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Good morning!
>Also not sure if I’m rewarding correctly.>
Yes, the rewards looked good! Nice!!!
Starting from a wing wrap works great, and she also liked starting from the tunnel 🙂
She doesn’t always go to the backside and it is because the cues can be clearer to commit her. You can add a lot more connection and parallel line running and less arm pointing 🙂 What was happening was your arm extended and reaching for the backside… but that pulled your shoulders and feet forward so the rest of the body said front side. And you were pulling away to the exit before she was committing to the backside, so she would pick up a line to the front on those reps. So to get her to go to the backside more consistently, use your dog side arm to follow the line of her nose: have it pointing to her nose the whole time and not ahead of her to the wing. That will keep your shoulders facing the backside line. And you can move forward on a parallel line more until she reaches the backside commitment plane – then you can peel away or use countermotion past the exit wing. That should really bring up her consistency with knowing to go to the backside.
Nice work here!
TracyGood morning!
Super nice job working through the challenges here!Looking at the landing spot of 3 as you pushed through to the blind made a big difference for him!
On the threadle – this was definitely smoother too! Watching your motion – you didn’t pull away as far as the previous session but you still pulled away then pushed back to the jump. I think that it is caused by using the opposite arm for your threadle slice cue. It is closing your shoulders which blocks connection, so I think you might be subconsciously compensating with a bit of pull-push motion. You can play with using the dog side arm swinging back, which keeps your shoulders very open to him and then you can keep moving forward.
The in in threadle wrap went well!!! The blind cross exit worked well too, putting you way ahead on the next line.
On the backside wrap at 1:40 – on the very first rep, you had lots of countermotion to move away (yay!) but you were looking at him o he came with you. You had a clearer indication of the landing spot as you moved away at 2:15 and he did well! That, plus playing the games where we deliberately disconnect and throw reward to the landing spot will help solidify that skill so you can move away like you want to at 1:40.
>I think if I work on us both learning the verbal as you suggest it will really help.>
Also yes! With the specific verbal, he will have a clearer picture of exactly what to do which should totally help.
>I just have to work it myself so I don’t forget to use my words!>
The walk through stuff will make it automatic. It feels awkward at first and takes practice to lock it in… but it makes a massive difference especially in staying connected and spitting out all the verbals 🙂
Great job!
TracyHi!
The discriminations are off to a strong start! The pups did well here but I think we can break it down more to help them out.With both dogs, if you are not moving: it will work better to start with holding the collar so they don’t move before they have a chance to process the verbal – there are more mistakes hen they move as soon as they hear things. Holding them til they hear the cues a few times will help.
Also for both of them, I think this was more of a session on how to go past a jump to find a tunnel, so you can break it down more so they are more successful. One way to do it is to start without movement, positioned at about the center of the bar of the jump, hold her collar, and start cueing the tunnel so she passes part of the jump to find it. Then you can gradually move yourself back and back until they can go find the tunnel and are passing the jump entirely (with a couple of jump cues tossed in).
Then you can add in going around the wing and walk on a neutral line. Nox & Katniss did well on the mini sequence with both the tunnel and the jump when you were moving, but you were handling a bit and not being totally neutral on your path. It helped them a lot for this first session and you can then get more and more neutral as you work the skills.
>I was trying really hard to play this game similarly to “the lazy game” so that I didn’t give her much help in terms of handling pressure>
You can also do this, but put yourself far enough ahead to get success so they are seeing that yes, they can go past an obstacle to the next one 🙂
Adding the weaves to make it a 3 way discrimination happened a bit too early in the learning here. They were like: wait, we are just figuring out a 2 way discrimination now we need to do 3 way? That is why they had a lot of frustration/barking. So when they are super successful with the 2 obstacle discrimination, you can add weave but take out one of the other obstacles – that way the weaves come in but it is still a 2 obstacle discrimination.
And when they are happy with that? You can ask for the 3 obstacles, keeping motion as neutral as possible.
Nice work here!
TracyGood morning!
I know a couple of bars came down, but I really liked this session 🙂 I am glad you didn’t stop him for the bars here – he was trying SO HARD and the bars that came down were questions about the handling cues. It might make him a bit frantic if you were telling him he was wrong when the cues were maybe not as clear as they could be 🙂 I almost never stop for bars because when I look at the video, it is almost always a handling issue causing the dog to ask a question. And sometimes the dog just slips, which I don’t get mad about.
On the first couple of reps, you were running fast but not as connected, so when you pointed forward at :03 he couldn’t see the connection as well and had to al the question over the bar (bar cam down). On the other reps, you were very clear and connected, no arm pointing needed…. He was lovely 🙂 Good boy!!
He gave great info about his needs for the pinwheel jump – the verbal and shoulder turn were not enough to get as much collection as he needs there, so he went really long on that jump (bar down there too). So as he is landing from jump 3 (jump after the tunnel), you can be cueing the pinwheel jumps with both hands (brake arms) and a quiet collection cue. I think you are saying “whoa” but it is loud and there is a lot of motion, which sends him long over the pinwheel jump. The quiet verbal plus the brake arms will get a bit of collection as you move into the wrap.
On the wrap – try not to get past the takeoff side of the jump, because it changes his line – if you go past the jump like at :20, he thinks he is jumping longer and then he pulled the rail trying to adjust.
At :07 and especially at :33, you were not as far past so he was really lovely on those turns (bar stayed up!) You can add more decel so you don’t end up past the takeoff side.On the last run (which was great) it looks like you were running a little slower but very connected and giving the cues earlier… that was HUGELY helpful for him! Since he is so fast, you don’t need to try to also go really fast. You role can be to steer the sports car 🙂 which means timely cues and not rushing, so he can really see the connection.
Great job here!
Tracy
Good morning!
The countermotion game is going well!
Looking at the slices: He is committing to the jump nicely after arriving on the backside of it! You can add in getting further from the entry wing of the backside to cue it – you were right at the entry wing, so you can start moving over to run more towards the center of the bar (and eventually to the exit wing). That will set up even more countermotion opportunities because you will be able to get forward past the exit wing and do a blind as he is arriving at the takeoff side. And since it is harder, definitely throw the toy as soon as he commits to going to the backside.
Wraps were a little harder – you were throwing the reward a little late, as if waiting to see him take the jump but you can throw as soon as he is arriving at the backside wing. That will solidify the skill because that countermotion was harder for him and sometimes he gets it (like the last rep) sometimes he follows your motion and doesn’t take it (2nd to last rep).
The other thing to consider here is using two different verbals, rather than a compound verbal for the wrap. You had push as the main verbal for both the slice and wrap. So that is the first info he will process – adding around to the wrap ends up being late, plus if it is repeated (push around push around) it is harder to know if it is a slice or wrap. And at the end you were saying pushpushpush as he approached the bar without the around. So I don’t think he is confused… I think he is ignoring the verbals because they aren’t really clear, so he is waiting for body language. I know people out there recommend compound verbals like a backside cue followed by a wrap cue, but the dogs respond better to distinct verbals for two very different behaviors.
I think of it as like sit and down – two different behaviors. If the dog is asked to “sit down”… which is it? At first they are confused then they just start to ignore the verbals and guess based on context cues 🙂 A compound verbal is like saying “sit down” 🙂 Food for thought!
Nice job on the course, lots of fast lines and only a couple of questions! Looking at the questions because you said you wanted to run it again before it got hot:
His first question was on the German turn on 3 – it is a countermotion spot like we are working on the obstacle skills games. For now, look at the landing post as you move through the countermotion to help him – you were pointing at landing but looking at him on both runs so he was looking at you (and you can throw the rewards to landing as you move through, like in the skills game too!
The other big question was on the threadle slice at 7 – you were pulling away to use motion to help get the correct side of 7, but then moving back to 7 and cueing it set the line to the 18 tunnel. He almost took the 18 tunnel on run 1 and confidently took it on run 2. So for the threadle, reverse your line of motion: rather than pulling away fro 7 and pushing back to it, as you threadle you can be going towards 7 (using a big threadle arm pulling back and rotating your upper body towards him, rather than closing forward). Then when he is approaching the 7 jump, you can be moving away to 8 and calling him which should take his eyes off the line to the tunnel.
You can also look at landing as you move forward on the circle wrap on jump 14 – he is still learning the countermotion there, so looking at landing (and throwing the reward back there) will support the line on the coursework.
I will mention again that it is the same verbal for different behaviors (jump 3 and jump 14) so it is possible the extra looking at you is to see the physical cues because the verbals are not helping 🙂
Everything else looks lovely, don’t change it 🙂 Especially that super nice ending line!!!
Nice work here! Stay cool!
Tracy
Hi!
>It’s also very wet and like 92% humidity which doesn’t help and he gets wet and it slows him down>
This has been a TERRIBLE summer for heat, humidity, and storms! Ewwwww!!!
Looking at the video:
>I have noticed Max pattern so once he gets in his mind that this means this, he’ll keep doing it until I really can break that somehow.>
I didn’t see any of there here 🙂 He was responding correctly to every cue! So if you think he is patterned and not listening, stop and look at the video and you will see that he is listening 🙂
The GO cue looked great on all the reps!
Wraps are also looking good! You can decel sooner to get a tighter turn – you can start the decel as soon as he is taking off for the jump before the wrap jump. Your decel began when he was landing (like at 2:12) so he was a little wide. Starting it sooner will get it even tighter!
For RCs –
>Max and I struggled a little bit on the rear crosses.>
Only a little, there were plenty of good RCs here!
It is all about getting on the RC line pretty aggressively!
You can be driving the RC line (running to the center of the bar) as soon as you pass the previous jump and even before he passes you. This is what you did at 1:05 and 1:38 and it worked great! Compare 2:30 to where you got on the RC line late and he didn’t see it til after he took off, versus 2:38 where you got right on the line and it was fantastic!
(Also, maybe my sound is weird but it sounds like you were saying left and it was a right turn? )
Push cues at 1:12 and 146 and 2:48 were great !! Super!
He did miss the tunnel at 2:18 – you said tunnel but took off without connection, so he came with you. He was paying attention, good boy!!
>Of a backside throttle where the dog is between you and a jump and he needs to go to the backside and wrap it. I couldn’t really figure out what I was doing with my arms because he was a good 5 feet in front of me. We just had the worst time getting it. I don’t know if you have any tips.>
The key is really to turn to the line parallel to the one he will be on to get to the backside, and use low hands to kind of pull him off the front and then flip him away to the back (if he needs help to flip away). If he was ahead of you and going to the front, I would bet your feet were pointing to the front. Try to grab video at the next class and we can see for sure! Or if you have video, post it and we can figure it out.
Great job here!
Tracy
Hi!
This was a super nice run and you totally supported her!The opening was FANTASTIC.
After the second tunnel, it looks like yes, a tiny disconnect. I think the connection was harder there because she was on a jumping line towards the crowd, so her brain was a little split about what to attend to.
I think the same thing happened at :38 where she went around the jump – probably because it was hard to jump right towards the crowd there!!
I chalk that all up to baby dog lack of experience. You handled it really well – kept going, increased connection, etc. And ended well! So the more experience she gets in this environment, the more the runs will be amazing from start to finish like the opening was!!
You don’t need to change anything for tomorrow: you are in the ‘giving her experience’ stage so be as connected as you can to support the lines and run fast like you did here too!
Great job!
Tracy
>So if you look at commands according to which wing dog wraps. Do you use same command if dog wraps same wing regardless if you are on dog left or right?
If I understand you correctly, yes for many of them such as the wrap directionals, left/right, GO, etc. Those are all the dog’s left and right, not mine, and it doesn’t matter where I am.
>Or do you use different commands for your position relative to dog also?>>
There are some of those: my ‘switch’ cue for turning away then layering is relative to my position. The ‘get out’ cue is also relative to my position. The threadle cues and backside push cues are also somewhat relative to position, so they know where to put themselves relative to the jump.
Here is a list of almost all of the verbals to consider:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jUcpOWAJZVdfatow31w5rqS8-2FX0zCfRZX9zqTA-oQ/edit?usp=sharingHave fun!
Tracy
Hi!
Because she is still learning it, she needs more motion support:
Drive more to the center of the bar as you are giving the verbal and arm cues. This will help your feet point to the correct line too (to the backside entry wing).On the first couple of reps you were not moving much, so the backside cues were not as clear.
At :10 when you started from the tunnel and had more motion: lovely! At :16 she got it with you all the way across the bar! You can throw the reward earlier there so she looks at the bar as you move forward.
On the reps a :21 and towards the end when you got the front of the jump, you were walking and your feet were pointing to the front side of the bar.
Even a little extra motion at :25 and :29 helped here get it. I don’t think you need to be as far across the bar yet – you can be running a bit more towards the bar as that will really support the backside and you’ll also be able to easily get pat the exit wing.
After the balance rep, the backside cues were not as clear: you were moving less and your feet were pointing to the front of the bar. On the last rep, your feet were pointing to the backside wing and she got it. Super!
So the main things are to keep running and to be putting pressure towards the backside entry wing. This can be running more towards the center of the bar with your feet pointing to the backside wing.
Nice work here!
Tracy
Hi!
He was good boy on the teeter! He was like WHOA THIS THING MOVES but continued to work the board, which is great! Keep session like this with super high value rewards until he doesn’t care about the movement. Also, you can add in moving alongside the board with him (probably starting without tip at first).
Looking at the jumping on the sequences – for now, don’t mark bars or withhold reinforcement until we get more of your motion involved. What was happening was that you were standing still or moving only a little, so he had to look at you for more info or rely on verbals… and if the verbals or the other info was less, he was trying to adjust over the bar and sometimes hit the bar.
So intead of being relatively stationary…. Add some running! Motion is the most important cue, so the more you move (or decel into a turn) the easier it will be for him to keep bars up 🙂
In this setup, you can run more into the tunnel so when he is exiting, he sees you running up the next line. That will challenge you to stay connect, give timely motion info, and say the verbals, all while running 🙂 Wheeeee! I think it will all come together really well!
Nice work here!
Tracy
Hi!
She most definitely thinks it was MOST AWESOME FUN!! Yay! I am very excited for your future with her!
Well done on being connected to her on all of these. It is looking pretty automatic nowadays!!
>But probably good practice for what it’s going to feel like when she’s running faster and jumping full height.>
Good point – things will feel rushed at first until you really lock in the timing and connection.
On the video:
The circles at the beginning looked fabulous!
>The front crosses all probably were a little late as the turns weren’t super. >
Yes – on the left wraps, you were a little late and your decel can have more drama (really hit the brakes facing the jump). And the decel can start at liftoff to the middle jump, not landing.
I also think you’ll see more of a collection when the bar is a little taller!
On the right turn wraps:
Wrap to the right at 1:49 was very late, she was already organizing her takeoff when you started the cues. The next rep at 2:10 was a little late. The main thing here was you didn’t have decel on this side – you were getting to the wing and rotating. So remember to watch her approach the middle jump, decel as she is taking off, then rotateLooking at the blind:
>Struggled most with the tight wrap after the blind as she kept wanting to turn the wrong way. First time I thought I just didn’t have enough exit line connection after the blind, so tried to fix that on the second, but still turned the wrong way>
It was not a connection thing, but that is always a good place to problem solve!
>Then tried just sending her to the tight wrap with that angle of approach, rewarded and then she was able to get it. Might have never really sent her to a wrap from that shallow of an angle?>
Nope 🙂 And her getting it on the last run was because you handled differently, not because you showed it to you. She read you perfectly on all reps.
The main issue was a domino effect caused by you over-helping her find jump 3 (after the tunnel).
She turned on a new gear of speed for the blind cross!! So by staying close to 3 on the first couple of reps, you ended up foot racing her into the blind… so when you finished the blind, you were closer to the left wrap wing and blocking the rest of the bar, and didn’t have time to decel – you rotated immediately which were left turn cues at 2:33 and 2:52.
When you added the post turn, you were backing up into it which cued the left turn. She is really paying attention to all of your cues!
So why did she get it so nicely at 3:35, the last run? It was because you really did not help her as much at 3 – you were further ahead for the blind- so you were able to clear the line and send her to the right turn wing. Yay!
The big takeaway is that you can trust her more on the lines a long as you are connected (you were!) and that way you can get further ahead to great blind cross position.
Nice work here!
Tracy
Hi! Pop out 5 went great!
2 small details:
At :28 and 1:04 on jump 3, you can totally send him to it (no need to get right to the wing) then as soon as he passes you, move forward to the next line. He wrapped really well but slowed down because you stuck around to get the wrap, so he didn’t quite see what to do next to get the next line.
I liked how well he read the threadle wrap!!! He dropped the bar at :38 and it was because you started backing up. He didn’t drop the bar on the next rep – you backed up less, but ideally you don ’t back up at all. When you cue it, you can be stationary until he turned to begin his wrap, then move forward to the next line. The backwards steps show motion the wrong direction which is why he hit the bar on the first run.
Everything else looked great!
>I played with turning to the right at jump 3 in Pop Out 6. It was “easy” to handle, felt like quite a bit longer distance than doing it with a wrap to the left. Need to edit the video and then compare times. I think I need to time from Jump 2 to either 5 or 6 to get the whole picture on the time difference?>
Yay, I love timing things! Yes, compare the time from takeoff for the jump before the turn, to a couple of jumps down the next line (maybe to landing of 6) so you can see how the turn changes the bigger picture.
Nice work here!!
TracyHi! She did really well here!!! She is reading the lines really well – other than a “wait gotta pick up that cookie” moment or two 🤣 she really only had a few questions.
And those questions were all related to exit line connection, meaning she could not see which side of you to be on when exiting a turn.
Here are the 3 questions she had:
Exiting the wrap on 5 at :18, you had your shoulder closed to her so she had a big question about where to be exactly.
At 1:03, the blind cross still going as she is over the bar making it a little late, but the main thing was that as you finished it your dog side shoulder was a bit closed so she had a question about which side to be on.
The timing of starting the front at 1:37 was better! But she had a similar question about the exit as she did at 1:03 – that was because as you finished the FC, the dog side shoulder was closed forward.
The closed shoulder blocks connection, so she doesn’t always see which side of you to be on. Easy fix! Use exit line connection, where the dog-side arm reaches all the way back to her nose and you can exaggerate that by putting the opposite arm across your stomach which also pushes the dog-side shoulder back top open up the connection.
Here are visuals of those spots, so you can see what I mean by a closed shoulder:
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/13G9Ci1M-8y7VW6A9l6XsiIcCBCXka1kgqE5ui0jO_HY/edit?usp=sharingNice work here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Hi!
>WOW, the ISC AKC Trial I went to this past weekend had regular Masters courses with 3 backsides in them and close together. One course had a backside after a dog walk to a tunnel under the dog walk to a back side out of the tunnel to one front jump to another backside jump to an A frame. >
Fun! It is the stuff people practice vat probably are not used to seeing in trial. Were those challenges set at regular AKC distances? They are not really meant for AKC distances…
>Alonso did all his backsides but when he had to jump and turn with a wall in front of him, he knocked a bar. We also disconnected due to a pole in the way and a piece of the wall jump came down. I wasn’t quick enough with my cues for one course and he took an off-course jump. We failed 5 runs but then for the last run of the weekend we got it together and he nailed it. He was the only one to qualify in his regular 20” height class. >
Yay for Alonso!!! It sounds like he did great, even in the NQ classes.
>Mookie Q’ed in 5 out of the regular 6 runs we were in but we failed the last run of the weekend because I ran out of gas and lost focus after my great run with Alonso.>
Wow, well done to you and Mookie! Those are hard challenges to get 5 out of 6 Qs on!!
>If I hadn’t been doing camp with you all these years, I don’t think we would have done as well as we did. I always practiced all the skills but never tested them all until now >
Well you’ve certainly done your homework so it is really fun to be able to use your skills at a trial!
>Mookie nailed both of them. After the trial they were easy for Mr. Moo.>
You and Mookie are really such a smooth team now. Well done!!!
>As for Alonso, for course 1 I had set up an off-course jump right after jump 11 9 3 and he took that instead of going into the tunnel after the BS at 3 for his first run. He was fine second time through but I used close close arms so he didn’t take the off-course jump. >
That is good to know – the added arm cues got the collection he needed to get the line and not the off course!
>Course 2”: I am teaching the “close close” cue which I had taught Mookie one summer so he stays on the right path i.e. 5 to 6 and not 5 to tunnel. I need to learn how to cue faster and teach the cue that will take him off a line. I tried calling his name and it seemed to work better than the “close close” verbal. Do you have other suggestions for verbal cues?? >
One thing to consider is putting turning cues on obstacles *before* the threadle obstacles (like tunnel threadles). A directional or a strong name call on the previous jump, for example, can get him turning and into handler focus. My guess is that he didn’t process the ‘close close’ cue in time or your motion supported the incorrect line so added turn cues on the line before it will totally help.
Have fun with the rest of Package 3 and with the herding clinic!!!
Thanks for the update 🙂
Tracy
Good morning!
I am glad Enzo got to play!
Super good boy Casper on pop out 1! His feet seemed to be facing jump 2 but your position was squarely saying to take jump 1, so he did.
He read the turn at 3 really well! The dig verbal helped him and you can also use a threadle wrap verbal. In this context you could easily face him to get it. In other contexts, you might need to be facing your next line so you can keep facing forward and cue it with hands/verbal rather than turning to him.
Nice job getting the backside at 5! You can tell him about 6 sooner (as he is approaching takeoff for 5) so he doesn’t look at you.
On the 2nd pop out – nice threadle slice on 3 on the first run! You can make it look more different from the threadle wrap cues by reaching back with the dog side arm rather than pulling downwards with it – that is similar to a forward facing threadle wrap cue.
That will also help at :44 where you closed your shoulders forward and he (correctly) thought it was a serp to the other side of 3 and not a threadle, and splatted the jump trying to adjust.
You started to get further and further from 3, so he was asking questions. The line on the 1st run was correct, just needed more a bit more upper body rotation back towards him with a threadle arm extended back.
He didn’t quite use his rear at :29 for the backside wrap. He was better at 1:04 and 1:24 but still not really pushing from the rear so he was a bit wide. You can help him by cueing the backside there with 2 hands to ask for more collection. And do you remember with Enzo we had Enzo sit before taking off for this kind of wrap? That would be a good one for Casper now!!
And for the 6-7 line, brake arms to ask for a little bit of collection can smooth that out too.
>As you can see, my lead out at an angle is not very good. He understands “look” but if the angle gets too steep, then he won’t stay in the proper position. I suppose I really should go back and re-teach his stay.
> Yes, a don’t move your feet stay is easiest for this, but also him reading the line when you are facing the first jump is great like he did in pop out 1.
Nice work here!
Tracy
