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Yay! Yes, rear crosses are about setting the line then driving it so the dog sees it pretty early – not about letting them get ahead of us.
T
Hi!
2 dogs in one class is a lot for you to split your focus! Are you able to spread. them out in the running order, so you have plenty of time to focus on each for their runs? That way Tipsy can get a good mental and physical warm u before her run, without you and her feeling rushed.
If there is no way to work them both in the same class without feeling rushing or having enough time to give them both what they need, I like your idea of giving Probie a session off (sorry Probie!) and that way you can devote all of your focus to Tipsy 🙂
Tracy
Thanks for the info!
>>What works best is tugging at the line and then taking the tug and dropping it and running. But that gets her energy up. Then she runs beautifully. >>
Yes – classic Yerkes Dodson arousal states: higher arousal optimizes her state and that is when you get the best performance!
>> I think now a nose touch back start or a collar grab start would fire her up too. Her arousal is going up in general. >>
You can add in moving tricks to this, and some ‘demand for the jump’ with a higher arousal state behavior such a barking at you! Sounds crazy, I know, totally counterintuitive… but completely in line with the science and works like a charm!
Tracy
Hi! I love that he puts himself in the kennel 🙂 That kind of agency bodes well for when we add in stuff like carrying the toy and other arousal regulation stuff!!!
Safe travels to Florida!
Tracy
Hi!
Good session here with the leash on then off! The Cato board helps too, plus all the cookies.
>>It went very well while she is not over the top aroused.>>
You can add in a tunnel then the board then the leash on then leash off then the tunnel. And we can gradually extend the time on leash and moving away, before leash off and back to play – or leash on and exiting for bigger rewards.
Question about al the cookies… do you bring cookies on the hikes? That can help, of course!
>>Next, plan to take your hiking suggestion to a highly charged fenced in area to see whether I shall be able to put on her leash treat and then remove leash to”hike” some more.>>
I think this is a good plan eventually, but not now. That sounds more like testing the behavior, but I want to build up the behavior more first. You can put the off leash hikes on hiatus until you are able to get more reinforcement and rehearsal into this behavior (practice makes pathways!). For now, do hikes on a long line so you can rehearse only desirable behaviors and re-wire the existing pathways of undesirable behaviors.
Let me know how the next rehearsals go!
Tracy
Hi!
First video – very nice with the get its on the line and getting the blind! Have you noticed that you are able to move faster now and she is finding the jumps? HOORAY! You were really hustling to get the blind and she got the jumps!
On the threadle section:
>>realize that either she doesn’t know the Left verbal very well or the excitement of running overrides it.>>
Neither! You had ‘conflicting indicators’ going on (my new favorite phrase!). Your voice said turn but your body said go straight. So she chose to go with the motion. To get the left on the jump, you can be using a more obvious brake arm and turning your shoulders away from the obvious tunnel entry. And don’t do the threadle verbal until you see her turn left on the jump.
>>On the reminder to be careful about my reward markers I had a couple of questions. On the threadle sequence, if I would say Get It (which is her marker for food or toy on the ground she should run to) that helped her turn from going into the tunnel straight on. Is that okay and what you meant about using the correct marker? >>
Yes – and you can add in calling her name then saying get it, because then her name can become part of the turn cue on softer turns like that.
>>Is it confusing to the dog to have so many verbals given in succession, Left, Whoop, Get It?>>
It is not confusing to use all the verbals… as long as the physical cues support them at this stage. Conflicting indicators will confuse her and she will have to choose: verbal or physical cue.
With that in mind though – don’t use your get it as a lure for the behavior 🙂 For the threadle reps at the end, you were not really showing the motion consistently so she was staying on the line til you said get it and dropped the toy. You will want to get the behavior then say get it.
She did well with the remote reinforcement! Very engaged 🙂 You can definitely try this with a toy! And we build on it with the new games added today 🙂
Great job!
TracyHi!
Lots of really good stuff here!!!Ramping up the arousal state outside the ring – no trouble at all, and she still entered the ring with complete engagement and a pretty great Tate of arousal.
Snappy line ups on each run!That tunnelers run looked great – toy on the ground, a nice remote reinforcement practice ! Good girl! Did you have anything in your pocket?
>>You’ll get a kick out of her absolute SHOCK when her toy walked away WITH SOMEONE ELSE!!!!! After that, she had no brains at all.>>
I am glad we asked her that question! She did lose her brain – what you saw was a divided attentional state – she was unable to prioritize one thing over the other. You can literally see her looking back and forth. That is why latency to the cues was super high or she couldn’t really respond (especially when you were not moving). So you can stay in motion, simplify the sequence (it was pretty hard!) and whip out the other to a lot sooner. This is especially important if you see her struggling – change plans to something simpler and show lots of motion, because that is more likely to help her prioritize.
On runs 3 and 4, there were some handling errors on the line – try to ignore those rather than stop and fix, and rather than stop and reward with the toy. I think it is just as important to not stop and give the toy, because that reinforcement can be confusing. Yes, if everything has cone to a screeching halt and there is no way to continue -give her the toy 🙂 But if she is still moving? You can keep going 🙂
So, if something goes wrong like she runs past a jump or takes an off course line, just keep going, get her back on a line, and reward when things are going right 🙂 The off courses/ running past stuff are just handling errors of being a little late or conflicting indicators (verbals versus motion) and she isn’t experienced enough to save you yet 🙂 Fixing can be frustrating, and stopping to reward after missing obstacles can be confusing, so it is better to intensify connection, get on a line, and reward that 🙂
Really nice job here! When is her next trial?
Tracy
>>Yeah, I spent several sessions just working on me while the pups were roaming. Still couldn’t get it when I added the dog.>>
Try it with an older dog first! Adult dogs will process the cues sooner than a puppy will. A pup will take longer to process the cues, which means you have to be earlier too – that is hard, so you can try it with an adult and see how that timing feels 🙂
T
Feel free to post it, I am sure it was not awful!!! Probably just some delays as your brain was processing the new mechanics, and a puppy who was coming at you FAST lol!!
>> It seems things we learned years ago have to be exorcised.>>
That is relatable. I originally learned handing using a system where blinds were forbidden LOL! So have to learn blinds was HARD and I did a lot of walking up and down hallways, practicing them slowly and without dogs.
And the very first blind I did in competition? Nope! Didn’t work. I was late and didn’t connect enough LOL! Oops! But it all got figured out with practice and cutting myself some slack 🙂
>>ewarding across the body worked like a charm – when I got a handle on my body.>>
Yes – it is a European way of training blinds (from folks like Jenny Damm) that opens up the connection brilliantly! Then we fade out the rewarding across the body because we have ‘taught’ your shoulders how to show great connection.
T
Good morning!
>>He’s a chewer. I haven’t found anything that he doesn’t chew thoroughly, even cheese. We’ll keep trying different things.>>
Alrighty then, we will let him chew LOL!!! As he gets more experienced, he will also eat faster (and when he is done teething).
>>This weekend Ven got to “walk” in several novel places while I worked my club’s tracking test. He met lots of new people, let a terv and a beagle ride in his car without any worry or barking, learned to potty next to a freeway, watched a busy street corner, and took a short walk on a college campus. He took it all in stride.>>
Super! That is a BIG weekend and I am glad he was great! And yes – that can be exhausting for a puppy 🙂
>>Now a short video, I’m struggling with the blind cross game. Ven was tired and wasn’t into toys tonight so I decided to give him the evening off. This clip shows my struggles to get the mechanics correct. Any guidance appreciated.>>
You are doing great!!! But it gives us insight into how animals like dogs and humans need a bit of time to process mechanics as they are learning them 🙂 You were nailing the mechanics, you just needed to think about it so you were not quite blazing fast yet. However, little Ven was still going fast, so you were a little late. No worries! On the next session, throw the start cookie a little further. Start moving away as you send him to the cookie so you are further away when he eats it. And then the instant he lifts his head from eating it: do the blind. That will give you time for your brain to process the mechanics.
And my motto for this is “Practice Makes Pathways” (neural pathway) so keep playing with this, without the dogs. Learning is consolidated in our brains when we sleep, so you can walk around the house doing blinds without the dogs, then get a good sleep – and I bet you feel it is easier in the next session.
Great job here!
TracyGood morning!
>>She didn’t understand high five from a stand and we don’t have walking on two legs.
You can definitely add in trick training sessions! These are easily lured and then the dogs are like, “that is fun!”
>This went ok. I’m competing with hackberries with the pattern game. >>
She did really well here! Practicing it is great (she might not need pattern games in front of the jump at home, but a bit of rehearsal is always a good thing!).
>>The last sit was definitely slower. I knew it in real time so that was our last rep. >>
Yes, a little slower but still good. If she has one or two good reps – remember how much glucose her brain is burning through, and don’t try for more. Quality of rehearsal is more important than quantity of rehearsal!
>>This doesn’t feel like a clean loop since there will never be food after leash removal. It feels like that should be the loop. >>
I don’t work this in clean loops because it isn’t 🙂 There is nothing about agility that makes for predictable clean looping LOL! It is mainly a behavior sequence (cue then next cue then next cue) and the very nature of the game makes it pretty unpredictable. A clean loop assumes A-B-C so yes, if you consider the next cue to be the “C” consequence, then you can think of it as a loop. But that cue may or may not be an actual reinforcement for the dog, so I think of it more as a behavior sequence.
And, since the internal and external environment is so fluid in the agility context, trying to work in the exact order you will have at a trial start line can cause stress in the training stages. The trial behavior comes after the training of the different pieces. For now, the feedback from Sprite was that she needed a bit of a pattern game in front of the jump in new, challenging locations because of the looking around at the park. That is on the same arousal level as the grass eating at training – both are ways where she is trying to self-regulate and needs more help, so we put the pattern games in for a bit until her self-regulation kicks in, then the food can be faded out.
The other option is to have a two toy pattern game (something I use all the time): a toy in each hand, a ‘bite’ marker, and an ‘out’ are what is needed. Start the game with a ‘bite’, do a little tugging, get the out – when she re-engages, mark it with a ‘bite’ on the next toy. That maintains the back and forth element with strong motivators in a way that can be used in the ring too!
>>Separately work line ups with no food and the leash off already. Then, put both back in the chain of getting to the line. >>
Yes, this can all be done as part of the remote reinforcement games. And remember that she gets a say in the progression – what we might want might not be what she needs, so stay flexible. Work all the pieces and then as she matures and gets more experienced (neural pathways!) you will see a really strong toolbox emerge.
>>But, I’m sure you have a scientific arousal manipulation comment for me. >>
That is the feedback from the dog. I view all of this not as a clean loop or anything, but a series of questions for the dog: how are you feeling? What do you need? How can I help? Are you ready? The feedback from the dog will give all the answers!
I often put the pattern game *after* the volume dial for younger dogs, then flip it to before the volume dial game as they get better and better with the games and environments. But that is dog dependent and we don’t really know yet with Sprite – we are still in the practice stages and it will likely change as she builds up the games.
>>I got myself into trouble using food for the line up in the first place. Things were great until the food went away. Then, it went in the toilet and created stress and probably a negative CER for lining up.>>
It was probably just too big of a leap forward, a bit of lumping, not enough asking her for feedback on what she needs.
>> Do you wait for a pause and eye contact after a pattern game like with the arousal dial? >>
The pause in the volume dial game is just part of the observation process so we can look at what the different arousal and attentional states look like. When I am moving to the line, I don’t pause to assess because by that point, I know what to look for. Same with the pattern games: by the time we are near the ring, there has been enough rehearsal that we know what the best states look like.
About eye contact… that totally depends on the dog. I don’t wait for it for dogs that do not offer eye contact when they are in the optimized state! That is why the observation is SO important. A huge amount of dogs that are really ready to go, truly in that optimized arousal state and sustained attentional state – eye contact is NOT what is going to happen. Waiting for it can add a lot of pressure and also change the attentional and arousal states.
We dog trainers LOVE the eye contact… but for many many dogs, it is not helpful to wait for it. That is why we do so much observing of what the dog looks like and how it acts during these different states.
>>I didn’t really have a clear transition that ended the pattern and now I’ll ask for a line up. It felt and looked sloppy. How do I clean that up with my mechanics?>>
Practice makes pathways for you both. When you get the latency you want in the pattern, you can ask for the line up. Getting a leash off while all of that is going on is hard but it will feel smoother with practice (which is why I bug everyone about using the leash :))
>>I have a few local AKC trials coming up that I could enter. But, I’m really hesitant to enter Sprite even at FEO. My only options are T2B or Fast. I’d only get 32 sec with fast. I think you get 50-60 sec with T2B. I could tug on the leash, take the leash off and cue strike with the toy. But…not sure it’s in her best interest. Plus, the toy can’t leave your hand which is a silly rule.>>
I think it is GREAT to enter her FEO – bearing in mind that you can be at a different point in the progression at a trial than you are in training, you can totally go into the much more challenging trial environment and do a “just like home” FEO run. That makes the trial environment a super fun, more relaxed place to be, before the harder skills are brought in.
>> I could tug on the leash, take the leash off and cue strike with the toy.>>
Yes! And then maybe play a little tug-demand the jump with a sit – tug and then after a sit, you can release to a jump. Fun fun fun! No pressure, all good times 🙂 The early stages of trialing are NOT about putting the hard pieces in, they are more about “wow, this ring is a GREAT place to be!!” And your stress will be reduced if you are going in there to play fun games with a toy.
Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
Yes, she is telling us she is not quite ready for Empty Hands yet – remote reinforcement is going to help that.
>> which works about 80% of the time.>>
80% is a shade too low – ideally, she is closer to 95% and also never takes off to chase squirrels.
>>I’ll show you the other games we play too but she never leaves me for squirrels when I have food on me. She loves all those games. I’ll keep on working remote reinforcement and show our progress.
And that is why I am emphasizing the RR games. When yummy food is visible and present, she is doing well. As soon as you try to run courses without the food present (or move away from the rear station) she has questions – so we will break it down and answer those questions 🙂
Tracy
Good morning and welcome! It sounds like Pepper did GREAT at the trial! Yay!!!!
This is a great question and totally NOT beyond the scope of the class. We have a live chat tonight and I think I will add it to the agenda!!
>>Although we’ve done a LOT of control unleashed classes, being out in the world, exposure to agility and nosework trials, we did have a situation where we were walking by a ring and a border collie charged at Pepper because the owner did not have the leash on the dog exiting the ring (against the rules but it appeared an accident because the gate didn’t have an exit fence). >>
That is a resilience moment, meaning getting the physiological bounce-back after something unexpected happens. I am sure she was startled and not being able to eat/play near the ring is part of that (I mean, do you blame her? LOL!!) So, in her body, her HPA axis was stimulated and she had all sorts of hormones, etc being pumped out at a higher rate (like cortisol).
Moving further away was great! And what also helps with resilience to reset the baseline is decompression: some of the basic back-and-forth pattern games with tossed treats, a snuffle mat, long sniffy walks… that all really helps! And if something bad happens, try to do that before she goes to sleep so you can help reset things before they get cemented during sleep. In the moment I might to tricks or tugging, but afterwards I will go for more olfaction stuff because that is better for resetting the HPA axis.
And yes, I am sure it will happen again, sadly! So don’t be afraid to speak up – it doesn’t matter to me if the dog accidentally left the ring or not. The dog charged at your dog in an aggression enough manner to freak your dog out. You can be very straight and polite and ask: “what will be done differently do that this dog does not aggress at my dog or other dogs again, ever?”
We all tend to say “ok, it is fine” but it really isn’t! So I am definitely speaking up more and am pretty direct about it now. That will mean that THOSE folks can be more vigilant and your dog is safer 🙂
Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>>I hope I didn’t screw her up.
You did not screw her up! You asked for feedback from her by bringing her into the ring, and she gave great feedback.
>>We’ve run in front of the people before, but I think the barking dogs really put her over the edge and she freaked.>>
Yes, that could be a big part! If there was barking and maybe even staring, that is a LOT of pressure and Viszlas are NOT a fan of that type of pressure (most dogs are not a fan of that either!)
>>She could work the games and find my face, but not as strongly as usual. She could not tug.>>
Great info from her! So you are looking for the pattern games to be almost as great as they are at home – use SUPER high value food. Not being able to tug is good info, so you can use high value food and do the volume dial game with that – if she can do her tricks, then you can move into the ring and start further from the crowd. But if she is slower or stickier with her patterns or tricks, then she is not ready to run sequences up close in front of a group.
>>I should continue to focus on games on the road any chance I get. Be patience and slowly integrate with equipment and distractions.>>
Yes – high success with high value reinforcement in different places! And patience – we are building neural pathways which take practice and also get cemented during sleep! We often see some results pretty quickly and then the rest of the results fall into place over time. She is on the right track!
Tracy
