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Good morning!
>>I’m sometimes not sure if a wrap verbal is correct even though I know it’s more than a right or left turn, but not technically a wrap. It’s probably dog dependent, but Sprite tends to jump long and early.
It is indeed very dog specific and definitely a bit of a grey area! I look at it in terms of what collection I would like the individual dog to produce to help set up the threadle – in this case, for Sprite, it is closer to a wrap collection. Sprite is very similar to my Hot Sauce in movement and general life philosophy (go big! go fast! Just go go go! hahaha!). And I would definitely use the wrap verbal with Hot Sauce so it is worth a try with Sprite. Things might shift as she gets more experienced, so you might not always want to use it (I don’t use it with my other youngsters, because they are currently in a “WE DO ALL THE TURNS” mode) but time will tell us and Sprite will lead the way. Either way is great as long as the communication is clear.
>> I was pleasantly surprised that she got the threadle and the back side. Yay baby girl listening while the tunnel sirens sang the song of her people!
yes, that was fabulous! She is doing so well!!!!
>>I have Cindi’s weather and it’s not cooperating. I’ll see if there’s a break in the next few days to try week three. My yard is not usable, but the park drains better. So, we shall see!>>
Take your time, no pressure, we can go til the end of March here because the weather has been terrible!
T
Good morning!
>>I need to review all my verbals and train/re-train some things to have clearer options on the course with her. I had given up some of my verbals (turn towards me & tunnel threadle) because I had gotten some feedback that confused me. But then when I didn’t have those verbals anymore, things fell apart and I just started yelling “here” to get her attention.>>
Which feedback was confusing? We can totally clarify things! There is no one-size-fits-all in agility, so we can create a system that works for you, Frankie, and Bazinga!
>>I have only trained a very old-style threadle that really only works on two jumps right next to each other. Basically it is lap turn move with the verbal of “threadle” Not very effective or what we see on course now. >>
I call it the American threadle 🙂 because it is perfect for the threadles we see on Premier courses. So keep that skill in your toolbox because it works much better for a lot of dogs than the European style threadle (no rotation) on the Premier threadles. And we can build up the European threadle too, for contexts where that tool is better.
And the verbal can be the same, because the dog’s behavior is the same: just like a sit is a sit, no matter what we are doing. But the handling to support the verbal can be different. Let me know if that makes sense 🙂
>> I really, really would like to work with you in a handling class! I have been learning so much & love your techniques and training philosophy.>>
I am glad you are enjoying it!!! It has been SO FUN watching you and the Bostons (I simply love the breed and your Bostons are particularly amazing :)) Stay tuned for the summer camp handling stuff for Frankie’s level, and also MaxPup 2 and 3 has some serious handling for the youngsters 🙂
Tracy
Good morning!
I sent you a PM but I also want to acknowledge you here as well – thank you for all of your support to your agility friends, you are providing excellent support and excellent training advice 😍
And it shows in your own training too!!!! This was a really nice session, both of you had big smiles and great teamwork throughout. My little Ramen heard you praising Fever and ran over to watch.On the first part of the video – everything went swimmingly but I think you ended up moving the wing the wrong way around the clock so at the very end (1:59), it was an odd line to the jump for you both.
Thinking of it as a clock ⏱⏰ with the wing starting at 12 and the big tree past the tunnel exit is 6, and the tree is always 6:
When he is on your left, the wing moves from 12 to 11 to 10 to 9 with you also on that side. It was moving to 1 and 2 here, which is why it felt odd.Then when he is on your right, the wing moves for 12 to 1 to 2, with you on the 1-2-3 o’clock side.
Now clock analogies make sense to this Gen X’er LOL. But let me know if your brain rejects them and needs a different analogy because your generation had better technology than mine 🙂 I think a visual analogy would help improve the field guide too, but I digress.
On the 2nd session here, you started off with a little more handling on your left to help him and he nailed finding the jump. YAY!
SO MANY good dog training moments in this video!!
Then you switched to the other side of the clock (and he pooped in joy lol). Finding the jump on the other side of the tunnel was hard – one thing that I LOVE that he did here was after an early blooper of choosing the tunnel and not the jump, he went and found the jump with no signs of frustration or deflating. I think that speaks volumes in terms of how you are building resilience and rewarding effort. In the past, he would have definitely ordered up and Uber if there was failure on hard stuff!
And when he was getting a little tired – note how he regulated himself, switched to the frizz for more excitement, and you were totally on board so you were able to keep getting good reps.
And I love how you moved the wing back to a slightly easier position towards the end, to cue the jump – he was very successful.
Brilliant! Just great training all around, and a very happy red dog 🙂
You can add more motion to this game, casual strolling down a line parallel to the tunnel (but you can still give him an extra step or two as needed to get the bigger distance sending.
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning! There is so much to consider when training young dogs 🙂
>>I decided I am over facing her with all the jumping, plus the challenges and it’s just too much for her. I’m just getting to much failure in dropped bars>>
It might be a scheduling issue: too much, all at once, not enough time between sessions/trainings to recover physically and mentally. So, what does her weekly training schedule look like? It is entirely possible that there is too much happening and she is just too fatigued to have success – which is why you are seeing an increase in failure as the week goes on.
Bearing in mind that you were gone for a while (so she potentially loses some conditioning for jumping) then this week you had 4 sessions for this class since Feb 28/march 1 through March 4. If she is also doing work for other classes, that can for sure be too much.
>>So my plan going forward is to keep the bars low and NOT increase the height during the session( no matter how tempting it will be). I will just jump her full height on her jump work and sequences that I’m sure she is very capable of. Going to try this route for a little while and see how it goes.>>
Yes, low height on any that involves learning new skills (like this class, with all the verbal processing) and height on jumping skills. But also… think of it the same way humans do things at the gym: one day is “leg” day, one day is “arms” day, etc. They don’t do full body workouts everyday, or every other day – they give the body time to recover. Same can be true for the brain in training too – a day or two between repeating sessions will make a big difference. I suggest you pull out a calendar and schedule what happen on which day, one session/type of training, with days “off” in between.
For example – I do a contacts/weaves days, then maybe sequencing the next day (not the same day) then maybe a day off, then a flyball on a different day, then back to contacts, etc. And if I have a trial, I schedule a rest day before and after. It might sound like I train less, but it is actually more efficient so progress is faster.
And don’t get me wrong… it is casually scheduled looking at the calendar, maybe one week at a time. My dogs did nothing yesterday, will do flyball today, so tomorrow probably contacts/weaves, Tuesday some sequences, Weds is a day off because I have a crazy day.
And jump work does not have to be full height – and always track the rate of success. If you see 2 failures – change something to get the success back, or end the session and do something else : )
The first video looked really good! Overall, TONS of success!!!!
Her only big question was when she went past the jump after the blind – that is handling error on a really hard skill so still reward that. Reward for effort! And definitely reward after she took her life in her own little paws to try to get it and ended up hitting the wing – ouchie!!What was happening there was that she needs to see big connection on the exit of the blind, down low to her eye. At :31 and :39 there was not a lot of connection which lined up your shoulders and feet to go past the jump. And as an inexperienced dog, she went with the motion.
Then at :51, you added connection and a big step to the jump but it was late, so she tried to adjust last minute and ended up nailing the wing. Ouch!
You gave her the ‘I am frustrated with you’ look when she as trying very very hard to get it right on a skill she doesn’t know that well and needs handling support.
So to get success on that skill, slow down your motion and slow jog through it once or twice – that gives you time to show the big connection to her eyes (which lines up your shoulders to the jump so she will see the cue for it and won’t need a step to it) and also gives her time to see the big connection before she has to make a decision about the line and jumping. When she has a lightbulb moment, you can add back speed.
On the mini sequences – she read the send to the tunnel really well! And found. The threadle on the jump after it perfectly 🙂 I think a ‘right’ verbal before she enters the tunnel to cue the exit turn will help tighten up that line too.
The only other question was at 1:34 , bar down on the last jump when you decelerated, marked, and threw the ball while she was taking off. O the last rep, you delayed that so the bar was not a problem Even on these short sequences, power through the last jump and don’t mark or throw til she has fully landed.
Speaking of powering 🙂 For the mini sequences, you can add more of your motion now, building up to running hard!
2nd video:
I really don’t think the bars are a height issue, I think the bars here were one specific issue and then fatigue later in the session. Here is more:>>Then we had lots of bars and there were only two jumps>>
Since the camera was rolling, I highly recommend looking at the video in slow motion after each dropped bar. Yes, it is a bit more time intensive but totally worth it because you will see what happened and can adjust the next rep (or stop if she looks fatigued).
She consistently drops the last bar when you decelerate, mark, and throw the ball. Doesn’t matter which height 🙂 So this is a training question, not a “Promise drops bars” question 🙂
She ticked the last bar on the first rep, then dropped it at :23, :34, 1:02 (and 1:34 on the previous video). So this is something that has to be trained separately, because we don’t want her to nail the discrimination challenges and then tell her she is wrong on a bar question that she doesn’t fully have the answer to.So for the sequences – you can remind yourself to run run run through the last jump as if there is another jump out there (great practice for trials) or even put one more wing out there – and don’t decelerate or mark or throw until she is well past the last jump.
As a separate training skill, you can take one jump and show her a more gentle variation of decelerating, talking, and throwing the toy (just big arm swings to start :)) so that she learns that she will be well-paid to ignore the strange things we handlers do LOL!!! This would definitely start on a very low bar so she can process it the way we want her to. And start it by isolating one thing – like arm flinging as if throwing the toy – rather than all the things (running, decel, mark, arm fling). It all builds back together when practiced separately.
In this video, she had bars on the threadle slice after the tunnel at :33 and :45 – it might be fatigue at this point, she had a lot of reps. It was definite fatigue at 1:01, she didn’t lift her hind end at all.
5 reps of this sequence and 11 reps on the previous video (3 of them were this sequence) so it was too much repetition – leads to physical fatigue and loss of mental focus.
For example: tap your right pinky finger on the table for 90 seconds straight. If you make it the full 90 seconds, your finger is gonna be fatigued! I never make it the full 90 seconds, my brain wanders LOL!!!
I just tried the pinky tapping and lasted 7 seconds lol. No exaggeration, 7 seconds. Ha!
Lots to consider when training young dogs!!! Things are going really well, so don’t get too locked into the spots where she has questions – these are all normal, and all things that all of my dogs do at 2 years old too!! You’re doing a great job 🙂 Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>>I’m not sure if you get a notification about responses to older posts or just that we posted in general, so I didn’t know if you’d see it.>>
The site is fabulous about sending notifications about each post and response – I am not always fabulous about finding those notifications LOL!! Human error, not tech error. LOL!
The handling challenges went GREAT!
The warms ups with the switch aways were solid. Super nice turns on the tunnel exit too! I think she is ready to see these in the sequences (Super Combos :))
When you ran the challenges:
The initial jump only and layering to the tunnel looked great – look at how independent the tunnel and backside sending are!! Your line of motion was really good with motion but no real handling “help” . Perfect! Since this was 100% lovely, you can amp it up by moving faster 🙂 Go to jogging then eventually to running 🙂 And throw in a couple of moments of running right at the tunnel to help her love that. I am loving her distance and independence on the tunnel lines here, and easily finding the backside even when you were miles away.
You can also add in some threadle slices too, to balance the backside on the jump.Great job on these!! She is definitely ready for more speed on Handling 5 and to start playing with Handling 6 (super combos).
Tracy
Hi!
>> I think it’s actually reducing her barking and angst in between reps (does that mean there is operant conditioning at play?),
Probably not operant conditioning at all (that involves choice and consequence), probably more like a neurobiological stabilization of the HPA axis (return to baseline) and some classical conditioning to a happy/relaxed emotional response and frustration reduction. There is some science that repetitive things with the mouth (like chewing) are also relaxing for the dogs.
>> but it’s hard to explain the purpose and how it’s helping to others. You have given me some language to use to help with that.>>
Perfect! The other option is to say that you are working with a behaviorist (you can cite Dr. Murphy and Bobbie Bhambree) and this is there advice to help reduce the angst and the running off to chase things – and it is working.
It is a MASSIVE head exploder when we realize that most of what we do is not operant at all – I still can barely wrap my dog trainer head around it LOL! But it also explains a whole lot of what happens with dogs (and humans :))
>>I just spent way too long reading about studies in mice and internal state conditioning and operant vs classical learning, lol.
Welcome to going down the rabbit hole of animal studies – fascinating! And there is some amazing info about reinforcement and dopamine. Dr. Murphy did a webinar about when a reward is a reward (and when it is not) and I need to watch it 3 or 4 more times because it was AMAZING and makes my head explode haha
>>Yes!! I love seeing her driving to the tunnel! It’s been such an issue for us in the past.>>
I think the next step of tunnel love conditioning will be to have you SUPER close to it with handling pressure and countermotion, etc. That seems to be where she gets some BIG MAD going too, so you can tweak any of these games to run right to the tunnel and slam on the brakes – and reward early & often 🙂 I often place the reward inside the tunnel so the dog only has to step into it to get rewarded, rather than wait for the dog to do the whole thing.
Tracy
Good morning!
I can’t believe how much bad weather you are getting hit with! EWWWWW!!!! It provides good non-running opportunities to train but dang, it would be nice to not have such bad weather. No rush on the training – I will definitely add extra weeks to this class for all the folks who are stuck with horrible weather.
Wowza, he was particularly brilliant in this session – I was really impressed with how well he could go find the tunnel when the jump was miles away and on an angle that made the jump a bit of a backside (on the first side)
Took a minute to “find” the jump on the new side but then when he sorted it out… no problems. Finding the jump on the other side of the tunnel was HARD for sure but look at him processing the verbal!!!! The ‘out’ definitely helped and he then was fine when you faded the arm cue. You can probably fade the ‘out’ verbal too as he gains more experience.
Since it looks like the mud will be around for a while, you can stick with this challenge for now – and add a line of motion. You were really good here about having your position and movement look really the same for each cue – so now you can draw a line in the mud 🙂 that you can meander along as you are cuing the jump or tunnel. That way you can add the challenge of “process the verbal while I am moving”. The line should be just parallel to the tunnel and ideally you can move just past the outer wing of the jump. Let know if that makes sense or if I need more coffee 🙂
Then when the field conditions are better, we can go back to the handling. I figure if we keep things open here til the end of March, everyone can hopefully have time to play while avoiding the bad weather.
Great job here!
TracyGood morning! Hope you didn’t get too much more snow!!
This skill is going well!
Remember that you can reward “almost” on reps, like when she almost took the tunnel on the first rep (but not quite :))She had a lot of success here, which is great – there was motion but not really handling, so she did a great job processing the verbals as an important element. Super!!! On a couple of the questions or oopsie moments, I think that she just heard the verbal after the movement started, so you can change that a little:
Since it was too slippery for the turning of the wrap starts or running, but you can replace the wrap starts with the collar holding, so she can process the verbal before you start to move, which simulates the early verbal timing of the wrap exit. That can help her be even more successful!
Great job here!! I am sure we will give extra time on this class, probably at least another week, so if the weather is bad there is no need to try to get out to train. Stay safe! Stay warm!
Tracy
Good morning!
Great news about week 1! It sounds like week 2 is going well –
>> I just couldn’t cue the turn over the jump with the BC fast enough.>>
Did they both end up in the tunneL? That blind is HARD for sure 🙂 The trick is to start it sooner than you think humanly possible LOL that way it is done before they take off. And if you were nice and early and done with the cross but they still ended up on in the tunnel – it might be that connection needs to be stronger. You can try doing it with your arms tucked into your ribs, so you can make very quick and very direct eye contact when you finish the blind. This will be particularly important for Watson, who is so small that he will need to see a very dramatic connection (maybe even dip your shoulder down to make that connection).
>> Which lead me to a question about Handling Challenge 4 Seq 2 with the Forced front cross or BC -Threadle to take the jump. I was considering stay on the wing side and cueing the jump from there instead of coming into the gap. Is this a bad idea?>>
You can definitely stay on the landing side instead of going into the gap to get it, but also you can practice going into the gap so that you have that skill in your tool box. You can et the boys up for more success by moving the jumps further from the tunnel so that can see less tunnel, and also you can ‘block’ the tunnel entry with a couple of wings or turn the tunnel entries down so it is less enticing. Let me know how it goes, and see you later!
TracyGood morning!
I hope you are past the bad weather! It has been a crazy winter. I loved the horse watching in the background 🙂I swear that every time I see Fritzi work, she has found a new gear of speed. She was SO FAST here!!!!
Starting with handling challenges 4:
The tunnel sending looks great!She read the FC beautifully at :12. You start it sooner so it is finished sooner, to tighten up her line (she was no drifting wide or looking at the tunnel, she was responding to the timing).
The blind at :23 (and again at :31) was SUPER AWESOME. Good timing, and she read the side change perfectly: tight and fast! I couldn’t hear if you were using verbals on that one, but I do recommend using a threadle-slice verbal as you finish the blind so she is 100% sure of which side of the jump you want.
Side note – because she reads the BC so well, it is definitely a better handling choice than the FC in this context for you both. It is easier for us humans to do it fast and the BC keeps you further ahead than the FC does.
The mini sequences also went really well! She was a little wide coming out of the tunnel – I think a right soft turn verbal before she goes in will help that, then switch to the ‘here’ threadle verbal when she is exiting. I think the ‘here’ before she entered was not as clear because it has something to do with jumps, so she exited kind of straight and looking for a jump. The right soft turn verbal can be more specific: turn right on the tunnel exit, then the here will make more sense to her because it applies to the jump she is on the line to.
The switch away session went well!
Switch away on the jump was easy for her 🙂 And she had no problem with the balance rep. For the tunnel exit switches, you can send her to the entry from further away so you are more visible at the exit sooner – that way she can see the hand cues before she exits. The timing of the verbal was great! She still needs a little bit of physical cue help, so being at the tunnel entry sooner will give you time to show it to her. She has great tunnel sends so it won’t be hard at all!
And she was wonderful about finding the jump and the backside after the tunnel as well! (It was smart to warm up the backside before adding it to the tunnel switch away :))Great job here! You can definitely start the switch away sequences (Handling 5) and then that all works into the Super Combos 🙂
Have fun!
TracyGood morning!
>>Yes, this is still a big issue for my fast twitch girlie lol!!! I will try the toy in hand. Sometimes, we fair worse with the toy in hand though, because she then tends to look at me right as she is flying over and drops her feet. She’s looking for the throw. Might need to do the hide in the pants trick for the toy.
You can totally have the toy in a pocket – we want success and then eventually running with a toy in hand will be something to add back in. For example, I can run with a toy in my hand for CB, no problem, at home. But it is too stimulating when I am doing NFC at a trial, so I stick it in a pocket.
>>She does the same thing in trials sometimes with the last bar! She was excited here since we had not practiced for so long! She gave me her trial jumping behavior! Which was great!>>
Yes, it is good when that happens! For the last jump – can you get her to target to her leash or the leash bucket, or run to the fence? that will keep her going and help with the bar.
>>We are still working on the jumping classes. They including adding in all these distractions. I just need her fast twitch muscles to be a little less responsive or maybe just more thoughtful 😂😂😂!!!>>
Yay! She is only just 2, she will sort it out – so many elements to jumping skills with super fast dogs like Promise!!!
T
Good morning!
Super nice session here and he seemed PUMPED UP for these games LOL!!!The tunnel sending looks great throughout the session! Nice timing from you and nice commitment from him!
>> 1st blind is late, 2nd one is pretty good and the 3rd one (later in the video @ 1:09 ) is not quite as timely as the 2nd one but better than the first one. Is that how you see them?>>
Yes – the first blind was a little later than the others but he still read it well. The other two were great!
The verbals on the blind-to-jump either got really quiet or disappeared LOL I think there was a verbal at 1:10 but you can add and start the threadle verbal soon – when he is lifting off for the first jump, the threadle verbal can be in progress for the 2nd jump as you are finishing the blind (so it doesn’t have to be blind-then-threadle verbal, because that might make the verbal late).Mini sequence went well too! Great timing of the turn verbal! Adding the threadle verbal for the jump after the turn verbal on the tunnel worked well (he had a little question abuot which side of the jump on the first rep without the threadle verbal, but no questions when you added it). And I love how independently he took the jump on the threadle, especially on that last rep: you were connected but miles away, and he still went and took the jump. YAY!!
Great job here!!!! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>>I may have made the setup a little wonky to fit it in my space. I had to really swoop-send her to the wing so I could get into position to drive in between the jump & the tunnel.>>
I think the setup was great – lots of handling challenges!
Look at her driving away to the tunnel more independently! YAY!!At :14, she took the backside after the FC – not sure if that was what you wanted, but when she landed from the first jump she definitely can see bot sides of the next jump. And since you didn’t cue a threadle, she was a good girl to take the backside (staying on her line).
You called her at :24 but a threadle cue will be even clearerThe blind to the threadle was GREAT at :30… with the one exception that the threadle was late. That, plus her relative lack of experience with high speed jump threadles, caused her to go to the backside (lower body motion overriding upper body/verbal cues).
You were earlier at :36 (name instead of threadle verbal) and she got it nicely! Then she got it with the threadle verbal after that. Is ‘close’ or ‘here’ the threadle verbal? You were using them both for the threadle slice.
Then the mini sequences at the end looked great: she seemed to have no trouble driving away to the tunnel after all those jump-jump reps! Super!
This brings us to:
>>, I missed the nuance that some of the exercises are about the movement too.>>
Yes, and also helping us sort out what the dogs need for handling. It would be GREAT if all they needed were verbals LOL! But the physical cues are important to know – for example, specific to Frankie at this stage:
When she has to choose between pating attention to your lower body (line of motion) versus upper body/verbal, her name is incredibly helpful! You can use her name as a “heads up!” that something is coming, such as “Frankie HERE HERE HERE”. This is good to know and it helps with her verbal processing!!!Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>> I am starting a nosework class on Monday with Nox! Bobbie talked about the benefits of it for dogs with behavior issues, so we’re trying it out.>>
FUN!!! There is a lot of science that tells us that olfaction (whether in sport or life) is tremendously good for all dogs. We used to be so obsessed with the “OMG DON’T LET THEM SNIFF” but now we are smarter – thanks, science! LOL! Also, cross-training in different sports is beneficial for all the sports!!! Someday I will convince you to try flyball 🙂
>>I vote for Wednesday or Thursday for the live chat, >>
Maybe Thursday – Weds is a day-long airport adventure to pick up a puppy, if all goes well (and yes, I am insane).
Looking at the video – super nice session!!
She turned away nicely to start and then needed the extra step to the tunnel which you gave her on the 2nd rep. After that, she seemed to have a lightbulb moment and really didn’t need any more motion help in that context.
When exiting the tunnel, she also got the turn away but there was some cursing and wideness LOL!! The outside arm might help here too – you had it moving after she turned away, but you can show her the outside arm before she exits the tunnel (along with the timing of the verbal you were using) and use the outside arm to turn her away more. That way you can fade out the motion cues and she can read it using upper body and verbal, which sets up even more distance & layering. And it is also possible that the turn was to her harder direction and it will be easier going the other way. On the demo video, all the switches to the left were easy and tight for Contraband (who is a lefty for sure) and the switches to the right were wider.
Nice balance reps, no problem at all! She doesn’t seem like she would want to randomly flip away to a tunnel. And she also doesn’t seem to want to flip away to the jump after the tunnel.
Since this went so well – warm up the next session with a quick refresher of the switch on the jump and on the tunnel exit, then go into the sequences 🙂 Have fun!
Great job!
TracyGood morning!
>>He will be 3 on March 16 but he is still a baby in so many ways. I am considering auditing the Got FACE as he is def fitting the description of “the dogs with some distraction “!>>
Based on what I am being told from the behaviorist/neuroscientist who also happens to have GSPs and Weims…. 3 years old is still in the adolescent stage especially for male sporting breeds 🙂 And yes, the Got FACE class is helpful even if you don’t have any big “problems” – excellent tools for all of us!
Tracy
