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Good morning!
>> Would you please give your opinion on teeter 2o/20 vs 4 feet on end of board. All my other dogs have been 2o/2o but I see people are moving more toward 4 on the board behavior. Fritzi is the smallest and lightest dog I’ve had so not sure if that would factor in ??
Excellent question 🙂 I have always done 2o2o for dogs over 15 lbs, and 4 on for dogs under 15 lbs. About 3 years ago, I started asking the big dog handlers (20 lbs and up) why they were going to the 4on… and there was no clear answer about why they 4on was better. I think the main concern was was that 2o2o was hard on the dog’s shoulders (it is not) and that the dog would be unable to control the board with their front feet on the ground (also, untrue). I think it comes down to how the 2o2o is trained: I train it with a TON of emphasis on weight shift to the rear, and I also specifically teach the dogs how to control the board in that position if it bounces under them (this is MUCH harder to do with with the 4on behavior). I think the 4on handlers feel it is faster and perhaps they don’t want to do all of the obsessing raining that I like to do 🙂
About it being faster… also untrue because the closer the dog gets her center of gravity to the end of the board, the faster the board drops. So the 4on is slower in that regard because the center of gravity is closer to the center of the board. I think what they feel is faster is the dog reaches “criteria” (4on) sooner so they can release sooner… but that presents a separate issue because the 4on criteria is a lot more vague than the 2o2o criteria. And when it is less clear to the dog, it will be slower and will also deteriorate faster (folks with 4on teeter behavior see the dog questioning exactly where to stop, and they end up stopping further from the end if we are even slightly imprecise with criteria maintainable. I totally see that with my 4on dogs (my smallest dog you see in the demos here, and my 2 Papillons). The 2o2o dogs? Well, that is much easier to maintain that behavior 🙂
And about it being faster in the moment of a big competition? I can also quick release or early release my 2o2o in that moment and I still have a very clear behavior to go back to. I did that a whole lot for my 20lb dog – strong 2o2o trained and then fast (or early haha) releases at big events… and he had a great teeter all the way up to his retirement at age 12.
So a great 2o2o requires a few extra games early on but then it gets to be a safe, solid, fast behavior. 4on requires less training up front but more work to maintain it over the years. I am perpetually looking at the 4on behavior with the big dogs to see if there is anything that makes it better/faster/safer and just haven’t really seen that yet.
Let me know what you think!
Tracy
Good morning!
I feel the pain of the hot weather… it has been pre-dawn wake ups here to train just as the sun comes up here (unless I get lazy and don’t train at all haha)I think Fritzi did GREAT here. Most importantly, she was all GAME ON and running hard (but also turning tightly on the wing wraps). Very cool!! Try to reward more often, before things come off the rails haha!
As we build up these games, you can add more acceleration before the tunnels so she exits straighter, making the one step sends smoother (she was looking at you a bit on the tunnel exits).
At :17 as you were sending to the tunnel, yes there was a little connection break but also you can take one more step: you got connection after the wing but never really stepped towards or moved to the tunnel before turning your shoulders away, so she came with you. One or two big steps will set that line smoothly.
The last rep looked really strong – you didn’t have to move much at all, but your connections, verbals (the real verbals, as you noted :)) and the one-step sending was spot on so she was great. When you move a little more on the upcoming games, you will see that she looks at you less on the tunnel exits.
Teeter – I think this is looking really strong! Seems happy! And after arriving at the table and getting her reinforcement, she can jump off the table instead of running down the board. She seems confident enough that we can talk more about end position: Is she going to be a 2o2o or a 4on dog? Based on this session, it looks like you are planning on her being a 4on dog, so you can place the reinforcement right at the end of the teeter before sending her up it (or use a target at the end – I use a strip of duct tape for my 4on dogs). This will give her a focal point as she drives up the board so she will go even faster and look at you less. I have a new game coming soon for dogs that are pretty advanced in their teeter work like she is, so we can apply that to there as well!
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
The video looks really good –
This is exactly where we need it to be to build on today! Perfect! I think the cookie throwing here looked just fine… we only revisit this with tossed treats once more in a slightly different way, then we are done with the lazy game for the most part LOL!!! Great job here and I will see you in a few hours!!
TracyGood morning!
Ah yes, the sending to the middle wing worked better here! And as you mentioned, remember to use your verbals, things were real quiet LOL! And she is very literal in her reading of the handling, so you can start the FC sooner: when she is about halfway between the 1st and 2nd wing, start the FC. When you waited, she stayed on her line and went wild like at :30 (good girl!)
And also remember to connect more on the tunnel exit so she doesn’t ask a question by looking at you – and be in motion more before and after (more below on that).About going behind you – she did it on both sides, actually, but not as obviously on the first side.
Watch the :09 – :12 section in slow motion. You connected for a heartbeat as she came around the middle wing then as she was halfway between the wing and the tunnel, you turned your shoulders forward to the tunnel so it totally looked like a blind cross from her perspective. Compare that to :17-:18 where you kept your dog-side shoulder back and she knew where to go. You waited longer at :26 to turn the shoulder forward so it worked, but generally you will want to avoid turning your shoulder forward in favor of keeping connection all the way through. The same thing happened at :30-:33 and also :37-:40 (closing the shoulder forward too soon so she read the blind). You helped her at :47 by standing still and putting a hand more in her face… but ideally you can keep moving up the line with connection and your shoulder ‘open’ (arm back to her, fingers to her nose) so she can find the new side with no questions while you keep moving.Tunnel exit questions – be sure to show movement before and after the tunnel like at :22 and :36, that got a lovely line to the wing! When you are decelerated, she asks questions – partially because of the decel, and partially because she might be thinking you tossed the toy because the physical picture is the same. So acceleration and a verbal (Go would work in this case) will help her drive to the wing.
Teeter games:
Yes, she did seem to like the pepperoni a bit but it is still a wildcard in terms of whether she will find it reinforcing or not in any given moment – plus it is hard to use a lot of pepperoni because it can be bad on the GI tract.
>> In the past I worked on trying to reinforce the eating with the toy, so it’s not unfamiliar. I just never got her to the point where she was really excited about the food. At least this morning she did actually swallow the pepperoni before I threw the frisbee.>>
Eating treats in the training setting (and building up the value so they are actual reinforcement) is a skill that takes a whole lot of time to train, with a TON of consistency in doing it. I framed it as an operant skill, but the truth is that there is a whole lot of classical conditioning happening too. We are pairing food the environment that she likes and with toys she likes. Yes, there is a contingency on the toy play (eat to get the play) but we are also building the classically conditioned response to food into a YUMMY I LIKE THAT thing.
So with that in mind, to really get it where you want it to be with most types of food, every food delivery should be paired with the toy play. Every single one 🙂 If it is just in one context or one and off… then it won’t work nearly as quickly or as well. But if you build that loop into everything, then you will see a really big shift in value over time and you won’t need to use pepperoni.
As you do this, take a break from the teeter training because we can’t really advance it until we have a better reinforcement strategy in place. You can put the reinforcement strategy in place using easier things that are already somewhat ‘trained’ – like a wing wrap or running through a tunnel. I like to build value for food on things that have movement too, so the dogs are in a more optimized arousal state to begin with and will eat faster. And I do this just before meals so they are a little hungry too! It is totally a worthwhile training endeavor because it will free up so many other training options in the future.
Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning Mary and Queenie!
Her plank work looks good, I love her joyful bounding 🙂 When she is on the plank, she seems very confident and fast. If you have a longer plank, you can use that! And you can also elevate this plank a tiny bit if you have something stable to put under it so it is 2 or 3 inches higher. And also remember to have her stand still and turn around in the middle – a great balance game.
I see what you mean about her loading on from the side sometimes – in this game, it is no a big deal and it helps build up her confidence and balance. And we address loading straight more specifically in the future. One thing you can add, is a visual aid to help her load straight: do you have board jump boards? I figure you might! You can create a little channel with broad jump boards next to the plank on each side and sticking out straight about 8 inches or so, so she has something to line herself up with as she approaches the plank.
I can tell from your shoulder position and her response if you were connected or not 🙂 On that first rep and 2nd rep – she says YES and it looked great!
When you set her up to start again at :22 (after spreading things out a bit, which was perfect) – that is where you looked forward to the wing and not at her, so she didn’t go to the wing. Even on those little sends, looking at her will get her to commit better. Compare the difference to :27 when you were connected and she took the wing. Yay!
She was really picking up speed through the tunnel, so you can move away from the wing wrap faster to meet her at the tunnel exit for the next send to send sooner (at :36 she was waiting for you a bit).
When you bring her to the middle wing at :38 and :51, you can add in sending her more to it (decelerate as she approaches the first wing so you can send and leave for the middle wing). That will get her even more independent and then your cross and be sooner because you won’t have to move to the middle wing as much.
One other place where she could use more connection was at the tunnel exit at :47 and 1:06 – you were looking ahead as she exited so note how she looked at you to figure out what the line was. You can look at her more there and also feel free to send her to the tunnel from further away, so you can get to the tunnel exit sooner to make the connection. She is already speedy!!!!
One thing to start thinking about: verbals! For the wings, you were saying “go around” and also a ‘wrap it’ here and there – and we might want to save the ‘go’ part of it for straight line stuff and only use ‘around’ for wraps. Let me know what you think!
You can keep moving the wings away and sending more and more. As you add more sending, be sure to throw the reward out past the wing more to help convince her to leave you (and the cookies :)) for the wing. Her commitment already looks strong and we will keep expanding on it.
Great job here! Let me know what you think!
TracyGood morning!
>> I was trying to keep the session short due to temps climbing or I would’ve played more with her between reps.
Yes, I have a sinking feeling that we are in for a very hot summer. So, especially because she is a puppy – do fewer reps of the exercises so you can focus on the in-between stuff like the mechanics, the retrieves and play, etc.
She did really well With the more advanced level here – commitment looks great. And it is really fun to see her getting more coordinated, and getting closer to ‘adult’ movement. We will be building on this with the live class today – so this is perfect timing to have the middle jump moving further out. And heck yes, you can keep moving that middle jump further away, and spreading out the 1st and 3rd jumps too 🙂
>> Ahh, it was labelled concept transfer in the list so I figured it worked as you had explained in the guidelines. So the guidelines description is how it will work going forward?>>
Sorry for the confusion! Yes, the labels of the games will generally tell you and I can notate when they are more like skills games. Today’s concept transfers are definitely sequence work so we don’t want to do more than 4 reps on each 🙂
Great job!
TracyHi!
She did well with finding the jumps here! No problem at all 🙂 You can add a couple in a row and start to move the middle jump away to increase distance on her commitment skills.>> Wasn’t sure what constitutes a rep on something like this game so settled on one full pinwheel. So included 1st and lst full piwnheel and one in middle.>>
This is more of a skills session, so the full session can be taped, 2 or 3 minutes is fine. The handling stuff will be more obvious starting tomorrow 🙂
Playing with the toy was certainly reinforcing for her – the hardest part of the lazy game here was the retrieve! She was not quick to bring the toy back, which makes the session less efficient. Two ideas for you to help build the quicker retrieve:
– when she brings it back, take a long time to play with her for real before you take it and ask for more ‘work’. It might have felt like you were playing, but you were actaully asking for the toy back pretty quickly.. so she was taking more time ot bring it back LOL! Play for 5 or 6 seconds, then get it ack and give it to her again… and so on for a few times before taking it away in favor of more ‘work’. That way thereis no accidental negative punishment for bringing the toy back (taking the toy away).– you can also have a 2nd toy as a reward for bring int back. It looks like you had a 2nd toy and t reats, but you didn’t use them as reinforcement for bringing the first toy back. You can totally use a 2nd toy (or food, if she will take it in this context) as the reward for bringing the 1st one back! Then keep alternating through the session.
Great job! Let me know what you think!
TracyHi!
I am glad to see him being sooooo confident with the teeter! Yay! He was running up really nicely! Try to lift him off the side or help him come down so he doesn’t try to send himself back up or fall off the side. That way you won’t have to worry about him running through end position on the bottom either.
Before adding more tip, you can add more speed by having him wrap a wing about 10 feet away, then run up the board. If he is happy with a session on that? Cool beans, you can add the tiniest bit of tip to the teeter – teensy tiny! You want to be sure he barely notices the added tip.Great job on all of these! Let me know what you think! And I love that he is having a good nap 🙂
TracyHi!
He looks super happy zipping back and forth across the plank! Very nice! Wheeee!
Now the next steps are to have you move back and forth while he is dong this. If that goes well, the next step is to toss the treat off at an angle (not straight like you did here) so he returns to the board and lines himself up to get on when presented with angled approaches. And remember to have him jump on and turn around in the middle of board too 🙂
Onwards to the teeter!Hi!
His commitment is looking lovely here too! This is the only place you can toss treats now in the handling games – no more treat tossing in handling, we need to go to toys and lotus balls and engagement 🙂He is looking at you a bit because the treat tosses are a little late – toss them hen he is on the way to the jump and not when he is over it, so the treats land before he looks back at you. a ‘get it’ marker will also help, so he knows where to look.
Your setup is a bit funky here LOL! It should be more of a pinwheel, or a W shape with the sides of the W pretty flat. Having it set as a pinwheel like that will allow you to move the middle jump further away to continue expanding his commitment.
Onwards to planks!Tracy
Hi! His commitment looks lovely here!
And yes, I would say you are late 🙂 on the first couple – he was fully exited then you sent. But you got earlier and more connected: starting at :44, the info was good- you were very connected and you were starting the send as soon as he exited the tunnel, his head was barely out – so his line to the wing was very smooth! Same for :56 and 1:00 and 1:03 and the rest of the reps!A couple of suggestions about the reinforcement:
At this point, no more just chucking treats into the grass 🙂 He doesn’t see them that well (and ends up looking at you or at the grass), they don’t provide any engagement, and I don’t want him to get confused. Instead, use a marker and a tug toy! Or a lotus ball (but ideally a toy to get more engagement)! Being engaging with the reinforcement rather than just chucking a treat.Also, have the toy or lotus ball in your hand and don’t switch it from hand to hand: you were switching treats here from hand to hand, and it delayed your handling info a bit and confuses him as to wher to look. An example of this is at 1:24 when he stopped looking at the wing and started looking at the grass – you had done some tossed treats and you were moving the treats from hand to hand, so it was valid of him to ask if you threw a treat there or not. That send arm and the treat oss move look pretty identical, so it is confusing! I think the same happenedat 1:36 when he barked at you – a bit of confusion and frustration about placement of reinforcement. so, make it clearer with the excitement and engagement of a toy!
Onwards to the next video 🙂
THello and welcome!! 1 year old already – time flies! I am excited to see his next moves 🙂 See ya tomorrow!
TracyHooray! Welcome back!
And yes, the baby dog concepts transfer soooooo quickly – it is very fun to see the pups grow up and apply their skills to courses 🙂I am looking forward to seeing more! Have fun!
Tracy
Good morning!
Ouch, broken rib! Yes, this is a perfect game then 🙂 He did perfectly well with it too, he was happy to find all the jumps even when you moved that middle one further away. This was especially good towards the end of the session because he had to find the middle jump AND set up the turn properly, so he was basically sorting out the collection there too without much help at all.
He was a little smoother with that turning to his right than his left, but I think he will sort out the left turning in the next session or so. We build on this starting tomorrow 🙂 You can also do this with a toy tossed and retrieved (tugging is probably off the table for now with a broken rib anyway) – holding the toy makes this game harder for many dogs, so it is a nice (and lazy :)) way to get them looking for lines when they are more stimulated and there is something bigger (toy!) to look at 🙂Great job! Let me know what you think!
Tracy
