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Hi!
Thanks for posting this!! She seemed totally surprised by the BF leaving and then yes, I agree that it was alarm barking.You brought her back really quickly with the pattern game , took about 20 seconds or so before she was able to stop being very concerned about it (exactly what I would have done with my own dogs and suggested for her). She was still a little in a divided attentional state for a bit and then by the end she was more in the selective state where her brain was still aware of the distraction but she was able to engage with you. To be able to get her back to a good state for working… try tugging! I know it might seem counterintuitive because it will probably change her arousal state, but that change might optimize her arousal state and get her brain to forget the distraction 🙂 A combination of tugging and treats as you bring her back into a working session can help a lot.
>As far as noise, I think the video enhances certain sounds.
So it’s the tiny little noise (and somewhat intermittent/sudden noise) predicting movement that she’s picking up on.>I terms of processing… each little noise adds up and I think she gets to a level where she has to stop and actively process it (especially if there are bird noises!) So the music by itself was not a distraction, it is more of the ‘all of the above’ causing her bandwidth for processing all the sensory input to get used up. She definitely heard all the noises (she was lifting her head to listen) and her ears are better than mine LOL!! If the camera picked it up, so did her ears 🙂 So since processing bandwidth is limited and you want her brain to prioritize info you are giving her, dialing back some of the sensory input can be useful for now.
Eventually she will habituate to a lot of the noise stuff (including birds :)) but she is still young so we can help open up more room in her brain’s bandwidth (processing is another area of amazing nerding opportunities, and I am sure you have seen it in your rehab & fitness practice – stuff like how pain changes processing even if the dogs are not showing outwards signs of pain like limping).
>And as far as markers, yeah I had always thought they used context as well. >
I think the dogs are 2 or 3 steps ahead of us humans, in terms of understanding context and reading context cues.
>Sort of like when I do fitness training, I don’t generally say much at all by way of markers and my dogs still somehow figure out when I want them to stay in place and when they should follow the lure no problem. >
Exactly!! And how do my dogs know the difference between my clumsy attempts at fitness stuff (they are SO PATIENT with me, cause I am really terrible at it LOL) versus my agility stuff versus my flyball stuff (I am better at those lol), which can often use the same prop like a Cato plank? Because of all the context cues. And I am fine with that 🙂
>So it’s definitely freeing to be able to focus on fewer markers! I’ll have to give it some thought as to what ones to really keep since this attempt at having a bunch is just not working and is just frustrating us both.>
Yes! Frustration is communication! And if you or Beat are frustrated, we need to look at it, figure out why, and fix it 🙂
Have fun!
TracyGood morning!
>Initially I moved away and did some pattern games and she regrouped fairly quick.>
Great! Patterns are always a good option in those moments.
> The person was continuing to encourage her which was making me need pattern games lol. >
Ah, people.
>Julee left me to go run and jump off her basically so I didn’t bring her to the person per se when she started to let the hackles down.>
Because she is in that unpredictable adolescent stage, you might need to have a leash stuffed in your pocket whenever she is working off leash – that will allow you to leash her up and then be better able to control the environment by moving her away and preventing her from moving herself back to whatever she is barking at.
>And yes I had no food on me for Chata. I showed her where her cookies were and we left them to do some tricks and cues back to get her food.>
Great! So if I read it correctly – 4 reps, 3 of which were good, one of which she left on. That shows that her bandwidth for dealing with distractions without the context cue of food in your hand/pocket/mouth is relatively low. So keep doing tiny sessions that are relatively easy as you build up the mental endurance for it.
T
That’s up to you, and also might depend on what type of device you use.
Apple devices start to get angry when the threads get huge, and refuse to load them. So if you are mainly using a Mac, iPhone, iPad then you’ll probably want to start a new thread. Android mobile devices and PCs have no anger towards big threads 🙂T
Hi!
>Julee lost it. Like the person she hasn’t seen since a puppy and before we even thought about training she was on full stranger danger mode. She did recover >
What did you do to help her recover? Keep track of that and use it before she sees new people, to help her process them.
>and then was bouncing all over the person but it was conflicting not I adore you human. >
Since she had such a big response to the person, probably better to not let her get as close to the person even if she acts like she wants to. Adolescent dogs, like adolescent humans, make poor life choices LOL!!!
>I did eventually try some short cookie recalls as far from the person as I could and she was good.>
Perfect!
> One look when the person spoke. >
Add that as a slice by putting random voices on a recording or video, so she gets used to a random voice popping out of silence.
>The person was very sweet but didn’t take directions well to just exist so I had to be on like I never have before. >
Humans can be hard to train 😂🤣😂
>Chata threw me bc the session was high high success. Good foods she was offering the tricks and wanting to do stuff. Kept it to 4 reps but she did take off to pick pocket the human on the third. ( forth rep was just a recover super easy rep).>
This was a remote reinforcement session, you had nothing with you? She did well and she also showed you how she is still very tuned into what other people are doing especially if you have no food available. So definitely keep working these small pieces 🙂
T
Hi! Thanks for the info!!
>I now have him jumping 8″ with the Paps and the MaxPup Malinois. 🙂>
Is that Joan’s Judge, or Ann’s Aix? Fun!
>I’m also having the instructor put a dish down at the end of lines since he like to run to the dish. >
Great! You will get even more speed from a moving reinforcement – it can be something as simple as digging a big toy or dragging a lotus ball on a line for him to accelerate to.
>Then some of our class moved over there to do a little sequence while we did some on our side and it was perfect and not a distraction for him. Last week went well too. >
SUPER! YAY!
>I also brought out the lotus ball again. Before our break I had introduced it to him and showed him how to open it. He enjoyed chasing it in class. >
Excellent – you can totally make this a toy by attaching it to something long for him to chase more.
>Also, for starts if it’s not a tunnel then I send him to a dish with cheese in it so I can get a lead out.>
How are his stays going (or platform training)? You can get a lot of speed from a motivated release using a bit of ready-set-GO!!! Does he like to be held? If he thinks that is cool, someone can hold him so he explodes into the course.
>It’s horribly cold and it snowed so the dogs can be out for like 2 minutes until their feet freeze. They (especially him) are going nuts. We should get a break for a few days soon.>
I am ready for winter to be over!!!! Bring on green grass and sunshine!
Have fun!
TracyHi! Threadle slice is going really well, I love how she was driving right into the correct side of the jump!
My only suggestion is that you remain completely stationary (don’t move your shoulders) until she has arrived at the dish. Moving your shoulders might accidentally cause her to rely on a second cue to take the jump after coming to the correct side, which we do not want 🙂 So you can stay frozen in position and say ‘dish’ – if she needs help going to the dish, you can either have your non-treadle hand do a subtle flick of a treat into it. Or you can leave a bag of treats in the dish – so when she goes to the dish, you can run over nd open them to give her one (or two :))
Great job here!! You can keep adding in hard angles, and also add in the advanced level of comparing the threadle slice to the serpentine cues!
Tracy
Hi! My dogs also feel a bit neglected LOL!!!!
You have lifetime access to all of this – it will be available for as long as as the website exists. And if the website ever croaks (totally not in the plans!) then we will send it all to you 🙂Tracy
Good morning!
>What you said above all does make sense, it just doesn’t make it easy. >
These words are absolute TRUTH!!! Totally agree.
>Like the meltdown she had this morning when we were out working in the yard in the few minutes I had before work, and my boyfriend left the house for work, sending her into a barking frenzy. >
What type of barking frenzy? Alarm? Frustration? Excitement? Do you have video? I am curious to see.
>I totally understand it’s normal, but I was planning a low distraction session and spent two whole minutes getting her brain back instead. >
So relatable… we have a total of 3 minutes to train and we have a plan! Then it all goes sideways. Yep, so frustrating sometimes!! I feel like there should be an adolescent dog support group or therapy session LOL!
>Meltdowns aren’t her norm, I’m not super worried, but she’s had enough of them that I really question if I’m handling them right, and they are mostly about people. >
Tell me more about what exactly happens or post video, so we can sort it out.
>Terriers can have meltdowns too, but they usually save them for big important stuff, not random little things like she does!>
Yes – terrier drama is definitely different from hound drama which is also different from BC drama.
Threadle slice – I don’t think she ended up confused and I bet latent learning shows that there was plenty of learning here. There were a couple of factors at play here that made it a little harder, so you can change things to clarify it for the next session:
– bear in mind that there was a lot of noise in the environment. You can see her lifting her head to listen multiple times, and even on the video I could hear the auditory clutter her brain had to sift through. That makes it all harder to process (especially since markers are auditory). Now, most of it we cannot control when working outside, but you can take the music out of it for now as that might be one level you can make easier.
– She spent a bit of time looking for the start cookie, so that can be clearer. You can place it in a bowl to send her to it, or toss it only a towel (or use a stay if it is strong enough). That will get her driving back to the threadle even sooner.
– And don’t show any frustration if she doesn’t get it or does something else. Hound brains will order up an Uber and exit the session 🙂 if we show frustration.I think this session actually went pretty well and with a couple of days for her brain to solidify it and with a bit less auditory distraction next time, you will see her do really well!!
About the markers, here are my thoughts:
>I’m getting frustrated trying to use the different marker cues: tug is get it from my hand, toy toy is get it on the ground, but I’m crappy at using the right one, sometimes nothing comes out because I can’t remember the word, and even when I do use the right one, she doesn’t seem to have any clue what the difference is. Is it even worth continuing to have two different cues for the toy? (Plus a third, “get it” if I throw the toy)>
This is an excellent question and valid points! It is cool to have all sorts of markers… but only if the dog happily understands them 🙂 I am not convinced that the dogs actually understand all of the zillions of markers – I am more convinced that the dogs understand the context and the dogs are reading us like a Clever Hans scenario. And I don’t want to spend time ‘proofing’ a zillion markers (too boring for all involved, too much failure, I don’t see a reason for it – see more below)
And also, markers are effective only if we remember the darned things. I personally am NOT the person who has a zillion different markers. I prefer to have a smaller set of really powerful markers that I can use effectively and that I can remember (I barely remember my name on some days… LOL!!). And I can confidently say that my dogs are not confused or frustrated about reinforcement in training or competition, so while I am open to adding new things to become better at training – I am not convinced that MORE markers are the key to it.
So about the toy markers – again, we want effective markers and not just a lot of markers 🙂 And with the goal of markers to be indicating where to find the reinforcement – I do not use 2 different markers for the toy on the ground in this setup. I use “get it” for both, meaning to go grab the reinforcement out ahead, placed or thrown. And
I use get it for food in this context too. Get it is a very powerful marker and I can remember it… and they are not confused. Nor would I ever put a toy and a treat down in that same spot and ask the dog to differentiate based on the marker. It is not something I need for them to do to teach them what I want them to learn. (Also, Tug and ToyToy sound the similar at the beginning of each of them, so add that in as something her brain has to sift through while processing all of the auditory stuff she is being bombarded with) For some of my dogs, I do have a toy cue for grabbing in from my hand (“bite”) versus the general “yes” for cookies. Those dogs come in HOT for the toy so they need to know if it is the toy or the treat because I often do have both in my hands during training. That helps them avoid biting me by accident. For my dogs that do NOT come in hot for a toy, like my Papillon? I don’t have that marker for him. He doesn’t need it 🙂
So, you can decide which ones you want to keep and which ones you don’t need now (or ever :)) Less is more! You can be incredibly effective with fewer markers and good training setups – you will be more consistent (which is what strengthens the markers and you will be less frustrated too 🙂
Also, verbal directionals are reward markers too, so you don’t need both in that context 🙂
The barrel wraps to the toy went well!
>Again, I’m not sure how positive she felt about this session, does she actually understand the concept? >
I think she is actually understanding the concept really well, and that includes when the reps begin. And she as engaged and had a grand time with lots of play, so I think she felt pretty good about it. She is 50% sighthound, and if they are not feeling good about it, they will leave the session or get really really sloowwwwwwwwwwww.
You can be cleaner and quicker with transitions into the next rep once the toy is placed on the ground. She had some questions about that when things did not move into the rep very quickly, and was called back a couple of times. The pups forgive some of that lack of clarity but you did end up calling her back a lot which can get frustrating.
Basically, the start of the rep is when you toss or place the toy (according to her, and I can see her point about it). You were taking a bit of extra time to get things lined up just right and she was ready for the rep to begin based on the context cue of the tossed toy – and was reading cues for the barrel wrap.
For example, you tossed the toy at 2:10 – that is officially the beginning of the next rep. She is fully focused on getting the cue. You kept her with you as you moved into position at 2:19, all good. At 2:21 you did a small movement sideways to the barrel: boom! That’s the cue, she said. So she wrapped really well, started heading down the line… then was called back and confused. She kept offering, so you can reset and clarify for her. That can be a sit cue, or giving her a cookie while you hold her collar til you are ready, etc. Similar thing happened at 3:23 – rep had started and she went to the barrel on your side step to it. You probably didn’t notice the subtle movement to the barrel that she took as the cue 🙂
So you can delay the indicator of the start of the rep by setting things up a little differently for her: get everything ready in terms of which side you want her on, your position near the barrel, etc… then throw the toy. That way the cue for the next step can come very cleanly without anything else happening in between (and without having to call her back).
Good job getting the earlier timing on the blind! The first 2 were a little late so she didn’t see the side change. The rep at 3:46 was really good, so she totally got it. Yay!
Towards the end you changed the direction of the game and that changed the line to the toy, when she exited the pivot and you said go… the toy was not really visible on her line (the wings/bar was, and the toy was further away and a little offset). So you can do the decel/pivot in between the barrel and toy, so she still knows where it is when you finish the pivot and cue her to get it.
Since we are talking about markers – in the session, you used “go” as a marker, as well as ‘get it’ and ‘toy toy’. When the toy is on the ground and I am running towards it saying GO GO GO, then the toy is available as a reinforcement. (I cannot think of a time that I would place a toy right on a puppy’s line and accelerate towards it yelling “go” and would want the dog to ignore it. Seems rude LOL!)
I don’t need an extra marker in that context unless I am in the initial teaching stages of “go”. Get it is also fine there, but I don’t think you need both “get it” and “toy toy”. Food for thought!The setup in the town square was very clever!! You could work the skill and the leash would gently wrap the pole with her… so she couldn’t really go anywhere if you were surprised by a new person 🙂
She is doing really well with her head turns here! I agree she is a lefty – both sides went well, but the left turn reps were smoother and tighter than the right turn reps. The right turn reps will be easier with a small adjustment in mechanics:
Use an empty hand to cue the turn away, and the opposite hand to toss the treat. Having the treat in the cue hand and tossing it caused her to question if the hand movement was a cue, or a cookie too. So a slow, empty hand cue will get the head turn very fluently and the other hand can drop the treat in on the other side of the pole. You can do 3 or 4 reps on the same side/same direction, then switch hands and do a few reps on the other side to have the mechanics sorted out.
And be sure to give her a tug break after every 3 or 4 reps. She did 20 in a row here and that is a lot of wrapping! So you can do a few, tug, change sides to turn the other direction, then tug and be done 🙂
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Good morning!
>Thanks for that analysis and the reminder to JUST STOP. I went absolutely psycho.>
Ha! Yes, it is always better to choose to phone-a-friend (stop the training and post the video) than to dig a hole by going psycho LOL!!
Backside slices are going well! You can be moving before the release so he sees the motion cue more clearly (being stationary was pulling him into you. You can be walking forward the whole time and when you are maybe two steps into your forward movement along the line, release him to move as well. As you do that, it is time to differentiate the releases. Break is really always going to be a front side cue, so now the release can be his backside slice verbal. Using that a the release (plus moving before the release) will also allow you to add more lateral distance away – when he is releasing on the backside slice verbal, you can move your line further across the bar, bit by bit. Everything remains the same in t terms of your motion and release and connection, but you will just be a bit further away from the entry barrel.
>Then decided to be brave and go back to the jump threadle. Judge seems to have forgiven me.>
Ha! The dogs forgive us as long as we don’t consistently get psycho about things LOL!
The setup was great in terms of your position and the MM position, and you get a giant click treat for NOT moving.
He does not quite realize that we would very much like for him to find the bar on his own 🙂 That makes sense, based on him not being able to do it in the last session without your movement. So we will shape it: start with a couple of reps like you did here, clicking when he got to the correct side (your clicks were before he turned his head to the bar, which was perfectly fine). Then after 2 or 3 reps of success with that, you can delay the MM click one tiny heartbeat until he turns his head to the bar. He doesn’t even have to move to the bar, he just needs to turn his head to it. Get a few reps of that and then you can delay it even more so he takes that first step. It won’t take him long to send himself to the bar (as long as you don’t move :))
>Interesting – I did notice that on my left hand, he turned wider –>
Do you mean turning to his right, the first few reps? I thought those were a little wider than when he was turning to his left on the last 3 reps. But that just might have been because of the order of the session? Either way, when you start delaying the click, start on the side that feels most comfortable so it is as easy as possible.
Great job here!
Tracy
Good morning!
She did well here! Tugging harder than usual is a good indicator that there was some challenge in this setup!
You can add in a bit more to this slice – looks like it was people nearby, which is a good start. You can have them holding a toy or treats (in a neutral way). Or if there is a new dog that can just lie down and be super chill, that is good to add as a slice too!
(This is also a good opportunity to Chata to learn to ignore other people with food – first with you having food, then eventually you will not have food).Great job here!
TracyGood morning!
She is doing well with the rocking horses here! Great job adding your verbals and maintaining connection through the reps! Yo can spread them out more so you have to run a little more for the advanced level – that will make it easier for you to decelerate into the countermotion element.
Side note –
It is preferable to use barrels or cones to start because we can work through all the mechanics needed for success (rounded turns, countermotion, not touching the obstacles, etc). If you use wings, change the angles 90 degree so she is seeing the full wing – that helps with the lining up for turns.Also good job bringing the toy out – she was looking away with the food, so you can train this with a toy (and the toy in your hand). That will help with arousal regulation (gotta ignore the toy to get the toy, plus gotta commit in higher arousal). Plus you can add turn-and-burn exits of the wraps, so she can really chase you out of the session.
The remote reinforcement session went well – the trick to his is going to be keeping it as the most fun game ever with zero frustration built in. That means keeping it super simple for now and ultra clear. She is happy to move away from the treats but didn’t know where to go, so close the ring gating so she doesn’t think you want her to exit, and move towards the ring instead.
You noticed that she was jumping up/being solicitous here – I think that was a “I don’t know what you want” behavior. Arousal level for this game is naturally lower at this stage, so you didn’t get any nips or tooth hugs… but that jumping up is the beginning of tooth hugs 🙂 So we want to avoid it. You can do that by marking and returning to the treats sooner – either mark for walking away, or ask for a behavior or two quickly then mark and go back. The jumping up was when you were taking too long to mark and she was confused about what to do.
For example, at 1:45-1:50 approximately you were praising in a high pitch and she was jumping up at you. In that moment, I don’t think she knows what you and we don’t want to encourage jumping up like that… so be more “all business” and super clear about what is happening. Praise is lovely and all, but it is not clear about what is happening. She was not quite ready for duration, so take her jumping up on you as a sign of that.
Also, since this game is pretty hard, help her with hand signals for the behaviors. For example at 1:50 you said “sit” and she jumped up, backed up, jumped up, did a spin. Help her out with either giving a hand signal for the sit, or asking for something easier.
Since she is a really good communicator, you can use her jumping up (punching you in the gut on some of these LOL) as an indicator of her being unsure of what you want – and that is your cue to make it easier and raise the rate of reinforcement. It is a fine line – she likes to be petted, if I remember correctly, but soliciting it during a training session and gut punching can also be signs of confusion which tip over into nips when arousal is higher.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
First of all, thank you for posting the bloopers here!!! It really helps us sort out what is happening and how to help him out. When we get sessions where the dog has a lot of questions, I look at them from the viewpoint of: what is he seeing when he gets it right? What is he seeing when he doesn’t get it?
I have watched it a few times, and I think I have figured out what happened (hooray for video!!) I think 2 things were going on:
– He is relying on upper body movement to be cued to take the bar. You might not even realize you are doing it, but indeed you are 🙂
The first set of threadles to your right arm looked really strong (:01 – :18) and there was subtle upper body movement showing the line. Not a lot of movement… but definitely movement. A Malinois for sure sees that, they see everything 🙂
He did have big questions about the right arm threadles – not a disaster, just questions. On the first reps there… you had absolutely zero upper body movement. He did not take the bar, just went past it to the MM.
This continued through the session. For example, compare 1:13 and 1:20 (upper body movement so he went to the bar) to 1:17 (no movement, no bar).
– the MM was in a hard spot, it was easier to go past the jump to it than it was to go over the jump to it.
So what to do to help him? The first step would be to change the angle of the MM so it is much easier to see between the uprights. You can put it a few feet away like it was here, but more on a line from the center of the bump/opposite your feet. That will give him a better visual aid to turn more to look at the bar. You can also angle the jump a tiny bit: your position and the MM spot is the same, but the entry wing is further from you and the exit wing is closer to you – that will help make it easier to go to the bar and harder to go past it (less room).
And, take out all movement 🙂 I think that you *don’t*want to have a second cue on the threadle to get him to take the jump, so for now the only things that can move are your eyeballs and your MM clicker finger LOL!!
I think putting the MM in a better, more visible spot will really help. And you can ping pong the timing of the click: sometimes for getting to your threadle hand area, sometimes for going to the bar, and any spot in between.
Also, live by the 2 failure rule – if you get 2 failures (in a row or total in the sessions), you either need to change something to get success or phone-a-friend for ideas 🙂 such as sending me the video 🙂
I often stop and watch the video during the session if I am getting failures and don’t know why. And if you get another failure or two? Stop the session 🙂 No obsessing allowed! There might have been things that fit into my definition of obsessing here: continuing to work even with a lot of failures, and frustration in the voice. Sometimes we need to change something and we don’t see it til after we watch the video, sometimes we just need to stop and let latent learning work its magic.
And always reset with reinforcement and do not indicate error with change in body language – just immediately reset with reinforcement (hard to see what the reset was here because of the edits) and try again. He knew it was incorrect (no MM treats) so we don’t need additional things that indicate it was incorrect.
>Then he was getting sticky and stopping to stare at the MM. I feel like the MM is causing problems.>
The position of it was hard, but the impulse control element of it was not too hard. It was the bending to the bar without a physical cue which was hard. The sticky moments were when he went to the bar and you didn’t click… so he was not sure what to do. You don’t need to wait to click til he is past the bar, you can click the MM the instant he steps to the bar.
>I don’t feel like he has a strong dominant side that I can really tell and he does not usually have so much trouble switching sides in exercises.>
Agreed! I don’t think this was a dominant side issue, I think it was a cue issue (movement of your upper body versus no movement) and a placement of reward question.
Since circling is his default behavior when he is asking questions and he is applying that to circling the wing, you can also take out any multi-wraps. It is basically the same behavior, so we can take it out of his training routing for now 🙂 No need to reward it! His head turn wraps at the end here looked really good and are close enough to multi-wraps that you can check it off the list and skip it for now 🙂
Nice work! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Good morning!
>Baby Level I was very happy with how he fixed my late cues. Not as happy that I’m giving late cues.>
Ha! Yes, he was great, I really love the way he moves and works, what a good boy!!!! Also yes, you can do some of the cues sooner 😁
You had several reps that were right on time, for example at :19 and :48 (those were my favorites). On those reps, you did the blind basically as soon as he started moving towards you, which meant the decel was also earlier. Look at how he shifts his weight to collect at your side! Nice!!!!The other thing that will make the timing easier is if you add changes of motion: as he is eating his start cookie, you can take off running – then as he takes his first step towards you, do the blind. Then as soon as you finish the blind, start the decel. It will feel early, perhaps, but based on how he moves and his speed already – I think that will simulate the timing you will need when he is jumping for real.
You can also move to the next step of this game, which involves starting with a barrel wrap (it its the Handling Combos). And it has lots of challenges for us handlers to be able to get all the cues in on time 🙂
Great job!!!
Tracy
Good morning!
When the course is over, you have lifetime access to the content. You can either come to the website for it, or download the PDFs which contain live links to the demos/explanations.
Have fun!
Tracy
