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Good morning!
>>I do not have a tunnel threadle verbal- guess I better decide!>>
Yes, I think you will find it a useful verbal!
>>Here is the sit. Sorry it is long I wanted you to see her frustration. I guess I went too long.>>
I don’t think it is too long of a session – she asks some valid questions that we ave run into before in sit stay training especially with small dogs with fast feet 🙂
The stool definitely helps isolate “stay in this spot”. Do you have something lower/less slippery so it is easier to throw the reward back to her? That will make it perfect!
Her questions here had to do with reward placement. When you were reaching in to reward her, there was a lot of foot movement happening as she was reaching for the food (and that would often include standing up right before the cookie reached her mouth, so standing up got rewarded a few of times too).
Reaching in to deliver the treats often gets the dog moving forward to get the treats, and delivering while they hold the sit without moving is SUPER hard. Yes, it can be done (adding a ‘don’t move, treat coming to you’ marker) and also slowly moving the treat in – but this also ends up with more punishment than desired because if she moves or stands, you would need to withdraw the treat. And I don’t what to do that, not worth the confusion when it is easy to train this without the hand-delivery.
My guess is she doesn’t even realize she is standing up/moving, or doesn’t realize that is it undesired because the cookie is arriving sometimes when she is moving into the stand. Then she got big mad and tried to figure out what you wanted by offering more.
Two other things to consider:
– handler proximity when delivering the cookies gets built in when we go back to reward the stay, so when you try to move away she wants to come with you (because she thinks she needs to be close to the cookie hand to get the cookie, based on prior experiences in the session). Note how much better it was when you stopped hand-delivering and moved away 🙂
– Also, when you stopped and looked at her with a cookie in your hand, that is the International shaping cue: “keep offering behavior”. So she was trying to figure out what you wanted and got The Big Madz when nothing worked.
So, using something that is easier to get on and off, you can really isolate the stay with no movement by moving away, (don’t hand-deliver a treat when she sits and then try to move away, as that might cause confusion), marking with your catch verbal, waiting a beat – then tossing the cookie (so the cookie toss hand is not moving before or during the marker.
You can also do this without cookies and use a toy with the tug-sit-release to tug version of the game! I use that a LOT and it really isolates the stay without movement while working in higher arousal too! Because it is higher arousal, we split the behavior into smaller pieces so she is successful.
She is off to a great start here – try it without the hand-delivery and let me know how it goes!
Tracy
Good morning!
It is like a Jimothy Sampler Platter! Yay! All the training is moving all really well 🙂
GOAT games are looking really good – he is at the size now where you will want to find/borrow/steal either another wobbly board to a bigger one, so he can get all feets on it without scrunching up – being scrunched probably feels off balance so he was less easily able to do it.
Definitely keep revisiting this game once or two a week until you start teeter training eventually 🙂 Wobble boards are a priority so that the pups continue to love them rather than decide they are scary when we come back to them after a few months off.
He was great on the plank! For such a young dude, he was very controlled in his movement and balance getting on it with all 4 feet (I mean, my 11 month old pup can’t do it with that much balance and control haha!)
He might need a wider plank to do some slow turning around – this one is so narrow that he will have to step off. So if you have another plank to put next to it, or a wider one, you can definitely start the turning around.
Toy races: Big progress! I LOVED the last rep here, it is exactly what we want: he looked ahead and grabbed it immediately. YAY! One thing I think helps if when you get him riled up with the toy swishing around in front of him, then throw it… then you are quiet when he starts moving. One ‘get it’ is fine but when you say it the 2nd or 3rd time, he looks at you. So keep riling him up and then be quiet til he gets to the toy.
The other option is to grab a training partner (hey Sarah!) and work it flyball style (there is no looking at the momma when driving ahead in flyball LOL!!): you are holding him, she gets him riled up with the toy right in front of him, then she starts to jog away dragging it. When she is about 6 feet away to start, let him go so he can race to it (and you can move to). If he is confident with that, your helper can be further away dragging the toy when you let go, and you can try to run too!
He is definitely smacking that hat now, lots of value! It looks like most of this was offering and he was great. Onwards to sending him to it as well as the parallel path game, both of which basically use the prop to simulate a jump 🙂 He looks ready!
Barrel game is looking great!! And the cat made an appearance to help proof the skill LOL!!
There was plenty of distance between you and the barrel… but be quiet LOL!! When you are really exuberant with your praise or talking too much, he loses his train of thought and that was when he forgot to go around the barrel (even when it was close to you).So during the shaping, you can say “yes” when you drop the cookie then be quiet (no conversing :)) and if he misses, don’t say anything (that will be very helpful to him, more helpful than talking to him). Then when you are taking a tug break, you can be very vocal and conversational 🙂
Then next step (which he is ready for) is for you to transition to standing up. Because he is so small, do you ave something low that you can sit on for a session or two? That will be a good bridge from sitting on the ground. Or if your knees won’t be angry, you can kneel.
Great job here!! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Good morning!
>>Sounds like we’re in ARE mode for the long haul for sure!😂
This is true for all of us! ARE is a lifestyle 😁🤣😁
>>She’s actually quite good on her stopped contacts (teeter and dogwalk) even without a reward. I will use the Toppl and see if that helps. Should I carry it in my hand Or in my pocket? And should I use it at the start line?>>
If it is incredibly motviating to her, use it anywhere that you think she needs help because the environment is really hard. At home? Probably not 🙂 At class? Probably yes 🙂
And start with it in your hand at first, then if she does really well – move it to a pocket over the course of a few classes. Or if a new distraction arrives like new people or dogs? Put it back in your hand. The visual of the huge motivator will give her a focal point to help draw her away from the distractions. Then you can use it in the other games, like remote reinforcement.
>>And I should do a little preview training in the house and/or yard.>>
You probably don’t need to, plus you will want to keep the Topple novel and very exciting 🙂
Tracy
Good morning!
>>Pizzazz and I never did put the 3D Seq together perfectly. >>
No worries! It is a beast of a sequence, really hard at every step! The goal is to get the teamwork and connection and work through the hard stuff, even if it was in smaller pieces.
Using the leash was great, making it a fun part of each training session and now she is so much more used to dealing with the leash. Perfect!
And there were some big distractions here (sirens, trucks, train, etc) and she did well!
>>You’ll notice I keep making the same mistakes on #3.>>
That is one of the hardest spots on this course! The key is to be as far from jump 2 as possible when you cue it, so you can slide past the exit wing of 3 before she takes off for it – while Serp-ing her and looking back at the landing spot so she doesn’t miss the jump. HARD!!
You can isolate this at home and play with it. See how far from the 1-2 line you can be and still get 1 and 2. What was causing you trouble here was that you ran very close to 2, so ended up in her way on 3 (so either the turn was a little wide, or when you over-helped, she hit the wing).
The 4-5-6-7-8 line looked terrific and she knew exactly where to be to find 9.
>>Also #10. I was so clumsy.>>
You were not clumsy! The 9-10 line was the other really hard part (ok, 12 was super hard too LOL!). You got to 9 easily, but you were turning to face it and then trying to do a blind cross, so the re-connection on the blind ended up being late.
On jump 9, you might find it a lot easier to do a throwback rather an a blind, it will be also be earlier. To do a throwback: she is on your right hand as you indicate the jump and your back is to the jump (instead of facing it). Your right hand indicates the jump and you can point at landing (and looking back at landing also helps her commit). Then when you see her getting ready to take off, you can move forward and do a quick blind to your left side for 10.
You did it as a full front cross on last run and a post turn and it worked well!
12 to the end was the other hard spot – the good news was that she never took the off course tunnel, and that was the main part of the challenge! You got her to the backside -to help be able to move through it cleanly, run to the center of the bar as you cue the backside so you can get her to your right side more easily when she is coming to the takeoff spot. And if she doesn’t automatically take the jump on the backside, you can help her by looking behind you at the landing spot as you move through to 13. That will all make getting that 13-14 line a lot easier (it is a hard line!)
The more you play around with these complex sequences, the easier it will be to know exactly where to be on the line, and when she will commit.
>>I’ve been trying to follow your advice by struggling through my mistakes and keep going anyway. I’m seeing little stress sniffing even though there *was* some distraction when my field-sharing mates showed up.
Yes, there was some sniffing but for the most part, she was happy to keep going after a blooper – she did not deflate if you were not perfect 🙂 Being perfect is impossible, so keeping it fun is key!
>>Do you suggest another class like this for P & me to study and practice? >>
We have our connection class in January – just a couple of jumps and lots of skills classes! We will get back to the bigger classes when the weather improves in the rest of the country 🙂
>>My club has a trial at the end of this month. After our last trial fiasco, I thought it would be another year before we’d try another NFC class but I’m considering entering 2 NFC classes with a day between each class. If the first day doesn’t go well I’ll pull her from the second day. My plan was to use the tools you’ve given me to try a short sequence then a leash on, play tug, then leave engaged. Do you think this is something we should try?>>
I think the first NFC should be a ‘just like home’ run with a toy in the ring, in your hands – and playing in the ring (rather than after the leash is back on). Play before the leash comes off, take the leash off, maybe do a couple of tunnels and play. Play play play LOL!!
And you will want to know if she can do that at home before you try it in a trial – which means doing short tunnel sequences with a toy only and no cookies in your hands/pockets and not wearing the cookie pouch. Right now there are a lot of cookies and no toys in the training, and trying to go to a toy-only at a trial will be stressful unless you are sure she will love it.
And, you will want her to be able to do short easy toy-only runs around other people so she doesn’t scoot off when she sees people, like she did at the end here.Is it a UKI trial? There is soooo much more flexibility with NFC in UKI – you can use a helper in the ring, you can throw the toy, etc.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyAh yes, he could have sensed your emotions and been concerned about you. That is our boy Border Collies! Girl BCs are different:
Girl BC: MOM GET IT TOGETHER!!!
Boy BC: Mom OMG I love you so much do you need a hug what can I help with do you need a cup of tea or do you want to just snuggle up.So you can totally lean on Sid, he is there for you ❤️ He doesn’t care if he does agility right now, he wants to help you feel better.
T
Hi!
>>Thanks for the music analogy. >>
I figured you would totally get it LOL! I almost put in a crack about ‘don’t rush like a percussionist’ but I restrained myself LOL!!
>>I think I tend to rush the treat delivery because I’m thinking about rewarding quickly and before they get up, as opposed to letting the marker cue due its thing and predict the reward.>>
Totally relatable! I often do the same. And that is part of the reason why we start with the goofy games as framework for markers, to get the mechanics and markers in place so it is easier to train the ‘fancy stuff’ in the future 🙂
The barrel wrapping is good! That was the easiest part of the session. The extra food bowl was great! She was leaping a decent amount here and trash talking before the toy race, so I have an idea for you:
She wants to do The Thing so at the beginning, I think she has trouble controlling her arousal and was leaping up. As soon as she was doing the thing, she was fine! And I am not sure she always considers toy play a part of doing The Thing so sometimes you get the leaping in that transition, until she realizes that yes, you are doing The Thing (whatever The Thing is at the moment LOL!!)
I think she needs a bridge behavior to step up and step downing aorusal level in and out of the games, so she is coming into the session, getting to do a not-too-arousing Thing while you get ready, then can get released right into The Real Thing. Then to switch back to toy play, we bridge her out of the session.
So what is the bridge behavior? I believe you mentioned she is working on stationing or standing on a bed or cot? That might be a great bridge behavior! For example, she comes into the training room, and gets right onto her cot (doing The Thing which also happens to be incompatible with leaping up :)) Then you can get your toys/cookies/etc sorted and release her directly into the session (doing The Next Thing) and reward that for a couple of reps. Then use the bridge behavior as a ‘step down’ out of the session – when you have done the last rep for the moment, you can send her to her cot/mat/bed and toss a cookie to her. Then release her off of it to do a toy chase or a decompression. Then back to the cot to start the next reps.
Let me know if the bridge concept makes sense, we have been using it successfully for dogs for a while. Works well for humans too, like when I used a bridge behavior (scrolling on TikTok in my driveway) to reduce the arousal of a 3 hour drive home in bad weather before going into the house and being a civilized person LOL! Worked like a charm!!!
She totally started the parallel path beautifully! Because the prop is so small, she wasn’t really touching it (riding over it) and that is fine 🙂 The baby jump bar was great!
>>My “get its” were late.
I think they were good for this first session – they were really saying “YES IT IS THE WEIRD BAR THING” 😁🤣. She got it really easily! Any sooner for the first session might not have been as specific about the bar.
So on the next session, you can mark her intent to go to the jump with the get it. That will probably look like the moment she turns to look at the bar and takes the first step towards it. That should give you time to toss the treat so it lands refer she looks back at you.
>>Should I be using wingless uprights?
I think the wing uprights were great and she did really well!!
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Hi!
>>I have to admit that this is one of the harder skills for me. >>
It is a really hard skill!! There are a bunch of different ways to get the behavior, so I am glad you abandoned the first attempt which he clearly thought was a down cue 🙂
He would shuffle back when you moved your hand towards him. But then he would still do the down 🙂Sitting in the chair took away some of the pressure from leaning over, and he was starting to make progress because his head was higher (which is more conducive to backing up and less conducive to the down :)) Yay!
You can split the behavior using the target even more:
Start him with all 4 feet on the mat, with a couple of cookies. Then lure his front feet only off the mat… then withdraw the lure. He is likely to step back onto the mat with a front foot or two and you can reward that. That can jumpstart the behavior even more by isolating that it is stepping back onto the mat. When he is doing that consistently, you can lure all 4 of his feet off, then reward for when he steps his back feet onto it.
Great job getting this behavior started! Keep me updated on how he does with it!
Tracy
Hi!
>>We did the decel game again & driving ahead with earlier devel on my part – worked much better.
Yay! Super!
>>But what happens with this session? I think you are going to say it was too long & I let too many errors happen.>>
I don’t think it was the length of the session – I think he doesn’t like being held by the collar. He tolerated it twice but that was about he could do – then he was getting a little avoidant of it, then communicated it pretty clearly from 2:19 – 2:38: “please don’t take my collar”. Note all of the avoidance and submissive signaling. Then when you took his collar again, he decided a better form of communication was withdrawing from the session – opting out of going near the tunnel. So while he did bring the toy back, he didn’t really engage with it when you got closer to the tunnel (because getting near the tunnel means you are going to grab his collar). That was pretty clear communication from him! Easier to see on the video than in real time, probably.
So, the main thing is that for now, don’t hold his collar during training of the tunnel or anything. He doesn’t like it enough for it to be helpful, and trying to hold his collar can be stressful for him.
Separately, though, it is a skill worth working on because it is a great life skill! You can work on it at meal time, such as holding his food bowl, putting a finger under his collar, then putting the food bowl down and letting go so he can eat. And you can do it when throwing toys he likes: show the toy, put a finger under his collar, throw the toy, and let go immediately so he can chase it (you can do it with treats too). Bit by bit you can build it up to reaching for him, holding the collar for longer, etc, until he is happier to let you hold the collar in training. And if you see any signs of stress or avoidance, back off so you are moving your hand near his collar and not touching him, if that is where he needs us to start.
Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
Looking at the tunnel videos – the first rep on each side on the first video was too hard (hard angle and a turn away I pretty complex) so it was smart to break it down and do some regular ones. You can also reward the rep where she went around to the other side of the tunnel because that is not really incorrect LOL!
On the 2nd video, the warm up with a regular send really help as did the placed reward. You can leave the placed reward there for the whole session, no need to change up reward placement – it is the reward placement that helps create the behavior so we don’t want her to start to think about where the reward will be 🙂
>>Should I start using a threadle cue now?>>
I would let her sleep on it for a night or two (real sleep consolidates the learning). Then do a refresher session just like the 2nd video here and see how it goes. If it is all good, then you can add the tunnel threadle verbal.
The rotated sends do look good! Yay! Time to add the wrap verbals to those, and toy rewards so she is driving more (treats are nice but the toy produces the speed :))
The retrieving is also going well! Try not to have the tunnel in the thick of it all there, because we don’t want her NOT taking it but also we don’t want her taking it LOL! And you can use the tunnel for the retrieving – send her through it, throw the toy as the reward, then ask for the retrieve. The retrieve is going really well so you can incorporate it into the training sessions.
Now that there are so many games and they are getting more complex, you can start to set the training up on a rotation. You can play one of the games/train a skill then put it away for 48 hours so her brain can percolate on it, rather than repeat it every day. That way she can cement the learning (latent learning is awesome!) and you can cover a variety of games without doing too many.
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyWow! Well done here!!!
You were super connected and showed him every single line. The FC 2-3 worked great. I am not sure why he didn’t release immediately off the start line – probably the pole was blocking his view 🙂 But then he was a rocket: the FC was followed by a really right turn to 4. The middle line back to the tunnel looked great but most impresive was getting him to the backside to 12 at :33, with the tunnel literally right there! I mean, my dog could do it with the tunnel 15 feet away but I am not sure he could do it with the tunnel 3 feet away like Sid did here. Yay!Great job! Bright things ahead for you and Sid!!!
Tracy
Good morning!
>>I’m not sure I fully understand this part
“….both of those involve movement and a Viszla needs movement as part of arousal regulation (I have never met a V that didn’t need to move as part of arousal regulation). So the reward process on the DW can look different – or you can release and reward with movement.”Tell me more about arousal regulation. Is it like decompression?>>
Arousal regulation is basically built into all of the games we are playing, that ask the dog to center themselves and not get overaroused (with our help :)) It is not operant, it is not a click/treat type of thing 🙂 it is training their physiology. All of the A.R.E. Toolbox games are about arousal regulation, using different frameworks to help the dog.
One element of arousal regulation is figuring out the needs of the individual dog. This is individual but also looks at breed characteristics and epigenetics (the way behavior and environment can change genetic expression, cool stuff!). One thing I notice in Vizslas and also in sporting breeds in general is that they need to move as part of their arousal regulation process. Asking them to be stationary is BIG DIFFICULT so for the behaviors that are stationary (start lines, stopped contacts for example) I like to build in motion as part of the reward. So I don’t recommend rewarding in position for her – a thrown reinforcement will be very effective both for the behavior you want and for the arousal regulation element.
So you would mark the correct behavior with a ‘get it’ then throw the reward. Just be sure that you get the actual real behavior (stopping!) and not one foot kinda sorta touching LOL!! Then after the thrown reward, you can reset for the next part of the sequence: do a little decompression moment of a treat scatter or snuffle mat (I carry a tiny one in my pocket sometimes!) then carry on to the sequence 🙂
>>And, it’s okay if I “cheat” n these situations to keep her attention? I could toss the Toppl which is highly rewarding to her.>>
I don’t think this is cheating. It sounds like it is highly motivating and easy to throw, which can help overcome the challenges of the environment (external and internal). Using a reinforcement/motivator that she loves will go a long way to helping her regulate arousal and tune out the environment. And since the Toppl might be very exciting, you can use a target on the contacts to help her stop properly so she doesn’t get it wrong. We really don’t want her to be wrong with an agility behavior, because that could really shift her arousal the wrong way when she is working really hard to handle the environment.
Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
I hope your mom is doing better!! Sprite has had a big few weeks and has been doing exceptionally well, so some downtime is actually beneficial when life springs other things on you.
I hear that Taq did really well at the dog show! Not surprising at all 🙂 And I am glad that Sprite was able to cheer on her friend 🙂 I would love to see the photo! You can share it as a URL here or you can PM me on Facebook. I need some cuteness to brighten up this dreary rainy day!
T
