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These are Threadle slices – He is reading these really well too!! Good job moving the toy further across the line on the 2nd and 3rd reps so he can slice and take one more stride to the toy. That worked nicely!
As with serps – release and look at your hand (you looked at your hand nicely on the 3rd rep!) but don’t move your shoulders til after he is at the reward 🙂 We will be adding handler motion soon!T
Hi!
These are Serps: looking good! Two small details:When you release from the stay, look at your serp hand – this will help when we add motion soon because it will help direct his focus. And as he is coming over the jump, don’t move your shoulders til after he gets to the toy because we don’t want you to rehearse shoulder movement as part of the cue (serp shoulders stay ‘locked’ in place as you run the line on course). This will be the same for threadles too: look at the cue hand, don’t move your shoulders til after he arrives at the reward (you can keep using your marker to cue getting the reward, that was great!)
T
Hi!
>> I understand the logical meaning of your comment:
“The main thing with this exercise is to be hyper-clear with the mechanics…”
but that isn’t the same as applying the mechanics correctly in real life.>>Yes and no… in agility, our mechanics can generally be classified as “good enough” because we don’t need a lot of precision in the cue or the reinforcement in order to teach the dog (which is part of the reason I don’t use a clicker a lot in agility anymore). You can be correct without being super precise. But this head turn game is one of the few things that needs an exactness and precision in the mechanics, especially in the early stages, because we are trying to isolate and mark a relatively ‘small’ behavior. That level of precision usually involves us slowing things down and getting really close, so that the dog can see the small hand cue that elicits the behavior.
Trying it with an adult dog is great, because the adults give us good feedback! Enzo was giving excellent feedback, so try not to mark anything with “no” (especially because your verbals were ‘go’ based at the beginning and your cues were not always clear, so he was not wrong to ask questions).
So looking at the Enzo video:
The hand cue for the turn is a little too high and too soon, which is why he had questions at :02 and :18, for example. He figured it out because he is experienced but those questions are the same ones Casper will have (but Casper won’t have the same experience to sort it out).So when he starts on your left, for example: send to the barrel then get your left hand low (nose level) so as he exits, the barrel, your hand is *right there*. When his nose is about 2 inches from your left hand, use that hand to draw him around a bit and flip his head away – and the instant he turns his head away, click and toss.
With the hand higher, he is going to look at you more and you will get more looking at you if you do more than twice around (most of these were 3)
For timing – an example of the best timing of the click here was on the rep that started at :32 – he went around once, then you clicked just after he turned his head on the 2nd time around – super!!! The only thing I would add to this is the strong hand cue (in front of the dog’s nose and delivering the cue. Your left hand was not really cuing the turn, you were using verbals and a bit of shoulder pressure. And adult dog will read it, but a puppy is not likely to read the turn cue. And even with an adult dog, it is harder to isolate the head-turn moment because we are not specifically eliciting it. That will make the clicks a little late because it is harder for us to predict when it will happen. But when we elicit it, the clicks will be more timely because we can predict that is it about to happen 🙂
And yes, we do fade the cue but that is after we see the dogs have the lightbulb moment and really begin to turn their heads. You will see the dogs exaggerate it rather than just move around the barrel (which is part of the reason I went back to a single upright to teach it, because the dogs could really exaggerate it more in that context). I think Enzo knew it was something about wrapping the barrel… but I am no sure if he knew it was the head turn. So try the hand cue to elicit it and see what happens 🙂
Let me know what you think and keep me posted!
TracyHi!
>>She is starting to expect the version without motion when we are at trial sites, so adding motion did not seem to phase her. The game seems to reduce the “bigness” of the environment for her. I can see her focus area get smaller once we start playing. She is not looking way off into the distance, but just paying attention to her close surroundings.>>
That is a really interesting insight, about the ‘bigness’ of the environment! And I am glad she is doing well!!!!
>>Is she ready to start on the Handling Combos! Acceleration, Decel, Turns, Blinds, and Front Crosses game? Or keep going with this one?>>
Yes, you can totally add those! And mix in more rocking horses too – keep things spicy so it doesn’t get repetitive.
Looking at the rear crosses: this went really well!!!
The dustpan made a perfect treat holder to start the rear crosses! The next steps would be to start her further away from it, so you can cut behind her sooner (you will have more room to do it if you start 8 or 10 feet away). That way you can also stand up more. And the dustpan can start to move off the wall, so it is more on a straight line ahead like a jump would be. And you can try hre harder side (but keep the dustpan again the wall to help her out on those).The tunnel games looked great! She was very happy to run through it to the Manners Minder LOL! The Boingzinga moment was hilarious! Since she was so happy to run through the tunnel, you can start to add the verbal: gently hold her collar (or a harness, whatever is easier), say tunnel 3 or 4 times… then let her go so she can run through it. You can also start to move the MM a couple of feet away from the exit, to get even more speed 🙂
>>Also, what is the next class after this one? I totally want to keep going! This is an amazing class.>>
I am glad you are having fun!!! This class will wrap up in late February (to give everyone time to finish he games) and MaxPup 2 will start in March (mid to late march – I need to get the exact dates sorted out this week!! You current MaxPup folks will get first crack at it before it goes public.
Great job!!
TracyHi!
>> so I can work the threadle at the barn or once I can get outside.
Yes, it is fine to put the threadle on the back burner for now – it is a low priority compared to the other things like learning to drive lines.
>> Dreamer has so little collection that I hope Casper will have more. Though Casper will be small so I don’t know how much collection he’ll need to have.>>
He will totally have a great collection understanding! And since he is little, he will not need a TON of collection but he will need to know how to set up his turns.
>>Wasn’t the pool noodle cute? LOL he does make me laugh this silly guy. It’s all about play for him, which is awesome.>>
You can probably use the pool noodle as a tug toy!!
>>Changing focus a bit, I have been during perch work with him since he was little. I usually step around the perch, so that’s where we are now. However, I really like your idea of tossing the cookie at an angle, then when he gets back on the perch and moves his rear to face me, click/treat for rear movement! I can work on that.>>
The hardest part about training little fast dogs is that their little feet move SO FAST that we need to be insanely quick with the rewards. Your clicks were good here, but the reward delivery was a little slow and he was adding front foot movement and hopping up – so even though you were rewarding pretty quickly, you need to be faster LOL! How to be faster? You can already have the treats right in front of his nose, either by bending down so the treats are nose-level the whole time (just below your knees), or fade out your motion and you can be sitting on a couch or chair or something. Goal is to have virtually no time between the click and delivery, because everything between the click and the delivery gets built into the behavior (I learned this the hard way with my first small dog LOL!)
And the tossed treats at an angle can also totally help, because he won’t be doing any front foot tap dancing while watching the treat get delivered 🙂
Looking at the stays – the platform TOTALLY helps!!! I would only toss the treat back for him rather than deliver it in position, for the same reason as above – if you are a tiny heartbeat delayed in getting the treat to him, you will get tap-dancing of the front feet.
And with throwing the reward back to him. you can begin adding duration as you move away: when he gets on the platform and sits, you can move a tiny half step away then click and throw the reward back to him. Rewarding from your hand a lot will cause him to want to move with your hand as you move away, making it harder to get distance between you and him.
Definitely keep using the platform, it is the most “stillness” that we have seen from him! Yay!!!
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi! This was not a hot mess at all – this skill only needs clearer and earlier reward placement.
He is doing a good job of the in and out behavior – he doesn’t actually have to touch your hand at this point, the hand is just the cue for the in and out. He is following the hand cue mostly perfectly – when you are a little too much between the uprights, he sometimes goes to the front of the jump but that is also a reward placement issue. And when you do a little shoulder dip (like at 4:42) he reads the arm cue REALLY well!! I don’t think you need to get lower than that little dip/arm swinging back moment and when you are in motion, it won’t feel as much like leaning over.
>>I’d also be interested in exploring the arm across the chest threadle cue. Do you think that would work here? I may not feel like I have to bend down to get my hand at his face level?>>
You can play with the cross arm cue, it is definitely useful… but it won’t answer the reward placement question.
The main question he is having is about where to look for the reward, which is why he is not always coming to the correct line especially on the threadle exit. We need to hash out the reward placement before putting this back on the jump, beause he is relying on the timing of your reward throw (which is late, so he is watching for the toy throw which has become the cue to go back out). By watching for the toy as part of the cue, you are seeing him not look for the bar on the threadle exit, and sometimes come over the bar instead of to the threadle side.
>> I cannot put the toy down on the ground at the reinforcement spot since he has way more value for the toy –>>
Separately from threadles, work on the toy being able to go to the ground. You can start it with him in a sit, and shape it systematially: he is in the sit and you show him the toy: when he holds the sit for a couple more seconds, release to the toy (he doesn’t have to look at you, he can stare at the toy).
The successively work the toy to the ground while he holds the sit – keep a high rate of success, so it might take a while to get the toy to the ground because you will want to release him before he breaks the sit.
When he can hold a sit when the toy goes to the ground, you can exchange the sit behavior for a hand target: toy is halfway to the ground, dangling… you ask for the hand target. Then you can work up to putting the toy on the ground and asking for a hand target.
When he can do that, all of this threadle and serp stuff will be clear sailing 🙂 We don’t want to skip those steps with the reward, because it will muddy the threadles and serps!
Let me know what you think, and keep me posted about his progress as you get the toy to the ground 🙂
TracyHi!
He did well with the lead change cue here (nice value for the prop!) and also did just as well when you wanted him to come straight. You were moving on the push cues, so be sure to add balance with you moving on the ‘don’t push’ moments 🙂 We will build on this soon, so you can put it on the back burner for now because it is in a good place in terms of value and understanding (and move to other games)Nice attention to markers throughout here!! You are adding a lot of clarity to his world when you use them like this!
Great job!! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
His understanding of driving around the barrels looks really good on both the rocking horses and the backwards/sideways sends.He is smashing through the barrels a bit – the pups with the see-through barrels are tending to do this. Before adding more speed, try this on barrels that he can’t see through, and also try it on solid barrels like trash cans or giant cones, to help him go around the barrels more and through the barrels less 🙂 Then you can add the faster-moving games as well as the wrap verbals.
Nice work!
TracyHi!
These are looking good, and I think both are ready for you to add the prop! My only small suggestions are:
for the lap turn, lean down a little more so your hand is at his nose level (thankfully he is tall haha!) – this will help him drive in and keep his head lower.for the tandem turns, start with a cookie toss so he is moving towards you rather than starting at your side, so you can show him the decel and turn hands sooner.
Onwards to the prop! Great job!
TracyHi!
>> I have trained Hoke with the threadle arm across the body because I am concerned that the ‘pose’ with out the arm will be confused with the serp. It seems like you pretty much have to be at the right place to cue the threadle without the outside arm. It looks really cool that way and it much easier to keep moving if you don’t have arm across body.>>
I use both, depending on the situation. For those Premier threadles, the dogs often do better when we have the outside arm and sometimes even rotate our feet. For the more flowing UKI or international-style threadles, the one-arm threadle cue works great!
And the verbal and position help the dog understand it is not a serpentine. Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>>For your info: this is about the longest he will work for food in a challenging environment. Jen was teaching class in the other half of the room. I pulled out a toy for some other stuff but I thought food would be a better modality for this exercise.>>
I think he did really well with the food here, especially with such exciting stuff in view here!! And yes, food is definitely better for this exercise. If you feel his interest in food is waning, you can build in tug breaks too.
>>One thing we are teaching that I would like to understand and teach competently is the head-turn for jumping. Enzo does not do this at all; I wish he did. I really think it would help Casper. (I will try the re-teach on Enzo, also.)>>
This game makes a big difference, and yes it is fun and easy to go back to teach Enzo too! The main thing with this exercise is to be hyper-clear with the mechanics especially to get it started. It is that hand cue on the 2nd wrap that ‘gets’ the behavior for us to click/treat.
So start with yourself and Casper close to the wing – send with one hand, and using that same hand – put the hand right in front of his nose, kind of like a lap turn, then use that hand cue to turn his head back to the wing: then click that moment and toss the treat to the other side of the wing.
Looking at the video – these reps were almost all single wraps, clicking for him exiting the wing with the reward tossed out past it without him, so I think he took it to mean: go around the wing and stay out there but not leading with his head necessarily. At 1:38 & 2:58 you did a 2nd wrap but the hand position was too high and it was the other hand, and he was confused and stayed out past the wing.
So to really lock into the head turn, get super close to the wing to work that up-close head turn and click that – then I think it will really get locked in!
Let me know if that makes sense!
TracyHi! She is doing really well on all of these!
Backsides slices:
>. In the one session there was lots of activity behind her and she worked hard to stay focused>>
Yes, she was fabulous!!! The first part of the video had a little too much of you moving to the barrel and releasing at the same time as moving. But then at :31, :37, and especially :41 – you nailed the mechanics of moving then releasing and releasing with the backside verbal. And the rest of the session looked great!!!
One small detail: you can connect a tiny bit less so your dog-side shoulder is NOT as far back (yes, I know, I said connect less haha). You want to find the balance of strong connection without tooooo much upper body rotation.
>In the last practice, Debbie reminded me to throw in some parallel lines going straight.
Yes! Releasing with the back verbal versus the regular release helps the dog differentiate. At 1:35 she had an error but that was a valid expectation on her part because she had done a bunch of the backsides and had heard the regular release on some of them. So you can reset with a reward and make it more obvious like you did on th next rep.
Head turns: She is doing well and getting the idea here!
>> Would it help to have something for her to go around that didn’t have such big legs to step over>>
Don’t worry about how wide or tight the turns are – it is the head turn we are looking for 🙂 The legs of the upright were fine 🙂 Using slower mechanics helped – try to have your turn had lower , so it is at her nose level. When your hand was too high, she was doing the 2nd wrap but without as much of a crisp head turn. So the hand on these should be super low, like a lap turn, to get the very crisp head turn.
Threadle slices –
>>She wasn’t sure of where the reward was coming on some of them.>>
She did really well coming in to the threadle side of the jump, and I agree that she didn’t quite know where the rewards were coming from.
When working with other people around and using food – Can you ask Suzie to drop it for you, so you don’t need to move your shoulders as you toss the treats? We want your shoulders to stay frozen, not moving at all, because we don’t want to accidentally build in shoulder movement as a cue to go out to take the jump.
If you are training on your own, use a placed reward, like a cookie in the bowl. At the end of the video (1:13) you can see that the shoulder movement to throw the reward was causing questions about which side of you to be on, because it was ‘closing’ your shoulders and looked like a blind cross cue to her. On those last few reps, there was no bar so she didn’t know where to be – definitely use a bar on threadle practice because it is a useful visual for the pups 🙂
Also, since she seems to think the treats are a “meh” motivator for this game, try this with a toy placed on the ground instead of the bowl (which is also a great self-control game too :))
Another thing to be careful of is timing of the release:
get your threadle hand in position, look at it… then release. You were releasing at the same time as you moved your hand into position, which builds the hand movement into the release and also when she was very close to the jump (:45), it caused an error: she heard the release before she saw the hand, so she was correct to take the front of the jumpPerch work – She is getting the idea for sure! There is no rush to get her to step over something – you will want her to be immediately taking several steps as soon as she gets on the perch before you add anything to step over. She is taking a couple of steps here in the 2nd part of the video, but give each level several sessions before going to the next step.
Something that will help her is if you keep your cookie hands right in front of her nose, with you standing up (so your hands will be at the top of your thighs). And keep your hands in that position for the rewards too, so she is not turning her head to the side at all. This gives her a focal point and keeps her head up and body straight, which allow for more hind end independence (she is a little too tall for you to be bent over or on your knees for this, because it lowers her head too much).
Great job on these! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning! He is doing well on all of these!
Perch work videos: a couple of suggestions for mechanics, so he can get even more back foot movement.
When using your motion to get the back feet moving: have your cookies in your hand, and leave your hands in front of you just above his nose level as a focal point. That way, as you start to move slowly around the perch, his head stays straight because he can look at your hands and you will remain facing him. When your hands were high or to the sides, he was turning his head which made it harder to independently move his back feet. And then it is easier to reward him, because the cookies are right there and his head will remain straight. When you need to reload cookies, you can release him from the perch with a tossed cookie 🙂
He did well with lifting his feet over 1 bar (2nd video) but I think having all 3 things for him to go over was too hard (note how much he was stepping on them or hitting them). So another session or two on the mechanics of your hand position will get more independent foot movement, so you can add 1 bar, then 2 bars, etc.
Strike a pose threadles: He is definitely doing well here too, in both directions!
My only suggestion would be to try to get your threadle arm/hand in position and then use the release word, so he is not releasing on any hand motion and so he sees the hand before he starts to move.That way he will get used to the hand being out and also he will read the cue earlier. For example, at :59 – based on where he was lined up (super close to the jump) and what he could see, and the release coming just before the hand movement… he was correct to take the front of the bar because by the time he saw the hand, he was already at the front. So having the hand fully out there before the release will totally help eliminate that question.
Head turns – he is wrapping really nicely! He seems to understand to make the turn. so now we can isolate the head turns even more. 2 things to remember about the mechanics:
– always start him at your side to send him to the first wrap, and move your hands slowly to cue the 2nd wrap (you were moving a bit too quickly at the end of the 2nd video, so he was not sure if he should wrap or not)
– click the instant he turns his head, which will end up being when he arrives at the pole or barrel (you were tending to click when he was finished with the wrap)Those 2 details will smooth out his questions – when he wasn’t lined up at your side, he was not always sure when to start or which way to go around the barrel.
360 circle wraps with countermotion – no problem at all with the toy! And he also did well with the good in the 2nd video!
On this skill, try to use a marker like get it and not ‘yay’ or yes. The yes marker is drawing him to your hands (like at :14) and doesn’t tell him to look at the ground for the reward. The more you can use the get it so he doesn’t look at your hands, the easier it will be to add more independence.Have you decided what your backside circle wrap verbal will be? It is time to add it! Yay! On the 3rd video, you were using “go” but we can replace the go with the backside wrap verbal.
For now, keep moving slowly on these. When you started adding more speed, he had some trouble so dial back your speed for now to work the countermotion. Ideally, you will be passing the barrel as he is beginning his turn and that is HARD!! He didn’t struggle when you stayed on what would be he landing side if it was a jump, but we want you to be able to be on the takeoff side so stay in motion but move slowly. And keep throwing the reward back behind you with the ‘get it’ marker here too, so he doesn’t look at you as you add more countermotion – I think the “yay” markers were part of his question because it means “reward from hand to him”, so if you said it too soon as you were trying to pass the barrel, he would come to your hands. The ‘get it’ and tossing it to the landing side (if a bar was there :)) will help him understand to complete the wrap even if you are past the barrel.
Backside slice foundation – this is also going well!!! One detail – be sure to be moving up the line before he starts to move, so you can set the line with motion (rather than release and move at the same time). It doesn’t make a huge difference on the easy angles as we start this skill, but when you working the harder levels and are further across the bar, it becomes very important to set the line with motion so he doesn’t think it is a front side. So while he is in the sit, start moving and while you are moving, you can release with his back verbal like you did in the 2nd video.
In the 2nd video you changed placement so he is not doing a 360 wrap on the barrel, that was good! The back slice is not the same as the 360, so the 2nd video was much better placement when you dropped reward on the landing side of the bar. Super!
Nice front side balance at the end of the first video!!
And to keep building up the independence, I suggest using your ‘get it’ marker here too, so when he is correct he knows to not look at your hands for rewards.
Great job on these! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
