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Hi!
Lots of really good stuff here!!!Ramping up the arousal state outside the ring – no trouble at all, and she still entered the ring with complete engagement and a pretty great Tate of arousal.
Snappy line ups on each run!That tunnelers run looked great – toy on the ground, a nice remote reinforcement practice ! Good girl! Did you have anything in your pocket?
>>You’ll get a kick out of her absolute SHOCK when her toy walked away WITH SOMEONE ELSE!!!!! After that, she had no brains at all.>>
I am glad we asked her that question! She did lose her brain – what you saw was a divided attentional state – she was unable to prioritize one thing over the other. You can literally see her looking back and forth. That is why latency to the cues was super high or she couldn’t really respond (especially when you were not moving). So you can stay in motion, simplify the sequence (it was pretty hard!) and whip out the other to a lot sooner. This is especially important if you see her struggling – change plans to something simpler and show lots of motion, because that is more likely to help her prioritize.
On runs 3 and 4, there were some handling errors on the line – try to ignore those rather than stop and fix, and rather than stop and reward with the toy. I think it is just as important to not stop and give the toy, because that reinforcement can be confusing. Yes, if everything has cone to a screeching halt and there is no way to continue -give her the toy 🙂 But if she is still moving? You can keep going 🙂
So, if something goes wrong like she runs past a jump or takes an off course line, just keep going, get her back on a line, and reward when things are going right 🙂 The off courses/ running past stuff are just handling errors of being a little late or conflicting indicators (verbals versus motion) and she isn’t experienced enough to save you yet 🙂 Fixing can be frustrating, and stopping to reward after missing obstacles can be confusing, so it is better to intensify connection, get on a line, and reward that 🙂
Really nice job here! When is her next trial?
Tracy
>>Yeah, I spent several sessions just working on me while the pups were roaming. Still couldn’t get it when I added the dog.>>
Try it with an older dog first! Adult dogs will process the cues sooner than a puppy will. A pup will take longer to process the cues, which means you have to be earlier too – that is hard, so you can try it with an adult and see how that timing feels 🙂
T
Feel free to post it, I am sure it was not awful!!! Probably just some delays as your brain was processing the new mechanics, and a puppy who was coming at you FAST lol!!
>> It seems things we learned years ago have to be exorcised.>>
That is relatable. I originally learned handing using a system where blinds were forbidden LOL! So have to learn blinds was HARD and I did a lot of walking up and down hallways, practicing them slowly and without dogs.
And the very first blind I did in competition? Nope! Didn’t work. I was late and didn’t connect enough LOL! Oops! But it all got figured out with practice and cutting myself some slack 🙂
>>ewarding across the body worked like a charm – when I got a handle on my body.>>
Yes – it is a European way of training blinds (from folks like Jenny Damm) that opens up the connection brilliantly! Then we fade out the rewarding across the body because we have ‘taught’ your shoulders how to show great connection.
T
Good morning!
>>He’s a chewer. I haven’t found anything that he doesn’t chew thoroughly, even cheese. We’ll keep trying different things.>>
Alrighty then, we will let him chew LOL!!! As he gets more experienced, he will also eat faster (and when he is done teething).
>>This weekend Ven got to “walk” in several novel places while I worked my club’s tracking test. He met lots of new people, let a terv and a beagle ride in his car without any worry or barking, learned to potty next to a freeway, watched a busy street corner, and took a short walk on a college campus. He took it all in stride.>>
Super! That is a BIG weekend and I am glad he was great! And yes – that can be exhausting for a puppy 🙂
>>Now a short video, I’m struggling with the blind cross game. Ven was tired and wasn’t into toys tonight so I decided to give him the evening off. This clip shows my struggles to get the mechanics correct. Any guidance appreciated.>>
You are doing great!!! But it gives us insight into how animals like dogs and humans need a bit of time to process mechanics as they are learning them 🙂 You were nailing the mechanics, you just needed to think about it so you were not quite blazing fast yet. However, little Ven was still going fast, so you were a little late. No worries! On the next session, throw the start cookie a little further. Start moving away as you send him to the cookie so you are further away when he eats it. And then the instant he lifts his head from eating it: do the blind. That will give you time for your brain to process the mechanics.
And my motto for this is “Practice Makes Pathways” (neural pathway) so keep playing with this, without the dogs. Learning is consolidated in our brains when we sleep, so you can walk around the house doing blinds without the dogs, then get a good sleep – and I bet you feel it is easier in the next session.
Great job here!
TracyGood morning!
>>She didn’t understand high five from a stand and we don’t have walking on two legs.
You can definitely add in trick training sessions! These are easily lured and then the dogs are like, “that is fun!”
>This went ok. I’m competing with hackberries with the pattern game. >>
She did really well here! Practicing it is great (she might not need pattern games in front of the jump at home, but a bit of rehearsal is always a good thing!).
>>The last sit was definitely slower. I knew it in real time so that was our last rep. >>
Yes, a little slower but still good. If she has one or two good reps – remember how much glucose her brain is burning through, and don’t try for more. Quality of rehearsal is more important than quantity of rehearsal!
>>This doesn’t feel like a clean loop since there will never be food after leash removal. It feels like that should be the loop. >>
I don’t work this in clean loops because it isn’t 🙂 There is nothing about agility that makes for predictable clean looping LOL! It is mainly a behavior sequence (cue then next cue then next cue) and the very nature of the game makes it pretty unpredictable. A clean loop assumes A-B-C so yes, if you consider the next cue to be the “C” consequence, then you can think of it as a loop. But that cue may or may not be an actual reinforcement for the dog, so I think of it more as a behavior sequence.
And, since the internal and external environment is so fluid in the agility context, trying to work in the exact order you will have at a trial start line can cause stress in the training stages. The trial behavior comes after the training of the different pieces. For now, the feedback from Sprite was that she needed a bit of a pattern game in front of the jump in new, challenging locations because of the looking around at the park. That is on the same arousal level as the grass eating at training – both are ways where she is trying to self-regulate and needs more help, so we put the pattern games in for a bit until her self-regulation kicks in, then the food can be faded out.
The other option is to have a two toy pattern game (something I use all the time): a toy in each hand, a ‘bite’ marker, and an ‘out’ are what is needed. Start the game with a ‘bite’, do a little tugging, get the out – when she re-engages, mark it with a ‘bite’ on the next toy. That maintains the back and forth element with strong motivators in a way that can be used in the ring too!
>>Separately work line ups with no food and the leash off already. Then, put both back in the chain of getting to the line. >>
Yes, this can all be done as part of the remote reinforcement games. And remember that she gets a say in the progression – what we might want might not be what she needs, so stay flexible. Work all the pieces and then as she matures and gets more experienced (neural pathways!) you will see a really strong toolbox emerge.
>>But, I’m sure you have a scientific arousal manipulation comment for me. >>
That is the feedback from the dog. I view all of this not as a clean loop or anything, but a series of questions for the dog: how are you feeling? What do you need? How can I help? Are you ready? The feedback from the dog will give all the answers!
I often put the pattern game *after* the volume dial for younger dogs, then flip it to before the volume dial game as they get better and better with the games and environments. But that is dog dependent and we don’t really know yet with Sprite – we are still in the practice stages and it will likely change as she builds up the games.
>>I got myself into trouble using food for the line up in the first place. Things were great until the food went away. Then, it went in the toilet and created stress and probably a negative CER for lining up.>>
It was probably just too big of a leap forward, a bit of lumping, not enough asking her for feedback on what she needs.
>> Do you wait for a pause and eye contact after a pattern game like with the arousal dial? >>
The pause in the volume dial game is just part of the observation process so we can look at what the different arousal and attentional states look like. When I am moving to the line, I don’t pause to assess because by that point, I know what to look for. Same with the pattern games: by the time we are near the ring, there has been enough rehearsal that we know what the best states look like.
About eye contact… that totally depends on the dog. I don’t wait for it for dogs that do not offer eye contact when they are in the optimized state! That is why the observation is SO important. A huge amount of dogs that are really ready to go, truly in that optimized arousal state and sustained attentional state – eye contact is NOT what is going to happen. Waiting for it can add a lot of pressure and also change the attentional and arousal states.
We dog trainers LOVE the eye contact… but for many many dogs, it is not helpful to wait for it. That is why we do so much observing of what the dog looks like and how it acts during these different states.
>>I didn’t really have a clear transition that ended the pattern and now I’ll ask for a line up. It felt and looked sloppy. How do I clean that up with my mechanics?>>
Practice makes pathways for you both. When you get the latency you want in the pattern, you can ask for the line up. Getting a leash off while all of that is going on is hard but it will feel smoother with practice (which is why I bug everyone about using the leash :))
>>I have a few local AKC trials coming up that I could enter. But, I’m really hesitant to enter Sprite even at FEO. My only options are T2B or Fast. I’d only get 32 sec with fast. I think you get 50-60 sec with T2B. I could tug on the leash, take the leash off and cue strike with the toy. But…not sure it’s in her best interest. Plus, the toy can’t leave your hand which is a silly rule.>>
I think it is GREAT to enter her FEO – bearing in mind that you can be at a different point in the progression at a trial than you are in training, you can totally go into the much more challenging trial environment and do a “just like home” FEO run. That makes the trial environment a super fun, more relaxed place to be, before the harder skills are brought in.
>> I could tug on the leash, take the leash off and cue strike with the toy.>>
Yes! And then maybe play a little tug-demand the jump with a sit – tug and then after a sit, you can release to a jump. Fun fun fun! No pressure, all good times 🙂 The early stages of trialing are NOT about putting the hard pieces in, they are more about “wow, this ring is a GREAT place to be!!” And your stress will be reduced if you are going in there to play fun games with a toy.
Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
Yes, she is telling us she is not quite ready for Empty Hands yet – remote reinforcement is going to help that.
>> which works about 80% of the time.>>
80% is a shade too low – ideally, she is closer to 95% and also never takes off to chase squirrels.
>>I’ll show you the other games we play too but she never leaves me for squirrels when I have food on me. She loves all those games. I’ll keep on working remote reinforcement and show our progress.
And that is why I am emphasizing the RR games. When yummy food is visible and present, she is doing well. As soon as you try to run courses without the food present (or move away from the rear station) she has questions – so we will break it down and answer those questions 🙂
Tracy
Good morning and welcome! It sounds like Pepper did GREAT at the trial! Yay!!!!
This is a great question and totally NOT beyond the scope of the class. We have a live chat tonight and I think I will add it to the agenda!!
>>Although we’ve done a LOT of control unleashed classes, being out in the world, exposure to agility and nosework trials, we did have a situation where we were walking by a ring and a border collie charged at Pepper because the owner did not have the leash on the dog exiting the ring (against the rules but it appeared an accident because the gate didn’t have an exit fence). >>
That is a resilience moment, meaning getting the physiological bounce-back after something unexpected happens. I am sure she was startled and not being able to eat/play near the ring is part of that (I mean, do you blame her? LOL!!) So, in her body, her HPA axis was stimulated and she had all sorts of hormones, etc being pumped out at a higher rate (like cortisol).
Moving further away was great! And what also helps with resilience to reset the baseline is decompression: some of the basic back-and-forth pattern games with tossed treats, a snuffle mat, long sniffy walks… that all really helps! And if something bad happens, try to do that before she goes to sleep so you can help reset things before they get cemented during sleep. In the moment I might to tricks or tugging, but afterwards I will go for more olfaction stuff because that is better for resetting the HPA axis.
And yes, I am sure it will happen again, sadly! So don’t be afraid to speak up – it doesn’t matter to me if the dog accidentally left the ring or not. The dog charged at your dog in an aggression enough manner to freak your dog out. You can be very straight and polite and ask: “what will be done differently do that this dog does not aggress at my dog or other dogs again, ever?”
We all tend to say “ok, it is fine” but it really isn’t! So I am definitely speaking up more and am pretty direct about it now. That will mean that THOSE folks can be more vigilant and your dog is safer 🙂
Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>>I hope I didn’t screw her up.
You did not screw her up! You asked for feedback from her by bringing her into the ring, and she gave great feedback.
>>We’ve run in front of the people before, but I think the barking dogs really put her over the edge and she freaked.>>
Yes, that could be a big part! If there was barking and maybe even staring, that is a LOT of pressure and Viszlas are NOT a fan of that type of pressure (most dogs are not a fan of that either!)
>>She could work the games and find my face, but not as strongly as usual. She could not tug.>>
Great info from her! So you are looking for the pattern games to be almost as great as they are at home – use SUPER high value food. Not being able to tug is good info, so you can use high value food and do the volume dial game with that – if she can do her tricks, then you can move into the ring and start further from the crowd. But if she is slower or stickier with her patterns or tricks, then she is not ready to run sequences up close in front of a group.
>>I should continue to focus on games on the road any chance I get. Be patience and slowly integrate with equipment and distractions.>>
Yes – high success with high value reinforcement in different places! And patience – we are building neural pathways which take practice and also get cemented during sleep! We often see some results pretty quickly and then the rest of the results fall into place over time. She is on the right track!
Tracy
Good morning!
>>Hopefully more video today. I’ve been busy getting ready to go to the Open so poor Vinny hasn’t gotten much attention.>>
This is totally relatable! Sorry Vinny!!
>> My friend Norm took him around the AWC course in segments last week and he ran beautifully for him. I can see how my anxiety plays a role in his arousal >>
While yes, I think they can smell/process OUR state changes and that can play a role in their states… there is also some interesting science out there about how arousal states change when a different person works with a dog, versus THE MOMMA! For example, I think it is Emory U that did a study using fMRI and could see the dogs’ brains lighting up very differently when it was a different person versus their beloved human.
Anecdotally, I see this over and over. The association with the owner changes arousal state, so a stranger like me can take a dog and make things look genius (once or twice) because the dog is a little under-aroused. But it doesn’t hold up long and we want the dogs working with the owners.
.
>>Question about his arousal around my dogs. He can get so excited that he will go after one of them. Usually it’s Marky because they play together outside running and chasing each other in high excitement. >>>>They don’t wrestle in the runs but for some reason yesterday Vinny went after Gibbs. I immediately yelled at him to stop and he did. I know it’s excitement and not meanness. He’s easy to stop now. >>
Easy to stop is good! It is a rehearsal of over-arousal and lack of self regulation that we don’t want his body doing (practice makes pathways even if it is not desirable behavior). So it is REALLY important to stop the rehearsal of this so he doesn’t get over-aroused. I am sure the other dogs will appreciate that!
Stopping the rehearsal might mean limiting the the amount of free play time and stopping to take breaks – set a timer and after 1 minute, they are done playing and they can all go chew a bone or sniff for cookies or something.
You can also give him an incompatible, alternate behavior such as “you must carry a toy if you are running with the other dogs”. No exceptions! It is easy enough to teach (“here if your toy, go for a run”) and if he drops the toy, you stop all the running and ask him to go get his toy. He will quickly associate holding the toy with the fun!
I have the “you must have a toy in your mouth” rule for the baby whippet so he can self-regulate his chase behavior (works like a charm, he is great now!) and I also have it for the dogs that are fast enough to keep up (sorta) when he runs, so they don’t try to mouth him at top speed and accidentally rip his skin. At this point, when he feels his arousal coming up, he goes and finds a toy (or sometimes a shoe LOL!) and puts it in his mouth. It has been great for household peace!
>>I never try and play with them all together because they will start fighting unless we’re out in the open field behind the house. >>
Yep, arousal management for the group is a definite! Not playing with them all together is good management, but the dog trainer mantra is “Management always fails” so you will want to have trained behavior in place just in case they all get out at the same time in a small space. I use a combination of “toy-in-mouth” and a solid ‘lie down’ for the herding dogs to maintain calmness 🙂
Plus, I think getting this going at home (arousal self-regulation) will bubble over into training and sports REALLY well because you have built the neural pathways you want, rather than trying to build them in sports training. If he is building neural pathways for behaviors we don’t want, then the sports training becomes so much harder. A common situation I see is fence fighting: dogs that fence fight at home are getting lots of practice running a fence line and barking at other dogs in a high arousal manner. Practice makes pathways! So we then see it in dog sports – they are in the ring and a dog walks by outside the ring… so they go fence fight through the ring gating. Neural pathways! And to fix that behavior, we fix it at home first and then take it to trials. So, fixing this at home will go a long way to getting more relaxed outside the ring behavior at trials too!
>> Although all 5 of them get along he has not endeared himself to all of them. They all keep one eye open when he’s around >>
That could be part of why rumbles break out sometimes – a bit of heightened awareness and stress when they are together. So definitely add in some rules about “you must carry something” as well as LOTS of hanging out on cots while other dogs play. That can give everyone a ‘job’ and more structure during the more arousing times of day.
Let me know what you think! Safe travels to FL!
TracyGood morning Ken and Skeeter!
These videos are marked private – can you set them to unlisted when you get a moment? I am looking forward to seeing them!
Tracy
Good morning!
The toy warm up before the prop sending was great – both for getting her pumped up to play, and getting her looking forward to a thing 🙂
You can reward her for near-ish to the prop when she is turning left (which seems a little harder). She also had trouble when you stopped moving and just sent… so reward that for going near it (and if she goes to 2 failures, total, move closer). Try to hold that send position so she can commit to something past your decel. Yo were continuing to rotate a bit like a post turn, so she was not entirely sure if she should keep moving with the line or hit the prop.
If she has trouble with the sending and you standing still, you can mix in some reps of you tossing the reward out to the prop rather than always having it back on your hand. That can help support the drive to it even when you are stationary.
She did really well with the two toys! Both toys are fun and she had trouble leaving the one in your left hand in particular. You can add in letting her offer more: the toy she has goes dead but don’t bring the other one ‘alive’ until she leaves the first toy and takes a step to the 2nd toy 🙂
I like the bigger cone there for her to go around (it was easy for her). The smaller blue cone might not even register on her radar LOL!
When you get back from the Open, we will get you sitting on something (like an inflatable or stool or something) so we can start moving towards doing this with you standing.
The hand target is going well! Great job getting the concept going with just the hand touch, then moving it to the post its 🙂
She quickly figured out the cookie situation here and wanted to watch the cookies while targeting. So, we can get her looking at the target more: as she is approaching you, extend the magic post it hand all the way away from your side, elbow locked so she goes the full length of your arm away. And, looking at it as you extend your arm will help Then when she hits it (or goes towards at first), toss the cookie way away, so she doesn’t look at the magic cookie hand 🙂
To be able to extend your arm fully, my guess is it will be easier to be sitting the whole time, which is great for now! No need to get standing soon on this one.
Great job! Have a safe trip and see you in FL!!
Tracy
Good morning!
>>Well, you changed my mind about the reward zone, especially with the argument about what is better for the dog and their body. We’ll rework things — he is a quick and smart boy.>>
As the sport evolves, we make this little adjustments to build in these skills earlier. This MaxPup class has more of an emphasis on distance, parallel lines, and even a bit of layering! Eek!! But, that is where the sport is going and it is all really fun.
>>the struggle is real with his tendency to literally leap in the air and grab whatever is in front (me, Skye …). >>
Yep, puppies 🙂 “My flesh is not a toy” was a common phrase with my whippet puppy LOL! They just need an outlet for all of their energy and when in doubt, they often use their mouth.
>>Having a toy on me in all high arousal states is becoming a must but even if I have it,
Put a name to the behavior when he is not over-stimulated. I say “get your toy” which means “you need something in your mouth or you will not be moving forward with your plan for the day” LOL!! So he will learn to just carry something as an outlet, and pretty soon he will look for it on his own: arousal self-regulation in action! Yay!
>>he still ignores the toy and grabs me sometimes (if that happens all play stops). He’s never put a hole in anyone, but still – ouch!>>
Yep, he is not being aggressive, just an over-aroused dude. If it happens in training where he disengages from a toy and grabs you instead, you can stop the game. And in that moment of stopping, do a mental review of if he had errors and he might be frustrated (puppies will often get mouthy when frustrated) or if the session went too long (they can get mouthy even on the most perfect of sessions, if it is too long or repetitive). I like to keep my sessions to 2 minutes or less, including the tugging, so I can be finished and get the pup to decompress and play or run around, before they get over-aroused and maybe use me as a chew toy LOL!
You are doing awesome with him!!! Keep me posted!
TracyHello and welcome to you and Jamothy, Jamioca, JimmyBean, PB&Jam, and all of his other nicknames 🙂 I am excited to learn more about him!!!!
I personally LOVE it when Border Collies come with high food interest, because we can teach precision and engagement and arousal regulation so much more easily. FUN!!!!!!
Keep me posted!
TracyHi!
He was very excited about the bowls here! Love it! He was very happy to go back and forth between the bowls!!
>>. I had to go on one hip because of my knees, so I had to have the treats in one hand. I found it interesting that it seemed he went to the bowl on my left more quickly then the one on m right, though maybe it was because of the way I was seated.>>
Possibly! Or it could be the pressure of the ladder right there was inhibiting his movement to the bowl on your right. Or he just is turning a little better one way than the other right now – no worries, it is all normal and good.
He is very food driven, but you don’t want to go a full 3 minutes on a food only session. You can see by the end he was chilling out and beginning to offer sits. So keep the timer at 2 minutes, then you can break off for some tugging.
For the next session of this, you can move to sitting on something (low chair, fitness ball, etc). Anything that keeps you halfway between sitting on the ground and standing up will work 🙂 And repeat what you did here with you sitting. If he is happy to do it in the first minute, and is offering going back and forth between the bowls, then you can break it off for some tugging and do another minute with the upright in front of him to begin the wrapping concepts 🙂
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyMoving away from the cookies was HARD in the beginning (poor starving puppies LOL!) Good patience from you! He then had a lightbulb moment and started hitting the target. I could not see where you were looking, so be sure to look at the target (if you look at him, he is more likely to come sit in front of you then offer the down when the sit doesn’t get rewarded).
As with the prop game, throwing the cookie makes a big difference and he did fewer sits and downs here because the cookie was moving more. And if he starts moving into a sit, pitch a cookie off to the side so he doesn’t settle into the sit or down.
I think tug breaks will be good here too! After every 3 or 4 cookies, break things off for a short tug party. The higher state of arousal is more likely to get more targeting.
And try to end the session while he is still standing up and targeting. On this session and the previous session, you ended it with him in a down where he has stopped offering other behavior. So, shorter sessions with more moving rewards will really help direct him to the targets.
Nice work!
Tracy
