timing of the GO reps at :21 & :28 & :38, the right turn reps at
:47 & 1:01 & 1:14, and the left turn reps at 1:25 & 1:32. That was pretty much all of them, after the first couple of Go reps. Yay!2 suggestions for the turns:
– you can also let him see you turn your shoulders to head to the next wing on the left/right cues.– You can also say left/right more quietly so it is very different from the big loud Go verbal. The dogs might not always catch the actual word, but if the volume is different they always catch it. When I use left/right at this point, I say it like I am asking a question so I am not yelling it 🙂 The dogs generally respond to loud verbals with extension, and softer verbals with collection.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Good morning!
>I got myself turned around a few times on which way to wrap and realized I was cuing the equivlent of a backside >
No worries, this game can be played wrapping either way on the start wing 🙂
>And my other verbals were a hot mess… I need some mechanics planning before I do these games.>
I totally relate to this! When I started adding all of these verbals, I had to give myself a mini walk through for the verbals before I added the pup 🙂
Looking at the video:
She was lovely here!
On the 2nd rep, I think a fly or something landed on her flank and that distracted her, but the rest of the reps were good!>1) I feel like she’s still just barely committing to the jump and really cuing that off my movement to it, do I stay at this baby stage until she’s more clearly making the decision to take jump?>
I think she is moving forward to the jump AND tracking the toy throw, as hounds are able to do LOL! You had some really good reps of throwing after she looked forward at the jump and that is key. For example, at 1:24 you nailed the timing of the toy throw: you threw it when she looked forward and not at you. So definitely be connected and watching her like you were there, and throw when you see her look at the jump and not at you (no need to wait for her to get to the jump, you can throw as soon as she looks at it). And using a ‘get it’ marker will also let her drive ahead to the reward.
Because she is large and fast, you can also give her more room between the start wing and the jump – which will also give you more time to see her look forward at the jump to throw the reward.
It looks like she was going back and forth between cookies and the toy really well here, so a way to get her to look at the jump more and not at you or the toy is to use food rewards: using a ginormous light-color treat, you can throw it like you would throw the toy. It is harder to track the treats so she will end up looking forward at the jump more and not at you as much. Then you can tug between reps to keep her spicy 🙂
One more idea: you can use wings on the jump if you have more wings, to give her a bigger visual. A cone can the be the start wing if you only have one set of wings.
> I use “go” as a jump cue. I’m guessing your go go go is more of a go fast and long in whatever direction >
Yes, my GO verbal means big extension on a line and take the obstacles on the line. My ‘jump’ verbal is actually a bit of mild collection compared to the Go verbal.
>(I maybe use “go on” for this though haven’t introduced her to that yet).>
You can use GO ON with a different volume and energy to mean big extension to the jump. Or a different word: some folks use “RUN” but I am afraid the R would sound like the beginning of her name and it would sound too much alike.
And this is a good game to introduce the go on verbal! Give her another session or two of the baby level and when she is consistently driving to the jump, you can just add it into the handling to ‘name’ the behavior.
Great job here!
Tracy
Good morning!
Thank you for the update! I was thinking of you this weekend and I am glad it was a blast 🙂 Vibe did a lot of Big Boy Stuff here, both in terms of the agility skills and the environment! Wow! And I am glad you outlined your needs & interests to Taner so that he could help create an optimal experience 🙂 That is soooo helpful.>I started to see that Vibe’s tendency might be to flank jumps once he started to get some speed towards them so we worked on some specific drills with him on Saturday to help him rethink that approach.>
Do you have any video of this? The most common reason for flanking in BCs, Koolies, & Shelties is connection questions: they connection is unclear so they widen their line in order to expand their peripheral vision & see the bigger picture to find the correct line. And that can result in passing by jumps.
So let me know it you have any video and we can sort it out. He is not going to be a flanker, no worries, we are just going to find his questions and answer them in these early stages of training 🙂
>Sunday, which was day two, after some apparently amazing latent learning, Vibe was really good.>
It was probably more than latent learning – it was probably all the good vibes and endorphins that you created, bubbling over from a great, empowering day on Saturday 🙂 Yay!
>Vibe was really good. He was fast, confident, loved playing with his toys.>
Yes! He looked lovely! My only suggestion is that on the big lines where he is going fast fast fast: instead of a thrown or placed dead reward, it will be better to enlist someone to be at the end with a toy on the ground (on a line, like the moving target). Then when you cue that ending line (like with Go cues and handler acceleration) – the person watches for him to look at the line, then she takes off running and dragging the toy for him to drive to then he can grab it when he gets to it and run through it (the other person lets go and he can decelerate on his own with the toy in his mouth). Hopefully there is enough coffee in my for this to make sense 🙂
I suggest this for 2 reasons:
– it gets MORE power and acceleration on those big lines
– It prevents the sudden stops from high speed which slam his shoulders (yes, I am obsessed with shoulders LOL)Enjoy your high from. The weekend and the relaxation days, and then we will get back into the training 🙂
Tracy
Sorry it took me so long to find the link! This is what I wear to stick my hand in Ramen’s mouth and tug on a ball LOL and also protects my hand from the tug toys and leashes etc.
And cute colors too, that is important 🙂
Le me know if the link comes through.Tracy
Hi!
>I think my baby tunnel is too small to work the left and right exits. >
You can totally use the baby tunnel! The timing of the turn cues remains the same (before he gets into the tunnel) so tunnel length doesn’t matter.
Or, use 2 wings, one to replace each end of the tunnel. You can then play with ing exits: if you want him to do both wings in a row like a race track, use your left/right verbals. Or you can cue one wing only with a wrap cue! Let me know if that makes sense or if I need more coffee to explain it 🙂
Tracy
Good morning!
The heat wave sounds gross! It has been a HOT summer and my fingers are crossed for decent weather ahead!
Looking at the videos: these went well – they are really hard games!
>I’m still relying far too much on movement to pull her in for the wraps – is it ok to continue that a bit longer to keep her success rate higher? Or should I be fading that out faster?>
It will depend entirely on her success rate. For example, on the first video, she needed a few reps and some motion support to figure out the tunnel and then needed to remember the wrap after a couple good tunnel reps 🙂 And on the 2nd video – she was all about the tunnels and needed help with the wraps. Then value switched back to the wrap so she needed a step to the tunnel.
So as she is learning this, you can support a bit with handling, that is perfectly fine! Then you can start to fade out the handling cues.
One suggestion is to start closer to the wing/tunnel setup (within an arm’s length) as that will help you fade your motion out because she won’t need any help going to the obstacles.
And letting her sleep on it will help – their brains often lock in the learning during sleep 🙂
>Macklynn is going through her first heat cycle, and I don’t think she will be done by Wednesday night. That means we will lose out on her time in the arena/on the equipment this week. >
That’s a bummer about losing arena time! They won’t allow her, even in panties?
>Is it possible for us to post videos of the larger space games for feedback the following week? Or will she be too far behind? I can try to modify for my little yard and minimal equipment.>
You can totally post videos when you have a chance to do them, that will work well and you will not be too far behind 🙂 We have catch up time built in for instances like this 🙂
Great job here!
Tracy
Good morning!
Sounds like you had a great time with the seminar! Yay!
She did really well with find my face in the new, busy location!!! She never considered leaving you to visit with the people and dogs.
Only one suggestion: remember to start with a few reps of the normal pattern game where you are walking back and forth but remaining engaged while she returns her engagement to you. Then you can add the disconnection to the game. That adds it as more of a game, and she won’t get worried especially on those first few rep where you are walking away from her.
>I incorporated it before we stepped into the ring to work with Chris Tucci at yesterday’s workshop.>
Fantastic!!! You can also use regular pattern games before entering the ring, and the volume dial game.
>Usually, she visits the instructor and anyone else within reach and wastes minutes! Yesterday, out of our 15 minutes of total working time, she only visited for 14 seconds!>
This is freaking awesome! YAY!!! I am doing a happy dance 🙂
When she did visit for 14 seconds… do you remember what happened right before she visited? Or do you have video? We can figure out what happened and work on getting that 14 seconds down to zero seconds 🙂Great job here!
Tracy
Good morning!
>Patterns aren’t working with toys. He only wants the toy in my right hand even if they are the same. >
You can totally make up a pattern that uses one toy in your right hand: we go with what he likes 🙂 So it can be something like toss a big treat, he eats it, re-engages… toy toy! It does not have to be 2 hands if that is hard for him.
>I don’t think I understood this game as always needing the short easy first. >
Working it on the flat should start with a pattern because that indicates that he is working and not just hanging out 🙂
>And I do use the toy for this one since he can tug with my right hand or my left. >
Perfect!
>It’s got to be one or the other for him and most preferred is in front of me. He doesn’t like “side” tugs which I know is odd since it’s more pressure in front. >
That is perfectly fine – most dogs prefer tugging in front because it is more natural play and they get a good grip on it to pull back 🙂
>I’m also slightly confused on the patterns when the he’s distracted. Isn’t he going to be ?>
Nope! The goal is that the brain processes the environment very quickly and he does not appear distracted at all.
> Isn’t that sort of what this helps with ?>
Yes – but it has to be motivating enough that his brain quickly processes distractions and ‘discards’ interest in the environment. The speed (latency) of his re-engagement is what tells us if there is a struggle or not.
>but I can’t imagine he’s ever going to go anywhere and just be like boom yeah ! Patterns! >
That is 100% our goal for dog sports. He can do it! Dog sports do not have the leeway for long acclimation periods, so we need a framework to get very fast, happy engagement in a passionate way.
It will look like this:
Dogs racing in the room we entered. Lots of barking and stimulation! This was built first with toys when he as younger (because he couldn’t eat when he was younger) and then food was easier to use.
Chase can totally do this but we must crack the code on what the motivator is.
>Or maybe just not now but I still need to get him out and do something to help with the new space. >
It is all about the motivator – we are just treading water with stationary bowls and food rewards. We all like fast progress 🙂 so we need to step up the motivator. I know a lot of behavior work is done with food-only but also… Border Collies tend to think food only and not moving is STOOOPID so we need to have a better motivator to make forward progress with quick engagement in any environment.
>Keeping him home is what got me in trouble already.>
This is not about keeping him home – this is about finding and using a better motivator. He has come a long way with eating food (yay!) but we either need to add a lot more motion to the food use, or add a toy. Or both! I vote for both.
Let me know if that makes sense.
Tracy
