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Hmm, that is odd, I must have deleted my reply by accident! Oops!!!
>>So at this point, don’t do threadle and serp in same session, but what about same day? Or concentrate on threadle and review serp now and then?>
The advanced level will tell you how to do both in the same session 🙂 It is perfectly fine to do that as long as the mechanics and verbals are clear.
>>I’m also doing more barrel work. Today we tried three barrels…just sending simple front crosses. At this point is that ok? Three? >>
Absolutely! You can make up your own patterns, work the mechanics, then try them with her.
>>For the tight turns, when do I add the verbal? I mean in the training progression and also graphically in the rep? >>
You can add them when you are quite sure she will go to the barrel on cue, so you can probably add them now. And start saying the verbal just before you start the send to the barrel.
About the barking:
It sounds like you had kind of a ‘perfect storm’ happening with the dumbbell exercises
– she has had a lot of training in the last few days (not a lot of bandwidth left in her)
– you added a new game to an existing game so it was new and weird and probably confusing
– you did it at a time of day when the environment was different (low light)
– you did it at a time of day when her circadian cycle was priming for sleep, not learningSo, it sounds like she was frustrated due to all of those. Based on what I have seen I n the videos, any barking at you or nipping has been frustration so be careful of what you ask her to do (small pieces, lots of reward) and when you ask her to do it (time of day does play a role!)
>>So she barks because she’s excited? She doesn’t know what I want? I’m late starting a rep or a game? >>
All of the above? Lack of clarity, not enough reinforcement – it is all the arousal and frustration. Especially the nipping at hands and face! So be sure to really keep a high rate of reinforcement and live by the 2 failure rule: if she has 2 errors in the session, you have made it too hard and need to make it easier. And if she starts to bar or nip and you don’t know why, it is fine to do something else like just throw a toy or scatter some treats in the grass for her to sniff, to bring the arousal down.
Let me know what you think!
TracyHi! These are looking really good!!!
>>Not sure why that bar keeps coming down. >>
We did see some bars on these and also that one darned bar kept coming down! I will notate why I think some of them were coming down – but sometimes it was just that there was a lot of visual processing happening so he had to multi-task and lost a bit of jumping mechanics, and on that same bar that kept coming down: it is kind of a hard turn, and all it is the end – and on the first couple of reps you tossed the slowed down, praised, and tossed the ball right as he was jumping it… so he dropped it. Then during the other runs, any time it looked like you were turning for home and dropped your arm as if throwing the toy – he dropped the bar. So to help protect those end-of-run bars, be sure to run til after he lands from the last jump, then throw the reward.
Looking at the sequences, I grouped them together:
Seq 1:
It took me a minute to realize 1 was a wing and not a jump, I as trying to figure out why he wasn’t jumping LOL!!!!
Since you were deciding wrap versus slice on 6: If 7 was a jump, a slice to the right on 6 would be better for the ending line – even on the wing, the slice is the faster line.Looking at the BC timing – very nice timing 2-3 on first rep! Definitely early on 2nd rep as you mentioned. Your window to start it is when he lands from 1 and looks at 2. You seemed to do this at :44 and it looked great!
>>I think I tried to go for a little more of a slice on that last #6, but saw it was going to be a wrap and just went with it. I wish I had tried again for that slice though!
The slice is definitely the better line – you would just need to keep him on your left and serp 5 to get it.
For the wrap, you can do the BC sooner 5-6 by seeing him look at 5 after exiting 4, that start it. You were a little late at :09 and :49 (he was over the bar of 5 when you started), which made the wrap cues late.
Step 2, seq 1: fabulous!! He never seemed to look at the added jump. You had great BC timing, fab send to the wrap n 4, and a lovely serp 5-6-7. YAY!
Step 3, eq 1: accidental off course on backside of 2 possibly as a remnant of the reps of sequence 2 which I think you did before you went to step 3 here. No worries! You can line him up on an angle to get it. The rest was great – he never seemed to look at the tunnel or the added jump.
He missed 6 at 1:14: you were connected but your whole body turned away from the 6 jump. Keep moving towards it until he cue you to leave for 7: Look for him to look at the bar and take a step to it, as your cue to leave for 7.Seq 2 –
Nice backsides!! WOWZA! The contact was just a little too close 🙂 but the rest looked great!This is where we saw that pesky bar drop at :13 and :51 because of praise/decel/ball drop as he was lifting off. That seemed to set the tone for the rest of it, anytime you disconnected or moved an arm on that jump, he thought it was ball time LOL!
Step 2, seq 2:
He took the bar at 2 on the first rep but sorted it out on the 2nd rep – I think he just needed a refresher on the jumping form as you get way ahead. Good bo for sorting it out!
One more step was needed at 4 – wait til you see front feet up before you leave. We will be talking about how the dogs will cue us to go to the next spot, and facing the send line til he lifts his front feet will probably be his cue to you on sends 🙂At :15 there was a bar down on 6, probably because of how you turned your shoulders and he thought you tossed the ball.
Step 3 seq 2 : this is where I think the processing of the added obstacles made things harder for him – he didn’t go off course, but he had a harder time with jumping mechanics! The visual distractions can definitely cause that, so he just needs more experience and exposure to these challenges.
And, you can help with massive connection – you had a disconntection at :12 then a big arm drop at :14, for example, and both bar came down.
Seq 3 – he is doing such a great job of NOT looking at the off course obstacles!!!
There was a bar down at 2 on blind not he first rep. It was a good blind! So I think out was a processing question from him, how to process the added obstacles and jumping forward as you were moving fast. The FC on next rep worked better for sure! And more processing questions on 4 (:09) and 2nd to last bar. Sure, you can be ultra connected and extra sure to not drop your arm – that will help! – but also just letting him see this type of cause with the obstacles nearby will help him process his jumping form with the visual distractions nearby too.Great job on these! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
Great job on these, they are looking great!
3 main things I was seeing on these pop outs:* He is doing really well with his jump- tunnel discrims! Handling + verbal , and he is making it look easy. YAY!
* I think you can do more spins to set up turns rather than rotate towards him. That will set great turns and help him ignore off course lines. More below on that!
* If there is an error – rather than stop and reward, just keep going like it was correct (fix it on the next rep). That will help you think on your feet to recover from bobbles, and also it will help maintain a lot of flow – both of which are useful are trials.Pop Out 1:
>>So I numbered this course wrong, #4 isn’t correct. >>
No worries, I think you made it harder LOL!!
Nice send to tunnel 2! Try to keep moving and sending, so you can blind the exit – he had a question there when you picked him up on your left for the RC.
If you do blind (or FC like you did on the 2nd rep) you found out with the off course that you will need to put a turn cue on 4 because the shoulders turn does indeed open up the off course (:37). I think a spin there will be better because it keeps you moving and gets the turn. And if he goes off course, no worries, keep going! It is great rehearsal for thinking on your feet 🙂
Layering worked beautifully at the end!
Pop out 2: I can see his argument for the off course at :08 – you were facing it as he was landing rom jump 4 (keep going) 🙂 You worked out nicely that a spin will work – you did a gorgeous one at 1:07 – otherwise you have to rotate towards him then away and that is too much work when you can be running to the next spot. Think of the spin as a Front Cross-then-Blind-Cross combo and you will nail it each time.
>>I think I successfully completed my first spin???? I don’t think I’ve ever really done those before. He seem to read it really nicely.>>
WHAT?!?!?! You are a spin savant! That one was gorgeous!
Pop out 3: You can add a small turn cue on jump 2 , like a name call or left verbal along with a brake arm (opposite arm as a ‘whoa!’ arm) or a tiny bit of decel, as he is approaching it, so he can tighten the line and not look at the off course. The rest looked great, especially that really nice blind on the backside to get the last tunnel!! Wowza!
Pop Out 4: Super nice, both times!! Loved the blind in the opening Great send into the jump after the blind to get a lovely turn too! That set up the ending line really nicely.
Great job on these!!
TracyHi!
>>ou were using
“back” for the backside slice. Do you use a different verbal for backside wrap? >>Yes- 2 entirely different behaviors, so we have 2 separate verbals 🙂 “Back” is my backside slice cue and “digdigdig” is my backside wrap cue.
>>Also, if I didn’t want to use “back” for the backside slice is there other cues that you’ve used?>>
Other verbals I heave heard used there effectively have been “push” and “pass” and “around”. Let me know which one you choose!
Tracy
Hi!
On the head turns, there is a definite hand flip – my palm starts facing up (as if offering a cookie to the pup) then as I turn the head away, my palm ends up facing down. And yes, you might see the dogs raise their head (especially my bigger merle dog) – this is the dog sorting out the mechanics and probably a bit of “this is WEIRD” too LOL!! But that goes away as we build on this and as we continue to throw the reward on the ground.
Tracy
Hi!
Can I just say that I love that your house has the puppy training stuff stashed in different corners? I am glad I am not the only one LOL!
I totally feel your pain about the head course builder thing!!! I am head course builder at a big event in November each year and it is all-consuming and exhausting!
>>This was met with a bit of a disaster. >>
Definitely NOT a disaster!!! Not quite the full behavior – sure! And great info from the dog – yes! But definitely not a disaster. She got lots of rewards, you got lots of hind end movement even if it was not quite over the bar.
One thing the neuroscience people tell us is that learning is happening in. The direction that we want, even if we don’t see the behavior expressed right away. Then latent learning takes over, sleep consolidates it – then BOOM! It appears pretty soon. This keep me sane during puppy training LOL!!!
She definitely thought that stepping over the pole was ewwwwwwww LOL!!!
It is possible that this style of perch work is a bit too new, or the poles are daunting. You can try just one pole on the ground and also maybe on the turf at the training building or on a big carpet – she isn’t moving fast but she might still find the floor needs to be more grippy so she can ‘trust’ her back feet and balance here.
Young dogs have a LOT of processing to do when we work the mechanics stuff, so in a couple of days you can refresh the perch work with the poles for a minute or so. If she is moving back and forth, add one pole and see how it goes!
Keep me posted – you are on the right track :) Tracy
Hi!
>>Some truth in that as feel more pressure when filming esp when dong for class (but helps make more trial like).>
Good insight! So you can try this:
Run the sequence 1 time without the camera on (no pressure) then run it 1 time WITH the camera on (pressure!!!)>>1 question I do alot of sending, layering and leaving in the ring because she is fast and this is also natural for her – I wonder if this makes it harder for her to read when I want her to stay closer or turn with me (especially when I am late or unclear )>>
It is entirely possible she still needs to learn how to transition from BIG distance back to handler focus/tight turns then back to distance. She is still young and inexperienced, and most dogs things that layering is very stimulating 🙂
I think you will like the sequences posted today, because they are specifically about layering/distance then tight handling then back to layering/distance.
Have fun!
TracyHi! Sorry for the delay, it has been an insane 24 hours of travel!
The lazy game is looking really good!
One thing I notice here is how easily she goes back and forth from food to the toy to food – AWESOME!! I love it! She was also finding her jumps really nicely.
While she is eating, you should keep strolling (you were stopping a bit :)) The stopping made it harder to get the next jump.
>>was using sliced cheese stick for the lazy game but she still losing them in the grass so it wasn’t very smooth. >>
Her response time for finding the food was not too bad at all! If you keep moving, I bet she finds it even faster. And when you get to doing all 3 in a row, you can throw the toy 🙂
Looking at the mountain timber game: she was really good on the first rep when you went with her – then gave a big NOPE when you tried to have her run to you. So you did the 100% correct thing to go help her.
>>She was a little worried about the seesaw. >>
Yes – going all the way up is definitely challenging! But she was not freaked out and happy to do it as long as you were with her. She will get it sorted out – partially she needs to know the mechanics of getting the reward, and partially she needs more experience. If she really hated it, she would not stick around for a full session and definitely would not try to get on without you LOL! So 3 suggestions:
– do fewer reps in the next session (2 reps!) for a massive reward – then go do something else. Leave her wanting more!
– on the end of the board that is touching the ground. Have her go on then turn around then walk off, so she can get used to turning around (so you don’t have to lift her all the time).
– for now, always go with her, and we will come back to you recalling her up the board at a later date. She was getting really confident by the end!Great job!
TracyHi! Sorry for the delay, it has been an insane 24 hours of travel!
She did really well with the challenges here! It was hard to find the jump behind the tunnel AND organize the takeoff – either passing it (a bunch of time or dropping the bar. It is a hard processing challenge for sure! So, that is Josie-speak for training it with a lower bar (like at 12” for a few reps til she has it, then it can start to go back up. She did sort it out a few times, so I know she will be perfectly fine with this 🙂
The layering with you on the other side of the barrier also went well – for the next session, start with RYG 1 (it seems to have not posted at the same time as the others, sorry!!!) which will get her at an even bigger distance on the other side of the tunnel, then come back to this sequence so you can put together the longer sequences here too :) Great job!
TracyHi!
>>I’m a little concerned about the start and if I do a little sling in it’s going to make her question the tunnel. Should I try wrapping a wing before 1?
This is a great idea! You can set up a wing before 1 to do that. And in the other sequences where a random wing might be in the way, you can start with a wrap on 1, putting 1 facing away from the tunnel so she wraps, you do a FC, then you carry on.
T
Hi!
Sorry for the delay, it has been major travel insanity in the last 24 hours!
>>I think the theme of camp for us this year is not course trends but rather, “Stop the barking,” lol.
It is partially that – and more about maintaining flow (quiet flow or noisy flow, but maintaining flow LOL!)
>>When something goes wrong, she very quickly starts barking, spinning, and jumping around in my path. In the example of the weaves, I would not have physically been able to run towards the next jump without tripping on her.
This will be great for thinking on your feet! You can keep running forward if possible, or if not – turn and run the other direction towards an obstacle (so you won’t trip on her). I call that “free styling” LOL!! But it keeps everyone moving and stops the spinning.
It is a bit of a conundrum but the answer will be: keep moving even if it has nothing to do with the course 🙂
For example: My puppy is 100% herding breeds and wants to be very barky and herdy. This is similar to Nox! And he wants to bark/herd the whippet…. But the whippet thinks it is annoying so he just runs. Doesn’t matter which direction – he just runs. So the baby puppy does not have any herding behavior on the other dogs because the ‘target’ (whippet) is constantly moving fast in a direction away from where he wants to herd… so the puppy just runs happily (and quietly). So – you are the whippet in this scenario. Keep going somewhere, doesn’t really matter where 🙂
On the video:
SUPER job on the opening of ALL the runs! You were the whippet (in motion the whole time) and she was working and not frustrated or barking. You were a little late on the BC 2-3 on the 2nd rep at :58 so the bar came down but the rest of the reps were gorgeous.This super job includes includes the blooper on the backside at :27 and 1:38 and 2:21 – but you didn’t bat and eyelash and kept going so she kept going (yes, it was a physical cue that overrode the verbal cue there, as you noted in the video).
To get the backside, keep your left arm back and big eye contact as you run towards the center of the bar. Keep saying the verbal to her directly as you mov e forward on a parallel path to the backside approach. And when you see her look at the backside entry wing – that is your cue to move to 11. You were curling your shoulders away towards the front and looking forward, so she took the front.
The handling blooper there was just that you needed to run directly to the bar – you ran parallel to it, even when you were trying to resend her to it. You did a much nicer running line there on the last run and she got it! On the 11 jump after it – she does’t commit well when you decel AND lift your arm. So, decel but keep moving forward until you see her feet lift up for 11 then you can move to 12.
>>We got stuck at the jump before the teeter a couple of times (:30 is the first time). This is an example of where I couldn’t keep going (teeter entry would have been a problem), but I didn’t know what to do. >>
Turn and run to the tunnel or the jump behind you – do a FC on the flat as if that was TOTALLY the plan and then take off the other way 🙂
The rear cross was lovely there!!!! Worked like a charm. You ran directly to the bar and that really helped. On the 2nd rep, you got a little ahead and turned your shoulders so she had a question there (2:28). The successful rear crosses had a lot more acceleration. I am seeing a pattern: if you decel AND put your arm up, she pulls off. So it can be one or the other, but not both 🙂
You did a bit of a reset there that you can also be useful in those situations: you can turn in a complete 360 (like shadow handling) and then step to the jump: that can be a useful stay-in-flow moment too!
Then after the teeter, you ran straight towards the jump even though you said the tunnel, so she took the jump (that was a left response :)). You froze for a heartbeat… then you were the whippet and just took off running 🙂 Perfect! She barked but got right back to work.
On the second run, you handled in a big circle to a random jump and rewarded – also perfect 🙂
Nice job getting the early shoulder turn to the tunnel at 2:39! She had a question on the 2nd to last jump but you did a great job of staying in motion. In that spot on the very last run, you had acceleration and a lot of connection and she nailed it.
>>My major win for these reps: I didn’t stop when she hit the front side of a jump (3 times, lol, oops…) and missed the tunnel after the teeter thanks to my forward drive!!>>
Correct! I thought the whole session was GREAT!!! Let me know what you think of the ideas about how to stay in motion in the blooper moments 🙂 Lovely job!
TracyHi!
Nice job with your mechanics here – she is really getting the idea to zip in and out for the threadle!!>>t’s easier for me to get the next treat while she’s eating the reward. Hope that’s ok.>>
I think it worked here at the beginning but as she got faster and faster, she had to wait a longer time (had a little bark at the end too!) So for the next session, try wearing a treat pouch or have treats in a pocket, so that you can get the treat out while she is at the MM, and without having to leave your position.
>>Again we’re both better with her turning right.
>>On the 2nd video where she is turning left, I am not sure that she could see your arm “outside” the wing of the jump (you were a bit more towards the center of the bar ) so be sure she can see your arm out past the wing.
>>So, I’m consciously trying to chatter less, be clear with Ready at the beginning, then praise with the reward.
>>You were great!!
Time to add a threadle verbal now too on the angles you did here – after she eats the cookie and lifts her head, add your threadle slice verbal ( I use “close close close” and a lot of people use “in in in”
>>And I meant to edit out the F bomb, but forgot. Oops. >>
I thought you left it in on purpose for the chuckle! LOL!!! F bombs are an important part of puppy training LOL!!
Great job on these. Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
Backside slices – looking good too! Your mechanics are really getting sooooo good! The transition from the toy to the cookie toss is great: cookie on the nose, show it to her, toss it, start moving: super clear and she was super successful. And she went back and forth between food and toys like a pro!!!The good side looked really good, and so did the “not good” side LOL! I guess now you have two good sides. Note how on each side you were able to get further away from the barrel and she still was able to stay on her path to the backside. SUPER!!!
>>The left turn does seem to be harder for her to turn away from me. Perhaps I should jackpot her on that side?>>
No need for a jackpot – that might end up confusing her when the other side doesn’t get the jackpot. Just keep doing what you are doing and the sides will continue to balance.
>>At what point do you put a word to these?
We add it now 🙂
What is your backside slice verbal? Time to add it while you are moving up the line – so the next session can be the exact same as you had here, but with you quietly saying the backside verbal.
Great job!
Tracy
