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Good morning!
I am glad he is doing well with the rocking horses!
>>When you say spin do you mean what some call a reverse spin?>>
Yes – the FC-then-BC combo. You turn towards him to start the spin, and away from him to start the blind.
He was really good about coming in. For the serps! And his confusion about threadles was a positional cue question. Think of it as entry wing versus exit ing (the one closer to the MM here). The positional cue for the serp is being nearer to the exit wing. And the positional cue for the threadle is before you get to the entry wing.
For serps, you would want to be visible across between the bars & closer to the wing before you release him. You were releasing when you were in threadle position and he was getting the serp reward, which is why you had to stand still on the threadles.
Ideally for the serp, you would walk 2 more steps or so, so you don’t release him for the serp until you are closer to the exit wing.
You were really good about having the serp position visible as you started moving, then releasing, so the arm movement or foot movement was not at the same time as the release! Yay! He needs some more rewards tossed back to him so he doesn’t anticipate the serp and break the stay.
Then for the threadles – release from threadle position and move very slowly so he still sees you in threadle position at this stage (it will get easier as he gets more experienced with moving threadles).
You can do one session like that and if he is mostly correct, you can add the threadle slice verbal. That will help too!
He had a little struggle going over the bar for the threadle – you can move the MM so it is very visible of the bar and click it as soon as he gets to the correct side of the jump (the side between you and the jump :)) That will get him into the habit of looking for the bar after coming to the threadle side.
Great job here!!
TracyHi!
This session went well! She is doing a good job with those backsides and finding the bar even when you running forward without connection (as you are supposed to do LOL!!) She might need a ‘get it’ marker for when you throw the toy back even when you are running ahead, so she knows she has permission to ignore your running line 🙂When you are timing the backside cues, you can start them sooner with her. She has a big stride so you can tell her about the backside no later than takeoff of the first jump after the wing wrap. So as you see her feet getting ready to lift up for jump 1, you should already be connected and starting the a-la-la cue. That way she has already processed it when she lands and can go directly to the backside.
She was seeing the cue start just as she was landing at :03 (first video) and :04 (2nd video) so she had a little bit of a zig zag to go back out to the backside.>>I also took my eyes off Mira when I was going to do the regular line and she just went around the jump.
That was at :33 o the first video – yes, there was not a lot of regular connection but also she was probably just in ‘backside mode’ and anticipating that it would be a backside. Oopsie! That is definitely something I have seen dogs do 🙂 I didn’t see anything in the handling you did to push her to the backside by accident and then she was perfect after that, so it was one of those rare moments where the dog actually had the blooper, probably because you had been working on backsides so she was expecting it 🙂 Of all the videos and games she has done in this class, I don’t think she has made a single error til this one, so no worries 🙂 I will watch the video again later to make sure I still don’t see anything that accidentally cued the backside LOL!
Great job here!
TracyHi! You have had a stretch of bad weather and now it is crazy to see outdoors on grass in February! But it is good to be able to practice outdoors 🙂
Looking at the turn aways: I think it will feel easier if your feet are moving forward to the jump the whole time, which would mean not sending to the start wing from as far away because then you were at the turn jump with no place to move to. That meant your feet were facing her so it made the turn away a little harder for timing. And if you turned your feet too early (like at :13 on video 1) you end up pushing her off the jump because it looks like a backside cue.
The ideal line of motion would look like the line of motion you did on th e3rd video, when you started with a straight line to the jump and the little speed circle around the wings – then you were able to move forward more into the connection shift/turn away and it went well!
On the last video on the other side, you also had more motion and that made it easier 🙂
Good job shifting your connection (and catching yourself when you were looking at her the whole time LOL!) You can now start to do the connection shift sooner, which means the turn away can be sooner:
The last video gives us a great view of the line and the timing. You can start the connection shift as soon as she exits the wing before the turn jump, and then you can start the turn away cues before she arrives at the halfway point between the wing and the jump. You were doing the connection shift when she was maybe a stride from the jump, so she did get the turn but it was happening mostly on landing rather than on takeoff.Another reason to start the cues sooner is that on a bigger course it will be easier for you to cue the turn away and run the new direction, keeping you ahead of her more (which is a good thing with a speedy dog!!)
Great job here! I am looking forward to the other videos!
Tracy
Hi!
She did really well with the Minny Pinny!>>Holding her collar seemed to confuse her, but she clearly seemed to get the concept after sleeping on it.>>
I have found whippets to be the BEST at sleeping on things then coming back totally knowing them 🙂 For the next session, you can add the verbal before any cue to start moving:
line her up on your right side, so she is facing the Minny Pinny directly. Gently hold her collar and start saying your left verbal 3 or 4 times (she will be turning to her left when starting on your right side) Then let go of the collar and you can cue her to start moving (if she doesn’t already start moving when you let go). Then after the reward, repeat the process on the other side by lining her up on your left side facing the MP, holding her collar, saying your right verbal, etc.
The goal is that she hears the verbal before moving to strengthen it as a cue, and that she is facing the MP rather than turning away to start it.>> I hate that this flooring seems more slippery than I had anticipated.
It is a little slippery when she tries to go fast! I bought cheap turf rolls on Amazon that cover the floor, and that gives good grip! That is something to consider so she has a little more grip as she moves through the games.
Great job here 🙂
Tracy>> I feel like go on is a pretty strong skill. I’m thinking the collected turn exercise should be the first one to try. >>
Yes, that is a good one to start with and the “go” lines can (and should) be mixed in as balance reps.
>> I’m still unsure how the line you run for the backside with the off arm differs from the line you run to get the out with the off arm. You had us running a straight line up from the wing for both the way I understand it.
Yes, the line of motion is not all that different – it is the other cues that make it different (timing, physical cue, verbal cue). So the timing would be slightly different:
For the get out, you can start it before the dog exits the wing wrap (ideally exiting the wing wrap heading to the get out jump)
For the backside, I would start it after the dog has completed the wing wrap and is now parallel to get out bar.The physical cue with the outside arm is slightly different, to indicate the different lines because it would rotate the upper body slightly differently:
For the get out, my outside arm points to the exit wing of the get out jump. For the backside, my outside arm points to the entry wing of the backside jump.And the verbals are different too of course 🙂
>>If you have video highlighting the differences that would be great.>>
I will grab some when our weather clears – it has been a wet few days.
>>Also, on the collected turns….do you still shift your connection to the landing side after you stare them down on the incoming freight train to the jump?>>
It will depend on the dog. But the dogs that need the extreme connection for collection often do not also need the connection shift to the landing spot.
Tracy
Hi! I am happy to hear the pattern game and Find My Face game are going well!
Nice job with the tunnel session 🙂
Coming towards you was easy for him to figure out. It took him a moment to sort out moving away from you through the tunnel, but then he was able to offer it really easily and also do it on cue with the verbal. You can keep adding different angles of entry now, so he can find the tunnel from all sorts of angles.He found the threadle side (turning away) very easy when he had to turn right at the end of the session. When he had to turn to his left – that was a lot harder for him, so you can have him a lot closer to the entry when he has to turn left to get into it.
Minny Pinny is looking good! Since we think he is a righty, try to start these coordination games with him turning to his right for the first few steps so he gets the idea. Then it will be easier to get the left turns too.
You can move to the next step here, of holding his collar with him on your left, saying the right verbal 3 or 4 times then letting go so he goes around to his right. The after a few reps to the right, switch him to your right (so he is turning left) and repeat the process of adding the verbal.
Great job here!! Fingers crossed for more good weather ahead!
Tracy
Good morning!
>>I will try tossing a treat and running away with the toy today to see if I get some enthusiasm.>>
Perfect! You could even do a treat toss (might need to be a low value treat if he would have trouble going to the toy after a treat) then chase you for the big long toy, then let him have the toy and you do a FC and run the other way and toss a treat (he doesn’t have to bring the toy back, just toss the next treat as part of the game :))
>> two toy game with a 2 minute timer.
I don’t think it was a length of session issue on the previous video, it was more about the collar grabs. So a 2 minute timer is great but skip the collar grab when it comes to toy play.
>> We do collar grabs when we practice recalls. Then I either just praise & let him go or have really good treats while I hold the collar, >>
I’m sure that’s a big part of why he is soooo much better with it! So keep going with the amazing food with the collar grabbing but don’t bring the collar grab into toy play yet.
Keep me posted!!
TracyThis all sounds good – you and Paul have a house full of agility whippets! So fun! I am excited to see more whippets in the agility ring because they are terrific!!
Hi!
Yes, wing and bump for the backside so she doesn’t see it as a full jump yet – the front of the jump might have too much value, so leaving it as a semi-jump will make it easier for her to find the backside wing.T
Hi!
>>MassChaos Deborah Taylor Holt
Perfect! Great team!!!! Too bad you live so far away or we would snag you for our team!
>>Their board is a little wider – I wasn’t moving but maybe I was further back than I have been before Location was the same but definitely West was more distracted>>
Might be subtle differences? When video taping for flyball, if possible, get 2 videos: one right on the box/wall turn only, and one of the bigger picture to see your handling.
>Ah, I see, I need to think about my handling with the turn more>>
Sometimes we move too early? Or put too much pressure on? So video will tell us that.
>>He has only had the ball on the wall two sessions and he has just sniffed at it or nose touched it, no grabbing yet –
We definitely want the grabbing! Assuming he is picking it up off the ground as part of a retrieve – Before putting it on the board, put it at the base of the board, on the floor, and send him to retrieve it. And if that is fine for one or two reps – put it in on the board but also lower the board, making it as low/flat as possible so he can get on the board and grab the ball. That can help with the ‘aha!’ moment needed to transfer the understanding of grabbing the ball to the board. I will be doing that tonight in team practice so I will get some video (along with other video – it is a new board in a new location so I will probably start with an easier step in the progression)
>>Thank you! A lot of people I know focus on either flyball or agility>>
There are not a lot who do both, except down here in Region 9 where I would say at least 25% of the people who do flyball also do agility. On my team, it is closer to 40 or 50% of us do both.
Looking at the video:
>> noticed a lot of extra turns when I set him up?I’d say he enjoys the Minny Pinny game LOL!! And great job with the reward placement! He was starting without you a bit but no worries, that will go away in the next steps (see below).
You can switch sides after every rep or two – it looked like he was getting dizzy turning to the left (or looking in a mirror/reflection on the right turns LOL!!)
>>(My tight turn words are counter (I have been trying to consistently say it in a short choppy way) and right so for soft turns I am say LA and Rue both more drawn out?>>
I like the way your LA and Rue sounded! You can repeat them a bit in the next step, so it is more like Laaa Laaaaa Laaaa instead of a single La.For the next steps:
Hold his collar (or a harness is fine) so you can say the verbal 2 or 3 times… then let him go to start the MP. That will really help attach the verbal.And I think he is ready for the advanced level where there are bumps as jump bars for him to go over too!
>>Lastly, I have been struggling some with the serp/threadle exercises and (I know this is obvious now that I think about it but it didn’t click at first) I realized with both my older dogs I still do lots of arm changes with both serps and threadles, I have been debating if I should try with West the open shoulder no arm change approach – I think I can teach him the arm changes later if its not working??>>
Excellent point!!! For serps, definitely try it with just the dog-side arm back (no cross arm) because you will be able to move faster. For threadles – there is a lot of debate about threadle arms so my answer is to show him both styles. What I have seen is that the one-arm threadle works GREAT when we are in good position and doing one of those lovely, intuitive European style-threadles. However, the cross arm threadle is VERY useful for when we are doing those American threadles (like the really hard ones in AKC Premier) and/or when we are NOT in great position or behind the dog. The cross arm REALLY helps and is very easy for the dog to see especially on the harder threadles. So, he can learn both – it is pretty easy to show him the arms in different contexts and the dogs learn it really quickly 🙂
Great job here!
TracyGood morning!
>>Add to that her dislike to work ahead of me and commit to obstacles, and we have a recipe for a lot of barking and refusals! Focusing on shifting connection was very helpful, and she read my crosses a lot better than she usually does!>>
The rear cross turn away stuff went really well!! I think the most important thing to do with all of the turn away stuff, general RCs, and general lines is to make sure that all reward is placed out on the line and nowhere near you. The majority of her reinforcement here in this session and on other sessions as well is both near you and curling back in front of you – which is what she offers when things are not super clear in the handling. Her first response is to look at you and come towards you, because of the reward placement history.
So, get all rewards as far away from you as possible 🙂 We don’t want you in the picture at all when associated with where the reward lands, to shift her to focusing on the jump and on the lines. That way if you are not 10,000% connected, it won’t matter because she will stay on her line 🙂 That will help the rear crosses/turn aways too because the bar is associated with the reward, not you 🙂 (Nothing personal hahahaha) And it will help with jumping because she won’t have to split her visual processing as much, she will be looking at the bars a lot more too.
So more specifics on that, in the context of these skills:
For the turn aways/tandems on the front side of the jump: when you were perfect on the shifting connection and foot position, she nailed it every time 🙂 YAY!!! The 2 times you were not entirely perfect were at 2:07 (your feet turned away to the landing line a tiny bit too early) and at 2:57 (the connection shift to your hands was not quite as clear as the other moments). She didn’t take the jump on those, instead curling in to look at you. Sure, I could bug you about being perfect 🙂 but as a fellow agility handler, I know that perfect is impossible to maintain! And the handling got her to literally inches from the jump bar, so it would be good if she would go over the bar if we were not perfect.
So what to change? Reward placement 🙂 On all of the successful rewards, you dropped the reward back on the takeoff side and near you, so as she was getting it she was also coming in close to you and curling to face you. That is the same behavior we get when you aren’t perfect, so it makes sense that is is built from the reward placement. We can be more specific with the reward placement so that when in doubt, she goes and takes the jump: in this context, with you doing the turn away and remaining on the takeoff side, the reward should be thrown to the landing side (and you can throw it really far too so she leaves you by a mile to get it – you will still get tight turns but you’ll also have better commitment). That should encourage her to go over the jump she is near rather than default to coming close to you or curing in front of you.
We can apply the same concept to the straight line balance reps where she had trouble on the jump and on the wing (on one rep)
>>At 2:26, I’m looking at her, and she is making direct eye contact with me and not looking at her path. >>
In this moment, your connection was good but also your dog-side arm was a little closed forward so when you tried to keep turning, she looked up at you and came off the jump. So even though you could see her, she couldn’t really see the connection.
>>At 2:37, I looked a little more ahead, and she did much better. For the later reps, I was looking ahead as well. >>
I don’t think it was looking ahead as much as it was where your arm was when she was making the decision to take the jump or not. At 2:37, the arm was a little further back and she took it. But at 2:19 you were looking ahead (she didn’t take the jump there) and at 2:53 you were looking a little ahead and she didn’t stay on the line to the wing…
>>Is it possible that she is uncomfortable or confused by the eye contact and needs less direct connection, or am I doing something wrong to get this continuous head checking and eye contact back from her?>>
I don’t think your connection is direct enough to pull her off the line (you were not rotated towards her at all or hovering 🙂 ) In theory, she had enough info to commit to the jump on these – each of these moments where she came off the line she was literally inches from the jump or wing when there was perhaps a minor imperfection… She did a little better on the reps where you used verbals, but that might be incidental (but definitely keep using your verbals!)
I think the main thing is placement of reinforcement – the value on the line is created by it and so we need to shift it to the landing side of all the things, so her first impulse is not to get back to you or curl in front of you. And it might feel counterintuitive to throw the reward long and far to the other side of the jumps even on tight turns, but that will really tip the scales in favor of big commitment. Try not to have the reward be within 10 feet of you! If you can bend down and pick it up after she eats the treat because it is near you? It is too close 🙂 And that will allow you to get commitment even if things are not 10000% perfect 🙂
You can see that on the threadle wrap too – she was happy to come in to the threadle side near you each time (yay!) but had trouble turning away to the jump. Ideally, you can ‘flip’ her away with just your hand cue (eventually she won’t even need that) without rotating your feet to the jump! And reward placement gets that. So as you flip her back to the bar, you are on takeoff side and throw the reward 10 feet past her landing spot so she races away to get it after landing.
Let me know if that makes sense! I know you have done stuff like the lazy game in the past, so it should be more of a lifestyle with her 🙂 of no reward anywhere near you, to maintain the ‘look at your lines’ commitment skills.
>>Can you clarify what a circle wrap is? I was getting a bit confused about the difference between that and a threadle wrap.
Both are wraps on the backside of a jump, where the dog enters and exits on the same wing. The difference is that on a backside circle wrap, the dog is on the outside of the handler and crosses in front of her line to get to the backside of a jump (turning towards the handler). On a threadle wrap, the dog is between t he handler and the jump and has to turn away from the handler to get to the backside and keep turning away to get over the bar.
Ideally on both, the handler does *not* turn towards the bar and keeps moving forward the whole time. They are definitely trained skills, not necessarily intuitive skills.The visuals might make more sense:
Backside circle wrap:
Threadle wraps:
Let me know if that makes sense! Great job here!
TracyGood morning!
>>I don’t use a lot of arms for anything but I’m game to try and train it. I have to watch your videos again but I’m Extreme Connection I’m. It sure where to put my arm- does that sound weird>>
Arms can be useful! For most of agility we try to keep arms out of the way and that is also what you generally do 🙂 But for the more complex cues, arms can be very salient for the dogs to help with the cue. So on the extreme connection cues, I try to point my outside arm to the wing of the jump I want the dog to take. For a ‘get out’, I point to the exit wing. For a backside push, I point to the entry wing (and that is one of the ways the dog knows the difference). With both, the arm (along with the connection) helps me turn my shoulders to the line I want and also the dog is probably thinking “there she goes with that arm again, must be a cue to move away” LOL!
Video 1 looks great – REALLY clear shift to extreme connection on the 2 backside push reps, followed by disconnecting to run forward (good toy throws!) And then she had zero questions on the last rep when you used plain ol’ regular connection to get the front side.
On the 2nd video, it did look like you were exaggerating the cues even more on the less comfortable side, but she looked great on those reps too. One side is generally easier than the other!
What was happening here with your extreme connection was that you had the upper body rotation going the same way as it would with the outside arm being used. So if you can do that connection/rotation comfortably to cue the backside and she reads it really well? No need to the outside arm! The next step would be to add in the wing wrap before the 2 jumps, so you can add more speed into the line.
>>it is imperative the dog know the foundation exercise you are asking of them before putting the demands of the connection on them as well.>>
Yes, and your toy throws were really helping with that!
>>Also, I need to know how to throw a toy>>
You were good!! She was happy to grab the toy and rip it open for what I am guessing was a good cookie in it LOL!! The throws don’t need to be perfect – they just need to be back by the jump and far from you, to basically tell her “don’t look at me as I run away, keep looking at the jump”.
>>Lastly, I had to really think about regular and Exit Connection as well.>>
It all looked good! Being able to disconnect to get where you want to be will give you so much more time to reconnect with the exit line connection, especially after a blind.
Great job here!
Tracy
Hi!
>>Wondering whether to audit or handle her (she is only just over eight months or wait until you put the class on again.>>
I think you might find doing MaxPup 2 more useful than going directly to MaxPup 3 – MP 2 is for dogs her age and we build up all of the foundations that we use in MP 3. That includes adding jumping skills, proofing games, etc. Without those, MaxPup 3 will be much harder. Then when she does the MaxPup 3 games, she will be closer to a year old and that will be perfect for starting contacts, sequences, etc.
>>When are you likely to rerun max 3.
Probably in June!
Tracy
Good morning!
Yes, the high value food was definitely very motivating! You can mix in other things like freeze dried treats that can pick up the smell/flavor of the stuff like liverwurst (literally mush them all together :)) so that you can have different values – we don’t want liverwurst to become low value from using it all the time LOL!She did really well here – especially because of all the noise in the environment. Sounds like there was construction or something? There was a huge horn blast when she landed from the ‘out’ jump at :41 which startled her a bit, then you were a little disconnected/early on the backside push so she came into the gap. She was super good about sticking with the game there: behold the power of liverwurst!
>>On these “outs”, my outside arm seems tepid! I think that the verbal didthe trick.>
You can give a stronger arm, pointing to the out jump, but she did find it really nicely. And good job to you for staying in motion along the line (not stopping and not moving towards the out jump) like at :12 and also at :40.
After the backside push FC, you can give her the wrap cue sooner so she can look forward for it (:17 and :48) The cone was a long distance away, so using big regular connection and the verbal as soon as she lands, she can drive ahead of you to the cone.
For the turn aways, remember to use more of a connection shift to your hands – at :22, she didn’t see the shift so so the pressure of you moving in to the line pushed her off the line (and into the tunnel :))
She got the jump at :36 and :52, so now you can use that connection shift sooner so that she can turn before takeoff, and you won’t need to go as close to the jump 🙂
Great job!!!
Tracy
