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October 27, 2022 at 9:16 am in reply to: π Cindi and Ripley (Border Collie – 19 months old) π #42125
Tracy Sklenar
KeymasterGood morning! Congrats on your UKI success! Now that the West Coast Open was a big success, I bet you start to see more and more UKI in your area.
>>Weβre also trying to work in some startline leash on/off and end of run leash on here and there>>
I worked a TON of leash on/leash off with Contraband before he started trialing and at the beginning of his trialing, including in high arousal – it is a pretty important part of things an da great area of focus. I have found it MUCH easier if the dog also likes to tug on his leash – Contraband does not like to tug on his leash, maybe Ripley does?
Looking at the videos:
He is doing well with the organizer in front of the jump. The hardest part for him might’ve been going past the MM for the wing wrap LOL! The sits on the organizer were really strong and he was wrapping well! With that in mind, we can add more to this:Using the exact same setup: You can incorporate tugging before and after, to ask the question “can you organize even when you are more stimulated?” I bet he can, so we can gradually ramp up the excitement using toys, and eventually toys will replace food.
We can add a bit more motion challenge by having you rotate through the FC of the wrap, as he is organizing for the sit. You would go to the wing, decel, rotate for a FC as he is getting onto the plank and moving into the sit, then release him to take the jump (move very slowly at first because this might be hard π And remember in this game, always stay on takeoff side of the wing because that is what cues the collection (going to landing side would cue a different takeoff point (extension versus collection).
He is stepping into the zig zags beuatifully! He is a little “head up” over jump 2, perhaps because he likes you better than the MM π We can solvethat by having a toy out there – either something big for him to scoop up, or placing it on top of the MM or a platform of some sort. And you can definitely go to the moving target toy drag when the angles are a little more open.
It was actually a chuckle that you were trying to get him to bounce by moving the wings closer/overlapping more, and he was figuring out how to add a smaller stride in there LOL!! I think the answer for him would be to keep the distance the same but open the angle a bit.
He did start to figure it out after 1:30 approx and went back to bouncing, but I think the wings end-to-end will be a better distance for him when the bars get taller. Start with the comfy angle then very gradually flatten it – if he adds a stride, open it up the tiniest bit.
With the MM or a ‘dead’ toy as the target, you can also begin to move (walking forward after you release). Thsi should also help him look at the stationary reward target moe and at you less. With the moving target, your motion is built in and so if the forward focus for the dogs, which is why we can move him to the moving target pretty quickly π
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyTracy Sklenar
KeymasterGood morning!
The backside zig zags are looking good! He definitely has no trouble with this setup and the harder angles.
>> think he ticked the jump standard foot.
I tried to see it in super slow motion but alas, too much floof haha! The deeper sound of the tick does make me think it is the jump foot not the bar (bar ticks are higher in pitch).
>> I am planning on going back to flattening out the 2-jumps on Thursday. With a UKI trial this weekend, I have 1 or 2 more opportunities next week before I hit the road on Sunday morning (Nov 6). Should I keep the bars down at 4in and just keep flattening the 2 jumps?>>
Gearing up for leaving for the Open, a couple of ideas:
leave the angles where you left them here, they are plenty flat for our purposes. Instead, we can focus on 2 elements in the next sessions:– low bars, you running π Wheeee! On the front side reps, you can be dragging the moving target. On the backside reps, you can add more of your speed and leave the PT out there. If he is fine with that, maybe switch out the PT for the Nemo ball?
– higher bars, but without the running. You can raise the bars a bit but dont add motion yet. Try to see if you can get them to 8 inches or maybe 10!
I bet you can do a bit of both in the same session:
1 rep, low bars, you running
2 reps, higher bar, you walking (bar can be 6 inches then 8 inches on these 2 reps)
then 2 more reps of low bar, you runningIf I am wrong and Kaladin thinks it is too hard, you can totally dial it back to one or the other, not both π
If it is all SUPER easy without over-working him, you can add running to the higher bars but that is a lower priority for now.
The organizers were definitely fun to watch, he had a lot to sort out – most of it involving using his hind end to jump sideways LOL! But he did sort it out and the last reps were really strong!
>>had a lot more comic relief than his Zig Zag work. Bar is at 6in. After the first rep I watched your video again and realized I was on the wrong side. >>
I know the exercise has you on the landing side, but being on the takeoff side is also a slice jump so it was all good π
>>Then I said sit too soon so he sat before the plankβ¦. >>
Ha! He is so literal, always has been LOL! I believe I was saying “hop it up” to a couple of my dogs to tell them to get on the plank, so I didn’t have any sitting before the plank so feel free to add that type of ‘get on the thing’ cue π
>>then too late and he ran right through and over the bar.>>
He wasn’t wrong about that LOL And he clearly had watched the videos about fading the organizer plank π
>>Is he supposed to be putting his front feet down off the plank on the takeoff side before slicing over the jump?
Ideally, no, we don’t want feet on the ground at all til they land. Dogs sometimes do it to sort out how to use the hind end, and I think that is what he was doing when he put his front feet down off the plank before takeoff. But then by the end like at 1:27 and 1:39, he was great about NOT tapping his front feet (he was pushing more from the rear on those reps, which is what we want.
>> I think I saw that happening in your demo video, but he preferred to go from plank straight to over the jump.
In the early sorting stages, they might do it a little- I moved the plank closer to there was no room to d it π And you can practice the release with the wing only (no bar) as the warm up to remind him to use his booty.
>> I was going to go back to the front side wrap with a bit more of my motion on Thursday>>
Perfect! Keep me posted! great job here!
TracyTracy Sklenar
KeymasterHi!
It sounds like you had a great USDAA weekend!!!!Nice session here!! He has the idea of bouncing on these zig zags and seems pretty balanced in both directions (maybe right-to-left is stronger than left-to-right, or maybe I need more coffee? He is pretty balanced), so now we can start to make things even more exciting π
The first thing I want to see if we can get him to do is to take off from his sit and NOT tap his front feet before the bar. It might be too hard with the feet of the jump (he is small!) but you can try moving him over so he is almost touching the wing. No worries if that is too weird for him, it is harder with the smalls to get them to do it because of the jump feet.
The next thing would be to tighten the angles with the stationary reward target (like you had here) for a session or two… and then open the angles back up to where they are in this video and go to the moving target, followed by closing the angles again. I think he will figure it out really quickly!
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyTracy Sklenar
KeymasterGood morning!
Looking at the Leading with the head video – oh yeah, he is thinking all good head turn things! By the end, he was looking for treats on the floor so it was not quite as good but I am happy with what he did here π It will be fun to see it translate to the jumps! You can add even more challenge by doing this for a toy – the toy will stimulate him more, so the question becomes: can you still lead with your head, Marshal, even when things are exciting? I mean, food is pretty exciting to him but the toy might be even more exciting π
Distractions:
>>I know I make βdistractionsβ on the course when Iβm running, but itβs almost hard to do purposely do it! LOL>
You were great! The session was exactly what we want it to be: a light-hearted, highly reinforcing way to say to him: Please don’t touch the bar even when I am not perfect π I saw you getting in the way, being late, being wild with your arms – he was great. Since he is so motivated for food and toys, you can add in reaching into your pocket for a cookie or toy right as he is lifting off (that is a hard one for the dogs to remember their jumping while seeing LOL!)
Plank to wing video, and wing to plan to wing video:
These are also going well, I love that he is keen to try ALL the games π
>>I also need to take that breath and make sure heβs fully on the plank before rewarding.>>
Yes, both with the wing before or it or just the plank – let him get set into the sit before you move the cookie hand into position. I believe he is waiting for the cookie hand to cue the sit, but we can easily get him to sit on just the verbal (and when he gets into position, you can bring the cookie hand out). That extra moment to take a breath will help balance the sit independently of your movement (eventually you will be moving the whole time).
>. After watching the video I know I need to lower the treat a bit. Too high and it puts him off balance and slips off the plank.>>
Also yes – you will want to feed him with his nose no higher than the top of the wing. Your wing is a perfect size for that – if you feed with his nose in line with the top of the wing, you will have a perfect, balanced position. If his nose and chin are higher than the top of the wing, he gets off balance.
Looking ahead at next steps:
When he will sit on the sit verbal and doesn’t need a hand cue, the next thing you can now add is to NOT feed in position anymore. Instead, release to come around the wing and the reward can be in a reward target like a food bowl on the ‘takeoff’ side of the wing. So the rep would be:
get on the plank – sit – – take a breath to let him fully sit – release to go around the wing – toss a cookie into the reward bowl (or use a Manners Minder, and eventually a toy but that might be too exciting for now). That adds more movement and challenge by asking him to get in and out of the organization even faster.My guess is that he will be doing that in the next session, so you can then add the rest of the jump and the low bar to move to the next step too. Yay!
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyTracy Sklenar
KeymasterGood morning!
It is great that you have this indoor place for winter training! Yay! These sessions looked good!
>>need to focus on placement to keep head down for both of these.
Yes – my suggestions after watching the video were both about reward placement for head position.
On the zig zags: do you have wings to add to the jumps? That will help with clearer visuals for her and also pave the way to the backside game, because backsides will have wings to go around to get to the bar. The left-to-right was easier for her than the right-to-left (that is when she went around jump 2) so you can open the angles a bit when her right shoulder is parallel to the bar, and leave them tight when the left shoulder is parallel to the bar.
She is doing really well, so the main thing now is the toy placement: always have it on the ground, at least 10-12 past the 2nd jump. before you release her to help rehearse the head-down form. When it was in your hand, she was jumping the grid with her head a bit too far up. So do the toy on the ground on all of the reps of the next session – and when that goes well, you can go to the dragging toy (moving target :)) And one more suggestion – don’t face her on the release, face forward like you did at :35 – that will get even more propulsion and facing the dogs tends to cause them to slow down or add strides.
Looking at the leading with the head video – I think that toy might be a little too exciting LOL!!! She was offering a lot of behavior… but not really turning her head. π She was having trouble ignoring it when it was *right there*, so you can add two things to this game:
– using food primarily π
– add in the toy in between food rewards, to get her arousal high so she can still lead with her head when she is pumped up… but after a little tugging, put the toy back in your pocket so she can focus on the task (for a cookie reward).I bet eventually she will be able to do it with the toy in your hand, so the cookie-then-toy can help get her there.
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyTracy Sklenar
KeymasterGood morning!
>>So last week I video tapped a zig zag and thought he seemed off. That was the 3rd time that thought had crossed my head so I took some time off.
That is interesting! Do you have the video? I would love to see it: sometimes there is something “off”, or sometimes the dogs just don’t get it at first and we need to help them with bigger handling cues or a bit of the wire like you did. I used HUGE handling cues to get my dogs to understand it at first, including some foot rotation.
>> I am keeping an eye on him still and he has a massage tomorrow so I will ask her to feel around.>>
Perfect – ask the massage person to take a look at his left hind and see what she feels or how he reacts. I suggest that because he was protecting it a bit – note how he rolled onto it at :26 and was also to a lesser extent at :59. So there might be something that is ouchy?
I think the stay was the hardest part for him LOL! But in this session, he did well sorting out the game. He might have so much value on wrapping wings tha he needed a couple of sessions to sort out what he was supposed to come to your hand. Feel free to use BIG gestures LOL!!! Don’t be subtle π
>>I donβt think I chose the best angle to see his lead changes. Also still not sure he is using his leads correctly.
The angle was good! When the wings are really far apart, it is harder to see his adjustments but when you moved them closer, he was doing a good job of shifting back and forth. If you move them even closer, 4 or 5 feet apart, you will see things even more clearly π
One thing that will help: if the massage person finds nothing ouchy today, you can help him get organized by having him use his sit platform for the stay! That way he will hold his hind end in tight rather than roll on a hip. But wait to see what your massage person says before we do more – definitely keep me posted!!
Nice work here!
TracyTracy Sklenar
KeymasterGood morning!
This is looking really good! I think the hardest part for him was holding the stay LOL! You did a great job with the setup next to the wing and he was strong with the lead changes without the bar, and with the jumping when the bar went in.
Since this looked so good, yes – move to the next steps:
– yes, onwards to the 2 jump game! Since he is young and big, start with the bars at 8 inches so he doesn’t have to think too hard about the height and can focus on all the other pieces. Be sure to have a reward target on the ground so he doesn’t look up at your hands π– as an added challenge, you can also try this flatwork game without a bar, but with the wings 4 feet apart then 3 feet apart. That will add an element of “fast feet” for him, which is always good as we add more speed to all of it π
Great job! Have fun with the next steps!
TracyTracy Sklenar
KeymasterGood morning! This looks really good! Even Dr. Cat seemed to give his approval.
Watching the tiny details, she was tending to move her right hind out a little, so that is something to keep an eye on so we can get it strengthened and balanced. It is a really tiny difference. Definitely keep rewarding, but it is possible that the right hind is not as strong as the left hind (which only moved out once). She did well with the various angles, and with more speed. Yay! You can move to NOT rewarding in position: she gets up, sits, you toss the reward off the plank with a ‘get it’ marker (to one of the angles), lather, rinse, repeat a few times π That adds even more of a plyometric element to it.
She is ready to see the plank work with the wing and jump – you can drag it to class with you, as a warm up tool even fi you don’t get it to the wing (but you can also do it on the wing if there is a warm up jump). Just a couple of reps to warm up, otherwise we risk depleting her for her class runs.
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyTracy Sklenar
KeymasterGood morning!
I am glad he had a successful weekend, especially with lots of birds and no holes π Yay!Lead with the Head is looking good!! Great job with your mechanics and rewarding. This is a good one to keep in your training rotation: he is a powerful, forward dog so the more you reward him to turn his head, the more it will happily blend into his turn skills. You can revisit this came once a week or as a warm up for other sessions – the next time you play, you can back up a bit more so you are 5 or 6 feet from the wing. Cue the wraps like you did, and you can even use as clicker to mark the instant of head turning (which should be easier to see when you are further away and he has to make a very distinct turn back to the wing). Starting further away will also allow you to add more speed into the skill, and mark that very first head turn on approach to the wing.
He was fantastic with the short spacing on the zig zag flatwork wings! 4 feet? No problem. 3 feet? Also no problem. SUPER! Quick feet!
>>A few times he was really looking straight ahead instead of at me, yet he still serped the wings.>>
Yes, he was a good boy! The only thing to add to this game (and the others) is to try not to use a ‘yes’ marker because it causes him to look up at you, which we don’t want in the jumping work. Instead, you can replace it with a ‘get it’ marker to drive to the thrown (or placed) reward. I try to use a get it for these things, even though a ‘yes!’ slips out sometimes LOL!
Zig zags with bars also went really well! He read the line well and that is the most important step. So now, you can make two adjustments to add power:
– line him up parallel to the wing and bar of the first jump, rather than facing the center of the bar of jump 1. So when he is on your left in this setup, for example, his left shoulder will be right next to the wing (and his front feet still relatively close to the bar). This adds the element of powering to the side for these slice jump efforts (on the last rep of the video, he was really getting it and also didn’t tick the bar on that one :))
– add a reward target on the ground, about 10 feet past the 2nd jump. He was looking up a bit at your hand (because, cookies are delicious LOL!). The target on the ground will help lower his head which produces more power in the jumping. At first, you can start with a stationary reward – a bowl of food, or Manners Minder if you have one. Then a stationary toy (something big so he can just scoop it up). If he is still organized with the toy… then we will add the moving target. This might happen all in one session, or in a couple of sessions: let his form guide you as to how quickly you can add challenge π
>>but on the video I hear his nails ticking the bar.
I slowed the video down to try to figure out which foot was ticking, and I believe it was his inside hind leg (right rear on your left, left rear on your right). So because it was not front feet or not the same foot every time, it is an organization/balance/power question and he will figure it out π He was already figuring it out on the last rep.
You can also try this on a 5 foot bar so he has a little more room – it is possible that he was dropping the inside rear because the 4 foot bars didn’t give enough room in this grid. Figuring out the correct distance on this grid needs some experimenting – since he is big and powerful, he might need a 5 foot distance.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyTracy Sklenar
KeymasterHi!
It was a smart idea to begin with some bounce grid reminder work for her! The 3 jump grid you had set up was a bit too small for her current size. The distances between the jumps were more of a cavaletti (trot) distance for her, so you can expand this grid to have a minimum of 4 feet between the jumps, with bars no higher than 8 inches. You will see her really begin to bounce and then you might need to expand to 4.5 feet or 5 feet as she gets more powerful.
I think she is off to a good start in the zig zag reps her – it looks like she went around the 2nd jump on the first rep because of the pressure of you standing in her landing spot. She is able to bounce the distance you had here, which is great! As the angles get flatter, you might find that you need to overlap the wings more to shorten the distance between the jumps a little.
The most important tweak, though, for both the regular bounce grid and the zig zag grid will be to get the reward on the ground and not in your hand, so she is driving forward with her head down. The reward in your hand was pulling her head up, which inverts the jumping form.
So, start with a stationary reward target like a Manners Minder placed 10 feet or so past the 2nd jump. You will lead out to it and stand still, clicking it after you release her and when she is jumping the 1st jump (yes, the first jump, to try to convince her to look down and not up :)) Do that do a few reps, and if she is driving to the reward, you can delay the MM click until she is jumping the 2nd jump.
At some point we will also be going to the moving target, but that will be after she has experience powering through to the stationary target.
Nice work here! Let me know what you think!
TracyTracy Sklenar
KeymasterGood morning!
His pounce on the lotus ball was adorable on the first rep! When it was really moving, he was good about not moving properly and not pouncing, especially when you used it on the jump.Since it went so well, you can add it to the zig zags with the 2 jumps! The zig zags are complicated from the dog’s perspective, so use an 8 inch bars as he learns to sort himself out π And since he has a long stride, lead out 10 feet past the 2nd jump and start to move as soon as you release.
>>Consistent desire for toy play is something I definitely need to build with this boy. Some days heβs a tugging fool and then the next day itβs hell no. I donβt want to do that β something I need to figure out>>
I agree that consistent interest in tugging is a helpful thing for training! Have you seen a pattern to it – will he tug at home but not in class? Will he tug when food is around? Also, will he tug more when you throw the toy or drag it for him to chase? A pattern will emerge and then you can get it figured out π
Great job here! Onwards to zig zags!
TracyTracy Sklenar
KeymasterHi!
She is doing well on these! It is a challenging skill and se is sorting it out nicely!!! I like her head position and also that she is NOT taking any extra strides anywhere.>>Sheβs landing really close to the first jump and while sheβs bouncing, it doesnβt seem well-centered. Does that matter?>>
Yes, and no LOL!! She is learning to power off her rear, so she might take a slightly different landing spot on jump 1 and it is fine. Also, you can change a couple of small details to help her power more:
– move her start position further back, so she shoulder is right next to the wing, more like where she was at :06 (her other starting positions were a bit too far forward).You can go to the moving target reward, so the toy will end up being further from her landing point and you will be facing forward & moving forward.
You can also overlap the wings by another 6 inches but I think we don’t need to do that yet – I bet she sorts it out as the toy starts moving and the angles flatten a bit more too π
Let me know how she does in the next session! Then we can add even more challenge π
Great job!
TracyTracy Sklenar
KeymasterOMG Pneumonia! That is definitely NOT slacking! I am glad you are feeling better!
He has figured out the line for the zig zags very nicely! Now, we need a target on the ground to get his head down that he will look at – when your arm is up, he is looking up and that inverts his jumping form. You did have a target… but he wasn’t targeting to it LOL! So either leave it open so he can just grab the treat from it, or use a toy or something he will want to drive to without looking at you. That will take his form to a whole new level π
>> I tried one with me moving and he did drop the bar so we stopped.>>
As you add moving, especially the moving target, lower the bars to 6 or 8 inches so he doesn’t need to think about height at all for now. An 8 inch bar will allow him to focus on form and then we can move the bars up.
Lead with the head: This is going better than you are giving yourself credit for! Your hands are correct (sending and turning away with the same hand, reward with the other).
The one thing you can add is turning him away sooner, so your turn hand is right in front of his nose as he finishes that first wrap, then you can immediately turn him away.In this game, we also want to get his head down (that is the main focus for him: get yer head down, Alta! LOL!). He is looking up, and maybe that is why it feels weird to you. The easiest way to convince him to lower his head is to have you sitting in a chair (or on the ground, but not in the snow :)) Your hands are automatically lower when you are sitting, so he will build the habit of looking down. So try it sitting and feel free to try it with a wing instead of an upright, and see how it foes π
Motion override: he did well with the frisbee – he was a little surprised at first but was able to respond. Yay! Remember that your goal is that you are moving away from him, not towards him, when you ask for the sit, so it might be easier for you to hold the frisbee while you walk forward. That way there is a good visual distraction and you won’t be tempted to turn to face him or move towards him.
Since he loves that frisbee so much… you can use it as a moving target in the zig zags! Tie it to a line and drag it on the flat at first and see how he does, then add it to the zig zags π
he did well with the platform sits here – yes, this is a great platform for him and he was organizing a lot better – some really good tuck sits happening there!!!
The plank was much harder, it is narrow! he was figuring it out though, yay!
>>So much hand watching. We will work on this with the clicker and maybe treats off my body. He canβt even think. It was at the end of the session too. I might have done too much for his boy brain!>>
He looked good on the reps on the videos – were there reps where he was unable to do it? Feel free to include those π I think he is waiting for the hand cue, which is fine to start and then we fade it. This on both the platform and plank here, you can do a session or two of each while you are sitting so he realizes it is “get on the thing and sit” rather than watching your motion or hand cues as much. Yes, you can still give a verbal sit cue and a little hand cue, but it is primarily shaping. Then you can click and toss the treat for the next rep to start. At this stage, I am not concerned about where he is looking so it is fine for him to look at you hand/cookies as long as he is able to get on the thing and sit.
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyTracy Sklenar
KeymasterHi!
Looking at the wraps with the bar: This was a cool session! He totally got the hang of if, it was an easy concept transfer for him. Super!! I don’t know if he wraps better to his right… he certainly wraps differently! He was a little more organized into the sit on the left wraps – but then had to think harder about the push off from the sit for the first few reps but then he was really strong.
He seemed “looser” on the right turn sits – notice how he was shifting his weight onto his left hip, rolling onto it to the point where it was almost sliding off the edge of the plank LOL! So he was lifting from his front more on those rather than pushing from the rear. Why was he doing that? Could be that he was looking at your hands more, could be that he was a bit fatigued because it was the 2nd part of the session, could be he is a little looser on that side.
The next session will give us more info about that – you can make 2 adjustments:
Do the right turns first, because that will let us know if fatigue was a factor (this game is a lot more tiring than it looks!).
And, you can add a food bowl as a target as he comes around the wing, to provide a focal point so he looks at your hands less. It will be interesting to see how those tweaks change things.
Zig zags are looking REALLY strong – big improvements for sure! Good boy! He looked like the almost-flat angles were easy!
>> He does much better when he jumps to his left over the first jump. So that probably his stronger side for this exercise.>>
He did well on both here! And noting that the jumping to the left better here is good to keep track of for future conditioning and handling challenges π
A couple of suggestions to build on with the 2 jumps here:
Change his start position slightly, so he is a bit further back by the wing (his shoulder will be right next to the wing) – he was center of the bar here and that doesn’t give as much room for the power slice as being right next to the wing does.You can also move the reward even further away – make it 15 feet or so from the 2nd jump – and you can add more of your motion now. You can also add the moving target at long as it doesn’t upset his belly.
At some point this week, you can also go to either the 3 jump version of this, or the 2 jump backside version (it is totally your choice!). When you move to those, open the angles back up so the line is easy to see. For the 3 jump version, use your lead out and a moving target. For the backside version, the placed target will work because you won’t be able to send to the backside AND get far enough ahead to drag the moving target π unless you have someone there to help out with it π
Great job!!! Let me know how he does on the next steps.
TracyTracy Sklenar
KeymasterOh no! Poor Street! I am glad he is feeling better.
He is sitting so nicely now! You can really see it on the reps where he is facing the camera – lots of great foot positioning! He definitely had the flow and was beginning to understand that it would be approach, organize, release – only one moment of anticipation LOL!
When you are in the position that faces him, reward then toss a treat back to the camera so he doesn’t loop back round to get on the plank sideways. We want him to be approaching straight to add more speed and challenge to the organization like he did when you were on the ‘takeoff’ side of the wing.
If you train indoors again, you can add a bit more spice to this with toy play between each rep, or exciting tricks for cookies – then back to the organization game. By adding some arousal, we are beginning to transfer his learning to the state of mind he is likely to be in when he is running courses.
I see you have a video of it with the bar below, onwards to those videos!
Great job!
Tracy -
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