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Hi! I am glad you found the answers helpful! It was great having your post because it provided a framework for discussion – thanks for that!!
>> My one question is weave poles- is this a case by case situation?
Well, yes, but also no. We really don’t see stress in a lot of dogs until suddenly we see BIG STRESS. Things get stacked up and they can manage it… til they can no longer manage it and then we are in a big hole. So just because the dog does not appear stressed, we cannot assume that they are not stressed. In fact, I think we can assume that, biologically, the ARE stressed because unexpected things like errors can definitely fire up the HPA axis and also unexpected things use dopamine releases (reward prediction errors). So there is a lot happening even if we don’t see an immediate behavioral expression of it.
>>I’m thinking of the two different scenarios- one where the dog missed the entrance and couldn’t collect in time which you could fluidly bring them back around and try again so it wouldn’t be a stop and punishing scenario, >>
I would not stop a young dog and try again because it might be a stop/punish scenario for them even if we don’t think it is. Plus, this goes way beyond operant: they are processing so many things in the internal and external environment, that they might have done the absolute best they could with the info provided (and I am not going to tell them that their best is not good enough, seems rude LOL!!) and also the adolescent brain can sometimes tell itself that they got it right, which makes stopping confusing.
So I only circle a dog back around if they have a good long history of happy, comfy ring experiences at trials, and a high rate of success at home as well as excellent resilience in training for making “fixes”.
>>the dog popping because the environment is too hard.>>
Pooping is more obvious, of course, so that does does not want to be in that environment. But it is possible there is stress behavior happening that we don’t see in the moment because it is not always obvious (until things implode, then it is really obvious).
>> I”m not sure if we should always keep going>>
Keep going with a young dog and if you can, you can loop the dog around back onto the line before the weaves to try again without an obvious stop.
>> or are there situations where you would try again>>
Only with experienced adult dogs.
>> and if they failed a second time, then keep going?>>
Yes, if there is more than one failure with a dog that theoretically “knows” how to weave… then yes, move on if they miss it a second time and deal with it outside of trialing: incomplete understanding perhaps? Something hurts, perhaps?
I know that I am likely to be in the minority with this advice. So many trainers/instructors are firmly in the operant-only mode of “make them do it” (oy!) or “but they KNOW how to do it” (do they, really?) or “they are blowing you off” (they are not) or “they are naughty” (ummmm…no.) So remember that MOST behavior learning and output is NOT operant Operant conditioning is just one small piece. It is the piece that we humans can observe which is why we are obsessed with it LOL!!
>>So many things to think about! >>
ACCURATE! It is incredibly complex and our canine teammates don’t speak English, which makes communication a little harder 🙂
>>But so far this journey is going really well so I’m excited to see where we are next year since she’s only 20 months old.>>
YAY! 20 months, you have almost survived adolescence! Exciting times ahead for sure 🙂
>>Looking forward to MYOB this weekend which is exactly what my other dog needs>>
MYOB will be fun – there will be some overlap (because, the science doesn’t change even if the class is different LOL!) but also some new stuff!!
Have fun! Keep me posted!
TracyHi! I will grab a photo of it shortly. Basically, I went to the the supermarket (Walmart will have them too) and grabbed a big, cheap bath mat with the stick up nubby things (I think they are also used for dusting?).
The fabric is called “texture noodle” lol!
Then I hacked it into roughly 6″ by 6″ squares with a scissor. Voila! A snuffle mat that I can stuff into my pocket.
Tracy
Good morning!
>>I use the smaller Toppl – it fits in the vest pocket.
Perfect!
> It had sardines at the bottom and yogurt on top – I froze it. She got a few licks during the first run and just at the dog walk on the second…and, of course, finished it off after the run. Sardines are soooo stinky.>>
Gross, yummy, brilliant. The results were spot on, so using the delicious combo is something to continue 🙂
>>I’m actually in a seminar in about a week. I’ll see how it goes and I can always trade out my BC if she gets too stressed. She has been to the venue previously. Should I take a big stock of toppls with me and do the same thing?>>
Yes, totally bring the Toppls!! And talk to the instructor about keeping her engaged with it, NOT setting her up to fail in hard skills, etc. So if there is a skill that is hard (like a backside threadle wrap in front of a group of new people), you will want to break it down, or move it further from the crowd, or ask the crowd to move back. The most important thing is to advocate for your girl, so she has a GREAT time. You can set up each turn for her as a reinforcing session. Fast and fun! There are many wonderful seminar instructors out there who can help you with that.
Keep me posted!
TracyThanks
Good morning! Loved this it session!!
And the ‘look’ marker is a good addition to the toolbox.You were able to get more duration here pretty quickly! And the more she did this, the more she got settled into her sit (note that there was FAR less movement of her cute feets :)) and you were able to add praise! And conversation about barking LOL! The barking might have just been a product of the toy stimulation. She was even falling off the stool a little when the toy was in the picture. So… for the toy, use the tug-sit-tug approach without the stool to jump start the concept of moving into and holding a sit, even with the SUPER exciting toy there. The demo for that is in the explosive stays part of the game.
You can totally cue her to hop up on the stool, that part doesn’t have to be shaped. So you after each reinforcement, you can go back to the stool, ask her to hop up and sit, then move away again. That add in both the duration and the lead out as you move away.
More about the toy:
>>I tried a toy but arousal got high or she got tired. I can try that again in a short session. >>
Yes, and try the toy at the beginning so we rule out the possibility of being tired (remaining motionless is in a stay burns a LOT of brain fuel for puppies, even with a high rate of reinforcement).
>>I have a word for a toy thrown back- catch.>>
Perfect!!!
>> When so I try without the stool?
For the food toss rewards, the next step would be to fade the stool to something lower like a small mat. And if she is happy with that, you can fade the mat pretty quickly too (or the mat can stay in for a while so the stay gets solidified).
For the toy tosses and releases forward to the toy, try it without the mat and just do quick sits and ‘catch’ releases (tossed back to her) so she gets the impulse control of sitting in the presence of the toy started. Then I think the stay element will be pretty easy!
If you have time and, more importantly, bandwidth to do one more session before you leave for the Invitational – great! That way she has a few days for her brain to percolate on it. If not, no worries, it can wait til you get back and her brain can percolate on it while you are gone. I generally don’t try to squeeze in a session when. I’m running around like a crazy person trying t be ready to leave for a big event, because my level of stress does not make for good training LOL!! So if you are busy, it is definitely better to shelve it til you are home 🙂
Great job here!
TracyGood morning!
>>Another tunnel threadle session with the RT. Are we good to add the threadle cue the next time we work on this?>>
This is going really well! Yes, add the tunnel threadle verbal, starting her on an easier angle to help guarantee she turns to the tunnel. She is sometimes moving before the verbal starts, so try to add in a gentle collar hold (one finger is probably all she needs LOL!) so you can add the verbal then let go, to really help attach the verbal.
The lap turns are also going nicely!! Super! I scrolled back to see if you had all started the tandem turns and I don’t see them, so go ahead an add those. And if you have done them and I missed it LOL you can take this skill outside, so she can do it with harder distractions (if the weather is decent 🙂 )
Great job!!
TracyHooray for her success with the tugging! She was great in class too!
Good job revisiting the moving stuff – puppies are often perfect with that when they are wee babies, but then if we put it away and come back to it when they are teenagers, I often see them being afraid of it. I am sure there is some brain-development reason (teenagers are more prone to fear, the neural pathways developed in early puppyhood for the behavior have withered, and so on) so I just try to keep the moving stuff in the loop very regularly now 🙂
Tracy
He sounds amazing! Sorry to hear about the previous owner’s health issues. If you have a moment, can you email a photo of him? I can pass his info along to some folks who might be interested. The email is agilityuniversity@gmail.com
Tracy
Good morning!
>>so they were riding roombas >>
Do you have video of this? It bet is is adorable and hilarious!!!!
She did really well smacking the pillow. She also thought the fit bone was harder – she looked at it (nice timing on that “yes!” there) but was not as sure about getting on it (and told you about it LOL!) You can brace it with out feet, maybe extending your legs and having it between your knees so she can jump onto it and get some of the motion and not all of the motion at first. You can also under-inflate it for now because that makes it easier to get on, then gradually re-inflate it back to normal.
Your platform in the 2nd video was great! Attacking it did seem like a good plan for a moment LOL but then she started offering really well. You can sit even closer to it, with it right in front of you, so she is more sure that it is what you specifically want her to interact with. She seems really tuned in to your body cues, so if you are angled away, she is following that angle and not necessarily thinking about the object near you. But if you are facing it more, it will more obvious of a cue to interact with it.
>>I can work on building something better later on. >>
If you build something, you can build another one like this so you have 2 of them. That way you can use them side-by-side next to each other to create a wider playing field (easier to get all 4 feet on) or put then together length-wise to get a long, skinny ‘balance beam’ effect 🙂
Looking at the tugging: Part of this is figuring out the individual play style for each pup. She does seem to really like toys and I see what you mean about her liking the chase-and-grab more than the hard pulling and clamping down on them.
>>Djinn doesn’t bite and grip like her brother or her mom does, she doesn’t bite and tug hard. >>
You can get her going with the chasing (she definitely interacts with the toy when you do that) and the longer the toy, the bette based on her level of interaction. That long snake toy that she grabbed and shook is a definite favorite!!! That had great tugging!!
You can build up more of that hard grab-shake play style by letting her win it and run off with it, when she grabs & shakes like she did 1;43 🙂 And because she has a small mouth, you can try using flatter toys (maybe ones that squeak a bit) and you can try flat toys with real fur, if you have any. But letting her win will definitely help build up the grabbing and pulling.
>>Wing wrap foundations try 2: Since toys are EXTREMELY EXCITING>>
Yes! She really got into it with the toy! You can use 2 toys, one in each hand, so you can get her going back and forth without having to switch the toy around. And also yes, she will be very fast and stimulated which is good 🙂 She recommends that the hedgehog is one of the toys LOL!!! I think that is what she went and took from the toy box. It was adorable! But also you can pick up the toy box during training, so she doesn’t have access to choose the option of leaving the session to grab a different toy.
>>I tried using treats instead. She was a lot slower and sometimes didn’t hear the treat drop, so I moved the bowls further out>>
Smart adjustment to move the bowls further out to make them more visible. Using treats is a great way to play this. Yes, she will be more methodical but that is fine: being more methodical will give her brain more time to process the pattern of it and the mechanics, so you will see her be able to get it right and then pick up speed.
>>Djinn does everything EXTREMELY FAST which is fun, and I also have to be so fast with my rewards. >>
Yes! The faster the pup goes, the quicker we have to be… and I personally find that hard with small dogs because they are SO QUICK!!! But you are doing really well – the trick is to have the rewards ready so that you can get them in quick, and use marker words like ‘get it’ to mark the correct behavior and then tell her where to look for the reward placement.
>>I think she could probably be moving faster in progression than I am but she’s being very kind to me lol>>
I can relate, I think my puppies are the same way LOL!!! At least 75% of what we are doing at this stage is working on human mechanics, so the puppies get rewarded for letting us figure out how to handle our hands/treats/toys, feet etc.
Great job here!!
TracyGood morning! It is fun to see you playing along 🙂
The strike a pose on the flat with the toy on the ground went well! He seemed to understand the assignment as the chain that is it: come touch the hand then onwards to the toy. Yay!
When adding the hoop (which is a smart jump-replacer for a smaller space!) you can place yourself closer to it (close enough to casually reach out and touch it without leaning at all, so he has to turn as he is approaching it) and for the hoop also, more in the center of it so the hoop itself is more salient. In this session, more of your body was past the exit of the hoop so he was having to think extra hard about finding the hand versus following the rest of the body. You can also put a wing on each side of the hoop, which will help guide his focus to the center of it.
And he was totally getting the idea of the in-then-out chain here too – you can see on the last rep that he came towards your hand then turned to the toy, which is exactly where the behavior is going.
You can add in different angles when you get more space, he is definitely ready for the various start positions, as well as the reward on the ground.
Rocking horse game is off to a great start! Be sure to let him finish chewing and swallow before starting the next rep LOL!!! The toy works better for him in this game because no chewing is needed 🙂 plus he doesn’t look at a cookie in your hand. Super! He did really well when you did a couple in a row with the toy – really fast with lovely commitment! As you add more speed and distance to this game, you can stay connected after the FC with your hand back to him for one heartbeat longer – let him get almost to you and then send him to the next barrel. When you send a bit early, he hesitates (probably looking for the connection) so I think staying connected for one or two more of his steps will support his line even more.
Next steps on this one would be taking it outside if the weather is good, so you can spread out the barrels a bit more (add another 6 inches to a foot every couple of reps). And then if that goes as well as it did here, you can move to the advanced level!
Great job on these!!
TracyWow!!! Not only is his backing up looking really strong but he was doing it in a really distracting place with other dogs watching and barking. WOW!!
Doing coordinated things in a highly distracting area is hard for puppies and I am proud of him! I think you ended up getting a little too far away so he turned around in the middle of the session. But then you got a little closer so he was able to back up.
And it was a short, sweet session. Well done to you and Henry and to your videographer who was giving you good advice.
How is he feeling about wobble boards and moving objects? If he is happy with them, you can start him backing up onto something that moves a teeny tiny bit. Start it really easy, so he is not surprised that it moves – I like to start with all 4 feet on, lure 2 front feet off, then let him step the 2 front feet back on. When he thinks that is easy, you can lure all 4 feet off and then let him step back onto it, like he was doing here but with fewer steps at first because the object is moving more.
If he is NOT happy with wobble boards, don’t do the backing up yet – let him get lots of treats for getting a wobble board that only moves a tiny bit (you can prop it up with lots of towels under it to limit the movement).
Great job here!!
TracyGood morning!
Oh, he is just so cute doing his tunnels!!!!
He seemed very happy to go through the tunnel. To really isolate the tunnel verbal, try a different start to each rep: line him up next to you and near the tunnel entry, and gently hold his collar (not pulling back or anything, just holding). Then while holding him, you can say ‘tunnel tunnel tunnel’ several times… then let go of him so he can do the tunnel. You were saying the tunnel verbal but it was getting hidden in a lot of conversation like “Henry ready go tunnel go good” So be careful with the chatter and isolate the cue – then during the reward, you can talk to him like a proud momma 🙂 And then get quiet again for the next rep so he can really isolate the tunnel verbal.
Because he really loves the tunnel now 🙂 You can use a cookie to bring him back to you and line up at your side. On the 2nd video, he went into over-achiever mode and was doing it without you LOL!! So a cookie at your side will clarify to him that you would like him to start next to you, rather than offer it independently 🙂
You can also use a toy for this game! Great job!
TracyGood morning!
>>As you will see he now has started to take off with the prop, so I am going to try a different prop moving forward.>>
Rather than change props, you can play with him at the start of each session with a toy that he likes. He was feeling stimulated here as you started the session and needed an outlet for that energy (teenagers, especially sporting breeds that like to run around with something in their mouth). So rather than change props (he is likely to pick up a new one too), you can direct his teenage energy to playing with you! And it might not be a normal toy, it might be an old towel or something, but playing interactively will provide an excellent outlet and start to the session.
For the parallel path, I think there was a lot of conversation about whether he should interact with the prop or not – you wanted him to touch it, he wanted to pick it up LOL! So I think starting the session with play and then putting the prop down can hopefully direct him where to put his mouth (on a toy) and where to put his feet (on the prop :)) That will smooth it out when you add the parallel line motion.
>>I am also using Cheerios to see if they will be a lower value food reward to minimize his looking at my hands for the food.>>
Smart choice! You can also break them in half LOL! He was good about not really obsessing on your cookie hands here, so I think the Cheerios might end up being the best choice.
>>I have also been able to enlarge the training space and have a room upstairs I can also use when I need a smaller space.>>
Perfect!! And hopefully we all have a very mild winter so you can go outside and to the training barn, etc.
Nice work here!
TracyGood morning!
Excellent first session with the parallel path game! He totally got the ice and seemed to have no trouble finding the jump (even when he had to go out of his way to get it when approaching on an angle). Love it!!!
So for the next session: now that he has the understanding percolating, we can isolate the looking ahead as well. On the first session, the correct timing of the click was when he was basically arriving at the jump. That does get the pups looking at us a little because there is nothing else to look at when the arrive at the jump and the toy has not been throw yet, plus clickers often get them looking at us. The next step has 2 things to help him look ahead:
– use a ‘get it’ marker rather than a clicker. The ‘get it’ both marks the behavior and tells him where it will be, so he is less likely to look at you
– mark and throw the reward for his intent to go to the jump, as opposed to his arrival at the jump. That means when you see him look at the jump and take that first step towards it, say ‘get it’ and toss the reward past the jump.You can also use a toy for this, if there are some that are easy to throw 🙂 like a hollee roller.
The barrel work is looking really strong – I agree, the left turns look really great and now really match the right turns. So fun! He was doing a great job of ignoring the toy on the ground to wrap the barrel and then leaving you in the dust to get the toy. You can add in running faster to the toy to see f you can get there first (toy race-style).
And he is ready for the advanced level of this game, with the decel in between the barrel wrap and the drive to the toy.
Great job!
TracyGood morning!
>> Just because I think playing with the toy is the warmup to a working session doesn’t mean she thinks it’s the thing to do>>
Right! She is very quick to recognize indicators in the environment of what is coming next. I am 100% sure she knows the ‘getting ready to train’ things you do, smells the treats coming out, sees shaping items, knows that going into certain rooms mean training, etc. So that indicates a training session which is fine – but the toy play at the start is conflicting with the environmental cues she is processing. Conflicting indicators = frustration or maybe not frustration, but maybe an arousal state change that she is too young to regulate yet. We want to add the toy play for the arousal state changes, for being able to use it for reinforcement, etc – but we just need to crack the code of when/how it works best for each individual. And they sure do all have individual codes LOL!!!
So let’s add the bridge behavior for now and see what she thinks of it 🙂 She was great hopping onto her cato board here! I don’t think she needs to be in a down or a sit – she can offer them but doesn’t need to hold the position. I am happy if they just stay on the board then transition into the training. That way you don’t have to worry about criteria maintenance as you get ready for the next part of the session. The board was a tiny bit of a distraction at first, so going right into the rotated sending was hard at first. She did sort it out (yay!)
You can stand up more for this, to help prep her for when you are going to be moving faster (and also so she doesn’t jump up at your hands). Because it is new and hard, try the next session just like this and let’s see what latent learning tells us 🙂
<> Had mixed results getting her to tug in away from the training area after she came off the mat at the end.>>
Possibly because the mat as a step-down out of the arousal was effective and then stepping back up to tugging was a weird flex for her. So you can leave the training area, throw the toy around, then come back to the mat for the final step down 🙂
For turn and burn – Her commitment is looking really good! Both directions were looking really strong! You can add your verbals 🙂
Since she was using the only mat here, you can definitely pick it up so she doesn’t ask if she was supposed to offer getting on it (that might be part of her big opinion here – looking at then later standing next to it). Then, when switching from cookies to the toy, put the mat back down (stepping up into the arousal of the toy) so you can make the transition from the food into the toy – then release her to the thrown toy or dragging toy. Going to the toy presented right near the mat a 1:24 was definitely too hard for an instant switch (even the scrunched mat is still recognizable as a mat to get on LOL!). I think the more she sees the transitions, the easier it will be for her to regulate arousal (which eventually means the transitions will be easier so you won’t need to use the bridge :))Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
The stay video is the same video as 12/10 – let me know what you post the one from yesterday, I am excited to see it!
Looking at the parallel path video – I think she is getting the idea and has a high success rate for finding the jump, but doesn’t really see the reinforcement so that is the source of some confusion. If she has trouble seeing the food, you can throw it in a lotus ball or treat hugger. That will be big and obvious. You can also throw a toy! That will be more fun than thrown treats 🙂 Plus, a more obvious reinforcement will help solidify the marker, which will help solidify the reinforcement.
>>A few days ago she could eat Charlie bears but today she could not.>>
If she was tracking them and not wanting to eat them, it could be that she is teething and they are hard to eat, or could be that they are not that interesting in that environment.
On the rear crosses, she was interested in the treats but not really drviing to them – so you can go up in value for a session with small bits of white cheese to see if that helps. And you can also start to use the target without anything on it: tug beforehand soshe is really stimulated, making it easier to ignore the distractions of the great outdoors. The rear crosses went really well when you were moving, so definitely keep moving 🙂 Basically, you want to move as soon as she starts to move. If you wait to long like a send, she will see you on the wrong side and turn as if it was a front cross like at 1:37.
Have fun at the invitationals! It will be easy to get right back on track when you get home. Safe travels!!
Tracy
