Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Some screenshots for you!
I grabbed a couple of spots where she was at her decision point near the prop (close enough to it to be setting up how to turn on the exit) and you are still on the original side, so she was correct to turn back to where she last saw you. Compare them to 2 screenshots from the demo where Elektra is at the decision point, and I am more fully on the other side of her before she arrives at the prop:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bBE1QvFo9JnrqWj7CWPPXvf3vl5HOQwPUiU3Pk42tec/edit?usp=sharing
Let me know what you think!
TracyHi! Some answers for you:
>>Ladder work – would an actual ladder be okay to use? We have part of an old extension ladder so it is one piece and low to the ground. I will also work on just sending her forward with a quiet get it or a preplaced treat.>>
Yes, a real ladder is good as long as it is stable. You will want to start it back and forth through the middle and dropping the treats in, rather than sending her through or pre-placing the treat.
>>Questions – I know that there are times we should mark the behavior with a Yes or click and I think I am fuzzy on when to do it and when not to do it. Is there a type of behavior that you would use the Yes/click and a type that you would not, or is this more dog/handler specific to Caper and me.>>
For now, you can take the clicker out entirely. Clickers are best for tiny slices of behavior like a surgeon’s scalpel… these behaviors are definitely not that LOL!!!! So, no need to click – the problem with clickers is that it is very very easy to build in the pup looking at us.
And the ‘yes’ marker really should only be used if you plan to deliver the treat from your hand, right in front of you, when it is fine for her to also look at you. Other than that, use markers that also imply the placement.
>>For the part where I shouldn’t have food in my dog hand, is this after they are understanding the movement of the hands/arms in turning them?>>
Yes, but that is easy for them as long as you hold your hand as if you have a cookie in it, and you look at the hand.
>>Finally, in teaching the lap and tandem turns would you ever use a preplaced cookie/toy, would you ever throw a toy instead of a cookie?>>
No to the preplaced toy – this is a handling move, so I need to get feedback from the dog to know if I am doing it right. A placed reward takes that feedback out. And I would throw a toy as the reward as long as the pup was able to ignore it to get the turn.
>> I recently listened to a podcast about agility training where they mentioned that “what you learned first is what you learned best” and I think I have had a long time to cement certain behaviors in my handling that I am now trying to change.>>
Thankfully, I disagree with this!!! Yes,we all have habits we need to un-wire but those are just habits, not cement 🙂 We have all evolved a lot in our handling and training, so thankfully we are not stuck with what we learned first 🙂
Have fun!
TracyHi! Hope you had a good weekend!
The zig zags are looking good!! My only suggestion is to pay super close attention to the mechanics, because she sure does and it changes her jumping:
Rep 1 – perfect line up and toy placement, her jumping was super clean and nice!
rep 2 – she touched the last bar because you were holding the toy so she didn’t know where to look as she was over the bar. So keep the toy on the ground.
rep 3 – I couldn’t see you or the toy, but her line up was different at and the 2nd bar came down
rep 4 – looked good!
rep 5 – She was in the same line up spot as rep 3 and she ticked first bar. Compare to her line up in reps 3 and 5 to her line up in rep 1 at :01. all 3 reps are going the same direction, but in rep 1 she is up next to the wing and her feet are parallel to just behind the foot of jump 1. On reps 3 and 5, she is a little closer to the center of the bar and her front feet are past the foot of jump 1, so be really picky about putting her in that exact spot with her feet behind the foot of jump 1.You can start to add the moving target to these, I think they are all stationary target. And you can show her the backside with 2 jumps as well, with the target placed out ahead past the last jump.
On the organizers:
>>but she’s getting into the slow-Mo sit thing >>
I think things got unpredictable so she lost her sit while trying to figure out where to look. Definitely keep your position and the reward position very predictable on these so she can think about her booty 🙂
What was straight out ahead on the first couple of reps that she was staring at? A toy, I think? That could be part 2 of this class – organize even if something is out ahead (but then the reward would not be straight ahead). LOL! But having a toy straight out ahead would indicate extension to her, which might be why she was confused. She got better when there was nothing directly ahead of her.
At :21 and :46 when you were facing her, you said “ok” and looked at where you were throwingg the toy, and then moved to throw it… so she was correct because there was no actual cue to take the jump. Compare it to :25 where you indicated the landing spot and looked at the landing spot a bit, that was the cue to jump. She did well when you did that on the other reps too!
She had a similar question at 1:03 where you were doing a post turn but looked away and turned away without supporting the jump. Same at 1:11, where I think the reward was off to the side to?
Compare to the post turn at 1:30 (last rep) where you were connected, the toy was in a good spot, and she knew what to do.
The other variable that changed and might’ve been causing some of the questions was your distance away from the jump – even when you were facing her, it cues enough extension that she might have been asking questions about producing the wrap collection. And at 1:15, 1:19, and 1:20 you are far enough away from the jump and facing the forward to the extension line… so sitting was really hard because the extension cue would not have her collect close to the bar like that. These are valid points from our Border Collie friend LOL! So when you are on the landing side and want the wrap collection, always be facing her and super close to the jump so you positional cue helps indicate the collection.Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi again!
On the prop send video: this had a little more interaction before the send and was less of a continuous loop so she had a clearer cue and better prop hits! Yay! That created a lot more speed, which is also good! And it also means that the prop needs to be better anchored – it was moving out from under her and causing her to slide and splay a bit. So you can put a yoga mat on the underside so it has more grip, or attach it to something heavy so it doesn’t move at all.Also, clarify the markers for the reward here, so as she hits the prop you can tell her specifically where the reward will be. I did hear you say “bite” a couple of times for the toy, which is great! But there were mostly “yes good girl” and he is ready for you to now be clearer and use “bite” for the toy in your hand or ‘get it’ for the cookie tosses.
Retrieving is going well too – you can start to hide the 2nd toy for longer now so she retrieves more steps towards you before she sees the 2nd toy. And also entice her back to you by moving away immediately, so she sees the fun chase game starting as soon as she gets to the toy.
One thing I notice here is that she is she is splatting herself on the retrieves (sliding, crashing a bit, etc) which might be part of why she needed a lap at about 1:00. We don’t want her to break herself, so you can switch to a bigger toy that is much easier to scoop up like a giant hollee roller or jolly ball. Also, you can hold her til it lands then let her go, that might help her not splat herself? And if that doesn’t help, shorten up the distance so she is not working up as much speed.
Nice work!
TracyHi again!
>.So… we have pesky doors, gates, xpens and crates etc around here that WILL NOT open unless all dog butts are on the ground, LOL!
This is a good life skill!!!!
>>I’ll start to transition this to barrier-less stays, and
try to incorporate the marker “Catch” to let Prytania know to remain where she is, because the reward is being throw back to her (but she can leave a control position to get it) 😉>> Perfect, and use toys too, so she can learn to do this when she is really jazzed up 🙂
>>She already learned praise marker “good!” on this behavior to mark a moment without necessarily presenting a primary reinforcement>>
Great! On this clip, the primary is the yard access as you mentioned so cookies and toys are not needed. But you can also toss a cookie back to her to help her get the ‘catch’ concept! And it helps develop the stay: the exciting activity like going outside (or eventually going through a jump or over a tunnel) is cool, but it is also really exciting to stay where you are becaue cookies and toys rain down from the sky 🙂
>>Now the dilemma is that I have used the marker “Break!” to mean that she can break her sit and go thru the door, which is the primary reward because she really really loves to go outside. BUT I love your meaning ‘leave your position and drive towards me’ – SO now to decide if I use a different marker for doors gates and crates (free?) and save Break! for driving forward to me or to an appropriate obstacle….>>
I think you can use break for both, for two reasons:
– with the door, she is still involving you. So by “drive towards me” it is more of a “do the thing I am asking you to do near me” like take the line of jumps on a lead out, or go through the door you are holding open.
– dogs are brilliant with context, so the break word can be used in these different-but-similar contexts and she will be fine 🙂 I don’t think she will be frustrated at all. You are *welcome* to add a different word, but you don’t need to. I use “break” the same way you do and my dogs are fine with it.Tracy
Hi! Hope you had a good weekend and I am glad your hip is feeling better!
The plank on the ground and the plank on the steps looks good! The plank on the fitbones was much much harder because it was so unstable – note how much she and the board were shaking 🙂 so stabilize that more with some towels or maybe the fitbone under one end, so she has an easier time on it.
She was very confident to get on the plank, which is great! You can slow down the cues to ask her to turn around on it – the spin is only intended for body awareness not speed, and she was falling off a bit when you wee asking her to go fast. She did well with the position changes! And tugging is a little hard because the plank is so narrow, that might work better on a wider/bigger wobble board where she has more room to shift her weight.
Good job adding a lot more distance to the parallel path prop game! The get it totally helps! So now two more things to add:
– add more connection in the form of looking at her, especially when she is on your right side. When she is on your right and you are looking forward and not at her, she tends to bend away and look at you more. When she is on your left, she is straighter to the prop. This could be that she is more comfy working on your left. Connection on your right will help build up that comfy-ness too.
– say get it and throw sooner, before she looks back at you. Basically, you are marking her *intent* to hit the prop so she might still be a stride in front of it. You were marking the hit, but then she was looking at you (no place else to look once she has hit it :)) . So by marking the intent, she won’t look at you at all which is good, because we don’t want her looking at you 🙂 This might mean she doesn’t hit the prop perfectly, and that is fine! This game is not really about perfect foot targeting, it is more about committing to a line.
The rear crosses are definitely going better! Yay!!! She had a very high success rate on these!!! Two things that will help even more:
you can move faster (like you did on the last rep here). Just be sure that you don’t make a big decel, because that caused her to look at you.
also, start closer to her, right next to her, you can even start with your hand on her collar, If you are a couple of feet laterally away from her, then you have to work harder to get the RC>.Should I start crossing at more of a 90 degree angle, or anything else I should do?>>
No need to add more of an angle, you can just add more speed 🙂 and use a toy reward!
Countermotion: she is doing well here! We can adjust some mechanics to make it even smoother and more independent:
Remember that this is not a continuous loop 🙂 You want to add that ready moment and stop her motion before each send. You did that at :25, for example but she was in continuous motion on most of the other reps. The reasoning behind this is to give the pups a very clear “and now you start” moment so the behavior is driving to the prop is much crisper and faster like at 1:52 when she was stopped in front of you and you gave a clear indication to send her.
As you build up more countermotion, you should dial back the excitement of running away. You were stationary then explosive, so she was wanting to go to the explosive movement. Try to just be walking away, slooooowly, as she is moving to the prop and then just keep walking. If chasing you is more exciting than going to the prop, you will end up having to stand still til she hits it. So, think of your motion as a slow moving sliiiiiide away, rather than a running moment. That will allow you to leave sooner and sooner.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi! This session went really well!!!
I think the reward of the 2nd toy really helped her bring back the first toy! I think it gives the pups a feeling of security, perhaps, that we are not going to take the toy away 🙂 And you let her win sometimes too, which is great! The next step is to move away from her and don’t show her the 2nd toy quite as early: that way she will start to move towards you for at least a couple of steps, then you present the 2nd toy. We will keep building up the # of steps she takes before that 2nd toy comes out, to eventually have it where she brings it all the way back.
>> She is offering the down so I went with it and didn’t mess with her collar.
That was good! She was very happy with that! Just be sure to release her from the down, so she doesn’t release herself when you throw the toy. Release her before you throw or as you throw, because she is likely to release herself and we don’t want to create frustration with that.
>> (Jump wings pushed together so I don’t lose their location.)
Perfect! She did not have any jumps on her line here. Yay!
Great job!
TracyHi! Super nice session, he is doing really well with an incredibly hard skill!
You can still be closer to the prop to start the sends, especially at the beginning of a session. I think you were a little too far away at first. We don’t want to add distance on the send until after he blasts away to the prop as fast as he runs to chase you and the toy 🙂
The other thing that will really help is if you stand still when you say ready ready, and look at his eyes for about 3 full seconds (with your hands in front of you and your feet together) before you send, then let him see you shift from looking at him to looking at the prop when you send at the same time as you point with your arm and leg. Make that a very clear moment and he will send sooner and faster. On this session, you were going very quickly to looking at the prop, so he had to think it over for a while.
The reps at 1:54 and 2:13 were good examples of looking at him, then shifting your connection to the prop, he had the fewest questions on those. He was a bit far from the prop, though, so use this connection shift and add in being one big step closer to the prop and I think it will be perfect!!
Great job on these! Let me know what you think!
TracyToy races look really good! Definitely improved!!! He is getting really fast!!!
>>this is revisit to Race Game He was sensitive to my movement behind>>
I think his questions were about what you were saying:
He did really well wen you had a clear “get it”, no questions. He had trouble when you were saying “go go get it”, lots of looking at you. So since we need to add the Go verbals, we can emphasize the Go verbals for now and add back the motion later on:
have him wear a collar or non-restrictive harness when you play this, so you have a better hold of him. While you are holding him, toss the toy and keep holding him (don’t let go as quickly). Then the toy lands, say “go! go! go!” then let go – keep saying go, but you will be walking forward so he drives ahead. When he is happy to drive ahead with you using the verbal go go go, then we can get you running faster like when you were saying ‘get it’.Nice work!!!
TracyHi! Hope you had a good weekend!
He is doing well here in terms of confidence, but I think things are moving too fast so he was losing his feet 🙂 As you were moving faster, he was moving faster and not thinking about staying on the line of stuff all the time or maintaining his balance. And when you had your hand in front of his nose, he was totally not thinking about his feet, just about getting cookies in his belly LOL! So I think the toy is too stimulating to use by itself: use cookie rewards and reward him every couple of steps across the line of stuff, not trying to go fast, just trying to get him walking and balancing on each object – then break off the game and throw the toy to keep him pumped up about the game. Then after a little play, go back across the line of objects using cookie rewards every couple of steps.Nice work!
TracyHi!
The lap turns on the flat without the prop looked great – note how when you said “get it” she did NOT look at you!So looking at when you added the prop, 3 things were happening that were causing her to look at you:
– “”I may have not have it placed well” – yes, it was off her line so she was not sure if she should go to it or not
– also, I think you had a cookie in your hand so she was locked onto the cookie? When adding the prop, the turn hand is empty and the cookie is in the other hand.
– and, as you moved forward to the prop, note your hand position and eyes at :15. :21, :38 …. that is 100% a cue to heel an walk with you, even if it is not formally trained (because we ALL do that when we want the pups to walk with us). So… she offered beautiful heeling 🙂
At :32 :46 :50, I don’t know if your dog-side hand was empty but you most definitely were not looking like you were heeling, so she was MUCH better about looking for the prop.
also stop saying yes – that builds in the looking at you. That is probably the most important thing right now, in terms of getting her to NOT look at you: use the get it markers for tossed treats and not any more yes markers. The other thing to add here is to time the reinforcement (“get it” and toss) to mark her intention to go to the prop and toss before she arrives at it, like I mentioned above in the rear cross suggestions. She does not have to hit the prop, we can prioritize looking forward for now!
Tandem turns: she is turning away nicely, so all of the suggestions to get her to NOT look at you can apply here too:
say get it when you toss, and not yes or good or oops (you tend to say oops a lot when it is your error and not hers, and we don’t want to build up a punishment marker. Just say get it and toss to where you want her to be when that happens, then adjust the next rep for success).And when the prop is added in, definitely say get it then toss before she looks at you. If you watch her after she turns away here, especially on the last 2 reps: she is looking forward for a nice long time, and you were not giving the heeling cue by accident 🙂 But then she arrives at the prop and there is nothing else to look at… so she looks at you and it is in that moment that you say yes and toss the treat. So it accidentally marks the looking at you as correct. Instead, as you move forward, see her heading to the prop, even if it is just one step: and say ‘get it’ and toss the treat way forward past the prop. That will get her looking forward! And remember, touching the prop is not important 🙂
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
On the leg bumps, trotting for the cookies looked good!
for the toy, she was bouncing which is good! One thing that will help here is if you hold her collar with one hand then place the toy on the other side of your legs, then let he rgo. That way the toy is stationary so she can think more about her movement.The cavalettis here are a little different in approach than a ladder, which is tighter and lower. But on the cavalettis, it is equally important that she does not look at you, and keeps her head lower and straighter. You can see she was turning her head to look at you as she was doing them and we don’t want to build that in. Here are a couple of ways to get rid of looking at you:
– don’t use a yes marker because it gets her looking at you. Any treat tossed ahead should be a quiet ‘get it’ marker.
– drop rewards in between the rungs before she looks at you (this is more about the ladder, if you have access to a ladder).
– for cavalettis, I prefer to use targets at both ends so she trots to the target an that is where I toss or place the treat. If you do that, use only 2 cavalettis (not 4) to introduce the concept and the get it marker to toss the treat).>.don’t know if I should stay at this for a while or raise the bars.>>
Stay at this level and ideally lower the bars because we don’t want them higher than her wrists for now. Also, as cavaletti bars get higher, the distance changes based on the shoulder height of the dog, but that is really more for adult dogs and not puppies 🙂
Nice work!
TracyHi!
The rear crosses are definitely better because you were earlier on the successful ones (the ones that were not successful were late :)) You might need more room to do these, because this distance was too small to be consistently on time. Maybe try going across the training room diagonally?But, I think the parallel path game is the key to the rear crosses, so let’s focus on that! It is not a value issue, the prop has lots of value. She wants to look at you very much on the parallel path game because you are seeing her hit the prop and then marking and then throwing. So she is able to watch you throw… so now she is building in watching you. So let’s change the timing of the throw: say get it and throw while she is on her way to the prop and NOT looking at you. You will be marking her intention to go to it and not the actual hit. Mark it with the get it and toss the reward past it. I don’t really care if she hits it perfectly or not right now – the prop is just a construct that will be replaced by a jump. The use of the prop allows us to sort out any questions before we go to the jump: and her question here is watching you a lot. So, we change what we reward and when we reward it 🙂
When she watches you less, the rear crosses will also be much easier. When you did the RCs, you were using “yes” and “good” as markers – both of which cause dogs to look at us because they generally imply that the reinforcement is coming from our hands. So be consistent and use the get it marker, so she keeps looking ahead.
Nice work!
TracyGood morning! Hope you had a good weekend!
The catch game is looking good! She definitely has an understanding of stays already. and that helps. One thing to change:
Don’t yes and feed from your hand right away when she sits: the sit is the start of the game and many, many puppies make errors when we feed before we lead out because they think the cookie is the end of the game, so they get up and make an error. Plus it is harder to transition the game to cookie-free moments in the ring because they are conditioned to receive the cookie in position the instant they sit. So, think of the sit as the start to the stay game and the reinforcement as the end of the stay game… so the reinforcement is delivered at the end, not the beginning, in the form of the catch toss back to her, or the release forward to you rather than when she sits at the beginning of the game.Also, you can now replace backing away from her with facing the direction you want to go, like a lead out, but maintaining connection so you can see what she is doing 🙂
And I also recommend playing this same exact game with toys, so she can work this stay skill in a higher arousal state 🙂
Great job!
Tracy
