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Hi!
I agree, she did really well here!!!
She should be on the same side on all approaches (left side on this setup) so the first couple of reps where she was on your right were not quite the same challenge. But when you moved the wing, you kept her on your left for all reps and that was great! She had a harder time leaving you to move away to the tunnel, so you added a little bit of handling help. That was perfect! In the next couple of sessions, try to fade the handling help and see if she can do it with just one step of help, and then eventually only verbals.
Nice work!!!
TracyHi!
>>Yes, very low frustration tolerance!!
I think that a key would be to use an immediate reset marker where she comes back to get a cookie to try again – that can really help reduce frustration while building up a calmer response when things are not perfect.
>>I’ll have to break out some really yummy treats for the lazy tunnel game… Would I play that game separately from the discrimination game so the tunnel is just by itself? If so, I might add the Manners Minder back in so she doesn’t have to work for the cookie by getting it out of the toy. I think she prefers that.>>
Try it separately from the discrimination work, to pump up the value of the tunnel. You can use the MM but fade it quickly from the tunnel exit because the MM might be too much of a cue – want the tunnel to be the cue 🙂 You can just throw big visible treat chunks rather than a lotus ball, I figure she will like that 🙂
If getting the food out of the lotus ball is not a good feeling for her, then definitely take it out – she ran off after a lotus ball reward early in the video here. Big chunks of treats for the win! Yes, there might be fewer reps but that is fine because I would prefer several high value reps over tons of medium value reps.
Looking at the video – she was doing well when she was on your left and even finding the independent line to the tunnel! If possible, shorten up the tunnel so it is easier for her to run through when you want it, and easier to see past it when yo uare on the other side trying to show her the jump.
She had a harder time on the other side, when passing the tunnel to see the jump. Maybe it is the visual of the tunnel is so big that i twas hard to process the jump cue? Or maybe her brain was already challenged enough from the other side 🙂 and this side needs it own separate day for training LOL! You can help with more motion, and you can also reward more approximations of going near the jump, even if it is the other side – the criteria can be “anything that is near the jump and not the tunnel” 🙂
And definitely add a reset marker/cookie. After about 1:30, she was frustrated and had a bunch of failures, and got barky then took off. The reset marker/cookies will really help this while buying you a moment to think of an adjustment to make, and will also help get rid of the moments when she is facing you and barking.
So when you cue a rep – if she has a question and you are not planning to throw a reinforcement, call her back immediately, give a cookie at your side and line up again (helping her more, if she needs it). The reset marker and cookie should be very consistent, happen every time, no change in demeanor from the humans 🙂
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning, thanks for this – it is a GREAT example of an AKC jump-tunnel discrim!!!!
>>After reading your feedback from today, I’m thinking I was too pointy & lost connection!>>
Yes, too pointy with too much motion and that off course tunnel was 10000% on her line. I suggest for her a “brake” arm (small use of opposite arm) to get collection and a ‘left’ verbal. And we have backside versus tunnel exercises coming up that will help that!
Let me know if you need a brake arm video 🙂
>>I’m noticing that I lack the eye contact connection that I see you have in your videos. I am relying on my hand/arm to direct her, but there is really no connection there.>>
The eye contact is what turns our shoulders/chest to the line and also the eye contact allows the dogs to see our shoulders/chest… so it can be super clarifying for dogs in terms of where to go. The low arm which is back towards her will help open up that connection.
T
Good morning!
>>(BTW, we got kudos on his sends and my layering today in class!!!!)>>
Yay! So fun!!!!
And yes, the wind was nuts yesterday!!
The main tweak I have for you on these is to throw the rewards and not having him come back to you for all the rewards. By having him come to you, he goes a little too much into handler focus so you have to handle more. To create more distance and not have to run as hard, you can throw the rewards and he will happily drive the lines without you.
First video:
He did really well with the first handling exercises! All 3 positions of the wing looked great!
>>Sorry I didn’t properly figure out the width of the view we needed, but you can hear me and see him execute. >>
Ha! No worries, we see all the important parts and I can see your shadows during the line up 🙂
Be sure to delay any praise til after he has really committed to the obstacle – when you say “YES!” he looks at you, and that pulls him off the line when he is working at a distance (like at 1:57). You can replace “yes” with “get it” and throw the reward, so he doesn’t look at you and instead looks at his line 🙂 You got closer to the tunnel on the next rep but I don’t think he needed you to get closer – he just needs to know to finish the tunnel because the reward will be thrown and not handed to him from you 🙂
The second video is also looking good! On the first couple of reps, he needed one more step or two for the jump past the tunnel (like you did at :40, that was strong) when he was successful and only one step to the tunnel. You were really good with supporting the line whenever he got the extra step or two. It was good to go past the tunnel entry to help him find the jump on the other side. Now on the next session, we want to fade that a little bit and work towards you sending him all the way past the tunnel without you needing to also go past the tunnel. The key to that will be throwing the ball 🙂 You will have fewer reps because it takes longer to get he ball back, but the quality of the reps will be super high and get more distance even quicker.
>>And I can see where those will definitely require me to forget my years of trialing with my girlie (now retired) where I used those arms just like that…….>>
Yes, course design has evolved so we need to use our arms differently, plus young dogs need extra supersized connection early in their careers (and later on, arm use won’t matter as much :))
Great job!!! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>>Caught myself on tape saying “nope” a few times and using “yes” instead of “get it”. No cookies for me>>
You can let a ‘nope’ slip in now and then as long as she still gets reset cookies. That way “nope” means “come here, line up for the cookie, try again” rather than “you are wrong”.
And I think we all throw in “YES!” instead of get it when things go really well LOL!
Good job with the wing in the first position – the verbal on the wing helped her too, which is great because it helped her know where to look sooner.
Position 2 – You mentioned something about a late response to the tunnel cue and yes, the late response to the tunnel cue on rep 1 (and on rep 1 & 2 of position 3) were both processing delays and show us how hard this game was LOL! She needed to run AND process the verbal really fast… and sometimes only processed it after she took the closer obstacle. But then she got it right and did really well!! I can totally relate to “hearing” something *after* I had made a decision when I am also trying to move fast LOL!
On the other side (dog on right, passing the tunnel to find the jump) she did well too – she was being thoughtful and you were helping with a little handling support too. And yes, when your handling says one thing and verbals say the opposite, and she guesses incorrectly – you can reward her with a reset reward. That also helps the dogs handle us and not get frustrated when we mess up, because we humans mess up LOL!!
>> I want to revist this direction and try the other direction too. Which do you recommend as next step, revisit this direction or change directions ?>>
I would wait a day (latent learning) and maybe do handling challenges – then come back to this direction and see if latent learning kicked in. That way the other direction will be easy because it is more about the concept than the actual sequence.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning! Lots of good stuff here 🙂
>>The last few days we worked on Project Unpairing. For the most part, I did better in isolating the verbal release and movement.>>
Yes, the unpairing looked a lot better and the release was more distinct for sure. Plus he got lots of rewards for staying even after you got into serp position. Perfect!
The wing wraps on the actual wings look good, he seemed to have no trouble making the concept transfer. Super!!! You can delay the ‘get it’ and showing the reward til he is fully around the wing, because he pushes the wing sometimes on his rush to get the toy when you tell him he can have it.
On the serps section:
He was reading the serps really well when released. Yay! He was having a little trouble getting back on the toy after the food rewards – right now I think food might be overbalancing the toy play. So you can use the toy a whole lot more to replace the food rewards. So on the serps, a toy can be thrown back to reward the stay, and you can also reward the serp with a toy. That will keep more engagement too because he won’t take a few seconds to find the treat and the sniff around for more.
When you looked at the landing and your hand, he was great with the serps – two little bloopers at 3:36 and 4:15 where you kept looking at him instead of shifting the connection to your hand & the landing spot under it, The release should look more like what you did at 5:13, that was great!
At 5:38 you went to wing wraps as part of the serp session, and I think he needs things to be more distinct as in “we are doing the serp game now” then take a break then come back later for “and now we wrap the wing”. That will help him shift gears.
And when you do the wraps, be sure to let him see the whole wing – you are tending to block the line to it by standing where he needs to be,. then trying to get him to cut in front of you. And example is at 5:59 and he was confused because he didn’t see the wing, especially with the motion pressure of you moving forward. On the wing wraps, you should be on the other side of the wing so he can see the whole thing 🙂
Nice work here!! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
>>I was saying his left and right verbals. I’m just like the Seinfeld Close Talker only a Low Talker. I also say them several times before I release him but I think you’re saying to say them the entire time he is in motion?>>
Yes – keep saying them because there is a left r right turn the entire time. And say them like you would on course, don’t be the Close Talker LOL! You need to be more like George or Kramer.
>>Should I keep up with the mini pinwheel? Open up the wings at all?
You can give it a rest til MaxPup 2 – no need to open up the wings.
>>Speaking of Da Verbals, I forget whether I should be using them on the serps and threadles.
For the serps right now, you can just use the stay release. And yes, add the threadle slice verbal to the threadles.
Tracy
Hi! I like everything I see here on the video!
The serps looked almost perfect – nice stay, nice angles, nice turning. yay! He only had one blooper (:36 when you changed sides) and I think the change of sides PLUS throwing the toy after he was in the sit PLUS you were not looking at your hand/landing spot – all of that was too much in terms of variable changes so he missed the jump til you called him to it. So each time you change a big variable (like going to a new side), start by making the other elements easier for now. You can add more motion now, moving a little faster across the jump! You were walking, so see if you can build it up to a slow jog. If that is too challenging for the stay, have someone hold him.
His decels looked great, I like how he is powering into the wrap! He is turning tight without losing speed in and out of the turn. Plus he seems to think that “boring” wraps/decel is SUPER FUN lol! Yay! We add to this game in MaxPup 2, so you can maybe revisit it once a week til then.
He did super well with the minny pinny!! Your attention to mechanics looked strong and he was bending really nicely!
Were you saying the verbals (left/right) on the minny pinny? I think maybe I heard you say left once? LOL! You can definitely add them, and repeat them as he is doing the minny pinny. There are 2 reasons to keep saying them:
– to name the turn on each bar and the exit
– to get him used to hearing things over the bars and not finding the to be distracting.You can also turn and start walking the opposite direction sooner, to help build up even more countermotion on these soft turns.
Great job on all of these! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
Tis is definitely a hard game! I think he was relying on line of motion a lot, so we can make some adjustments to help him out for sure! Some ideas for you:>> I want to figure out how to help him be more successful after he misses one>>
After he has an error, I recommend having him come to your side for a reset cookie so you can line him up for the next rep. What was happening after the errors was that was was barking at you a lot and staying in motion, or then you were having him do multi-wraps – so all of that was super arousing and maybe a bit frustrating for him, which was not conducive to helping him lock into the smaller details like verbals. The reset cookie will help him breath while also reducing frustration – and allowing you to line him up while also buying time to figure out what to do on the next rep 🙂 Those reset cookies are gold for keeping the umbrella rate of success high, which keeps the frustration level down when the skill is really hard.
The other tweak to try is to separate the jump and tunnel a bit so there is more like 6 -8 feet between them. And, rather than peel off to the side of one or the other, your handling path will take you between the two obstacles on every rep:
for example, if he starts on your left you can send to the wing then FC to cue the tunnel, or send to the wing and spin to start the cue to the jump – and your line of motion will be relatively the same for both. On the video, your handling path was sometimes blocking the jump or blocking the tunnel, so he didn’t know where to look.That allows you to use connection and verbal to help him look for more than motion (because motion won’t hold the answers here LOL!)
And keep the connection nice and strong so when you are running fast and way ahead, he can use it to override the speed/arousal.
>>Nexus definitely struggles with the disconnect especially>>
The disconnection game will definitely work better if your line is between the two obstacles, and to start it you should be walking (running and disconnection together will be too hard at first). If he struggles with complete disconnection, you can do to ‘weak’ connection first, where he only sees maybe half of your cheek 🙂
One more suggestion – repeat your obstacle verbals. You were saying the jump verbal only once, but it will help him if you say it a few times to help him process (as long as you make it sound different than the tunnel cue :))
Nice work here! Let me know how he does!
TracyHi!
He definitely likes the layering to the tunnel here, no problem at all!
You can move the start wing further away so you have more room to cue the tunnel and peel away, to see if he will continue to the tunnel on his own (I think he will).>>To get the backside I had to stay pretty close to the jump.>>
You did a really good job helping him out with the backsides, both with physical cues and makng the verbal sound really different. Yay! The next step would be to start moving yourself over, so the start wing is more in line with the exit wing of the backside, and you can be moving up the line towards the center of the bar of the jump, for both the tunnel cue and the backside cue. That will add more challenge to both, but a lot more independence as well which will make things easier on the big courses.
Great job here!! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
I think this session went great!!! There are a lot of handling options and it looked like he always got to the correct obstacle on the correct side (and some good Lizzo in the background too :))
For most of the challenges here (like sending to the tunnel or doing the blind between the jump and the tunnel) you can add more handler speed – try to start right next to him and the wing and run as fast as you can (which is pretty fast!) That will challenge him to pay attention to the verbals and connection, even when there is a LOT of motion.
>> Our backsides are still not independent and we haven’t worked the 360 wraps a lot so the turn is pretty wide to pull him off the tunnel.
The backside after the blind looked great and he did really well with the threadle slices too! For the threadle wrap, you can add more decel and turn him away on the flat a little more before you indicate the jump. It is a good skill to work on because it is becoming SUPER popular on course nowadays!
Since all this went well and you have room – leave the tunnel/jump close together like they were here, but spread the wing and start jump out so there is a lot more room to run run run! You can challenge him to read all of these cues when there is a lot more motion and excitement 🙂
Nice work!
TracyHappy Mardi Gras!!!! Great tunes here too 🙂
He did well on this first video – primarily he had to learn when to go past an obstacle to find another one (layering!) which was making steam come out of his ears a bit LOL!
>>With every sequence. He was telling me “I know what I’m doing, you don’t need to help.”>>
On the first few reps when he was on your left side, there was possibly too much handling help so that when the angle got really hard, he was still reading handling and had a couple of errors.
>>I ended up holding the collar to get him to listen to the verbals before I sent him.>>
Yes, this helped and also when you did that, you helped a little less with the handling/motion.
Ideally your handling path/line of motion is basically identical to minimize your motion – this is what happened on the last couple of dog-on-left reps and then you were handling a little less on the dog on right reps, so he was successful! Super! So you can revisit this and try to stay on the other side of the obstacle he would have to pass to find the other, stepping in as little as needed.Nice work!!
Tracy
Hi!
I am glad you had a great weekend!!
>>I only lost her to 1 tunnel trap >>
Do you have a map of this course? I am curious to see where she was tempted by the off course tunnel gremlins 🙂
She did really well on the Combo sequences! She had zero questions about whether you wanted the jump or tunnel – nice work!!!!!
>> I lost her to the wrong end of the tunnel quite a few times on #5. >>
Aha! This is GREAT to have on video! I took some screenshots but here is what was happening:
When you wanted to do the send to the tunnel, you were decelerating (which is fine) but then you were turning your feet and shoulders to the wrong end of the tunnel. You were connected, you could see her – but you were also pointing to the tunnel entry you wanted which blocked connected and turned your body to the wrong entry.You can see 3 photos here – the first and 3rd photos were when she took the wrong entry, and on the 2nd one she went to correct entry. Note how your feet/shoulders/chest were pointing to the wrong entry on photos 1 and 3, but your feet/shulders/chest were pointing to the correct entry on photo 2!
So to help her consistently get the correct tunnel entry on the sends: point less at the tunnel, and focus the cue more on her. What I mean by that is to keep your arm low, make BIG eye contact with her, and point out to the line you want her to take rather than at the tunnel entry ahead of her (which is what was causing too much rotation of the body cue).
That will end up looking like photo 4 (:55) where you were wanting to drive in more but actually you ended up in about the same place but with a much clearer cue: note how your eyes are on her, your hand is pointing to her, and that lines up feet/shoulders/chest to the correct tunnel entry. She is looking straight at it. Yay!
Here is the link to the screenshots:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KIcMA13JQ7b-Pb1afhdNNXYUp1jZaF7MQToGsaYiGxY/edit?usp=sharingLet me know if that makes sense, everything else looked fabulous!
>>I looked ahead at the Week 2 games and we do not have a very strong/advanced threadle like the one pictured in the videos. Should I substitute a different move there?
You can try it with a bit of rotation on the threadle, where you rotate your feet too?
Great job here!
TracyHi!
He was such a good boy here, this is a hard game for sure!!! Yay! He had a lot of successes and was also very good about working independently of motion!
>>. It’s hard because I’ve always used a non-reward marker to let him know the exercise wasn’t correct and we need to try again. He and my other corgis were never very sensitive, so it never seemed to bother them. Is using non-reward markers too much? >>
I think that non-reward markers are the same as markers for negative punishment (which is withdrawing the availability of positive reinforcement, aka non-reward). So the dogs often lose a little ‘oomph’ with a non-reward marker because it tells them they are wrong without any real help on what t odo next. So try to replace them with a quick reset, something that calls him back to line, get a reset cookie try again. The difference I see is that the dogs maintain a lot of excitement even with hard games like this, and come driving back to try again after an error, versus freezing up a bit after an error (which is what he was doing, then you can see the lost “oomph” when he didn’t want to start moving).
>> At the end, he seemed to be guessing a little, so maybe I made the session too long?>>
It could have been that it was too long (23 reps or so is a lot when it is warm outside, his tongue was hanging out) or that he needed those reset cookies to happen really quick after an error (or both LOL!). I would try both – shorter session and quick reset cookies so he keeps driving to the obtacles.
>> I think I don’t know what my verbal for “jump”
Do you have any trials videos? You will be able to hear what you say in trials and more importantly, how you say it. For example, your tunnel cue was quiet and calm – you might say it like that at trials, or it might be a bigger louder cue at trials. If it is bigger/louder, say it just like that in this game too because he is differentiating based on the rhythm, pitch, energy and word, not just the word. That would also make the jump verbal sound very different, which can help the discrimination.
>>He seemed to really understand the “Go jump” or “go go go”, but I’m not sure what I want it to be. “go go go” means go on, but maybe he has generalized it to “jump” as it usually means take all the jumps in front of you?>>
This is possible, or maybe ‘go’ is a release to move?
>> could make the verbal just “jump” but I feel like that would mean just take a single jump? >>
It is good to define it all – when I say “juuump” (a slightly long word, not too loud), it means “take this one jump on a gentle curve”. When I say “GO GO GO” it means to stay on the straight line – so “go jump” would be confusing. Plus, we often say “go” with tunnels too, which would make it harder in discriminations.
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
Most of the reps here were super strong, and we found a spot where she struggles!The strong reps on the handling 1 were when you were ahead, running, and connection. Perfect! Handling 2 was EXCELLENT because you were connected and moving, so she read things very nicely 🙂
Her struggle is finding the jump when cued when you are not connected. That is what happened at :20 – you were disconnected as she came around the wing, plus she had just done a bunch of tunnels and the verbals were sounding alike… so she ran into you. You were disconnected on the next rep (:24) so she cut behind you to the tunnel. And at the very end with the naked verbals :), she took the tunnel with no problem but took the tunnel again when you said the ‘over’ cue (although she was not looking entirely convinced that she was right.
So it is good to know that she has one area of questions – we can sort it out! To do that, I suggest the Handling 1 game where you disconnect (or use ‘weak’ connection where she only sees part of your cheek but not your eyes) and move slowly. And make the verbals sound like you did on the last two reps on this video – the tunnel verbal was higher in pitch and faster, while the over verbal was lower in pitch and slower. That was great!
Everything else looked really strong! You can take a look at the week 2 games, she is ready to start them 🙂
Great job!
Tracy
